China Took His City. And Now His Father.

Summary

---

The Daily (The New York Times)

Episode Title: China Took His City. And Now His Father.
Air Date: February 27, 2026
Host: Michael Barbaro
Guest: Sebastian Lai (son of Jimmy Lai)

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the recent sentencing of pro-democracy media tycoon Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong under China's National Security Law. Through an emotionally charged conversation with his son, Sebastian Lai, the episode examines the collapse of Hong Kong’s democracy movement, the personal cost of resistance, and the evolving identity of the city. It is both a family story and a stark account of political repression, with global implications.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jimmy Lai’s Sentencing and Its Emotional Toll

• Background: Jimmy Lai, prominent Hong Kong media tycoon and founder of Apple Daily, was sentenced to 20 years for national security crimes.
• Context: The sentence is effectively a life sentence for Lai, now in his late 70s, whose health has seriously deteriorated due to harsh prison conditions.
  • Sebastian Lai (03:27): “By the time he gets out, if he does, he'll be 98. …I don't know if he could even serve 1/10 of that sentence.”
  • Sebastian Lai (03:52): “His nails are falling off, he's got heart problems. …If you put a man of that age in a 60 sq ft cell in solitary confinement...even 100 days, the likelihood of that person surviving is not high. And he's been in there for 1,800 days and more.”
• Resilience: Despite persecution, Jimmy managed to “flash a smile” at sentencing, signaling defiance and indomitable spirit.
  • Sebastian Lai (04:24): “He even managed to flash a smile… to tell his captors that he's still fighting…they have not shackled his soul.”

2. Jimmy Lai’s Life Journey and Values

• Early hardships: Born in mainland China, lived through famine, and fled to Hong Kong as a young stowaway after receiving a piece of chocolate from a traveler — a “luxury” he’d never known.
  • Jimmy Lai (06:19): “I said, Hong Kong must be heaven.”
  • Sebastian Lai (06:49): “When he first landed in Hong Kong…he broke down crying…because even though he had nothing, at least he had freedom and a future.”
• Rise to prominence: Built a business empire, started as a clothing manufacturer (Giordano), then founded a major newspaper (Apple Daily), becoming a leading pro-democracy voice, despite being labeled an agitator by Beijing.
  • Sebastian Lai (08:03): “All the memories I have are very happy memories…he was a very good father, also a very colorful personality.”

3. Father-Son Relationship & Family Impact

• Sebastian on Jimmy as father: Warm, adventurous, and rebellious — illustrated by a story of briefly owning a bear.
  • Sebastian Lai (08:27): “We used to have a brown bear at home…that does suggest a certain adventurousness…he’s still a real rebel at heart.”
• On freedom and sacrifice: Jimmy shielded his children from his activism, knowing its risks and sacrifices, but his example left a deep impression.
  • Sebastian Lai (12:10): “He knew that this was his fight…he knew the tremendous sacrifice.”

4. Hong Kong’s Changing Identity & Collapse of Protest Movement

• Personal nostalgia: Dim sum, thriving street life, and press freedom — now memories.
  • Sebastian Lai (09:31): “A lot of his favorite places were restaurants…very local, very simple dishes…”
• Cultural evolution: The city’s unique blend of Eastern heritage and Western freedoms steadily eroded.
  • Sebastian Lai (10:07): “Hong Kong…had Western values: free press, freedom of expression, very strong rule of law…one of the freest cities in that part of the world.”
• Pro-democracy protests (2014 and 2019): Tiananmen echoes—a turning point when hope dimmed and state repression intensified.
  • Sebastian Lai (17:20): “For me, at least it was 2014 during the umbrella protest.”
  • Sebastian Lai (18:20): “No, I don’t think it was something that he needed encouraging…you felt like you were part of something bigger than yourself.”

5. National Security Law and Its Consequences

• Targeted repression: The security law essentially written with Jimmy Lai in mind; a “broken social contract.”
  • Sebastian Lai (20:16): “The phrase I’ll use is kind of overzealousness…there was a kind of a social contract that was broken between the people of Hong Kong and the police.”
  • Sebastian Lai (21:01): “It was kind of, you know, almost tailor made for him, so to speak.”
• Family’s sense of loss and survivor’s guilt:
  • Sebastian Lai (24:53): “I haven’t seen him in five years…haven’t been able to tell him in person how much I miss him, how proud I am of him.”

6. Life in Exile and Ongoing Advocacy

• Exiled for safety: Sebastian remains abroad, continuing the fight for his father’s release by advocating internationally.
  • Sebastian Lai (24:38): “When I first heard that he was arrested, I wanted to do all I can to free my father. And it’s heartbreaking.”
  • Sebastian Lai (25:14): “At least by doing what I’m doing now, there’s a chance of seeing him again…as a free man.”
• Contact in prison: Letters back and forth; Jimmy’s focus on faith and art sustains him.
  • Sebastian Lai (26:34): “A lot of it is reading, and a lot of it is drawing these kind of religious drawings. He’s a very strong Catholic…that’s his way of being in touch with his faith.”

7. Legacy, Hope, and Martyrdom

• Jimmy as a symbol of resistance: China aims to make protesting futile by crushing its most prominent advocate.
  • Interviewer (28:53): “What China accomplishes by doing what they’re doing to your father is telling everyone in Hong Kong that protest is futile…”
  • Sebastian Lai (29:19): “He’s already been there for five years…They’ve already destroyed his health…all they’re doing now is making him into a martyr.”
• Reflection on Hong Kong’s future:
  • Sebastian Lai (30:40): “One has to ask, what is the difference between Hong Kong and any other city in China?…Many people would argue that there isn’t.”
  • Sebastian Lai (31:36): “I think it’s always in people’s hearts…maybe the Hong Kong that dad and many people fought for is now oppressed…but I hope it’s not gone.”

8. Generational Loss and Memory

• Disrupted family rituals: Unable to start his own family life in Hong Kong as planned; his daughter has never met her grandfather.
  • Sebastian Lai (33:01): “Yeah, yeah, I’ve got one. She turned 2 recently, so she’s never met my father before.”
  • Sebastian Lai (33:26): “He misses her without having ever met her.”
• Passing on hope: Despite separation, Sebastian is determined that his child will know and be proud of her grandfather’s legacy.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:27] Sebastian Lai: “By the time he gets out, if he does, he’ll be 98. Given the health conditions ... I don’t know if he could even serve 1/10 of that sentence.”
• [04:24] Sebastian Lai: “Even though they've shackled his body, attempt to break it, they have not shackled his soul.”
• [06:19] Jimmy Lai: “I said, Hong Kong must be heaven.”
• [14:30] Sebastian Lai: “He could have had personal freedom…But despite that, he said, actually I can’t just be a person who lives for my own pleasure.”
• [18:20] Sebastian Lai: “You felt like you were part of something that was bigger than yourself.”
• [21:01] Sebastian Lai: “It was kind of like, you know, almost tailor made for him.”
• [29:19] Sebastian Lai: “They’ve already destroyed his health, they’ve already taken everything away from him. All they’re doing now is making him into a martyr.”
• [31:36] Sebastian Lai: “Maybe the Hong Kong that dad and many people fought for is now oppressed. But…I hope it’s not gone.”
• [33:01] Sebastian Lai: “She turned 2 recently, so she's never met my father before.”
• [33:26] Sebastian Lai: “He misses her without having ever met her.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:17 – 04:59: Sebastian Lai details sentencing, his father’s health and resilience.
• 06:03 – 07:18: Stories of Jimmy Lai’s escape from China, arrival in Hong Kong, and early gratitude for freedom.
• 09:31 – 10:45: The importance of food, family, and Hong Kong’s unique culture.
• 12:05 – 13:27: Parental philosophy — Jimmy’s intent not to pass the burden of activism to his children.
• 17:20 – 18:54: 2014 and 2019 protests; Sebastian and Jimmy’s involvement; rising state brutality.
• 20:16 – 21:09: The National Security Law and the realization that Jimmy was a key target.
• 24:06 – 25:14: Sebastian contemplates risks and emotions around going back to Hong Kong.
• 26:34 – 27:12: On correspondence with Jimmy in prison and how faith sustains him.
• 29:19 – 31:36: Reflections on martyrdom, the effect of Lai’s imprisonment, and Hong Kong’s future as “just another city in China.”
• 33:01 – 33:26: The next generation—Jimmy’s granddaughter who has never met him.

---

Conclusion

The episode closes with Sebastian Lai’s hope for freedom, against a backdrop of devastating loss — not just personal, but civic. While Hong Kong’s pro-democracy movement has been crushed and the city’s special status essentially erased, Jimmy Lai’s sacrifice has not gone unnoticed. The podcast serves as both a tribute to a man of principle and a lament for a city transformed.

---

For listeners:
This episode is a sobering reminder of the fragile nature of freedom, the high price of dissent, and the enduring power of personal conviction — all framed through a deeply personal, generational lens.

Transcript

[VIZ Commercial Narrator]

Struggling to see up close. Make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using viz eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn [e-mail]

[Sebastian Lai]

do you hear the people sing, singing the song of angry.

[Michael Barbaro]

Welcome to the New York Times. I'm Michael Barbaro. This is the daily. The pro democracy movement in Hong Kong brought hundreds of thousands of people out into the streets in 2019. They demanded democracy and that China uphold the freedoms it had promised when it took back the British colony in the late 1990s.

[Sebastian Lai]

For the first time since Beijing imposed a new security law on Hong Kong,

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

police have carried out dozens of arrests and used water cannon and tear gas against protesters.

[Michael Barbaro]

China responded by arresting thousands of protesters, including the leaders of the movement, like a man named Jimmy Lai. For decades, Lai had used his wealth and his newspaper to campaign for democracy. He was a constant thorn in the side of Beijing.

[Jimmy Lai]

If I knew that I would be, you know, end up like this and in prison, would I have changed the way I run my life? And I realized that, no, I won't.

[Michael Barbaro]

We interviewed Lai on the show in 2020, just after he was arrested.

[Jimmy Lai]

Because I've never did anything before intentionally, just naturally. So it must be my character now. If it's my character, it's my destiny. It's my destiny. It's God's grace and blessing. So I was all relief.

[Michael Barbaro]

He was later found guilty of national security crimes. And earlier this month, after five years of waiting behind bars, Jimmy Lai was summoned for his sentencing hearing. And when he arrived at the courthouse, Jim, what became clear is that the movement he once helped lead had now become a shell of itself. A small group of pro democracy demonstrators had gathered outside, their faces hidden by scarves and masks for fear of being identified. They, like Lai himself, were waiting to learn his sentence.

[Sebastian Lai]

The heavy, very heavy sentence, you know, almost comically heavy sentence was expected.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

20 years.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, 20 years for his age. That's basically a life sentence.

[Michael Barbaro]

Jimmy Lai's son Sebastian was also waiting.

[Sebastian Lai]

I mean, by the time he gets out, if he does, he'll be 98. Given the health conditions that he's in and given the conditions that he's been kept in, I don't know if he could even serve 1/10 of of that sentence.

[Michael Barbaro]

He spent years trying to free his father and learned the news of his sentence from Thousands of miles away in

[Sebastian Lai]

Paris, his health has deteriorated massively over the last five years. His nails are falling off, he's got heart problems. I mean, look, everybody knows someone around his age, late 70s, early 80s. And if you put a man of that age in a 60 sq ft cell in solid confinement the whole time, even if you did that for someone for 100 days, the likelihood of that person surviving is not high. And he's been in there for 1,800 days and more.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Wow. You know that number very well.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, yeah, unfortunately I do. But there was a little moment that gave me some courage. It was when the sentence was announced and report from court said that he even managed to flash a smile almost to tell his captors that he's still fighting, that even though they've shackled his body, attempt to break it, they have not shackled his soul. And I think his spirit is only being made stronger by his persecution.

[Michael Barbaro]

Today we speak with Sebastian Lai a about his father's sentence, what it means for the pro democracy movement, and where Hong Kong goes from here. It's Friday, February 27th.

[Jimmy Lai]

Have some coffee and breakfast.

[Producer / Podcast Staff]

That's it.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

So five years ago, we, Sebastian, made an episode about your father around the time when he was first arrested. And so many of the details from that episode stick out to me. He was born in mainland China and grew up in poverty during the communist takeover there. There was widespread famine at that time.

[Jimmy Lai]

I work as a boy, and he

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

recollected the story of working on the trains.

[Jimmy Lai]

Those guys, I carried the baggage for

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

carrying the bags of rich people who were going to Hong Kong, back and forth. And how one man gave him a piece of chocolate.

[Jimmy Lai]

What's this? It said chocolate. I said, where are you from?

[Sebastian Lai]

Hong Kong.

[Jimmy Lai]

I said, hong Kong must be heaven.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

That was so extraordinary in his memory because this was a sweetness he had never known and a luxury he couldn't really even imagine. That it prompted him eventually to flee to Hong Kong. And he actually ends up hiding in a boat traveling there. And this was all before your time, but were these stories that you heard growing up?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah. He also would tell me the story of when he first landed into Hong Kong and he went to the market. And he had never seen so much food in his entire life. So he. He broke down crying. And he'd always say it's one of the best days of his life, because in Hong Kong, even though he had nothing, he knew that at least he had freedom and that he had future. And I actually always heard these stories through a very Happy lens. And it's only growing up that I realized how painful that period of his life would have been.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Well, and he goes from nothing to becoming a multimillionaire. He eventually buys his own factory, he launches a clothing company, and eventually starts a very popular magazine. And then a newspaper, Apple Daily. When Hong Kong was still governed by Britain, and to so many in Hong Kong and around the world, he becomes this pro democracy champion. To others, including the Chinese government, he's something else. He's an agitator. He is a troublemaker. But to you, he's your father. And that's what we want to talk about here. What kind of dad was Jimmy Lai?

[Sebastian Lai]

So I was born in 94, just before the handover. Exactly. I was born three years before the handover. And I mean, all the memories that I have of are very happy memories. I guess that's what memory does to you. But he was a very good father, and he was also a very colorful personality. I mean, he used to have a bear.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

He used to have a bear.

[Sebastian Lai]

We used to have a brown bear at home. So when he was doing Giordano, this

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

is the clothing line he created before the newspapers.

[Sebastian Lai]

Exactly, yeah. Clothing line. He would have truck drivers. And one day, one of his truck drivers got. Saw the bear. Well, he thought it was a dog. He thought it was a puppy. So he went to my father and just was like, here, boss, this is a present for you. And my dad was like, well, what do you want me to do with it? And it was one of those moments where, you know, they didn't want, you know, to call animal control, whatever it was, to put it down. So. So dad kept the bear at home. And then eventually, you know, we got sent to a zoo and whatnot in Thailand. But for her period. Yeah, he had a bear.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

That does suggest a certain. A certain adventurousness.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

He pushes boundaries.

[Producer / Podcast Staff]

Right.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Suddenly you're living with a bear.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yes, yes. Yeah, he was. Well, he is. He's still a real rebel at heart.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Hmm. And what about Hong Kong itself? How did you experience your dad's relationship to the city?

[Sebastian Lai]

I mean, a lot of his favorite places were restaurants. You always go to these, like, wonderful Cantonese places, you know, with the dim sums with the steamed fish. Very local, very, you know, almost traditional, but very simple dishes. And I think going back to the first day he arrived, he has kind of this. And even back to the chocolate story, he has this relationship with food that gave him, you know, was one of those things that gave him a lot of joy in life. I mean, not only was it absolutely delicious, but for me it was that contrast.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

What do you mean?

[Sebastian Lai]

I think, you know, obviously people know how Hong Kong looks like. You know, these massive man made skyscrapers that threaten to touch the sky. And so you could have this massive metropolis but still have these kind of hole in the wall type of place. And as a kid, that's kind of the moment where you kind of see the eastern influence of the place. Hong Kong's a city that's steeped in Chinese culture, but then also had Western values. Free press, freedom of expression, we had a very strong rule of law. You know, it was one of the freest cities in that part of the world. You know, growing up, you kind of. You very much realize that. In fact, I still remember when dad started his newspaper and I remember going to the printing presses with him and it was pretty incredible. You would hear the machines that were non stop and you go up railings to see the machines from up top. And I think I must have been eight or nine. So my dad took me by the hand and then the other hand had touched the railings. And I still remember looking at my hand, I looked at it and my hand was black from the ink. And it was one of those moments where I kind of knew what dad did for work. I think it was one of those moments that made it very real for me.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

And was journalism something that you wanted to do? Was owning a newspaper something that you wanted to do? This entire line of work that your dad had is doing, it wasn't something

[Sebastian Lai]

that I particularly wanted to do. And I think part of the reason is because he was very free in terms of how he wanted us to live our lives.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

So he kind of freed you from that expectation to pursue what you wanted.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, exactly. He knew that this was his fight, especially there were occasions where he was followed by a house, was firebombed, someone skinned a dog and pinned it on our door. Wow. And so, you know, Dan knew that this wasn't a fight. It wasn't a. He would say himself that it wasn't necessarily a fight that he wanted to pass on to his kids because he knew the tremendous sacrifice. And in fact, I think that's what is so remarkable about him. This idea of someone arriving as a stowaway and becoming one of the most successful business people and then saying that I'm going to sacrifice all of that success, all of those opportunities to stand up for what is right. And I still remember this moment. It's me, him and my mother, we're in London, walking through Hyde park and it's a sunny day. And my father was, you know, he learned how to sing. To be completely honest, he didn't sing that well, but he liked to sing. And that's how, you know, that's how you get better. And on this beautiful day in London, he just. He's just singing in the park.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

What was he singing?

[Sebastian Lai]

He was singing Ave Maria.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

A difficult song for anyone.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yes. Yes, that's very true. You know, thinking back that day, just my father, you know, the sun shining on him, saying avenue at the top of his lungs. Even at that age, I think I was maybe 14, 15, a thought came to me that it's what personal freedom looks like. You know, here's a man who loves life, who loves so many different elements of life. And when he escaped China, that was what he escaped for. And it was a moment where I realized he had long achieved that, that he had the wealth, the status, the appreciation of someone that was free of someone that was truly free. And had he stayed there, had he stayed in London, you know, he's a British citizen, he's got a British passport, he would have had personal freedom.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Hmm.

[Sebastian Lai]

But despite that said that, actually I can't just be a person who lives for my own pleasure.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

And you were starting to understand that even as it sounds like a teenager.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

That your dad was a man who could have lived, if he chose to, in a state of constant indulgence. You know, his whole life could have been essentially walking through a very beautiful park, singing. And instead he chose a very different life with a great deal more risk and struggle.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah. I think he chose a life that instead of life that would have been outwardly beautiful, he chose one of inward beauty, one that, you know, has landed him in the Hong Kong prison.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

We'll be right back.

[VIZ Commercial Narrator]

Struggling to see up close. Make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using viz, Eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches, and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn [e-mail] I'm Luke Van Der Plug.

[Producer / Podcast Staff]

I'm a producer on the Daily. Probably my favorite part of working on the show is when we get to hear directly from our listeners, you guys, about how your lives are being impacted by the news. I've spent entire days of my life listening to hundreds of recordings that you all have sent in. It's wildly beautiful to hear all of your voices. And it's a huge reminder of the relationship that we have with our listeners. Every episode of the Daily is made for you to help you understand the world and understand your place in it a little bit better. We're able to bring you these stories because of a group of you who are subscribers to the New York Times. The Daily runs on the journalism of the New York Times, and the New York Times runs on subscribers. So if you love what we do, consider subscribing to the New York Times.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

I'm curious if you anticipated at any point that the promises that China made about Hong Kong's freedoms, I wonder when you started to sense that those promises were not gonna be kept.

[Sebastian Lai]

For me, at least it was 2014 during the umbrella protest.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

These are pro democracy.

[Sebastian Lai]

Exactly. Pro democracy protest. I was a university student at that point, and dad used to go out every day and join the protest. He would stand up there with a microphone and give speeches and then tell people to stand up for this and do it peacefully or whatnot. He was always a man of peace, but he was tear gassed or some even shot a canister at him. And then there was once where they threw pig inns on him.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Sebastian Lai]

And then once the tear gas came, he'd sort of, you know, wipe his face and then go back up again and talk again.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

As this is happening, are you out in the streets with your dad? Are you participating in those 2014 protests?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, I was out on the streets, but I wasn't with dad.

[Michael Barbaro]

But you were protesting?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, yeah, I was protesting.

[Producer / Podcast Staff]

Yeah.

[Sebastian Lai]

I mean, I was also hit with tear canisters as well. And I still remember I was with my girlfriend, now wife, at that time, and I just told her, like, look, let's just turn around and start walking. And then you feel a prickle at the back of your neck, and then you breathe in and, you know, all the tear gas. I still remember that. I mean, you know, nothing compared to what dad was doing, which he was literally on the front lines.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Was he encouraging you to get involved in the protests?

[Sebastian Lai]

No, I don't think it was something that he needed encouraging. I think, you know, at that point we realized that we're fighting for these freedoms, for our home and for our kids and their kids. You felt like you were part of something that was bigger than yourself.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Of course, after the 2014 protests, which die down for some period of time, by 2019, they are in full blossom once again. People are out in the streets and those protests end up centering around this now infamous National Security Law that starts to take freedoms away in a pretty formal way. And I have to imagine that in the back of your head in that period, you're starting to wonder what all this means for your father. What was for you the first sign that Chinese authorities might, might be coming for your dad?

[Sebastian Lai]

I think it was the brutality by some of the police officers and the crackdowns on a lot of the protests. The phrase I'll use is kind of overzealousness. Oh, my God. There was a kind of a social contract that was broken between the people of Hong Kong and the police at that point. Oh, my God.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

This was new.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, this was new. And then from there, obviously the actual passing of the National Security Law, and obviously many people told that to leave at that point because, I mean, everybody kind of knew that he was one of the main targets, that that law

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

seemed to have his name written all

[Sebastian Lai]

over it, that it was kind of like, you know, almost tailor made for him, so to speak.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Did you ever try to persuade your dad to lay low, to perhaps stop what he was doing in this period?

[Sebastian Lai]

I honestly, I've thought about that a lot and I, I didn't. I didn't. And I keep thinking about why I did not do it, because even at that point, I knew that there was a possibility that I'd never see my father again if he stayed in Hong Kong. I also knew that there's a few opportunities in life where you're. Where you're called almost by your principles to do the right thing. And obviously everybody knows that leaving would have been a much more comfortable choice, but he knew that it was a wrong choice. And as a son, I could see that he knew that it was the wrong choice. He knew that he was a captain and that he needed to go down with the ship and that by staying he could almost act as a lightning rod for the persecution to come.

[VIZ Commercial Narrator]

Hong Kong police on Monday made the highest profile arrest yet under China's new National Security Law. For the city. Media tycoon Jimmy Lai.

[Sebastian Lai]

Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai has been arrested under Beijing's.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

And then what you feared happens. He's arrested. Where were you when he was arrested?

[Sebastian Lai]

So I was actually, I was on a business trip in Taiwan and remember back in those days there was quarantine, So I was still in quarantine. Quarantine. Then someone knocks on my door at five in the morning and tells me that dad had been arrested, that they send dozens of National Security Police officers to Our home. To grab him and then perk. Walk him through his own office.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Right. A pretty elaborate power play, let's just be honest, Right? I mean, they take him from his home where they've arrested him to his office. To say something to the world.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah. To say something to the world and to all his genders as well.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Sebastian Lai]

And, yeah, I thought I was going to go back to Hong Kong, but they started arresting other people, and. Yeah. And I knew that it wasn't. It wasn't safe.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

I mean, is it. Is it safe to assume that you understood that if you had returned, you yourself might be arrested?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Did any part of you think about going anyway? I mean, I know your father freed you from the obligations of being a freedom fighter, you know, taking over his business, but did any part of you think I should go back?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah. Yeah, of course. When I first heard that he was arrested, I wanted to do all I can to free my father. And it's heartbreaking.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

I don't mean to be provocative, but I'm curious if not going back entails any kind of feelings of guilt.

[Sebastian Lai]

I actually. I think that that might be something that you have to ask me again in four or five years. I mean, I think some part of me obviously wants to see him more than anything. I haven't seen him in five years. I haven't been able to tell him in person how much I miss him, how proud I am of him. But what can I do from Hong Kong? I'll feel powerless to kind of just see him through this glass screen and talk to him on the phone. If they even let me do that, at least by doing what I'm doing. Doing. Now there's a taunt with me seeing him again, seeing him again as a free man.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Hmm. If the advocacy you're doing to try to get him out were to work.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Do you have any contact with your dad right now in prison.

[Sebastian Lai]

So. So I can't speak to him. I can't go back and see him, but I can still write him letters.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

He sends you letters?

[Sebastian Lai]

He sends me letters, and I send letters back.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Is there anything he said to you in a letter that you can share with us?

[Sebastian Lai]

To be honest, we just talk about what's happening in my life, family, what he's doing at the moment. And a lot of it is reading, and a lot of it is drawing these kind of religious drawings. He's a very strong Catholic, so he draws pictures of Christ of Mother Maria. You know, that's his way of. Of sort of being in touch with his faith. And you can imagine if you're, you know, in the solitary environment, it's, it's just between you and God and it's, it's, it's, yeah, I mean it's, it's very moving.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Do you know if he still sings?

[Sebastian Lai]

That's a, that's a good question, actually. I, I, I, I don't know. I don't know.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

I mean, are you wondering if there's really any chance you're ever going to see him again or does it feel to you like you, you really have lost your dad in,

[Jimmy Lai]

you know, I've

[Sebastian Lai]

been campaigning for, on his behalf for the last few years and when you do these things you just have to be hopeful. But yeah, it's, yeah, it's very distressing because I just don't know when it is that I'm going to get a text to tell me that something bad has happened to him. But, but until then I'll keep fighting until he's freed.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

What in your mind is the scenario in which he is freed? Is it Western leaders negotiating his release?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, it's to put pressure on both Hong Kong and China. And the thing is there's no,

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

you

[Sebastian Lai]

know, there's no upside for China to keep him in there anymore. And if the idea of China is this place, as they would say themselves, of quote, unquote stability, of being a superpower, well, torturing a 78 year old man, it's counter to what they hope to achieve.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

But you know this well, and I don't mean to diminish what is no doubt such an agonizing situation for you, but what China accomplishes by doing what they're doing to your father is telling everyone in Hong Kong that protest is futile because look what we can do, look what we have done to one of the richest and most powerful men in the city.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people think. But this idea of using my father's case as a deterrent, I mean the effect has already been done. Essentially. He's already been there for five years. They've already destroyed his health, they've already taken everything away from him. All they're doing now is making him into a martyr. There's no point in him dying. And I think if we look at my father's story, a man who's given so much for freedom, I think he deserves some freedom himself.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

I want to ask you about Hong Kong itself. When you think about the situation your father is now in and may or may not ever emerge from

[Sebastian Lai]

the pro

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

democracy movement, as best we can tell, is basically over. Especially now that such an important leader of its cause is locked away. Is the vision of Hong Kong as a place that could have any form of freedom. Is that officially over?

[Sebastian Lai]

Look, I can't predict the future, right? But I think one has to ask, what is the difference between Hong Kong and any other city in China? I mean, there's still some, you know, short term differences, but really in the long term, what is the fundamental difference? Many people would argue that there isn't.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

There isn't any difference.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Hong Kong is China now. And does that mean that the Hong Kong that your father fought for. It might be hard to hear these words, but it's gone.

[Sebastian Lai]

I honestly, I don't know. I think. I think it's always in people's hearts. It's obviously a very sad thought. Maybe the Hong Kong that dad and many people fought for is. Is now oppressed. But. But I. I wouldn't. I hope it's not gone.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Hmm.

[Sebastian Lai]

You know, I always thought I'd have a family in Hong Kong, get married there, see my grandma, my parents every now and then and, you know, have yum cha with the family on Sundays. But it's very easy to take it for granted that Hong Kong was always going to be the way it was going to be. Well, this was very easy for me to take it for granted. It's like that office quote, you know, the office TV show where one of the characters says, I wish they'd tell you that you're living in the good times when you are living in a good time, you know.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Do you have children of your own now?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, yeah, I've got a. I've got one.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

How old?

[Sebastian Lai]

She turned 2 recently, so she's never met my father before.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Does she know of him?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, yeah. She sees pictures of him and. Yeah, yeah. His grandfather in Cantonese and she'll say, yeah, like. And 47 pages. It's very sweet.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Has your father addressed her in any of his letters?

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, yeah. He's obviously incredibly happy. I mean, you know, you know how grandparents are. He misses her without having ever met her.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

That must be. Really hard.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah. But I'm sure she'll grow up knowing that she'd be proud of her grandfather as well.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Right. Whether she gets to meet him or not.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

And hopefully one day she will get to meet him.

[Sebastian Lai]

Yeah, hopefully one day she will.

[Interviewer / Podcast Host]

Yeah, that.

[Sebastian Lai]

That'd be a great. We'll be right back.

[VIZ Commercial Narrator]

Struggling to see up close, make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using viz eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn [e-mail] hi, I'm Solana Pyne.

[New York Times Video Director]

I'm the Director of Video at the New York Times. For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments. Videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on. Now we're bringing those videos to you in the Watch tab in the New York Times app. It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing. All the videos there are free for anyone to watch. You don't have to be a subscriber. Download the New York Times app to start watching.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here's what else you need to know Today. Netflix has backed away from its deal to acquire Warner Bros. Discovery, a stunning development that paves the way for the storied Hollywood media giant to end up under the control of the technology heir David Ellison. Netflix said that for business reasons, it would not match Ellison's higher offer for Warner Brothers. That means that Ellison's company, Paramount Skydance, will soon own two major studios plus cbs, HBO and cnn. And During a closed door videotaped deposition on Thursday, Hillary Clinton, the former first lady Democratic nominee for President and Secretary of State, scolded the Republican led committee investigating Jeffrey Epstein for compelling her to testify when she said she has never met Epstein and had no knowledge of his criminal activities. The hearing was briefly halted when a Republican committee member, Representative Lauren Boebert, leaked a photograph of Clinton's testimony to a conservative podcaster. House rules strictly prohibit taking photographs of closed door hearings.

[Sebastian Lai]

Today we are sitting through an incredibly unserious clown show of a deposition where

[New York Times Video Director]

members of Congress and the Republican Party

[Sebastian Lai]

are more concerned about getting their photo

[New York Times Video Director]

op of Secretary Clinton than actually getting

[Sebastian Lai]

to the truth and holding anyone accountable.

[Michael Barbaro]

Democrats on the committee, including Representative Yasmin Ansari, mocked the proceedings as a partisan political stunt that would do little to hold Epstein and his network of wealthy friends accountable. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lynn, Lindsey Garrison and Rob Zipko with help from Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Maria Byrd with help from Lexi Diaw. Contains original music by Elisheba itu, Dan Powell and music by Roni Misto, Marian Lozano and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley with help from Chris Wood. Special thanks to David Pearson. That's it for the daily I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Sunday.

[VIZ Commercial Narrator]

Struggling to see up close? Make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using VIZ include eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn [e-mail].