Podcast Summary: Chris Voss Says Trump’s Secret Weapon Is Empathy

Podcast: The Daily (The New York Times)
Episode Date: August 16, 2025
Host: David Marchese
Guest: Chris Voss, former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, negotiation coach, author of Never Split the Difference

Overview

This episode explores the art of negotiation with Chris Voss, whose high-stakes FBI career and bestselling negotiation book have made him a leading authority in the field. The discussion centers on what real negotiation skills look like — from crisis situations to everyday life — and specifically analyzes President Trump’s much-discussed negotiation style, with Chris Voss explaining why empathy—even tactical empathy—is essential, misunderstood, and potentially Trump’s most underrated skill. The conversation weaves in personal stories, lessons from hostage situations, failures and successes, and practical advice for everyday negotiations, from rent and job reviews to personal relationships.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chris Voss’ Career and Introduction to Negotiation

• Background in law enforcement: From SWAT to hostage negotiating via an unexpected path that began with volunteering on a suicide hotline.

  “I tried out for the FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team… Re-injured an old knee injury. So I volunteered for the negotiation team, was rejected and asked what I could do to get on. The woman that was in charge said, ‘Go volunteer on suicide hotline.’ I did and discovered the magic of emotional intelligence.” – Chris Voss (03:43)

• Lessons from a notorious early case:
  • The Chase Manhattan bank robbery (1993), where the bank robber downplayed his own authority, mirroring behaviors Voss observes in high-powered CEOs.

  “He was calm, he was in control of his own emotions the entire time… this bad guy in the bank actually displayed the characteristics of a great CEO negotiator.” – Chris Voss (05:14)

The Essentials of Tactical Empathy

• Definition & roots: Drawing on psychologist Carl Rogers—making someone feel thoroughly understood, not necessarily agreed with.

  “When someone feels thoroughly understood, you release potent forces for change within them… Not agreed with, but understood.” – Chris Voss (07:57)

• Why “tactical” empathy:

  “You can’t teach a Navy SEAL yoga breathing. You got to tell them it’s tactical breathing. And then they go, ‘Oh, okay, I’ll do that.’” – Chris Voss (08:58)

• Empathy as a neutral tool: Can be used for good (collaboration) or ill (manipulation), depending on intent.

  “It’s an incredibly powerful tool that relies upon the user.” – Chris Voss (16:44)

Empathy in Practice: Negotiation Scenarios

• Landlord-tenant rent example: Mirroring a landlord’s anxieties can often produce better outcomes than arguing or making demands.

  “So much defensiveness is deactivated that at a bare minimum, they’re going to move closer to your position.” – Chris Voss (11:29)

• Bullies vs. the pressured: Distinction between someone who truly won’t negotiate (the “7 percenters”) versus those lashing out due to personal stress.

  “He sounded predatory… but as soon as they found out he was under pressure and [was] grateful they recognized that, they ended up working things out.” – Chris Voss (15:25)

• Empathy isn’t agreement:

  “If empathy is understanding how somebody sees it, I think [Trump] has a highly evolved sense of it.” – Chris Voss (23:42)

Empathy and Trump’s Negotiation Style

Public vs. Private Persona

• Trump’s brash public style is contrasted with effective personal deal-making noted by world leaders after in-person meetings.

  “He appears very publicly to be a blunt object, and then in person, he seems to make deals. So what’s going on…? Is he charming? So I think there’s emotional intelligence skills there that don’t translate through the media, which he appears to have a gut instinct for and a knack for.” – Chris Voss (17:42)

• Trump’s use of social media as a data-gathering tactic:

  “He throws a lot of data out there, and then he assesses the data. He throws stuff out on social media. It’s a search for data. He’s provoking responses.” – Chris Voss (19:46)

• Does Trump possess empathy?

  “I think he has a highly evolved understanding of how other people see things.” – Chris Voss (22:43)

Empathy’s Limits: Policy & Leadership

• Can tough policies (e.g., on immigration) coexist with empathy? Voss notes understanding someone’s perspective doesn’t equate to agreeing with or accommodating it.

  “To lack empathy is to be oblivious. Now, what decisions that causes you to make is a whole separate issue.” – Chris Voss (23:50)

Personal Vulnerability and Lessons from Failure

The 7% Rule: Not Every Negotiation Succeeds

• Hostage negotiators succeed about 93% of the time — “the 7 percenters” represent intractable opponents or situations.

  “You got to accept the fact that 7% of the time, you’re never going to make a deal with the other person. You got to smoke that out early.” – Chris Voss (12:04)

• Personal and professional loss:
  • Divorce as a hard-fought, lost negotiation (34:11)
  • Hostages who didn’t make it—processing failure and learning from it, not letting it destroy you (35:08)

On Compromise

• Voss is critical of the “split the difference” style of compromise.

  “Compromise is guaranteed. Lose, lose. There’s no way around that. And so I don’t like a strategy where lose, lose.” – Chris Voss (38:13)

• The ideal is not 50/50 average, but something new and better than the sum of parts:

  “Steel is 2% carbon, 98% iron. That’s not a compromise. That’s finding out what the best combination is and producing something the world has never seen before.” – Chris Voss (39:20)

Practical Negotiation Advice

Everyday Negotiation

• Most people fear negotiation/conflict; Voss argues it can be collaborative and enjoyable with the right approach.

  “People don’t really want to fight. They would prefer to collaborate. They’re just not sure exactly how to get there.” – Chris Voss (26:36)

• Advice for evaluations and raises:

  “They see you as selfish because they know you’re going to come in there with an ask. So you start out by saying, ‘Look, I know I’m just another selfish employee that just wants more for the same amount of work…’ Then, collaboratively with your boss, it’s not so much where we’ve been, but where we’re going.” – Chris Voss (29:05)

Negotiating with Negotiators

• What to do when both parties know the “playbook”:

  “Are you trying to collaborate with me? Are you trying to cheat me? I’m going to be able to smell your intent early on.” – Chris Voss (27:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [07:57] – “When someone feels thoroughly understood, you release potent forces for change within them. Not agreed with, but understood.” (Chris Voss)
• [08:58] – “You can’t teach a Navy SEAL yoga breathing. You got to tell them it’s tactical breathing.” (Chris Voss, on why 'tactical' empathy appeals)
• [16:44] – “It’s an incredibly powerful tool that relies upon the user.” (Chris Voss on the neutrality of empathy)
• [17:42] – “He appears very publicly to be a blunt object, and then in person, he seems to make deals.” (Chris Voss on Trump)
• [22:43] – “I think he has a highly evolved understanding of how other people see things.” (Chris Voss on Trump’s empathy)
• [29:05] – “They see you as selfish because they know you’re going to come in there with an ask… Start thinking about how your boss evaluates you and then contribute to that collaboratively.” (Chris Voss on negotiation at work)
• [38:13] – “Compromise is guaranteed lose, lose.” (Chris Voss)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:43 – How Chris Voss became a hostage negotiator
• 05:14 – Lessons from the Chase Manhattan bank robbery case
• 07:57 – What is tactical empathy?
• 09:44 – Empathy in landlord-tenant negotiations
• 15:45 – Elon Musk’s criticism of empathy (responded)
• 17:42 – Analysis of Trump’s dealmaking style
• 22:43 – Examples of Trump’s empathy on Middle East policy
• 29:05 – Advice for workplace negotiations
• 34:11 – Personal loss: Divorce as failed negotiation
• 35:08 – On failure and the 7% of unsuccessful hostage negotiations
• 38:13 – Critique of compromise
• 41:25 – Is this podcast conversation itself a negotiation?

Tone & Style

• The conversation is candid, with Voss often self-deprecating and philosophical, while Marchese adopts a curious but sharp approach.
• Voss mixes practical examples, personal anecdotes, and a straightforward, sometimes humorous style.

End Note:
This episode demystifies both negotiation itself and the persona of Donald Trump as a dealmaker. Chris Voss reframes empathy as the ultimate negotiation skill—rigorously practical, powerful in all settings, and just as viable in geopolitics as it is around the dinner table. Listeners are left with strategies for better negotiations, reflections on personal responsibility, and a skeptical—but not dismissive—take on the “art of the deal.”