Congress Orders Trump to Release the Epstein Files

Summary

The Daily – Congress Orders Trump to Release the Epstein Files (Nov. 19, 2025)

Episode Overview

Theme:
The episode centers on a dramatic political showdown in Congress, where a bipartisan bill forces President Trump’s administration to release all files related to Jeffrey Epstein. Originally initiated and driven by a few Republican lawmakers—against Trump’s sustained opposition—the effort becomes a test of party loyalty, political courage, and transparency. The episode chronicles how the rebellion grew, why President Trump ultimately reversed course, and the wider implications for his second term and party unity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Emergence of a Republican-Led Rebellion

• Emotional News Conference: The episode opens with a press conference outside the Capitol, led by Congressman Thomas Massie, survivors of Epstein’s crimes, and key Republican lawmakers. The mood is one of defiance and purpose.
  • “We are fighting for the children that were abandoned and left behind.”
    — Rep. Thomas Massie [01:44]
  • “The truth has been buried in sealed files and hidden records for far too long.”
    — Michael Barbaro [02:19]
• Personal Stakes: Lawmakers, including Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, and Nancy Mace, cite personal experiences with abuse or a commitment to survivors as motivation for their stand.
• First Time Defiance: Annie Carney notes that this marks the first time in years that core MAGA (Make America Great Again) Republicans publicly break with Trump on an issue so central to transparency and victim justice.
  • “Watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart.”
    — Marjorie Taylor Greene [04:01]

2. The Legislative Path: Discharge Petition and Political Pressure

• Discharge Petition Mechanics:
  • Initiated months ago by Massie and Democrat Ro Khanna. Requiring 218 signatures, this procedural maneuver allows rank-and-file members to circumvent leadership and bring a bill directly to the floor.
  • Initially, many Republicans sign on. Trump’s stiff opposition causes most to retract. Only four remain: Massie, Boebert, Greene, and Mace.
• Trump’s Pressure Campaign:
  • Trump personally calls Boebert and Mace, pressures them to withdraw support.
  • Boebert is brought to the Situation Room—a sign of extraordinary pressure and seriousness—but remains steadfast.
    • “Just the whole staging of this was clearly, you know, shock and awe... But it doesn’t work.”
      — Annie Carney [10:07]
  • Constituents’ support during the House recess reinforces resolve among the four remaining Republicans.

3. The Tipping Point: Trump’s Sudden Reversal

• 218th Vote Secured: After the swearing-in of Adelita Grijalva (Democrat from Arizona), the petition gets the crucial 218th signature, making the bill inevitable.
• Trump Faces a No-win Scenario: Republicans warn Trump that continued opposition looks like a coverup and he is certain to lose the vote.
  • “He realizes he is going to lose and he does not like to lose.”
    — Annie Carney [12:00]
• Trump’s Public U-Turn:
  • On a flight from Florida, Trump posts on Truth Social that Republicans should now vote for the bill.
    • “Literally, that’s what Troy Nels from Texas told me last night. ‘Yeah, Trump said to vote for it, so now I’m for it.’”
      — Annie Carney [14:01]
  • Heavy MAGA resistance evaporates; near-unanimous passage is expected.

4. Congressional Dynamics and Political Fallout

• Restoring Congressional Power:
  • For the first time in years, Congress asserts its authority and forces Trump to yield.
    • “Today is likely to be the first time that we see Congress dictating the terms of engagement and Donald Trump having to cave.”
      — Annie Carney [16:15]
  • Signals growing disconnect between Trump and his base, with hints at deeper fractures in the MAGA movement.
• Personal and Political Costs:
  • Massie notes Trump's political retaliation against dissenters.
  • Internal debates over whether breaking with Trump is justified by public pressure for transparency.

5. A Conversation with Rep. Thomas Massie (MM:19:07–26:16)

• On Leading the Effort:
  • “A lot of people said in the beginning this was a quixotic effort that was doomed to fail. But here we are. The vote’s going to happen today, and they can’t do anything to stop it.”
    — Rep. Thomas Massie [19:46]
• On Trump’s Motivations:
  • “He’s been, until this week, tenacious in his opposition. It makes you wonder if he’s worried about himself. But I’ve always maintained that he’s probably not criminally implicated in these files…he is taking up for friends and donors of his and people who were in his social circle in the 90s…what my colleague calls the Epstein class.”
    — Massie [20:32]
• On Party and Congressional Independence:
  • Sees this as "an overdue correction" to Congress's long-standing ceding of power to Trump and the Executive Branch [21:59].
  • “It’s a victory for the people who exerted enough pressure on the members of Congress…they went to the speaker and to the President and said, ‘You can’t make us vote against victims of sex trafficking.’” [22:30]
• On Fractures in MAGA:
  • “He [Trump] disavowed and disowned the portion of his base that wanted these Epstein files released…that’s when he lost a large degree of support.” [23:10]
• On Doing What’s Right:
  • “Even if I lost, I’d rather lose and do the right thing up here than make the kind of trade offs that you make when you're scared to stay elected.” [25:50]

6. The Vote: The ‘Epstein Transparency Act’ Passes

• Bipartisan Triumph:
  • The final tally: 427–1 in favor.
    • “If my colleagues will vote for this measure, we’ll see justice triumph over politics. Truth will triumph over deception and obfuscation. Transparency.”
      — Rep. Thomas Massie on the House floor [26:28]
  • Trump commits—publicly—to sign the bill if it passes the Senate.

7. The Broader Political Meaning

• Emerging ‘Lame Duckism’:
  • NYT’s Carl Holz suggests this episode marks the early onset of “lame duck” status for Trump, as Republicans begin prioritizing their own survival over blind loyalty.
    • “We’re seeing…the glimmers of lame duckism for President Trump.”
      — Carl Holz [28:26]
  • Congressional Republicans’ fears begin to shift from Trump’s power to voter backlash.
  • “Now they're starting to have a little fear of voters, and that can make a difference how they align with Trump.”
    — Carl Holz [31:26]
• Potential for More Dissent:
  • Suggests a new era where Trump’s authority is challenged, and the traditional rules of political self-preservation return.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rep. Thomas Massie:

  • “We are fighting for the children that were abandoned and left behind.” [01:44]
  • “He [Trump] disavowed and disowned the portion of his base that wanted these Epstein files released.” [23:10]
  • “Even if I lost, I’d rather lose and do the right thing up here than make the kind of trade offs that you make when you're scared to stay elected.” [25:50]

• Marjorie Taylor Greene:

  • “Watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart.” [04:01]

• Carl Holz:

  • “There’s no stronger emotion in politics than self preservation for most of these guys…If they see that Trump is weakening, they're gonna make the moves they think are gonna help themselves.” [30:51]

• Annie Carney:

  • “Today is likely to be the first time that we see Congress dictating the terms of engagement and Donald Trump having to cave.” [16:15]

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Timeline & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | Notable Content | |------------|---------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:26 | Show start | Barbaro introduces the main story: rebellion in Congress, Epstein files | | 01:34–02:19| Emotional news conference | Lawmakers and survivors speak about personal stakes, demand transparency | | 04:43 | News conference wrap-up | Barbaro sets the scene, focuses on bipartisan support | | 06:00–12:29| Recap & Annie Carney interview | Details on the Congressional fight, pressure, discharge petition | | 12:44–15:22| Trump’s reversal | Trump’s political calculus, unanimous vote expected | | 19:07–26:16| Rep. Massie interview | On leading the rebellion, Trump’s motives, congressional independence | | 26:26–27:44| The vote in Congress | Final vote, bipartisan victory on the Epstein Transparency Act | | 28:26–31:51| Carl Holz analysis | Early “lame duckism,” shifting congressional priorities, implications for Trump | | 32:10 | Senate action | Senate poised to pass the bill, Trump expected to sign |

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Conclusion

This episode offers a gripping account of a rare, consequential episode of congressional defiance, underlining the limits of Trump’s influence even among his most loyal followers. The successful push to force the release of the Epstein files marks a crucial moment—for transparency, party politics, and U.S. institutional balance—and signals new cracks in the MAGA coalition as the Trump presidency enters a possible lame-duck phase.

Transcript

[Annie Carney]

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[Michael Barbaro]

Terms apply.

[Annie Carney]

See capitalone.com for details.

[Michael Barbaro]

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the Daily. In a dramatic vote on Tuesday, Congressional Republicans overwhelmingly approved a bill that President Trump spent months trying to kill that will now force his administration to release all of its files related to Jeffrey Epstein. Today, the story of how a rebellion started by a handful of Republican lawmakers became a party wide mutiny against the president and a defining moment of his second term. It's Wednesday, November 19th.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Oh, good morning. It's a little chilly coming from Florida.

[Michael Barbaro]

Not used to it. I know everybody sees us today as grown adults, but we are fighting for.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

The children that were abandoned and left behind. This is who you're fighting for.

[Michael Barbaro]

This is who Congress is fighting for. This is who the House of Representatives are fighting for. I want to kick this off right.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

And I want to address. I was a child.

[Michael Barbaro]

I was in ninth grade. I was hopeful for life.

[Annie Carney]

I was only 14 when I first encountered Jeffrey Epstein.

[Michael Barbaro]

And my daughter is now almost at that age.

[Annie Carney]

At 14.

[Michael Barbaro]

What we endured was real.

[Annie Carney]

The truth has been buried in sealed.

[Michael Barbaro]

Files and hidden records for far too long. The Epstein files transparent. Alone, yes, we are afraid, but together we are feared. Emotionally, this process has been distressing. First, the administration said it would release everything. Then it fought to release nothing.

[Annie Carney]

Let me be clear. This is not a hoax.

[Michael Barbaro]

I beg you, President Trump, please stop making this political. It is not about you.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

President Trump.

[Michael Barbaro]

I voted for you. But your behavior on this issue has been a national embarrassment.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Because survivors spoke up because of their courage. The truth is finally going to come out. And I also want to thank the courage of two of my colleagues in particular. Both of them have suffered, as you.

[Michael Barbaro]

Know, extraordinary political consequences for what they did.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

And I want to hand it over.

[Michael Barbaro]

To my colleague, Representative Thomas Massie.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

I want to start by thanking the survivors. I mean, they're giving everybody hope in this country. We're going to get justice for them. That's going to happen today in the People's House. We had long odds, but we had some brave women on the Republican side. They were pressured in ways that you cannot even imagine, and they stood strong. My Colleague Marjorie Taylor Greene is one of them who's here with us today.

[Annie Carney]

These women have fought the most horrific fight that no woman should have to fight. And they did it by banding together and never giving up. And that's what we did by fighting so hard against the most powerful people in the world, even the president of the United States. And he called me a traitor for standing with these women. I wasn't a Johnny come lately to the MAGA train. And I'll tell you right now, watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart.

[Michael Barbaro]

It's about 10am on Tuesday morning. We are standing outside the U.S. capitol where this really emotional news conference is now wrapping up. And it featured victims of Jeffrey Epstein and this bipartisan group of lawmakers, Republicans and Democrats, who have forced the Trump administration to back a measure that would require it to release all of its Epstein files, something President Trump has fought tooth and nail. So we're now going to go inside the Capitol to talk to our colleague Annie Carney about how these lawmakers persuaded President Trump into reversing himself and backing this measure to release the Epstein files. And then we're going to watch as this bill, in a couple hours, we think, gets passed perhaps unanimously. And Annie should be back here.

[Carl Holz]

Hello.

[Annie Carney]

Hello. Welcome to our humble abode.

[Michael Barbaro]

It is about as humble as it gets.

[Annie Carney]

This is our very exclusive closet that we get to sit in every day.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, thank you for making some space at your little closet here for us and for making time for us in.

[Annie Carney]

General today, of course.

[Michael Barbaro]

So, and just to start, this has been an extraordinary few days at the Capitol. That brings us to Tuesday's vote. And I'd argue that this vote feels like a major moment, not just in the Epstein story, whose victims have pleaded for it, but for the entire second term presidency of Donald Trump because of how ferociously he fought this vote, ever happening at every turn and with every available tool until suddenly he gave up, which he very, very rarely does in a political fight. So tell us the story of how over the past few days, President Trump concluded that he had to give up the fight. Here.

[Annie Carney]

I think where the most recent chapter of this starts is when the government shutdown ends and Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, is forced finally to swear in this Democrat from Arizona, Adelita Grijalva, who won a special election a few months ago, and he was slow rolling her swearing in. And that was going to provide the 218th vote on this petition.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. The petition, which we should just say as a reminder, harkens Back, like, months.

[Annie Carney]

Yes, months ago. Thomas Massie, a Republican, and Ro Khanna, a Democrat, paired together to start this discharge petition. Discharge petitions are just something that any member can do. You have to get 218 signatures, and if you do not, nothing. No. It's hard. It's hard to get these things off the ground because that requires bipartisan support. If you do, you can circumvent leadership and force them to bring a bill to the floor that they don't want to bring to the floor. They started this months ago. When they first rolled it out. Dozens of Republicans were saying they were gonna sign on. When it became clear that Trump was opposed to this, that support drained away. And there were only four Republicans left. Thomas Massey, who was the leader of the movement, and three women, hardcore MAGA Trump loyalists. Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Nancy Mace.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. Some of the biggest names in the manga movement, kind of the neon, like, names of it.

[Annie Carney]

These are like the warehouse members that regular people who don't follow this all the time might know these things and.

[Michael Barbaro]

Know to be exceedingly loyal to President Trump. They say, we will stick with this petition.

[Annie Carney]

That was immediately sort of interesting that it was just the women who were holding strong. And, you know, a few of these women have talked a lot about their own experience with abuse and assault. Nancy Mace has. Lauren Boebert has. Marjorie Taylor Greene has not. But they were driven by personal reasons and made that clear. But still, it was a question mark of if Donald Trump continues to pressure them, and he was, would they stick or would they try and remove their names?

[Michael Barbaro]

Right, so let's get back to the part of the chronology where suddenly, because this Congresswoman elect is finally sworn in, their votes really matter.

[Annie Carney]

Right. With Adelita Grihalf, it has exactly 218. And the pressure really intensifies on Boebert and Mace and Greene. Trump personally calls Mace and Boebert and is pressuring them himself. We learn that Lauren Boebert is invited in to a meeting in the Situation Room with Pam Bonnie, the Attorney General, and Kash Patel, the FBI director, for a briefing on Epstein related matters, which is just kind of unheard of to sit in that room with one member of Congress.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right? This is a room, the Situation Room, that, I mean, we regard it cinematically as the place where the Cuban Missile Crisis is being overseen and where Bin Laden's killing is being watched by Barack.

[Annie Carney]

Obama and that famous photo that we all have seen.

[Michael Barbaro]

So they bring Boebert into that room of all rooms and presumably make the case to her that she should not remain a signatory to this petition.

[Annie Carney]

Right. I mean, we don't know exactly what was said in the room, but Lauren Bowit's probably never been in this situation. Just the whole staging of this was clearly, you know, shock and awe of the treatment she's getting in this moment when she's a critical vote. But it doesn't work. She does not remove her name from the petition. And in fact, the extreme pressure campaign on her actually made her dig in more. She started to get even more conspiratorial about why they were so adamantly opposed to this. And an interesting dynamic that unfolded during the shutdown was Mike Johnson recessed the House for a month. So all these members were home. And what I heard is Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene, all they heard from constituents for a month was, you're brave, hold the line, stay strong, we're with you on this. None of the feedback they got from voters was that there was any repercussions for going against Trump on this issue.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. It starts to feel like the truest expression of MAGA ism to these leaders of MAGA is to back this measure.

[Annie Carney]

Correct.

[Michael Barbaro]

Is to give supporters of this movement the transparency they want when it comes to Jeffrey ticket.

[Annie Carney]

I think they become incredibly passionate and feel like they cannot move.

[Michael Barbaro]

So these four House Republicans are digging in. They're back from their districts. They are determined to stick with this discharge petition. And it feels worth saying that it's this point because the 218 signatures are on that petition. And this is going to keep moving forward. It's eventually going to become a bill on the floor of the House that Trump is now asking the entire House Republican caucus to make an impossible choice because, and correct me if I'm wrong, and he is asking them now to hold the line against this bill. He's like, sure, maybe we've got this petition, but everybody else needs to stay with me. Which means he's asking them to choose him over the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. It's the ultimate Trump loyalty test.

[Annie Carney]

Totally. I mean, this was shaping up to be a terrible vote for Republicans, not only choosing between Trump and the victims themselves, but Trump and their own voters who have been demanding this release. So after Grijalva is sworn in, it's just a matter of what day Mike Johnson is gonna schedule the vote, because it's an inevitability at that point.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Annie Carney]

And he decides to do it rather quickly and just get done with it. So Speaker Johnson says he's going to schedule the vote for early this week. And it becomes clear internally in the conference that many Republicans are going to vote for it.

[Michael Barbaro]

So when it comes to this impossible choice, many House Republicans are going to be choosing against the president.

[Annie Carney]

Correct. So they start telling the President this. Members themselves are talking to him. And over the last weekend he was in Florida and he's hearing that there are going to be many defections and that the vote is inevitable at this point. And he realizes he is going to lose and he does not like to lose. Another thing that he heard from members was that the more he was fighting, the more it looked like he was trying to cover something up. So on the flight back from Florida on Sunday night on Air Force One, he drafts this truth social Post doing a 180 and telling House Republicans to vote for the release. This was great news for House Republicans who were saved from this awful choice. And we immediately saw even the most hard right Republicans who had said they are a hard no, that it's a Democratic hoax, they would never vote for this, suddenly say like, yeah, of course I'm voting for it. Trump told me to. Literally. That's what Troy Nels from Texas told me last night. Yeah, Trump said to vote for it, so now I'm for it.

[Michael Barbaro]

So once Trump reverses himself and backs this bill, everyone has permission in the Republican Party to back it. And it sounds like almost all of them are backing it.

[Annie Carney]

Yes, it's expected to be a unanimous or near unanimous vote to release the files. No one wants to be on record saying they don't support transparency on the.

[Michael Barbaro]

Epstein issue, even if just hours before they were correct.

[Annie Carney]

And Trump goes even further in the Oval Office on Monday, he says that if it passes the Senate and comes to his desk, he'll sign it into law. Just a reality check here is that if he really wanted to compel the Justice Department to release these files, he actually doesn't need Congress to tell him to do so. He could just do that. And he hasn't done it. So there are still questions on what will a release really look like, what will actually be released? But for now, it's just a total change of tune.

[Michael Barbaro]

So in summary, what really happened here over the past week or so is that a mutiny that was started by these four House Republicans became kind of a movement against Trump that forced him to recognize that this time Congressional Republicans were going to be the ones calling the shots. And in that sense, it does kind of feel like a real ground shifting moment, a real before and after moment in this administration.

[Annie Carney]

It does. It feels like it is indicative of a splintering that's happening in the movement that we're seeing on multiple fronts in this moment. A realization that the base and Trump are not totally aligned. And I just think enough cannot be said about the fact that four hard right Republicans stood up to Trump in a way that we have not seen any moderate or center leaning Republican do in 10 years. Right. And they break with him on something incredibly important to him. I mean, the story of this Congress until today has been that they have willingly ceded all of their power to the executive branch. And today is likely to be the first time that we see Congress dictating the terms of engagement and Donald Trump having to cave.

[Michael Barbaro]

Lanie, thank you very much.

[Annie Carney]

Thank you.

[Michael Barbaro]

After the break, a conversation with one of the four House Republicans who forced the President to cave. We'll be right back. This podcast is supported by the American Petroleum Institute. Energy demand is rising and the infrastructure we build today will power generations to come. We can deliver affordable, reliable and innovative energy solutions for all Americans. But we need to overhaul our broken permitting process to make that happen. It's time to modernize and build because when America builds, America wins. Read our plan to secure America's Future@ permitting reformnow.org this podcast is supported by AT&T. America's First Network is also its fastest and most Reliable based on RootMetrics United States Root Score Report 1H 2025 tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types. Your experiences may vary. RootMetrics rankings are not an endorsement of ATT. When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T the New York Times app has.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

All this stuff that you may not have seen.

[Annie Carney]

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

[Michael Barbaro]

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

[Annie Carney]

I go to games always doing the.

[Michael Barbaro]

Mini, doing the wordle.

[Annie Carney]

I loved how much content it exposed me to things that I never would have to turn to a news app for.

[Michael Barbaro]

This app is essential.

[Annie Carney]

The New York Times app. All of the times all in one place. Download it [e-mail] app.

[Michael Barbaro]

So a couple minutes ago I texted Congressman Massie and said, you don't know me, but I would really like to talk to you about your role in all of this. And I invoked our colleague Katie Edmondson, a couple times congressional reporter who knows the congressman and has his respect. And he just texted back and said can you meet at Cannon Rotunda in the next 15 minutes and so we're now walking underground from the Capitol to the Cannon Office Building to talk to Congressman Massey about his role in this very big vote. Do you guys know what floor the Cannon Rotunda is on?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

2.

[Michael Barbaro]

3. 3. Session 43 going up next year. This is y.

[Annie Carney]

Thank you.

[Michael Barbaro]

Thank you. Have a good one.

[Carl Holz]

You, too.

[Michael Barbaro]

Okay. Cannon Rotunda. And Congressman Massie. Great.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Probably I got to go write a speech at some point. Okay, give me a second.

[Michael Barbaro]

Look, is that a. Is that a national debt clock on your shirt?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Is. But please, my eyes are up here.

[Michael Barbaro]

Yes. Okay. Congressman Massie, thank you for making time for us. I know it's a huge and important day for you. This all very much feels like you're doing what's happening today. Along with Congressman Rio Khanna, you're kind of singularly responsible for getting this all started, I guess. I just want to start by asking you, how does it feel to have originated this all?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Well, a lot of people.

[Michael Barbaro]

And be where we are, a lot.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Of people said in the beginning this was a quixotic effort that was doomed to fail. And most discharge petitions do fail. But here we are. The vote's going to happen today, and they can't do anything to stop it.

[Michael Barbaro]

You had to fight, if you'll forgive me, like hell. To get to this point, the president has basically politically disowned you. He's backed somebody back in your district in Kentucky who may or may not end up running, but he's dis. Endorsed you, and he's trying to get you out of the House of Representatives. How do you explain why the President would oppose what you have described as essentially a transparency act, an act of justice for young victims of sexual abuse by Jeffrey Epstein? Like, have you ever really settled in your mind why he opposes it?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

He's been, until this week, tenacious in his opposition. It makes you wonder if he's worried about himself. But I've always maintained that he's probably not criminally implicated in these files that he is taking up for friends and donors of his and people who were in his social circle in the 90s long before he was president and people who may be giving him money now, my friend covering for some. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. These are people that he knew. He claims, and there's evidence to this, that he disavowed his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein at some point. But he has colleagues and friends who did not, and donors who did not. They're what my colleague calls the Epstein class. Rich elite, connected individuals who always have thought they're above the law and if they ever get in trouble, they'll just buy a politician. And in my district, they're trying to buy a politician.

[Michael Barbaro]

To the degree that this has become a political story versus what you've always seemed to want it to be, which is a story of victims and documents becoming public, it feels like it's become the story of you all making an end run around the President when he fought this and Congress in a very real sense rebalancing power that it has ceded over the past year to Trump into the Executive branch. Is that how you see this? Is this an overdue correction?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

It is an overdue correction.

[Michael Barbaro]

Balance.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

But you know, it's the House that has ceded the authority to the President. The President didn't come.

[Michael Barbaro]

And your House, your party.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Yeah. Speaker Johnson, the President isn't acting outside of the Constitution. He is getting the Congress to do nothing in the face of what he does. And, and I wouldn't say this is a victory for the speaker of the House because he has been fine with doing whatever the President wants to do.

[Michael Barbaro]

So who's it a victory for?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

It's a victory for the people who exerted enough pressure on the members of Congress that I think they went to the speaker and to the President and said, we can't do this. You can't make us vote against victims of sex trafficking. And ultimately the President and the speaker can do math. They saw they were going to lose.

[Michael Barbaro]

This vote and then they backed it.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

And then they decided to back it.

[Michael Barbaro]

If there's a cost to this all, I think your colleague, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene just identified it out there at that news conference. She says this is ripping MAGA apart. Do you agree with that? And to the degree that you do, do you feel badly about that? Or is it just the cost of forcing the President to reckon with what the people want here?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

If there's a cost, it's self inflicted by the President. He disavowed and disowned the portion of his base that wanted these Epstein files released. He said, you're no longer one of my friends if you want to release these files. And I think that's when he lost a large degree of support. It's hard to say he's getting bad advice. Some of the things that he's done that we don't agree with on the Republican side, we've chalked it up to bad advice, but at some point he's accountable for his own statements.

[Michael Barbaro]

Self inflicted wound to MAGA from the President is what you're saying.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

It's clear as day. That's what happened. I'm glad. Now that he's joining the effort, let's just make sure that they don't derail the effort some other way.

[Michael Barbaro]

You said something a couple days ago to your colleagues who remained pretty frightened about voting for this bill before the President reversed course, looked at the math and said, I gotta get behind this. You said that the President's endorsement in your district, sure, that's gonna help you and your district in the next cycle, but the memory of this vote is gonna live a lot longer than the President's legacy or his political influence. What did you mean by that?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Well, the President's giving out presidential endorsements to Republicans like Pez Candy over there at the White House, but the deal is that you'll always vote with him. And so he set them up in a situation where they were all going to take their endorsement and then walk the plank politically.

[Michael Barbaro]

On Epstein.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

On Epstein, put themselves at odds with their own constituents. And so ultimately, I think he realized he'd given them a bad choice, one that frankly could cost us the midterms and could really diminish the population party. You know, ultimately I think it was a political calculation that he made and he released them from their obligation to walk the plank.

[Michael Barbaro]

But you're also telling fellow Republicans not to be afraid of saying when he.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Strays, absolutely nobody should be afraid. I wish there had been more than three Republicans who joined me. But maybe we've got a message here today from the rest of my colleagues, which is when you're on the right side, when you're on the side of the people, especially when you're on the side of the President's base, then you can take that position and keep the President honest. Maybe he'll come around.

[Michael Barbaro]

You are what I like to call the tallest tree in the forest right now.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

It's a short forest.

[Michael Barbaro]

And when Donald Trump sees a really tall tree in the forest, sometimes he wants to knock it down. And he's been very successful at it. Is that a worry you have?

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

I'm not worried about it. I mean, there's already been $2 million spent in my primary and it's not until May I've got the support of the people in my district. But even if I lost, I'd rather lose and do the right thing up here than make the kind of trade offs that you make when you're scared.

[Michael Barbaro]

And that he wanted to do.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Stay elected. Yeah. And that vast majority of my colleagues have been making.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Congressman, thank you, thank you. Appreciate your time.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

All right.

[Carl Holz]

Gentleman from Kentucky is recognized.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Mr. Speaker, today's an extraordinary day in this chamber. If my colleagues will vote for this measure, we'll see justice triumph over politics. Truth will triumph over deception and obfuscation. Transparency. Gentlelady from Georgia is recognized for five minutes.

[Annie Carney]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I proudly rise today in a bipartisan effort to release the Epstein files. Finally after 5.

[Michael Barbaro]

Mr. Speaker, I move to suspend the rules and pass HR4405.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

The clerk will re report the title.

[Michael Barbaro]

Of the bill, H.R.

[Annie Carney]

4405, a bill to require the Attorney General. General to release all documents and records in possession of the Department of Justice relating to Jeffrey F. Steen and for other purposes.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

On this vote, the yeas are 427. The nays are 1/2 being in the affirmative. The rules are suspended. The bill is passed, and without objection, the motion to reconsider is laid on the table.

[Michael Barbaro]

So the voting in the House is now officially over. The measure, what's being called around here, the Epstein Transparency act, has officially passed. 427 21. It was almost unanimous. In the end, a single House Republican voted against it. And now that it has passed, we wanted to talk to one of the smartest minds on Washington here at the New York Times, Carl Holz, to make sense of what this vote means well beyond Epstein and really even just this moment. Carl, just walk us through how you're thinking about the vote that just happened today in the biggest possible context.

[Carl Holz]

Yeah, I think what we're seeing is not just with this vote, but with some other developments, the glimmers of lame duckism for President Trump.

[Michael Barbaro]

Just, just explain that.

[Carl Holz]

So in my experience, generally, you know, the lame duck status for a second term president comes after the midterm election. And they generally lose, which is a.

[Michael Barbaro]

Year out from now.

[Carl Holz]

Right. Which is. They generally lose and everyone goes up. They're done. Right. It's coming a little earlier because the election earlier this month, resounding Democratic victories, bigger than we anticipated and up and down the ballot. And I think this is being processed in real time by members of Congress. And I think Thomas Massie said something interesting about this. He said, you know, this vote is going to be remembered longer than Trump's in office.

[Michael Barbaro]

You're literally, you're reciting the line that I recited back to him today because this, because it felt very memorable.

[Carl Holz]

That is a very incisive comment that he made. And it's not just this vote. There's some other things we're seeing. Trump was really determined to get the Senate to back off on the filibuster during the shutdown. And they didn't. They held firm because guess what? They need that filibuster beyond President Trump's tenure.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's a case of seeing beyond Trump.

[Carl Holz]

Right. I think the redistricting in some of these. These states are resisting Trump, even though, you know, there's like, we're trying to do it.

[Michael Barbaro]

You're talking about, for example, Indiana. Indiana, where the President went to them and said, okay, it's your turn.

[Carl Holz]

Rewrite the. And there's reluctance because these are longer term things. And to me, it's important to note, people thought that Trump is a totally different politician and he's not vulnerable to the things that we saw.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. That lame duckness would be obsolete. Right.

[Carl Holz]

That he's never gonna be a lame duck because of his use of the bully Pope, but as a real bully. Right. I think, you know, this is just the beginnings, and Trump is still a real powerhouse, especially among Republicans. But I do think there's real cracks in this coalition.

[Michael Barbaro]

And once the cracks of lame duckery, whatever you want to call it, lame duckism, start to show, I wonder how much it can't be papered over. And people want to start poking their hole in it and testing it, and it just kind of creates an opening that has to be exploited.

[Carl Holz]

Yeah. I think it's just the nature of politics. Right. There's no stronger emotion in politics than self preservation for most of these guys. Right. They're going to do what it takes to preserve themselves. And if they see that Trump is weakening, they're gonna make the moves they think are gonna help themselves. And it's true. Trump is not gonna be around forever. Right.

[Michael Barbaro]

And for the longest time, self preservation for a congressional Republican meant only one thing. It meant doing what Trump wanted. And now what you're describing is self preservation starting to necessitate breaking with him.

[Carl Holz]

Right. I think you're exactly right. And I think we'll start to see more of this. It'll be gradual, but I think the trend is in that direction right now. The fear of Trump was paramount on Capitol Hill. For Republicans, that drove everything. Now they're starting to have a little fear of voters, and that can make a difference how they align with Trump.

[Michael Barbaro]

Fulcrum, as ever, thank you very much.

[Carl Holz]

Thanks for coming on site again. Yeah, I like it. I think it really. The verisimilitude is good.

[Michael Barbaro]

On Tuesday night, not long after we spoke with Carl, the Senate moved quickly to call a vote in support of the Epstein bill, which now puts the bill on track to pass the Senate by Wednesday morning. If that happens, the bill could be signed into law by President Trump by the end of the day. We'll be right back.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Hi, I'm Ivan Penn. I'm an energy reporter for the New York Times. I think a lot of people take electricity for granted, but it's an essential piece of some of the biggest stories right now. The rise of artificial intelligence, the threat of climate change, and the real challenges that everyday people are facing with increasing electric bills. I spend my days talking to experts, sometimes traveling to really remote places and investigating the role that energy plays in these huge issues. I'm just one of hundreds and hundreds of journalists at the Times, experts in what they cover, who carry the same level of commitment to their reporting. And that's the beauty of the New York Times. We're all working together to help you better understand and make sense of the world today. So if that sounds like something that connects with you and you're not a subscriber yet, you can go to nytimes.com subscribe.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here'S what else you need to know today. During a meeting in the Oval Office on Tuesday, President Trump offered the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, lavish praise and dismissed a report from U.S. intelligence officials who found that bin Salman was responsible for the murder of a journalist. From the Washington Post, Jamal Khashoggi.

[Annie Carney]

Your loyal Highness, the US Intelligence concluded that you orchestrated the brutal murder of a journalist. 9.

[Michael Barbaro]

Eleven families are furious that you are.

[Annie Carney]

Here in the Oval Office.

[Michael Barbaro]

Why should Americans. Who are you with? And the same to you, Mr. President. Now, who are you with?

[Annie Carney]

I'm with ABC News, sir. You're with who?

[Michael Barbaro]

ABC News, sir. Fake news. ABC Fake news.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

One of the worst.

[Michael Barbaro]

Before Ben Solomon could answer a question about the murder from a reporter, Trump interjected and defended the crown prince. You're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen.

[Carl Holz]

But he knew nothing about it, and.

[Michael Barbaro]

We can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guests.

[Carl Holz]

By asking a question like that.

[Michael Barbaro]

And in a major blow to President Trump's efforts to redistrict his way to victory in the midterm elections, a federal judge has blocked Texas's newly redrawn congressional map from going into effect. Over the summer, at Trump's direction, Texas Republicans had redrawn their maps to create up to five new Republican leaning seats. But Two federal judges, including one appointed by Trump, found that the new maps were unconstitutional. Texas Governor Greg Abbott said he plans to appeal the ruling to the Supreme Court. Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley, Mary Wilson and Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Rob Zypko. Contains music by Marian Lozano, Pat McCusker and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Special thanks to Julie Davis, Megan Minero, Robert Jimison and Edward Isaac Dover. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Bobaro. See you tomorrow.