From Resistance to Reflection

Summary

The Daily Podcast Summary
Episode: Processing...
Release Date: November 19, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Daily, hosted by Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise, Lindsey Garrison engages in a poignant conversation with Vanessa Ruble and T. Marie Hannibal. They delve into the evolution of the Resistance movement following Donald Trump's re-election in 2024, reflecting on past activism and contemplating the future of women's rights and social justice in America.

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1. The Birth of the Women's March and Leadership Transition

Vanessa Ruble shares her transformative journey from leading a music industry company in New York City to becoming a pivotal figure in the Women's March. The shock of Trump's 2016 victory galvanized her:
"There was nothing like it. I could not believe someone who had been accused of rape and sexual harassment and so on and so forth. People would rather have that person in the White House." [03:03]

Initially organized through a modest Facebook group named "Women's March," the movement quickly expanded under her leadership.
"I became one of the leaders of that page and what you could call Women's March first. And I started pulling people in to organize who I knew could make this happen." [04:32]

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2. The 2016 Women's March: A Catalyst for Change

The Women's March on January 2017 marked a historic moment of unity and activism. Vanessa recalls the overwhelming support:
"When I stood on that stage, it was like an absolute wave of pink coming over. Capitol Hill was astonishing." [08:01]

Melissa Clark describes the grassroots mobilization:
"I started Women's March, Pennsylvania. It took a life of its own... it was like this wedding, particularly amongst women, but also with our male allies." [07:02]

The movement spurred the creation of organizations like March On, which played a significant role in increasing women's political representation, leading to record numbers of women elected in the 2018 midterm elections.
"Women running and women winning was a direct result of the Women's March." [12:26]

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3. Disillusionment Following Trump's Re-Election

The unexpected re-election of Donald Trump in 2024 left activists grappling with disappointment and introspection.

Vanessa expresses profound disillusionment:
"The outcome of this election is not what we wanted, not what we fought for, not what we voted for. The light of America's promise will always burn bright... But by a free and fair election, this is what they want." [12:44]

T. Marie Hannibal, a retired Marine Corps gunnery sergeant, reflects on the stagnation of progress:
"At the end of the day, women are still looked at as not worthy no matter what their resumes look like." [14:05]

Melissa Clark voices her frustration over unfulfilled hopes despite active participation in various causes:
"I really believed that protest was the way to affect change... America spoke, and he won." [19:38]

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4. Contemplating the Future of Activism

Faced with repeated electoral setbacks, the speakers ponder the effectiveness of traditional protest methods and consider new avenues for advocacy.

Vanessa questions the viability of reenacting past marches:
"I don't know any organizer from the original women's march that thinks marching right now is a good idea." [21:37]

Melissa uses a restaurant analogy to illustrate her reluctance to revisit past strategies:
"Have you ever gone to a restaurant with your partner and had, like, the best meal and then you go back and it's like, it sucked? That's how I feel about the women's march right now." [22:11]

T. Marie emphasizes the need for reflection and strategic regrouping:
"There needs to be some time to reflect and regroup and really look at ourselves and say, what are we doing wrong? Where do we go from here?" [23:01]

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5. Reflections on Past Achievements and Future Directions

The conversation shifts to assessing the tangible impacts of the Resistance movement and exploring potential paths forward.

Vanessa questions the lasting changes brought by the movement:
"Did we really accomplish things? I honestly don't know." [18:29]

T. Marie highlights the exhaustion and uncertainty felt by many activists:
"What is protesting? What is putting on that cape again and getting my big old blowhorn out again? What is that going to do for us this time around?" [19:38]

Both speakers acknowledge the need for new strategies beyond traditional protests to effect meaningful change.

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6. News Update: Trump's National Emergency Declaration

In the episode's concluding segment, Sabrina Tavernise reports on President-elect Donald Trump's intention to declare a national emergency. This move aims to utilize the U.S. military for mass deportations of undocumented immigrants, responding to a Judicial Watch announcement. Trump also nominates Sean Duffy, a former Republican congressman and Fox Business host, to lead the Transportation Department, signaling his focus on tightening immigration and shaping his economic agenda.

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Notable Quotes

• Vanessa Ruble [03:03]: "I could not believe someone who had been accused of rape and sexual harassment and so on and so forth. People would rather have that person in the White House."

• T. Marie Hannibal [05:01]: "I was that child in the abortion clinic. That was me. That's my story."

• Vanessa Ruble [08:01]: "It was like an absolute wave of pink coming over. Capitol Hill was astonishing."

• Vanessa Ruble [12:44]: "The light of America's promise will always burn bright."

• T. Marie Hannibal [14:05]: "At the end of the day, women are still looked at as not worthy no matter what their resumes look like."

• Melissa Clark [19:38]: "I really believed that protest was the way to affect change... America spoke, and he won."

• Vanessa Ruble [21:37]: "I don't know any organizer from the original women's march that thinks marching right now is a good idea."

• Melissa Clark [22:11]: "I'm going to just do something else."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Daily offers a deep and introspective look into the emotions and strategic dilemmas faced by leaders of the Resistance movement in the wake of another Trump victory. Vanessa Ruble and T. Marie Hannibal provide heartfelt reflections on past achievements, current disillusionments, and the urgent need to redefine activism in pursuit of lasting social justice and women's rights in America.

Transcript

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[Interviewer]

You.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Have the capacity to do extraordinary good in the world. And so to everyone who is watching, do not despair.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

This is not a time to throw up our hands.

[Vanessa Ruble]

This is a time to roll up our sleeves.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

This is a time to organize, to.

[Interviewer]

Mobilize, and to stay engaged for the sake of freedom and justice and the future that we all know we can build together.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi and this is the Daily When Donald Trump won the presidency in 2016, it prompted an outpouring of protests, particularly by women, a movement that came to be known as the Resistance. For the past two weeks, Daily producer Lindsey Garrison has been talking to people who were part of that movement, asking them what they're doing after Trump's win this time today, what they said about the state of the resistance in the next Trump era. It's Tuesday, November 19th.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

Hello.

[Interviewer]

Hi, Vanessa.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Hi. How are you?

[Interviewer]

Hey. I'm good, I'm good. A few days after the election, I called Vanessa Ruble. She lives on five acres of desert in Southern California. So what is that that's making noise.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Right now that you're hearing in the background? You're hearing Byron, who is a parrot. Oh, really? We run a animal sanctuary. Well, actually it's a sanctuary for humans and animals. And we have a ton of different kinds of animals. So there are like emus roaming around and then we have a ton of dogs and pigs and we have a zebra.

[Interviewer]

That's pretty intense.

[Vanessa Ruble]

It is intense. It's a very different life.

[Interviewer]

It's a very different life than the one Vanessa was leading eight years ago when she was living in New York City running a company in the music industry and thought the country was about to elect its first woman president.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I had been watching the election with friends. There was already a party planned in Brooklyn and we had expected to go roll out to that party and celebrate with. And when things started going south, I just kept saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this can't happen. This is no way. There's no way. You know, it felt like there had been a death in the room, you know, like someone had died. And that feeling, there was nothing like it. I could not believe that the world we are living in and I could not believe someone who had been accused of rape and sexual harassment and so on and so forth. People would rather have that person in the White House. And I really do think it was because she was a woman. And then I woke up the next day and I was like, well, either I'm going to lay down and die or I'm going to do something about this. And that anger was very motivating. So, you know, women everywhere were so incredibly upset. And everyone gathered on one Facebook page first.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

It started as just a Facebook group. It started so small. It would be like 20 members starting a Facebook group.

[Vanessa Ruble]

And I became one of the leaders of that page and what you could.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

Call Women's Market first.

[Vanessa Ruble]

And I started pulling people in to organize who I knew could make this happen.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

At that time, they were looking for leadership positions. And I felt like, okay, this is what I served. This is the oath I took to this country.

[Interviewer]

T. Marie Hannibal served in the marine Corps for 20 years. She's a retired gunnery sergeant.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

I didn't go into combat for nothing. And now I'm in a space where I feel like our rights are being taken away, even here on the homeland. So what was the purpose of my military service? I felt like I had to do something. I think at that time, for me, it was really about the women's rights. And I'm a black woman. So not just the veteran, the black woman in me. The woman in me prior to coming into the Marine Corps, I was that 17 year old who had an abortion. I was that child in the abortion clinic. That was me. That's my story. So for me, it was more so the women's rights, if that makes sense.

[Interviewer]

So you thought under a Trump administration, there was a real possibility that abortion access could be denied.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

I knew it. That's all he pushed. That's all he talked about. And so let's talk about these things now so that it doesn't happen. Let's make sure we're advocating for these things now so that you know, it won't happen. And then I'm getting word of, okay, maybe we can protest. Okay, maybe we should protest now. What? And then from there, I started calling people that I knew in different states to kind of help me, because this was definitely new to my warehouse. And lo and behold, women veterans started stepping up and it just grew legs. It just grew into something I don't think anyone foresaw.

[Melissa Clark]

You know, I was on Facebook and I started seeing all the posts because it just had started going viral. What is this? What is this march?

[Vanessa Ruble]

And when I got the call to Action. You know, we're going to march. I was just like, wow, I know what to do with this.

[Melissa Clark]

And I started Women's March, Pennsylvania.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I'm down to mobilize my state of South Carolina to take on getting Rhode island together at some point.

[Melissa Clark]

It took a life of its own. It was like this wedding, particularly amongst women, but also with our male allies, because we don't do this without our male allies.

[Vanessa Ruble]

People felt like they had to try and do something about this. People are indignant, people are furious. I think it was rage. It was just absolute rage.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

It was just a sense of fire, like everybody was ready. It was that rent midnight type of feel.

[Melissa Clark]

Failure wasn't an option, right? Like, you just, I. I don't know. It's just like a bulldozer. And we were going to get this done.

[Vanessa Ruble]

On the day of the march, you know, I stood on that stage and I looked out, you know, and I had been kind of critical of the pussy hats because that wasn't like directly us, that was the Pussy Hat Project. And I had been like, oh, well, that's, you know, a pink hat, that's kind of lame. And, like, people felt that it wasn't inclusive because not all pussies are pink. You know, it became a little contentious. But when I got on, you know, when I stood on the stage as people came in, it was like an absolute wave of pink coming over. You know, Capitol Hill was astonishing. I mean, just imagine looking out at miles and miles and miles of people.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

It was amazing. It was just amazing. Just to see, just to see.

[Interviewer]

Did it feel like the country was kind of on your side?

[T. Marie Hannibal]

I mean, it felt good to be able to say, okay. Most Americans feel that way. So I would say, yeah, it feels good to feel like, okay. For the most part, when I meet somebody else, I can still hold my head up high.

[Vanessa Ruble]

It was just. It was otherworldly. It was sublime. And I stood on the stage that day and I thought, like, this is absolutely incredible, but we need to take this energy and harness it and create a movement. This is just the beginning.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

We'll be right back.

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[Vanessa Ruble]

New York Times app has all this.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Stuff that you may not have seen.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling. The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

[Interviewer]

And the New York Times app.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I love the easiness of swiping to.

[Interviewer]

Get to where you want to go.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I really love the great reads.

[Interviewer]

It's one of my favorite sections.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

The personalized page, the YouTube.

[Interviewer]

That one's my favorite.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Oh, here it is.

[Interviewer]

Add what interests you. I see it's the little plus button.

[Vanessa Ruble]

It made New York Times a little.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Bit more personal for me.

[Vanessa Ruble]

The cooking tab on top is really easily accessible. I'm going to try out some of these recipes I see in here. If I'm commuting, I like to jump to the audio section so that I.

[Interviewer]

Can listen as opposed to read right under the byline.

[Vanessa Ruble]

It says click here if you like.

[Interviewer]

To listen to this article.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Every tab has, like, such a different.

[Interviewer]

Level of thoughtfulness, and it just, like.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Scratches my brain in its own way.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

This app is essential.

[Interviewer]

The New York Times app, all of the times all in one place. Download the [e-mail] app.

[Vanessa Ruble]

This is just the beginning. We need to take this energy and harness it. And so the question is, what does that look like? And I think ultimately what it looked like was, you know, different groups forming different organizations to ensure that Trump did not have second term.

[Interviewer]

And after the Women's March, a number of women's rights organizations sprouted up across the nation.

[Vanessa Ruble]

March on was one of.

[Interviewer]

One of those was March On, a nonprofit that Vanessa ran.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Women Win was basically one of our slogans.

[Interviewer]

Part of the work they did was also raise money and campaign for women running for office.

[Vanessa Ruble]

And we were successful.

[Interviewer]

And two years later, women got into office in record numbers. In the 2018 midterm elections.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Women running and women winning was a direct result of the Women's March.

[Interviewer]

And in 2020, when Trump lost the election to Joe Biden, it felt like a triumph. To activists. Things were swinging back in the right.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Direction when, you know, Biden stepped down.

[Interviewer]

And then this year when Kamala Harris was announced as the new Democratic nominee for president, for many of the Women's March organizers, the feeling was electric.

[Vanessa Ruble]

There was this burst of hope and movement again and energy. And I felt that deeply. Yeah, it gave us all hope again. The outcome of this election is not what we wanted, not what we fought for, not what we voted for. But hear me when I say, hear me when I say, the light of America's promise will always burn bright. So it was. It felt again like there had been a death. And I was sitting with, you know, a couple other women, and it was just like, how has this happened again? How has this happened again? How is this the world we live in?

[T. Marie Hannibal]

Like, why would we ever go back through what happened? We saw what happened. I was so extremely hopeful. I even hosted a watch party for other women veterans. And we decked out the whole basement, put up more decorations, everything. And I hosted a watch party in 2016, and this year it felt the same way. Now, that night during Hillary's, I cried. This year, I did not cry. There was no fear. But I was so very disappointed. So we wound up, I think we closed up shop at about 11:30, they left this house. So sad. So very sad. But, yeah, it was. It didn't hit me as bad because maybe I mentally prepared for it, maybe I kind of knew it. But at the end of the day, women are still looked at as not worthy no matter what their resumes look like, no matter how many degrees, it does not matter. So I think this year I was just defeated in knowing that. Yep, we really have not progressed.

[Interviewer]

You know, you said in 2016, there was a fire.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

There was a fire, There was a fire. I feel like this year.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I feel.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

Like this year I feel like there is a defeat.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I feel like before there was hope and now it feels very dark. We were all stunned. I mean, the first time around, we were stunned. Now it's like people are catatonic.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

I feel like 2016, you were mad as hell. In my city, we're not mad as hell now. So I felt like this time was more as a slap in the face and more particularly for black women, because the first time, and I could say my military background has allowed me to see up close and personal how people felt about Hillary Clinton and these potential emails and the mistrust they had of her. But now it's somebody. Now you didn't have any kind of conspiracy or email gate to contend with. So now what's your excuse? And people gave the damnedest excuse from I just don't know enough about her to nobody in Oakland really likes her to she's locking up our own people. So it was such a mirage of excuses that tells you, in a nutshell, it really wasn't about any of those things. So this one hurt a little bit more. America did what America did. And so what do you do with that?

[Interviewer]

I mean, what do you do with that?

[T. Marie Hannibal]

My daughter is my youngest, is 20, and she voted for the first time this year. And the first thing I got back from my youngest was I'm literally sick right now. Like, physically sick. Like, how did this Happen twice. Mom like, mom, what do we do next? I have no idea. So many people have asked me, are we protesting?

[Vanessa Ruble]

What we doing?

[T. Marie Hannibal]

Put me in, coach. But I don't know what to put them into. I don't even know if I want to get back out there and protest.

[Interviewer]

And why don't you know whether you'd want to get out there and protest again this time?

[T. Marie Hannibal]

Because what did I change the first time? I don't know if I can really say we achieved a goal. We may have slowed some things down, but I don't know if we really changed history. I don't know. If had we not done that, would that have changed the trajectory of what happened during his presidency. Would it have been worse? So those are questions I kind of ask myself. But did we really accomplish things? I honestly don't know. And I'm just tired. So I gotta ask myself, what is protesting? What is putting on that cape again and getting my big old blowhorn out again? What is that going to do for us this time around? When it did nothing the first time.

[Melissa Clark]

I really believed that protest was the way to affect change. I mean, I was. I got into Moms Demand Action, really active in that for, you know, responsible gun ownership. And I was there protesting for the Kavanaugh hearings. And guess what? It still all happened, right? Kavanaugh still got election. Kids are still getting killed in schools. Roe versus Wade still got reversed. Here we are eight years later, and not only did Trump win, but he won the popular vote. America spoke, and he won.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I mourn for the America that I thought I knew. I thought our country wanted different things than him. But by a free and fair election, this is what they want. Whereas before we can say we were the majority, this is not what the country wants, and we will stand against it. We don't have that mandate this time around. And at this point, fighting this administration is fighting a Democratic election. Honestly, my first reactions was, you know what, America, pardon my French, but fuck it. If that's how you feel about it, have it. America, you voted for this. Buckle up. It's going to get bad. And I'm going to say, I told you so.

[Interviewer]

Would you consider marching again? Is there talk about marching?

[Vanessa Ruble]

Yeah, and it's not going over real well.

[Melissa Clark]

I know women's march is planning a march on January 18th. They're saying it's the people's march. Well, you know what? The people. In my mind, the people voted for Trump.

[Vanessa Ruble]

When I watched Kamala Harris concession speech, people were saying, like, how inspiring it was don't ever give up. Because she said that.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

I'm like, no, this is.

[Vanessa Ruble]

I don't.

[T. Marie Hannibal]

No, no, no, no.

[Vanessa Ruble]

At a certain point, no, you have to give up. Like, I don't have the energy or any battery left in me to do anything other than to fight for myself. And to answer your question, for me personally, no. I don't know any organizer from the original women's march that thinks marching right now is a good idea.

[Interviewer]

And why don't you think it's a good idea?

[Vanessa Ruble]

To me, it kind of feels like trying to recreate something that should never be recreated or should have never to have been recreated.

[Melissa Clark]

I don't know.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Have you ever.

[Melissa Clark]

This probably a stupid analogy, but let me just bring it up. Have you ever gone to a restaurant with your partner and had, like, the best meal and then you go back and it's like, it sucked? That's kind of the way I feel about the women's march right now. It's like I can never recreate for me what that moment was in history and in my life, and I don't want to. And now, now I'm gonna just do something else. I'm going more. A little more inward so that, yeah, I guess I'm. I guess I'm trying a different restaurant.

[Vanessa Ruble]

There needs to be some time to reflect and regroup and really look at ourselves and say, what are we doing wrong? Like, where do we go from here?

[Interviewer]

And what. What do you plan on doing instead?

[Vanessa Ruble]

I mean, that's really hard. That is the question, right? Like, well, what do you do? I don't know, but the answer is probably not right before us. If we jump to the conclusion right away and say, okay, well, then we need to do X, Y and Z. Like, are we not doing a disservice to the lesson that we should learn from this? Like, maybe we need to be more thoughtful about it and examine how we may have played a role in it. So it's the time to reflect and regroup, but it's not the time to march. I don't think that marching will do any good. That's not the direction we should go in.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

We'll be right back.

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[Melissa Clark]

Open it's Melissa Clark from New York.

[Vanessa Ruble]

Times Cooking, and I'm in the kitchen with some of our team. Nikita Richardson what are you making for Thanksgiving this year? I'm making the cheesy Hasselback potato gratin featuring layers of thinly cut potatoes. Very easy, but it's a real showstopper. Genevieve Co, what about you? I'm actually doing a mushroom Wellington puff pastry wrapped around this delicious savory mushroom filling. Arguably as stunning, if not more so, than a turkey. No matter what kind of Thanksgiving you're cooking, you can find the recipes you [e-mail] thanksgiving.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Here'S what else you should know today. On Monday, President elect Donald Trump confirmed that he intends to declare a national emergency and use the US Military in some form to assist in his plans for mass deportations of undocumented immigrants. Trump was responding to a post made by the head of the conservative group Judicial Watch that said Trump's administration would, quote, declare a national emergency and use military assets to address illegal immigration through a mass deportation program. On his social media platform Truth Social, Trump responded with the comment, true, Congress has granted presidents broad power to declare national emergencies at their discretion. And Trump nominated Sean Duffy, a former Republican congressman from Wisconsin and Fox Business host and whose wife, Rachel Campos Duffy is a Fox News host. As his choice to lead the Transportation Department, Trump continued to deliberate over candidates for several high level positions, including Treasury Secretary, a post that will be crucial to his economic agenda. Today's episode was produced by Lindsey Garrison with help from Sidney Harper and Eric Krupke. It was edited by Devin Taylor, Ben Calhoun and Lexi Diao, research assistants by Susan Lee. Contains original music by Dan Powell, Rowan Nimisto, Elisha Etoup and Marian Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for the Daily I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.

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This podcast is supported by Meta. Meta's open source AI models are available to all, not just the few. Because they're open source, small businesses, students and more can download and build with them at no cost. Learn more about the [e-mail] open.