Gavin Newsom on the L.A. Protests, Trump’s Response and Why It’s a Defining Moment for Democracy

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Gavin Newsom on the L.A. Protests, Trump’s Response and Why It’s a Defining Moment for Democracy"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Daily
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Episode Title: Gavin Newsom on the L.A. Protests, Trump’s Response and Why It’s a Defining Moment for Democracy
• Release Date: June 12, 2025
• Hosts: Michael Barbaro, Rachel Abrams, Natalie Kitroeff

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Daily, California Governor Gavin Newsom joins host Michael Barbaro to discuss the recent unrest in Los Angeles, President Donald Trump's controversial deployment of federal troops, and the broader implications for American democracy. The conversation delves into the dynamics between state and federal authorities, immigration policies, and the personal challenges faced by political leaders in turbulent times.

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Current Situation in Los Angeles

Overview of Protests and Federal Deployment

Governor Newsom begins by addressing the current state of protests in downtown Los Angeles, describing them as "nominal" with "some pockets of modest activity" spanning "four or five square blocks" (02:17). He highlights the minimal nature of the protests compared to the significant presence of federal troops.

Deployment of Federal Troops

Newsom criticizes President Trump's decision to deploy 2,000 National Guard troops to Los Angeles, labeling it a "brazen abuse of power" (00:31). He points out the inefficiency of the deployment, noting that only about 315 troops were mission-tasked shortly after arrival, with the majority remaining idle without essential supplies (03:32).

“He [Trump] conceived of this deployment without any coordination with local law enforcement. It was purely theatrical.” (03:32)

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Immigration Raids and Community Impact

Federal Immigration Raids

Governor Newsom expresses deep concern over the surge in immigration raids conducted by federal authorities across California, including targets like home depots, car washes, and clinics (02:58). He underscores the disruption these raids cause to everyday life and the fear it instills in communities.

“People are disappearing, disappearing. They don't know where they are... We have a 15-year-old who came home crying because she was told her daddy was getting arrested.” (15:51)

Coordination with ICE

Despite being a sanctuary state, Newsom emphasizes California’s cooperation with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in apprehending dangerous criminals. He differentiates state-level collaboration from local sanctuary policies.

“We coordinate and we collaborate with them over 10,500 times since I've been governor to go after people that are here that commit life crimes.” (28:58)

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Conversation with President Trump

Accusations of Lying

Newsom recounts his brief and cordial conversation with President Trump, asserting that the President lied during their interaction. He vehemently calls Trump a “stone cold liar” and criticizes his inconsistent and aggressive tactics (09:06).

“He lied. Stone cold liar. Don't think for a second he told the truth.” (09:06)

Lack of Coordination and Surprise Deployment

He describes the deployment of troops as a sudden and uncoordinated move that left California officials scrambling to protect the National Guard rather than effectively managing the protests (10:15).

“He [Trump] begins the day with that and then talks about the National Guard and starts making up all these things he claimed he told me about.” (10:50)

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Defining Moment for Democracy

Governor's Speech Against Trump’s Actions

In his speech, Newsom labels the use of military forces for domestic law enforcement as a "red line" crossed, emphasizing the threat it poses to American democracy. He highlights the fear instilled in citizens and the potential erosion of fundamental rights (13:44).

“Sending fear and chills up the spines of law-abiding citizens... I don’t know what else you know.” (13:44)

Call to Action

Newsom urges Americans not to remain silent, framing silence as complicity in the erosion of democracy. He encourages active citizenship and peaceful protest as antidotes to fear and authoritarianism (18:43).

“What he [Trump] wants is our silence. And if we're silent about that, then we are complicit as we see these fundamental rights erode.” (18:43)

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Navigating Political Polarization

Engagement with Opponents

Despite the tensions, Newsom maintains a stance of engaging with political opponents, including conservative figures like Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon. He believes in the importance of civil conversations and learning from those with differing viewpoints (24:08).

“A lot of folks don't know me, they think they know me... I have enormous respect for people I disagree with.” (24:08)

Challenges Within the Democratic Party

He acknowledges internal challenges, noting criticism from his own party and legislature regarding his collaboration with ICE. Nonetheless, Newsom remains committed to his approach of balancing law enforcement with empathy for immigrants (28:58).

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Policy Stance on Immigration

Balancing Enforcement and Compassion

Governor Newsom advocates for targeting violent criminals within the immigrant community while extending empathy to those seeking to live peacefully. He rejects blanket opposition to immigration enforcement, emphasizing responsible and civil actions (28:58).

“I have deep empathy for someone who's been here 10, 15, 20 years... But get rid of the criminals, I have no problem with that.” (28:58)

Critique of Federal Actions

He criticizes the Trump administration’s use of raids and federal troops as disproportionate and counterproductive, exacerbating fear and instability within communities (31:30).

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Future Outlook and Resolution

Legal and Moral Authority

Newsom expresses confidence in California's legal strategies to counteract federal overreach, stressing the importance of moral authority over formal authority. He believes in the resilience and economic strength of California as pivotal in resisting federal pressures (34:16).

“The more you exercise your moral authority, the more abundant it becomes.” (33:37)

Hope for Democracy

He remains hopeful that active citizen engagement and adherence to the rule of law will uphold democracy, even in the face of aggressive federal actions (35:27).

“How this ends, American people stand up. How this ends, the rule of law triumphs.” (35:25)

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Conclusion

Governor Gavin Newsom's interview on The Daily offers a deep dive into the intersection of state and federal authority, the complexities of immigration enforcement, and the fragile state of American democracy under Trump's administration. Through his candid remarks and impassioned calls to action, Newsom paints a vivid picture of the challenges faced by California and the broader nation in preserving democratic principles amidst political turmoil.

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Notable Quotes:

• “California may be first, but it clearly will not end here. Other states are next. Democracy is next and a defining moment.” (00:42)
• “He [Trump] wants most is your fealty, your silence, to be complicit in this moment. Do not give in to him.” (00:55)
• “I have not heard from the president since you gave that speech... He called for my arrest [15:34].”
• “Sending fear and chills up the spines of law abiding citizens... I don’t know what else you know.” (13:44)
• “What he [Trump] wants is our silence. And if we're silent about that, then we are complicit...” (18:43)

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Note: This summary omits advertisements, introductory remarks, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussion between Governor Gavin Newsom and Michael Barbaro.

Transcript

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[Michael Barbaro]

New York Times, I'm Michael Balbaro.

[Interviewer]

This is the Daily.

[Gavin Newsom]

I want to say a few words about the events of the last few days.

[Michael Barbaro]

California's Governor Gavin Newsom says that President Trump's decision to send federal troops into Los Angeles is a, quote, brazen abuse of power.

[Gavin Newsom]

California may be first, but it clearly will not end here. Other states are next. Democracy is next and a defining moment.

[Michael Barbaro]

For the Democratic Party and American democracy.

[Gavin Newsom]

What Donald Trump wants most is your fealty, your silence, to be complicit in this moment. Do not give in to him.

[Michael Barbaro]

Today I sit down with the governor for a conversation about Trump illegal immigration, the protests, and how he thinks that the standoff in LA comes to an end. It's Thursday, June 12th.

[Gavin Newsom]

1, 2, 3. How's this? You guys hear me?

[Interviewer]

Yes, Governor, thank you for coming on the Daily. We appreciate it.

[Gavin Newsom]

My pleasure. Thank you. I've never heard of it. I had to look it up.

[Interviewer]

Fantastic.

[Michael Barbaro]

We're gonna cut that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Congrats, by the way.

[Interviewer]

Okay, Governor Newsom, I wanna start by asking you to describe the situation right now on the ground in Los Angeles, both in terms of protests and the deployment of federal troops. Let's start, Governor, with the protests.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, nominal. I'm literally here at the Reagan Building. I'm in downtown la. Just be another typical day, but there's some pockets of modest activity in this four or five square blocks. That's it, under control. We had 16, 10 police officers patrolling last night, 227 arrests. And so there's certainly more activity in the evening. But the activity today, that's deeply alarming are all these raids that are happening all across the state of California, Tulare county and Fresno county and Ventura county here in Los Angeles, at home depots and car washes today, they're going to clinics where people are trying to get health care, take care of their families.

[Interviewer]

You're describing immigration raids by federal.

[Gavin Newsom]

Immigration raids, yeah. Stopping people when they're in their cars, checking papers. All across now this country, not just here, across our state.

[Interviewer]

We're gonna talk about those raids in a moment, but let me check in on the state of the military deployment ordered by President Trump in Los Angeles. From what you're saying, Protests at this hour, 2:44pm Eastern Time on Wednesday are minimal, nominal. What is the state of the military deployment in LA?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, the president a number of days ago commanded 2,000 National Guard. I want to put that in perspective. California, I command 18,000. So 2,000 National Guard, the 79th Infantry. Two days later, there were about 315 that actually were mission tasked. The rest were sitting around about 1700 for days. You saw them sitting quite literally on the ground without fuel, without water, without food, without training. So you had about 50 to 100 National Guard out there last night we had 1600 local law enforcement, including 700 that I directly command under the California Highway Patrol. Specialty units that were trained and are trained for these activities. They're the ones making the arrest, not the National Guard. Today we estimate that now they've mission tasked about 1,000 of the original 2,000 to do support work or direct, it's hard to tell. And you saw photos. Pete Hexet just tweeted out someone getting arrested handcuffed with the National Guard. They had their guns drawn. Based upon the Secretary of Defense, it looks like they're right there at these raids.

[Interviewer]

You seem to be saying, Governor, that these troops are not doing all that much. And it's the Los Angeles and State Highway Patrol officials who are the ones bringing this situation under control. And to the degree that federal troops are doing anything, you see them doing something related to the raids, not the protests.

[Gavin Newsom]

I want to step back. I revere these guys. I've had the privilege of a lifetime to be their commander in chief. I've got hundreds of them down at the border for years and years. I put them down at the border. We're doing counter drug operations. We have what we call these rattlesnake crews. These are the ones doing forest management. They're raking the forest, preparing for wildfire season.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

These are men and women. This is important for people to know that actually work for local law enforcement agencies. In many cases, they're police officers in their day jobs. So they've been pulled off the border. Three quarters of our rattlesnake teams doing vegetation management have now been redeployed and they've been taken out of police departments. And the first night they were deployed, our police officers had to protect the National Guard. They became a destination for the protests and it was local police that actually had to protect them. That's how ridiculous this whole thing is. This is theater. It's madness. It's unconstitutional. I've said it's immoral. It puts people's lives at risk and they're using these brave men and women as pawns. That said, the new operation seems to be more tactically focused on active ICE raids. And now they're being utilized in a very different posture, which is clearly a violation of the law.

[Interviewer]

I wonder, Governor Newsom, if you can tell the story from your perspective as somebody very much at the center of this, all of how we got to this place. I want to take you back for just a moment to late last week, there were a series of raids. Those raids seemed to create a chain of communication among people who were upset about them that led to these protests. And we ended up all seeing the images of what those protests in some cases, led to. Right? Folks waving Mexican flags. We had waymos, the driverless taxi cars on fire. There was some vandalism. There was some looting. In your mind, did these protests ever get out of control?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, that looting was unacceptable. There have been hundreds and hundreds of arrests, including, As I said, 227 arrests last night. They're reviewing tape. They're making their case, created a unit in the district Attorney's office. They should be prosecuted to full extent of the law. There's some bad people doing terrible things, and they need to be called out, and they need to be held to account. Period. Full stop. Unacceptable. Law enforcement did make those arrests. Hundreds and hundreds of additional people beyond just the227 last night have been arrested, and many, many more will be arrested. It's concentrated in just a small complex in a very small footprint in a very large downtown in Los Angeles.

[Interviewer]

How small? I mean, just for those people who aren't as familiar with Los Angeles, obviously, as you are, how small.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're talking about a complex of a few buildings, and you're talking about a few blocks. And I don't say this lightly. I've been down here the last four days, and so I'm right downtown myself, and I wish I could pull the camera and you can take a look at what's going on. And there are tons and tons of peaceful protesters. But those images were disgraceful. Those images of those waymos the actions of a few people were disgraceful, and they were weaponized by the Trump administration, and they've exacerbated the problem. Those people should be ashamed of themselves, and they will be held to account.

[Interviewer]

You're saying local officials know how to deal with this kind of unrest. You're not saying that there wasn't unrest?

[Gavin Newsom]

Of course.

[Interviewer]

And I want to talk about, in this chronology, the moment you end up speaking with President Trump, because it's Pretty close to the moment that he decides that he's going to send the National Guard into la, that he's going to federalize it. Does that come up in it?

[Gavin Newsom]

Didn't appear to me. When I talked to him, he never brought it up, period, Full stop. He lied about. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You claim he lied.

[Gavin Newsom]

He lied. My mother and dad's grave. I don't mess around when I say this. He lied. Stone cold liar. Don't think for a second he told the truth. He lied.

[Interviewer]

What did he say?

[Gavin Newsom]

Continues to lie. I'm not going to talk about a private conversation with the President of the United States out of respect, and I value that. And it was. I'll just say this. It was an incredibly cordial conversation and there were a number of issues that were discussed. I'll remind you, at the time, he was in a process Friday of defunding California. He was looking to defund the university system. And so our conversation was about the activities that occurred on Friday. It was brief. We were five seconds into it when I was talking about a few arrests, and he immediately pivoted to all of these other topics. That was it. Period.

[Interviewer]

And so what, Governor, were you thinking when you learned, I guess within 24 hours, maybe even less than that of having been on the phone with him? Perhaps this was on his mind, perhaps it wasn't, that he had suddenly federalized the National Guard over which you preside, and was gonna deploy them on the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Streets of la, Came completely out of.

[Interviewer]

Left field, no warning, no heads up, no nothing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Nothing. Let me color it in a little bit more, please. Before I talked to the President, obviously talked to the Mayor about what was occurring down there. I was in Northern California at the time and I was connected with Susie Wiles, the President's Chief of Staff. And we exchanged a number of text messages back and forth about the imperative of collaborating and working through all of this. Then I talked to the President. Hours later, to your point, I wake up and I'm new scum again.

[Interviewer]

New Scum is the nickname he gives you?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, it's the President of the United States calling someone scum, New scum. Which is, for what it's worth, what I think a seventh grader used to call me on Baltimore street in Corn Madera, California. He begins the day with that and then talks about the National Guard and then starts making up all these things he claimed he told me about, which honestly starts to disturb me on a different level, that maybe he actually believed he said those things.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Gavin Newsom]

And he's not all there. I Mean that I wasn't seeing.

[Interviewer]

He's not all there. You just said, I don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's honestly, he literally, a few days later talked about a conversation he had with me after he announced his 700 US Marines to be deployed for domestic law enforcement in the United States of America. It's blatantly against law. He claimed he had another conversation with me.

[Interviewer]

So once this deployment is announced, you said that it was unnecessary, you went further and you said that the National Guard, this is before the Marines were deployed, would inflame the situation. Is that in your mind what happened?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes. I mean, that's not my assessment. That's assessment of all law enforcement officers and officials that we were meeting with on a consistent basis at the Emergency Operations Center. They said this is exactly the opposite of what, by the way, none of them were coordinated with.

[Interviewer]

Well, what's the evidence of it?

[Gavin Newsom]

What do you mean evidence? They were a destination for protesters. They became a destination. What's the evidence? We had to. And I'll remind you, I'll just repeat what I said. Yeah, we had to defend the National Guard. We had to use our own law enforcement to protect them.

[Interviewer]

That's the evidence.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, just think about how perverse that is. And then he announces another 2,000, which are more law forcement officers that are being taken off the street. More people are being taken away from the border, no longer doing that public safety work because of his actions.

[Interviewer]

Well, I think, Governor, this brings us to Tuesday night when you decide to deliver a major speech about all this. And in that speech you describe what the President did, the deployment of these troops, based on the situation on the ground and the, in your mind, the disproportionate nature of that as a defining moment for your state, for the country and for our democracy. Why, in your estimation, is this moment the moment to call the President out as you have, and to suggest that some Rubicon has perhaps been crossed when it comes to, and these are your words, an abuse of power, authoritarianism. Because there have been a lot of moments over the past few months in which the President has used his power in new and at times extraordinary ways. I'm thinking of his pursuit of law firms, universities, at times even the federal judiciary, when it has ruled against him and he has disliked it. So why for you, is this the defining moment and all of those things.

[Gavin Newsom]

I called out last night in that speech. So I agree with you. I think it's a red line when you're using military that are trained for foreign incursions to do domestic law enforcement in American cities. I think that's a red line. If that's not a red line, I don't know what red lines mean. This is the United States military being used for domestic law enforcement. Police not allowed to police. Now we have to address the issue of the military coming in and militarizing the streets of the United States of America. Sending fear and chills up the spines of law abiding citizens that are scared to death now of going to graduations to see their kids graduate, scared to death to walk down the street to get groceries, scared to death to get a dental appointment or go down a community clinic to check in on their fever. That's a red line crossed. I don't know what the hell else you know, Excuse my language, but it's to find a serious and profound moment in American history from my humble perspective.

[Interviewer]

Have you heard from the president since you gave that speech, since you essentially accused him of operating outside the bounds of democracy?

[Gavin Newsom]

I have not. And I'm someone that some of your viewers and listeners may know have no problem meeting with people and talking to people I disagree with.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Including the president himself. As I said, we had a very cordial conversation on Friday night. It wasn't the first conversation I've had. I was out here on the tarmac with him or in the midst of the fires as he was calling for my removal of office. I mean, he called for my arrest the other day. President of the United States calling for the arrest of a political opponent who happens to be governor. And I would pick up the phone in a nanosecond if the president trusted to talk.

[Interviewer]

What did you make of the fact that he did seem to suggest that you should perhaps be arrested?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, may. You know, I guess I'm being fair. I didn't even call that a red line. That might be a red line for some people listening.

[Interviewer]

That wasn't the red line for you?

[Gavin Newsom]

No. Because I can handle that. I just can't handle my city being torn asunder. I can't handle my country being torn asunder. I got four young kids. I have a 15 year old who quite literally came home from school crying because she was told on our last day of school, God is my witness, because she was told her daddy was getting arrested.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Gavin Newsom]

And I said, honey, that doesn't matter. What matters is what's happening with the military out on the streets. I can handle that. I'll be fine.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Gavin Newsom]

But I'm worried about you. I'm worried about this country. I'm worried about everything we've taken for granted and fought so hard for disappearing overnight.

[Interviewer]

I'm sensing some real emotion in your voice here.

[Gavin Newsom]

I just, I was just downtown meeting with people who literally, this is mass panic for people, good people. I was sitting there talking to some community leaders. One of the young girls gets up, says she looks at her phone in a panic. She goes, my mom, my mom runs out and I find out that there was people knocking on the doors. Her mom was undocumented, been here for years and years and years. She was, was born in this country and she's having this experience. You had a nine, nine month pregnant woman arrested. People are disappearing. People are disappearing, disappearing. They don't know where they are. They can't find them in the United States of America. They can't find them at the detention facility. We're finding out people are in Texas, people are in Louisiana. No access to counsel from their original.

[Interviewer]

Place in Los Angeles, From Donald Trump.

[Gavin Newsom]

From Stephen Miller, from Kristi Noem. Kristi Noem, who just months ago was sickened by the notion that Biden, there was some rumor may come in and federalize her National Guard. And she said, what about freedom? What about states rights? That same Kristi Noem, it's serious. These are authoritarian tendencies. This is thuggish behavior.

[Interviewer]

We're going to return to these immigrants a little bit later in our conversation. I want to finish with your speech in which you did everything we just talked about and you called on Americans to stand up to Trump right now. And you even suggest that to not stand up to Trump is to be complicit. And I wonder what situation that puts you in. It seems like a potentially tricky one, right? I mean, you want protesters to be peaceful. You want those who commit violence to be prosecuted. You're now simultaneously asking people to fight back against Trump, presumably in places like la, but perhaps not just la, perhaps in Chicago, San Antonio, New York, on and on. Are those messages in conflict?

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't know if they're in conflict. I mean, society becomes how we behave. We are a behavior. I think people that care about this country, people care about knowledge and culture and history. People care about their kids and grandkids, or dare I say, people care about the Constitution of the United States and the rule of law. I think we need to wake up that what he wants is our silence. And if we're silent about that, then we are complicit as we see these fundamental rights erode. And so I'm not trying to call people out. Let's not over. Read what I'm saying. We were very explicit about peaceful protests, very explicit about calling out those criminal elements. But I also think we need to be very explicit about the moment we're living in in the United States of America. It's shock and awe. It's overwhelming. And I just want folks to understand that we will lose this democracy. It's 141 days. We will lose it so much faster than people think if we are silent. And so I just pray that people don't give in. And this was the final words I said to cynicism, to their own fear and anxiety, that they're the antidote to that as long as they don't give up.

[Interviewer]

It just occurs to me that the protests in LA were peaceful until they weren't. Right? And in calling for more, potentially protests, doesn't that necessarily invite more opportunities for violence?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I guess we can all just go home and just watch this whole thing, this whole extraordinary, you know, I said it. This endearing idea that our founding fathers, the best of Roman Republic and Greek democracy co equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, the rule of law, completely erode. That's an option. I mean, that's a choice. I'm not going to make that choice. And I was calling for people that may think more like me to say, don't make that choice. He wants you to make that choice. The reason he threatened the arrest, the reason he's so aggressive, wants to defund California, is we punch above our weight. We're the fourth largest economy in the world. We continue to thrive despite him. And his entire theory of his case is contradicted by our success in our resilience. He doesn't like the resistance coming from California. He doesn't like the fact that we've sued him 24 times. He doesn't like the fact that I push back.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

You can't work with him. You can only work for him. I've tried to work with him, my gosh, I did during COVID I continue to try, but it's challenging. And so I want to challenge people to express themselves in a peaceful way. And we're seeing it across the country. It's not a novel theory to stand up and step up. It's a foundational constitutional theory that's been practiced for hundreds of years. And I don't want it to disappear.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

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[Interviewer]

Governor I wanna zoom out now for just a bit. You have been on a pretty interesting journey since the election. You've been openly searching for the right way to navigate the second Trump presidency. And it started with a message of conciliation, a real willingness, as you said, to work with the president, an interest in cooperation. And beyond that, you expressed a real curiosity about what was at the center of Trump's appeal. You spoke on your podcast to Charlie Kirk, to Steve Bannon. Has the past week. Have these events made you rethink what's possible in that vein?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I also spoke to someone who was active participant trying to get me recalled, Newt Gingrich, and someone who's actively participating in these ICE raids, Dr. Phil. This last week on the podcast, Dr.

[Interviewer]

Phil went embedded with some of the raids.

[Gavin Newsom]

I just think it's incredibly important.

[Interviewer]

So you're still doing it in the midst of this, you're saying reaching out to those who are not on your side?

[Gavin Newsom]

I think a little humility, little grace, I think we're all a little bit better off learning from people we disagree with and having civil conversations. I'm trying to have civil conversations. I know it offends a lot of people. I get all that. It's just not who I am. I have civil conversations with the president again, including just a few days ago.

[Interviewer]

What have you learned, especially when it comes to the question of undocumented immigration.

[Gavin Newsom]

And this may offend some people, that we all want to be loved and we all need to be loved and respected. We all want to be respected, we all want to be heard. I don't know that we're all human and that we have deep disagreements. It's a strange thing to say the midst of all this, where I'm being threatened with arrest and calling out these authoritarian tendencies of Donald Trump to say this, but, you know, at a certain point, divorce is not an option. We got to come back together. And so that's, by the way, that's just me being who I am. A lot of folks don't know me, they think they know me. There's a caricature of me. But this is what I do in private. I have enormous respect for people I disagree with. I'm not naive. You think? I think I'm convinced them of something. But maybe if I convince them of anything is that, you know, at least I have the strength of character to listen to someone I disagree with. If there's nothing else, maybe it's just that. And I'm learning from these guys. I learned a lot. It's interesting learning from Charlie Kirk and how he organized the troops for Trump. I think Democrats can learn from that. And some people may reject that and say, we're doing great Democrats. We're just, we're morally superior, we're smarter, and eventually people will figure it out. Well, right now I'm trying to figure out how to keep this democracy up and deal with the militarization of my streets because this guy is running this country right now without any oversight because we lost the House, we lost the Senate, and I don't wanna lose my country, and I'm counting on the damn courts.

[Interviewer]

Well, to that point, one of the ways that President Trump has reliably outmaneuvered his opponents and gotten to the place you just described, where he controls the White House, the Senate, House of Representatives, and faces very few checks on his power, is by putting Democrats in very difficult situations where they can end up on what looks like the wrong side of a polarizing issue in a very public way. And it can be argued, and obviously, I want to know what you think about this, that Trump is doing that to you and California Democrats right now, given the dynamic he has created and your response. So how in this situation. Let me just explain what I mean, do you end up, Governor, not appearing to be on the side of protesters who have at times been violent and against the deportation of illegal immigrants?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I think we're trying to answer that in real time together. I think. Let me address this by taking a broader view. They've been shape shifting the conversation for years and years and years. Everything with three letters, crt, dei, esg, irs, doj. They've weaponized. They are shape shifting the conversation. They're weaponizing Grievance, and we continue to chase it. Democrats, we continue to be on the back end of all of this. They've been winning for years and years and years. And so we've got to get on the offense, we've got to disabuse ourselves that we can continue down the path we're on of communication and engagement. Look, we all live in these bubbles, this filter bubble online, and obviously just complete bullshit and propaganda coming from Fox. I mean, what a joke. And total manipulation of facts, truth, and the distrust that they sow. So I'm not naive about all the folks that are watching those networks and how they feel about this. I think you're right. They feel like, ha, ha, we own the libs. They're playing right in. This is exactly what we want. Trump's gonna look strong. He's gonna be out there in his little birthday suit on Saturday and he's gonna do his dictator Kim Jong Un parade and, you know, try to one up Putin. So Putin feels threatened, weakness. That's all that is, is masquerading as strikes. And, you know, I get that. I'm not naive about that. But I'm not backing down. And I'm gonna continue to push back and I'm gonna stay on the offense. And that's why I go on Fox. That's why I meet with these guys.

[Interviewer]

Well, to the point of Democrats trying to meet people where they are, one issue where Republicans keep winning in the Trump era is immigration. And Democrats seem to many Americans a little slippery on this subject. So I wanna pin you down directly. Where do you stand and where should the Democratic Party stand on the question of illegal immigration? Who should be allowed to stay and who should be deported? You have expressed in this conversation a lot of sympathy for those who were caught up in the raids across California over the past few days.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I have no sympathy for folks that commit violent criminal acts. And let me give you a proof point. There's not a governor you will meet with that can say what I'm about to say. And I've been criticized by my party, my legislature on multiple occasions has tried to usurp my authority to coordinate and collaborate with ICE, which I've done over 10,500 times since I've been governor to go after people that are here that commit life crimes. We coordinate and we collaborate with them. We've been doing that for years and years and years. You're talking to a governor that put almost 400 National Guard down at the border. I mentioned a moment ago, Donald Trump has Taken our National Guard off the border and he's now moving them into the streets of la.

[Interviewer]

But LA does not cooperate with ice. It's a sanctuary city.

[Gavin Newsom]

You have sanctuary cities that are different than the framework and posture at the state level. There are different rules and regulations going back to decades and decades.

[Interviewer]

Totally.

[Gavin Newsom]

But let me go back because I want to answer your question. You specifically asked about posture on the issue of immigration, which is broader than sanctuary. Sanctuary is a byproduct of the failure of the federal government to reform the immigration system. I'm old enough to remember the bipartisan border bill of just a few months ago that by the way, included some money for the border wall. People forget that. And so we have a strategy and pathway, but it's been weaponized and, and now people are being demonized. To the second part of your question. Yes, I have deep empathy, deep empathy for someone who's been here 10, 15, 20 years, that's living. And all they want to do is live their lives out there, is contributing and is part of our community. The vibrancy of our community being assaulted and attacked. How many kids literally are missing their graduation in the next few days because of these actions? Scared to death because grandma may get deported. And so yeah, I'm worried about our communities. But get rid of the criminals, I have no problem with that. But do it civilly, do it responsibly.

[Interviewer]

You know this. Cities like LA in not cooperating with ice, do not let them into their jails where there are undocumented criminals. Is it your position that they should? Because the understanding we have gathered here at the Times through our journalism and reporting is that because ICE can't get to some of the places they want to go to find criminals in jails in places like la, they are doing.

[Michael Barbaro]

The raids at the Home Depots.

[Interviewer]

Doing the raids that you're finding so problematic using that. Perhaps you disagree with that?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, no, I think there's some truth to that. But come on, I mean, none of us naive. They also use that as an excuse to randomly go to Home Depots, to randomly go to car washes and people that are running into neighborhoods because scared to death or. Look, LA's approach is different than the approach I took as mayor of San Francisco as Governor of California. I have a different approach than the cities, including my whole city, San Francisco. I coordinate with ICE as it relates to dangerous criminals.

[Interviewer]

Okay, beyond immigration, Governor, do you think there's a way in which by pushing back as forcefully against the administration as you clearly are right now, you're drawing more fire for your state and in turn, potentially putting the people you're saying you're trying to protect at greater risk. We've seen, you know, this what retribution looks like from this president.

[Gavin Newsom]

Come on, really? I was involved in 122. California's involved in 122 lawsuits. The prior administration, when we were, quote, unquote, getting along. I mean, no one's naive. I mean, that. Come on. Donald Trump, in the conversation on Friday, we were talking about the fact he was defunding California before he talked about.

[Interviewer]

Bringing the National Guard in and he could further defund.

[Gavin Newsom]

He was already taking these actions. He was already coming after us. I was already involved in two dozen lawsuits prior. So, come on. None of us are naive. All of us knew this was coming. And again, I was the guy playing nice with Donald Trump. Right. And this still happens. So, no, we're not fools. None of us are.

[Interviewer]

Hmm. At the end of the day, I wanna know how you think this all comes to an end. Because from where I sit, the president has greater leverage over you than you have over him.

[Gavin Newsom]

Of course, ask Elon Musk sitting there, you know, feebly apologizing. Pathetic.

[Interviewer]

The punishment can run deep and it can run fine. And so how does this lopsided battle end well, for you and California?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I just, you know, there's formal authority and there's moral authority. The more you exercise your formal authority, the less you have of it, the more you exercise your moral authority, the more abundant it becomes. And so I, I hope we're flexing some moral authority here, and I just want more expressions of that. We have plenty of formal authority. We're the size of 21 state populations combined. We're unbelievably well resourced. We provide $83.1 billion to the federal government to pay their bills, more than we receive. Compare that to the $71.1 billion taker. State like Texas, we dominate in every major industry. We punch above our weight.

[Interviewer]

Would you ever withhold or encourage Californians to withhold all that tax money?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, if you're going to threaten to take our money, yeah, we're looking at some levers. But, you know, I don't, you know, it's not the rule of Gavin, there's a rule of Don. I believe in the rule of law.

[Interviewer]

So, you know, but looking at some levers, one lever that's always been out there is that the governor of California calls for a boycott, tells people in California not to pay their federal taxes.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. I mean, that puts Those taxpayers at risk. I would never do that. Now, people can make decisions for themselves, but that should not be the policy of the state. And I don't want to lead people down that path.

[Interviewer]

So what other levers do you have? How creative are you willing to be?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I'm trying to be creative. And we're looking. And I have a team of people looking creatively. Of course, that process had about 12 hours to unfold before this process unfolded. But let me just say this. How this ends, Donald Trump stands down. How this ends, American people stand up. How this ends, the rule of law triumphs. We're going to be in court tomorrow, tro. We're requesting federal judge as it relates to our emergency order, temporary restraining order.

[Interviewer]

You're trying to sue your way out of this deployment?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I'm trying to persuade people that there is a way out of it. And it's called active, not inert citizenship. I was quoting Justice Brandeis. In a democracy, the most important office. Sorry, Don. Donald. Mr. President, it's not the office of presidency, it's office of citizen. And you know, I'm really proud of people standing up and, and these protests and people peacefully protesting. People need to see that, you know, it inspires other people and people feel like they're not alone. Again, the alternative here is if we're just quiet, if we just put our head down, maybe it will all go away. Maybe if we don't talk to people we disagree with, maybe they won't exist. You know, you got to deal with the cars that are dealt with. And right now, you're right, we may not have as strong a hand the President of the United States of America. I'm just hoping he acts like one or he reads about one and that we still have one at the end of his four years.

[Interviewer]

Well, Governor, thank you for your time. We appreciate it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thanks for having me. Foreign.

[Michael Barbaro]

To watch an extended on camera version of this interview, go to our YouTube channel yt podcasts and search for the daily. We'll be right back.

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This podcast is supported by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Cathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist, along with their guests, analyze economic developments and bring context to conversations around stocks, fixed income, the economy and more. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Interviewer]

Here'S what.

[Michael Barbaro]

Else you need to know today in the acrimonious feud between President Trump and Elon Musk. Musk has now backed down and apologized. On Wednesday morning, Musk wrote On X, the social media platform he owns, that he regretted some of what he had said last week about the president writing of his own posts on X. They went too far and Harvey Weinstein was convicted of a sex crime in Manhattan for the second time in a little more than five years, reaffirming his guilt in the eyes of New York's legal system. Weinstein's original conviction in 2020 was later overturned by New York's highest court, prompting prosecutors to retry him. The jury in that retrial acquitted Weinstein on another of the charges against him and reached no decision on a third. Today's episode was produced by Asta Chaturvedi, Rob Zypko and Olivia Natt. It was edited by Paige Cowett, Liz o' Ballin and Michael Benoit. Contains original music by by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Ruddenberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Bavaro.

[Interviewer]

See you tomorrow.

[Capital One Advertisement]

This podcast is supported by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week hosts Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Cathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist. Along with their guests, analyze economic developments and bring context to conversations around stocks, fixed income, the economy and more. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.