He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.

Summary

Summary of "He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I."

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Daily
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Episode Title: He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
• Release Date: February 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Daily, hosts Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise delve into the dramatic ousting of General Charles Q. Brown Jr., America's highest-ranking military officer, amidst a heated political climate focused on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (D.E.I.). Pentagon correspondent Helene Cooper provides an in-depth analysis of the events leading to Brown's termination, exploring the intricate interplay between military integrity, political loyalty, and racial dynamics.

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General Charles Q. Brown Jr.: A Storied Career [04:05 – 07:53]

Helene Cooper traces General Brown’s illustrious career, highlighting his rise through the ranks of the U.S. Air Force. Originally aspiring to be an architect, Brown's path shifted to military service under his father's influence. His exemplary service as a fighter pilot, accumulation of 130 combat flying hours, and leadership roles at CENTCOM and Pacific Command established him as a respected and steady leader within the military hierarchy.

Notable Quote:

Donald Trump [06:55]: "I'm proud to have you in the Oval Office. This is an incredible occasion."

Trump publicly lauded Brown's appointment as the first African American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, emphasizing his patriotism and groundbreaking role.

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The Friday Night Massacre: Brown’s Firing [01:30 – 03:14, 22:34 – 23:46]

On a pivotal Friday night, President Trump dismissed three senior Pentagon officials, including General Brown. This unprecedented move, dubbed the "Friday Night Massacre," shook the military establishment, which prides itself on being apolitical. Cooper explains that this action signaled a direct assault on the traditionally neutral stance of the U.S. military.

Notable Quote:

Helene Cooper [01:57]: "The American military is supposed to be apolitical like the FBI."

The firing was officially unexplained, fueling speculation that Brown's open discussions on race and support for D.E.I. initiatives were factors in his removal.

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Brown’s Stance on Race and DEI [09:36 – 12:23]

In the wake of George Floyd's death, General Brown released a poignant video addressing racial issues and his personal experiences as an African American in the military. This video resonated deeply within the Pentagon and the broader military community, highlighting the challenges faced by black service members.

Notable Quote:

CQ Brown [10:14]: "Think about how full I am with emotion, not just for George Floyd, but the many African Americans that have suffered the same fate."

Brown's heartfelt message underscored his commitment to fostering an inclusive military environment, aligning with DEI principles.

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Political Backlash and the War on DEI [18:01 – 20:36]

The episode details the fierce opposition from right-leaning factions, exemplified by figures like Fox anchor Pete Hegseth, who criticized DEI initiatives as divisive. Hegseth and others accused the Pentagon of being "too woke," arguing that efforts to promote diversity distracted from mission readiness.

Notable Quote:

Pete Hegseth [18:21]: "From the White House down to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs to Secretary of Defense, they're peddling gender nonsense, race nonsense that divides troops against each other."

This ideological clash set the stage for the administration's targeted purge of officials supporting DEI.

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Replacement by General Dan Kaine: Loyalty Over Merit [23:46 – 26:31]

President Trump appointed retired Lieutenant General Dan Kaine as Brown's successor. Despite Kaine holding a lower rank and having fewer traditional military accolades, his unwavering loyalty to Trump was evident. Trump's personal anecdote about meeting Kaine at a Conservative Political Action Conference, albeit disputed by Kaine, illustrated the administration's preference for allegiance over established military merit.

Notable Quote:

Donald Trump [24:26]: "If I were casting a movie on the military, I would pick these guys."

This appointment raised concerns about the prioritization of political loyalty over professional competency within the highest military echelons.

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Implications for the Military’s Apolitical Tradition [27:16 – 29:45]

Helene Cooper discusses the broader implications of Brown's firing and Kaine's appointment on the military's apolitical stance. The shift towards politicization threatens the foundational principle that the military serves the nation, not any particular administration or political ideology.

Notable Quote:

Helene Cooper [27:16]: "It says a lot about Donald Trump and how Donald Trump considers the military... as an extension of his own administration, which is not supposed to be."

This politicization undermines the military's neutrality, potentially eroding trust and efficacy.

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The Future of Black Leadership in the Military Under Trump [28:03 – 29:24]

The episode concludes by interrogating the precarious position of black leaders within Trump's administration. General Brown's experience suggests a restrictive environment where discussing racial issues and advocating for DEI can jeopardize career advancement and personal safety.

Notable Quote:

Helene Cooper [28:34]: "The message received by black men in the military is that you cannot succeed unless you're willing to never mention any of the trials and challenges that you may have faced as a black man."

This chilling effect poses significant challenges for fostering diverse and inclusive leadership within the military.

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Conclusion

The firing of General Charles Q. Brown Jr. marks a significant moment in U.S. military and political history, highlighting the tension between maintaining an apolitical military and the rising politicization fueled by ideological battles over D.E.I. Initiatives. As The Daily elucidates, this event not only disrupts longstanding military traditions but also raises profound questions about leadership, loyalty, and the future trajectory of America's armed forces.

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Produced by: Shannon Lynn and Stella Tan
Edited by: Liz O'Ballin, with assistance from Paige Cowett
Original Music by: Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong
Engineered by: Chris Wood
Theme Music by: Jim Runberg and Ben Landsberg

Transcript

[Helene Cooper]

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[Michael Barbaro]

We've all been there. Your flight was canceled and everyone is trying to rebook at the same time. Please hold.

[Helene Cooper]

Estimated wait time is 25 minutes.

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From the New York Times. I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the Daily during his decades long path to becoming America's highest ranking military officer, General Charles Q. Brown won the crucial support of President Trump. Until that was Brown publicly talked about the one subject that is now taboo in Trump's government. Today, Pentagon correspondent Helene Cooper on what got Brown fired and why it has so thoroughly rocked the military. It's Thursday, February 27th.

[Helene Cooper]

Well, Helene, thank you for coming into the studio and thank you for making time for us.

Nice to be here, Michael.

Helene, can you tell us about what is being described as the Friday Night Massacre inside the Pentagon that unfolded a few days ago and why even in the context of President Trump firing so many people across so many federal agencies, this felt different and important and worth singling out, which is, of course, what we're doing here in our conversation with you today.

Well, on Friday night, President Trump fired three very senior Pentagon officials. One of those people is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Charles Q. Brown, known everywhere as CQ Brown, who is the highest ranking military official in the country. This was known as the Friday Night Massacre at the Pentagon because it was so stunning for the simple reason that the American military is supposed to be apolitical like the FBI. The military is supposed to stay in place regardless of who the president is. Some of the greatest generals in history made a point of the fact that they didn't vote like George Marshall, even at one point, Ulysses S. Grant, back when he was a general fighting the Civil War and didn't vote in 1864 for the president. This is a big deal in the military and that's because you want a military that is not going to be the arm of a political party. So that's why what happened was so surprising.

So what explained that, as you have just described it, highly unusual decision to fire Brown?

Well, the story of how CQ Brown came to be fired by President Trump is really a story of perceived disloyalty. It's a story of a president who does not understand that the military is not supposed to be a political extension of himself. And it's a story of only the second black man to become chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the military's highest ranking officer. And his efforts to lead, live, and exist in his own skin. An effort that I think just ran afoul of Trump's own notions of loyalty and disloyalty.

Hmm. So in some sense, this is a story you're saying about loyalty and race.

Yeah.

Well, tell us that story of who CQ Brown is in the kind of span of his career and how he, in Trump's mind, mishandles the question of race in a way that feels, to Trump, somehow disloyal.

Well, CQ Brown, as a kid, he was called Chuck, Chuck Brown. He's named after his father and grandfather. And he grew up in San Antonio, Texas, wanting to be an architect. His father, on the other hand, had been in the army and really liked the idea of military service for his son, encouraged him to join the rotc. When he got to college, Brown joined the rotc. But he wasn't very into it at first. He once told me, until he went up in his first airplane. It was a T37 twin engine, noisy airplane that pilots affectionately called Tweety Bird. And he was hooked. From that moment on, he wanted to be a pilot.

Wow. Not everyone's normal path detective fighter pilot.

So he went on to join the Air Force and he became a fighter pilot. He flew F16s throughout his career. He led a squadron first and then continues to be promoted. He ends up at CENTCOM Central Command, where he's like the number two at the Air Force there during the Iraq and Syria fights, where he gets a reputation of being very calm in the storm. One of his commanders at the time who said that, you know, whenever he walked out the door, there would be some crisis or another and he'd say, who's in charge? And if somebody said cq, he would calm down because he knew just how steady In a storm CQ Brown was. So he's built this reputation. He accumulates 130 combat flying hours. He's all over the world for the Air Force. And he eventually lands in Korea at Pacific Command, where he becomes the head of the United States Air Force in the Pacific. And he is now at this point, a three star Lieutenant General, which is, you know, one below as high as you can get. And he is recommended to President Trump to be the next Air Force Chief of Staff by Mark Esper, who is the Defense Secretary at the time.

And just explain what that means and why it's a promotion.

It's a huge promotion because that means that he would be not only a four star, but he would be commanding the United States Air Force, something no black man or woman or anyone other than a white man had ever done.

[Donald Trump]

So thank you very much, everybody. This is very special, Charles. Q. I like that. Q. Brown, Jr.

[Helene Cooper]

So in announcing the appointment, Trump is enthusiastic. He notes that he's a patriot. He notes that he's going to be the first African American appointed to this post.

[Donald Trump]

And I'm proud to have you in the Oval Office. This was going to be in a different location and there's only one Oval Office. I said this is the big league. So we have to have you and your family over to celebrate. This is an incredible occasion.

[Helene Cooper]

In fact, his swearing in ceremony takes place inside the White House and is administered by Trump.

Wow.

[Donald Trump]

But you have had an incredible career and this is a capper. And I just want to congratulate you and it's an honor to have you in this very fabled office and to have you in the White House. And thank you very much for being here and congratulations to you and your family on a job well done.

[CQ Brown]

Thank you, Mr. President.

[Donald Trump]

Fantastic job.

[Helene Cooper]

So Trump very much facilitates CQ Brown's rise to pretty much the heights of the US military.

Donald Trump is the man who set CQ Brown up to eventually become the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The way the military works is that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can only be appointed from a specific pool of military officials. You have to be either the Army Chief of Staff, the Navy Chief of Naval Operations, the Air Force Chief of Staff, the Marine Commandant, or you have to be one of the four star Combatant Command. You've got to be one of those people. So it's a very limited pool from which the president chooses the next senior military official, the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and is Donald Trump, who elevates CQ Brown to the position from which his successor, Joe Biden, can pick him as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Got it.

But right in the middle of this, Michael comes George Floyd. So Trump has nominated CQ Brown, the Pacific Air Force commander, to be the next Air Force chief. And then George Floyd is killed on memorial day in 2020. And that killing ignites this huge movement for social justice that takes over the country.

I remember it well.

Yeah. And CQ Brown's son, who's college age at the time, comes up to him and says, dad, what is Pacific Command going to do about this, huh?

And what does he mean? What does he mean by that?

Brown said to me he knew that was code for, what are you going to say about this?

What is my dad? What is this prominent black military leader gonna do and say?

Yeah. And so CQ Brown made a video.

[CQ Brown]

As the commander of Pacific Air Forces, a senior leader in our Air Force, and an African American. Many of you may be wondering what I'm thinking about the current events surrounding the tragic death of George Floyd.

[Helene Cooper]

It's a 4 minute and 49 second video. He's sitting in his fatigues against the black backdrop and it's extremely stark.

[CQ Brown]

Think about how full I am with emotion, not just for George Floyd, but the many African Americans that have suffered the same fate as George Floyd.

[Helene Cooper]

There's a tremor in his voice.

[CQ Brown]

I'm thinking about my sister and I being the only African Americans in our entire elementary school and trying to fit in.

[Helene Cooper]

And he just talks about being a black man. He talks about living in the skin that God gave him.

[CQ Brown]

I'm thinking about then going to a high school where roughly half the students were African American and trying to fit in.

[Helene Cooper]

It's a complicated message that he actually manages to convey. He talks about the pride he felt in joining the Air Force. He says, my country tis of thee.

[CQ Brown]

Sweet land of liberty, the equality expressed in our Declaration of Independence in the Constitution that I've sworn my adult life to support and defend.

[Helene Cooper]

But it's said a little bit ironically because he's also talking about what so many black men before him had gone.

[CQ Brown]

Through and thinking about a history of racial issues and my own experiences that didn't always sing of liberty and equality.

[Helene Cooper]

He talks about being in the Air Force and being the only black man in his squadron.

[CQ Brown]

I'm thinking about wearing the same flight suit with the same wings on my chest as my peers and they've been questioned by another military member. Are you a pilot? I'm thinking about the pressure I felt to perform error free, especially for supervisors I perceived had expected less from me as an African American.

[Helene Cooper]

He talks about being shunned in some ways by some of his black friends who don't understand why he's hanging out with his white fighter squadron at the same time.

[CQ Brown]

That's what I'm thinking about. I want to know what you're thinking about. I want to hear what you're thinking about and how together we can make a difference.

[Helene Cooper]

And I was really surprised at the fact that he managed to get all this stuff across while at the same time keeping it completely focused on his own life. He's not speaking for anybody else. He's speaking for himself and he talks about being very aware of the weight of what he is going to have to carry.

And what is the reaction to this video within the military?

It electrifies the Pentagon. My phone started ringing off the hook. Everybody was talking about it. Did you see the CQ Brown video? Did you see the CQ Brown video? Everybody was passing it around at the Pentagon and there was a little bit of concern, sort of like trepidation about, wow, how is Trump going to react?

Well, what's the answer? I mean, how does then President Trump react to this?

He doesn't have a public reaction in the moment. There's a lot going on at the time.

Right. It's the pandemic.

There are protests all over, Black Lives Matter protests going on. And he's already fighting with his military because at the time, Trump wants to deploy active duty American troops onto the streets against the protesters. And even ask the defense secretary, Mark Esper, who says no. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time, argued ferociously against deploying active duty American troops in the streets. And Trump is very angry at them. Meanwhile, CQ Brown has now, by releasing that video, allied himself with Millie and Esper, who Trump now hates. And Trump will not forget it.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[A.O. Scott]

This is A.O. scott. I'm a critic at the New York Times. These days, there are so many movies and books and television shows and songs that it's hard to make sense of it all. At the New York Times, what the critics do is sort through as much of that as we can to come up with advice, with recommendations, recommendations to guide you toward the stuff that's worth your time and attention. But we don't only offer guidance. Critics are here to help you make sense of things, to get you thinking about the way a movie connects with history or politics, the way a song opens up emotion, how a piece of art illuminates the world in the magical way that only art can do. Really, what I do and what the other critics here do is part of the same project that all of the journalists at the New York Times work on every day to give you clarity and perspective and above all, a deeper understanding of the world. When you subscribe to the New York Times, it's not just here are the headlines, but here's the way everything fits together. If you'd like to subscribe, Please go to nytimes.com subscribe.

[Helene Cooper]

Helene, just before the break, you suggested that CQ Brown, whether he intended to or not ends up seeming an alliance with Trump's enemies within the military. But of course, at this moment in our chronology, Trump is on his way to an electoral loss to Joe Biden, and so he's gonna leave the picture for several years. So pick the story up here for CQ Brown. What happens when Joe Biden becomes president?

So Joe Biden becomes president, and CQ Brown is the Air Force Chief of Staff. Everything begins really well. CQ Brown, as the Air Force Chief of Staff, is very focused on modernization. He's focused on great power conflict with China and Russia. He's focused on Air Force readiness. That's the military speak for being ready to fight tonight, which is like, literally.

Ready to fight a war this evening.

Yes. And CQ Brown focuses on that while he is in the Air Force. And he also makes another video.

[CQ Brown]

When I'm flying, I put my helmet on, my visor down, my mask up.

[Helene Cooper]

CQ Brown is narrating it, and it's this video that shows all these fighter pilots taking off in fighter jets.

[CQ Brown]

You don't know who I am, whether I'm African American, Asian American, Hispanic, white, male or female.

[Helene Cooper]

He says, if you're the enemy, you can't tell if I'm black or woman or white or Asian American.

[CQ Brown]

You just know I'm an American airman kicking your butt.

[Helene Cooper]

All you know is I'm an American airman about to kick your butt.

[CQ Brown]

I'm General C.Q. brown, Jr. Come join us.

[Helene Cooper]

It looks straight out of Top Gun. They play that video at the NBA All Star Game, and it boosts recruitment.

That's fascinating, and it seems worth noting. And I don't know whether this has to do with the fact that Joe Biden is now the president, that CQ Brown is finding a way to talk pretty openly, and it sounds like creatively about diversity and about ensuring that it is celebrated within the military.

Yes. So not long after, in 2023, it's time for a new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Joe Biden decides that he wants CQ Brown for job. At the same time, Lloyd Austin, who is also African American, is the Secretary of Defense. For the first time in its history, the American military and Pentagon are being run by two black men.

Right.

And there's instantly a fear inside the Pentagon among people of color that this is going to inflame the MAGA world.

Just explain that. Because Trump, of course, has promoted CQ Brown himself.

Yeah, but that was then.

[Pete Hegseth]

No more of we need X number of this racial background as fighter pilots like that's CQ Brown's a great example. He's the new chairman of the Joint Chiefs and he was obsessed with the color and background of Air Force pilots.

[Helene Cooper]

Pete Hegseth, who at the time is a Fox weekend anchor, he writes in his book the War on Warriors that CQ Brown was promoted because he's African American. He says, I think that may be unfair to him, but since he's made made race his biggest calling card, he'll have to live with it or words to that effect. There's also, there's a larger critique that Hecseth and Trump and a lot of the right leaning Republicans in Congress are lobbying against the military at this time and that's that the Pentagon is too woke.

[Pete Hegseth]

From the White House down to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs to Secretary of Defense, they're peddling gender nonsense, race nonsense that divides troops against each other. Environmental stuff, electric tanks.

[Helene Cooper]

You're hearing that all the time.

[Michael Barbaro]

The primary focus of our military should be mission readiness and lethality. Unfortunately, many of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle have continued to push for diversity, equity and inclusion to the deficit of our servicemen and women.

He, him, they, them, she, her is.

[Helene Cooper]

Not going to make us a stronger military.

[Donald Trump]

Our military has been abused for radical social experiments. On day one, I will get critical race theory and transgender insanity the hell out of our U.S. armed forces. We're taking it out.

[Helene Cooper]

They're angry because military schools have included books that mention critical race theory. They're very angry that transgender troops are being allowed to have medical care in the military. They're angry that Lloyd Austin, for instance, has in their mind circumvented the Supreme Court ruling against Roe v. Wade by agreeing that the military will pay the medical travel fees for service members who need to get abortions. All of this stuff is wrapped up in these culture wars that the right wing of the Republican Party is lobbying against the Pentagon. And right in the middle of that is the whole diversity thing.

Right. And so in their mind, what could better encapsulate the military going woke than having the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff after George Floyd's death having recorded a video talking about race.

Yes.

[Pete Hegseth]

The next commander in chief, if it's Donald Trump, and I pray it is, needs to clean house, I mean, clean house of these woke generals.

[Helene Cooper]

So, Helene, once Donald Trump wins the presidency back and once Pete Hegseth, his nominee for Secretary of Defense, is confirmed, is the thinking, given everything you have just laid out here, that CQ Brown now has a target on his back Absolutely.

Even before Trump won, there was a lot of questioning at the Pentagon about whether if he won, CQ Brown would be able to stick around. And the question was formed again and again, would he resign? And CQ Brown told his troops, he told workers and joint staff, he told everybody under him, he told reporters that he would never resign. He had already gotten to a higher position in the military than he ever thought he could, that he has taken an oath to the Constitution and that he would not walk away from it without serving his full term. And he kind of felt that he might be able to write it out. After Trump was elected, Trump and CQ Brown met at the Army Navy football game in December. And CQ Brown went up to Trump's box. They talked for about 15 minutes. And I think some of his staffers thought afterwards that it had gone well. I heard from a couple of joint staffers that Trump had said, I think you're doing a good job. But that's hearing it, you know, second or third hand. We hear from Trump people that by that point, Trump may have already decided that he was getting rid of CQ Brown.

So I think that brings us up pretty much to the present and to this Friday Night Massacre that ends with CQ Brown being terminated as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I'm curious what the official explanation becomes for why the President is getting rid of him in this role.

Michael, There is no official explanation. Hegseth calls him up and tells him, I'm sorry, you're being fired. President Trump posts that on Truth Social. Neither man says why in their public explanation why they are firing CQ Brown. They thank him for his service and move on to announcing his replacement. But I talked to a number of people, both in the Trump administration and close to Trump, outside of the administration, and what they tell me that Trump and Hegseth arrived at was this belief that. But in that video, CQ Brown picked a side. And the side he picked was a side that embraced diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that in the minds of Trump and Hegseth, today in 2025, is the wrong side.

Hmm. I'm curious who President Trump puts forward to replace Brown and how in the president's mind and in the mind of the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, that person's on the right side of all of this. If it turns out CQ Brown is on the wrong side.

So Trump chooses a retired Lieutenant General, Dan Kaine, who goes by the call sign of Raisin Cain, which Trump loves, to replace CQ Brown. Both men are Fighter pilots. But Dan Cain has three stars and retired CQ Brown had four stars. Trump fell in love with Dan Cain in Trump's own telling in 2018, when he made a spur of the moment December trip to Iraq. And one of the many places that Trump told a version of this story was at the Conservative Political action conference in 2024.

[Donald Trump]

I'm walking down and I'm looking down and I see these central casting people.

[Helene Cooper]

According to Trump, Dan Cain looked straight out of central casting.

[Donald Trump]

If I were casting a movie on the military, I would pick these guys. There's nobody you could hire in Hollywood that looks like this. So I walked down, and this is where I met General Raisin Cain.

[Helene Cooper]

And Trump says, and, you know, I keep saying, Trump says, and attributing this to Trump, because Trump has told this story many times, and the story changes each time.

[Donald Trump]

General, what's your name? And he gave me his name. What's your name? Sergeant. Yes, sir. And I love you, sir. I think you're great, sir. I'll kill for you, sir.

[Helene Cooper]

According to Trump, Dan Cain said, I love you. I'll kill for you, sir.

Wow.

[Donald Trump]

Then he puts on a Make America Great again. You're not allowed to do that. But they did it. I remember I went into the.

[Helene Cooper]

Trump claims that Dan Cain put on a MAGA hat, which would be against military law, to be that partisan. And that pretty much cemented it for Donald Trump by all accounts. It should be noted that General Kaine has told his aides that he has never put on a MAGA hat.

Got it. So he basically denies that this happened.

Yes.

So this thing's important. After firing CQ Brown for being somebody who, to the President, we understand represents a woke figure, and it seems, in Hegseth's telling, maybe someone who was elevated more for his race than merit. There's no evidence of that, but that appears to be the perception from Hegseth. Trump and Hegseth have replaced him with somebody who has a lower rank and less achievement within the military, but whose chief virtue seems to be, in Trump's telling, unquestioning, explicit loyalty and fondness for Trump.

That would be correct.

And that, of course, raises a lot of questions. I mean, the first is whether loyalty is now being prized over merit. And to the degree that that's the case, we now have two of the most powerful people in the military chain of command, Hegseth, who has no traditional credentials to run the Defense Department, but Trump has asked him to do so. Now we have Kaine, who has many of the credentials, but not the credentials of the last person to be chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. What they have in common is a very strong, in Trump's mind, loyalty to the president. What does that start to tell us about the state of our armed forces and their relationship to the president?

It's such a good question, Michael. It says a lot about Donald Trump and how Donald Trump considers the military, again, as an extension of his own administration, which is not supposed to be. We could have a whole session, the two of us, on just the dangers of a politicized military. And that could take up hours and hours of talking. But that is what Donald Trump threatened many times in his actions during his first term. And he was walked back by the generals he had in the military who fought this. And now he is beginning his second term in the exact same place, except he seems to be pushing it even harder.

And, of course, the other very pointed, I think, but essential question that this whole episode raises is what kind of a black leader is allowed in the senior levels of Trump's government? I mean, what can be your relationship to race, to George Floyd, to questions of diversity if you want to be somebody who succeeds in Trump's administration?

I don't know the answer to that, Michael.

I mean, what have we learned from the experience of CQ Brown?

Well, I can't speak to Donald Trump's worldview, but based on the conversations that I've had, the message received by black men in the military is that you cannot succeed unless you're willing to Never mention any of the trials and challenges that you may have faced as a black man. And don't talk about anything that the United States government may have done or not done to contribute to that.

Well, Helene, thank you very much.

[Michael Barbaro]

We appreciate it.

[Helene Cooper]

Thanks, Michael.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Helene Cooper]

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The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

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I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

[A.O. Scott]

Play portal or connection, and then swipe.

[Helene Cooper]

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[A.O. Scott]

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[Michael Barbaro]

Here'S what else you need to know today. During a confirmation hearing on Wednesday, three of President Trump's choices to help run the Justice Department clashed with Democratic senators about whether the White House can simply ignore some court orders, a possibility that many legal scholars see as the start of a constitutional crisis. Under questioning, the lawyers, including Aaron Reiter, Trump's choice to run the Justice Department's Office of Legal Policy, suggested that Trump could in fact ignore the court's ruling.

[Helene Cooper]

There is no hard and fast rule about whether in every instance a public official is bound by a court decision. There are some instances in which he or she may lawfully be bound.

[Michael Barbaro]

The issue has taken on growing urgency as Trump attempts to expand his power and federal courts repeatedly rule that his actions are illegal. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lynn and Stella Tan. It was edited by Liz O'Ballin with help from Paige Cowett, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Pat McCusker and Diane Wong and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Runberg and Ben Landsberg of W. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balbaro. See you tomorrow.

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