Hegseth in the Hot Seat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily — "Hegseth in the Hot Seat"

Date: May 1, 2026
Host: Michael Barbaro
Guest/Expert: Eric Schmitt (NYT National Security Correspondent)
Main Theme: The first congressional testimony in a year by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, focusing on the ongoing war in Iran, questions of public accountability, and his controversial management of the Pentagon.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the high-stakes congressional hearing in which Pete Hegseth, the U.S. Secretary of Defense, faces sharp scrutiny for his handling of the war in Iran and his approach to leadership at the Pentagon. Host Michael Barbaro and NYT correspondent Eric Schmitt break down the intense partisan dynamics of the hearing, the legal and ethical controversies swirling around Hegseth, and what his testimony reveals about the current administration’s stance on transparency and dissent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The High Stakes of Hegseth’s Testimony

• [01:22-03:48]
  • The annual defense budget hearing ($1.5 trillion request—the largest ever) is a perfunctory event, but this year it doubles as a rare moment of public accountability for Hegseth, whose decisions and communication style have generated controversy.
  • Schmitt contextualizes:

    “There’s been so many things that have happened in that year…he’s fired dozens of generals and admirals…kicked out reporters…very little public accountability for a wide range of controversial operational and budget issues.” —[02:15]

• The war in Iran looms especially large, with the U.S. two months in and with little public explanation for strategy, objectives, or progress.

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2. Congressional Republicans Rally Behind Hegseth

• [06:01-07:35]
  • Instead of tough questioning typical for Trump-era hearings, GOP senators offer unwavering support, lauding his management and the conduct of the Iran war.
  • Quote (Unnamed Republican Senator):

    “This $1.5 trillion request is chock full of important programs…absolutely necessary.” —[06:10]

  • Barbaro observes:

    “On arguably the most urgent topic of the second term, the war, its fallout, they really fall in line.” —[06:47]

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3. Democrats’ Relentless Critique

• [07:42-13:07]
  • Senate Democrats attack Hegseth for a war “stuck” in stalemate, high economic costs at home, lack of public support, and unmet U.S. objectives (e.g., Iran’s regime remains, Strait of Hormuz is closed).
  • Notable Exchanges:
    • Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand:

      “I don’t know if you fully appreciate how much the American people do not support this war…They are exhausted. They are truly exhausted.” —[08:28, 08:39]

    • Sen. Elizabeth Warren:

      “This illegal war is driving up costs, undermining readiness, and alienating our allies.” —[08:16]

    • Hegseth responds:

      “There’s no price you can put on the security that president Trump’s campaign against Iran is going to provide.” —[09:30]

    • Gillibrand presses:

      “Why do you continue to prosecute a war that the American people aren’t behind?” —[09:14]

    • Hegseth:

      “What is the cost of a nuclear-armed Iran?” —[09:39]

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4. The 60-Day War Powers Deadline

• [10:40-13:07]
  • Democrats, notably Sen. Tim Kaine, press Hegseth on whether the administration will seek congressional authorization as the 60-day war powers limit is reached.
  • Kaine’s challenge:

    “Is the President intending to seek congressional authorization for the war in Iran or send us the legally required certification that he needs an additional 30 days to remove US forces from the war?” —[11:12]

  • Hegseth’s reply:

    “I would defer to the White House…we are in a ceasefire right now, which our understanding means the 60-day clock pauses.” —[11:30]

  • Schmitt notes:

    “Legal scholars say, no, that’s not correct…but that seems to be the legal basis they’re now resting on.” —[12:20]

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5. Ethics, Profiteering, and Insider Trading

• [15:33-18:54]
  • Sen. Elizabeth Warren interrogates Hegseth on reports of Pentagon insiders profiting from war information, referencing a soldier arrested for making predictions-market bets on special operations.
  • She challenges Hegseth about his own financial dealings, citing a Financial Times report about prewar investments.
  • Warren:

    “The Financial Times reported that your broker tried to buy hundreds of shares in a BlackRock fund invested in defense companies just before the war began.” —[17:44]

  • Hegseth’s retort:

    “That entire story is false, has been from the beginning, and was made up out of whole cloth.” —[18:07]
    “Bigger, fatter, negative.” [when asked about personal investment authorization] —[18:27]

  • Schmitt clarifies:

    “No, there’s no evidence at all that we’ve seen or heard of.” —[19:04]

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6. Civil-Military Relations: Election Interference Concerns

• [19:14-21:37]
  • Sen. Alyssa Slotkin (D-MI) probes Hegseth on whether he would obey or resist any illegal order from the President to deploy the military in this year’s elections (“to seize ballots or voting machines”).
  • Slotkin:

    “If the President…asks you to seize ballots or voting machines in states during the 2026 election, will you stand up for the Constitution and say no, or will you salute and do his bidding?” —[20:25]

  • Hegseth’s response:
    • Initially calls it a “gotcha hypothetical.”
    • Only after prompting:

      “I’ve never been ordered to do anything illegal, and I won’t. That goes without saying.” —[21:29]

  • Hegseth notably never outright says he would refuse an illegal election order.

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7. Dissent, Accountability, and Media Relations

• [21:49-24:53]
  • The hearing spotlights Hegseth’s disdain for dissent—referring to critics as “reckless naysayers,” “defeatists,” and “Pharisees.”
  • Sen. Jackie Rosen (D-NV):

    “You compare journalists, you compare us…to Pharisees… a problematic and historically weaponized term that casts Jewish communities as hypocritical.” —[22:41-22:54]

  • Hegseth stands by his language:

    “I feel like it’s a pretty accurate term for folks who don’t see the plank in their own eye and always want to see what’s wrong…So I stand by it.” —[23:15]

  • Rosen rebukes:

    “You stand by calling people Pharisees? Sir, I cannot stand for that…not be an anti-Semite.” —[23:27]

  • Schmitt reflects:

    “There seems to be no room for an intellectual argument…If you’re coming down on the wrong side…you’re now on his enemies list, it seems.” —[24:25]

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8. The Irony of Hegseth’s Tenure

• [25:27-27:29]
  • Barbaro notes:

    “Now he has that job…he is not willing to endure the kind of criticism that he so forcefully delivered…may be responsible for why he now has the job.” —[26:24]

  • Schmitt concludes:

    “At least in the secretary’s telling, he can never be wrong, he can never be challenged the way he challenged civilian and uniformed leaders in years past. And anyone who challenges that needs to be taken down.” —[27:29]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Hegseth on Critics:

  "The biggest adversary we face at this point are the reckless naysayers and defeatist words of Congressional Democrats and some Republicans." —[05:00]

• Gillibrand on War Weariness:

  "They're exhausted. They are truly exhausted." —[08:39]

• Hegseth on the War's Justification:

  "What is the cost of a nuclear-armed Iran?" —[09:39]

• Warren on Insider Profiteering:

  "It looks like insiders have been making out like bandits using secret information about the war." —[16:18]

• Slotkin on Military & Elections:

  "Will you stand up for the Constitution and say no, or will you salute and do his bidding?" —[20:25]

• Hegseth on Respecting Lawful Orders:

  "I’ve never been ordered to do anything illegal, and I won’t. That goes without saying." —[21:29]

• Rosen on Anti-Semitic Rhetoric:

  "You compare us...to Pharisees...I cannot stand for that. That is wrong. It is not respectful to people." —[23:27]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:22] – Framing of the hearing’s significance
• [05:00] – Hegseth labeling critics “defeatists” and “adversaries”
• [07:42] – Democrats confront Hegseth on Iran war stalemate
• [11:12] – War Powers Act and 60-day authorization debate
• [15:34-18:54] – Ethics/insider trading grilling by Warren
• [19:14-21:37] – Election interference scenario, Slotkin’s questioning
• [22:26-23:51] – Dissent, Pharisees comments, and Rosen’s rebuttal
• [25:27–27:29] – Reflecting on Hegseth’s unwillingness to be criticized

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Conclusion

The episode frames Pete Hegseth’s testimony as a defining moment that exposes deep partisan divides over the administration’s war in Iran and highlights unprecedented issues of transparency, legality, and leadership style. Hegseth’s confrontational manner, particularly toward dissent, lack of substantive Republican oversight, and deflection of ethical questions, signal a new era for Pentagon leadership—one with clear implications for civil-military norms and public accountability.

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For listeners and readers:
This summary captures the substance and tone of this high-stakes congressional hearing as recounted on The Daily. The episode is a revealing look at the current administration’s approach to war, oversight, and internal dissent at the highest levels of American defense.

Transcript

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[Michael Barbaro]

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Babaro. This is the daily. In back to back hearings that ended on Thursday, Pete Hegseth went before Congress for the first time in a year to answer for a war in Iran that's reached a stalemate and a management style that has caused controversy after controversy at the Pentagon today. My colleague Eric Schmidt takes us inside his testimony. It's Friday, may 1st.

Eric, always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us.

[Eric Schmidt]

Thank you.

[Michael Barbaro]

Michael, let me start by asking as a reporter who covers the military and the Pentagon and the war in Iran, how were you thinking about this hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee as it was about to begin on Thursday morning? What in your mind were the stakes of Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, giving this testimony at this particular moment?

[Eric Schmidt]

So the stakes really couldn't have been larger, Michael. Once a year, the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff come up to Congress and testify. Basically, they're asking for money. They want to get their budget approved. And this year's budget is a biggie. It's almost $1.5 trillion, the largest budget request ever, some $500 million more than this year's budget. And this is to do everything from replenish munitions stockpiles to rebuild the Navy to const a new anti missile system called Golden Dome. So this is all kind of part and parcel of this budget request. But remember, it's been a year since he's had to testify before Congress and there's been so many things that have happened in that year. The military has seized the leader of Venezuela and brought him to the United States. He's fired dozens of generals and admirals, many of them women and minorities, that he didn't think cut muster in his Pentagon. And it's also landing it's a very important time because obviously we're two months into the Iran war. Of course, he's also kicked reporters out of the Pentagon. So he doesn't really have real news conferences anymore. So there has been very little public accountability for a wide range of kind of operational and programmatic and budget issues that he has done. They've been very controversial and he just hasn't really had to answer this. And this would be the first time where he's going to have to face pointed questions from congressional Democrats and some Republicans who've questioned what he's doing. Right.

[Michael Barbaro]

So on its face, this is a perfunctory budget hearing. And the budget request is huge, but, you know, it's annual. But you're saying what this is really about is that for the first time, the Secretary of Defense, arguably the most controversial Secretary of defense in our lifetime, is going to be challenged and held accountable under oath for all the things that he has done since pretty much he was confirmed to the job.

[Eric Schmidt]

That's right.

[Michael Barbaro]

Okay, well, with that in mind, take us into this hearing room on Thursday morning and set that scene.

[Eric Schmidt]

We are meeting today to review the Pentagon's FY27 budget request. So Hegseth is seated, facing this array of senators.

[Pete Hegseth]

Well, Mr. Chairman, ranking member Reid, Senators, thank you for the opportunity to testify in support of President Trump's historic, as you said, Mr. Chairman, $1.5 trillion fiscal year 2027 budget for the Department of War.

[Eric Schmidt]

And he starts by making his case for why they should be giving him and the Department of Defense such a large budget.

[Pete Hegseth]

The President's budget request reflects the urgency of the moment, addressing both the deferment of long standing problems as well as positioning our forces for the current and future fights.

[Eric Schmidt]

But then he turns and he starts to address the big issue in the room, of course, which is the Iran war.

[Pete Hegseth]

President Trump has the courage has had, unlike other presidents, to ensure that Iran never gets a nuclear weapon and that their nuclear blackmail never succeeds.

[Eric Schmidt]

And he also talks about what is really the adversary here.

[Pete Hegseth]

The biggest adversary we face at this point are the reckless naysayers and defeatist words of Congressional Democrats and some Republicans

[Eric Schmidt]

basically calling Congressional Democrats and some Republicans defeatist for criticizing the military's campaign and President Trump's overall effort in Iran after just two short months.

[Pete Hegseth]

Defeatists from the cheap seats who, two months in, seek to undermine the incredible efforts that have been undertaken and the historic nature of taking on a 47 year threat with the courage no other president has had.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And says that they are a greater enemy in this moment than Iran itself.

[Eric Schmidt]

That's right. Basically the adversary here is at home. And why can't you see Democrats and even some negative Republicans, why can't you see what a great job the military has done? And this is the only president bold enough to take on such a threat.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And this essentially serves as a prebuttal to any tough questions he's going to get about this war and this hearing.

[Eric Schmidt]

That's right. But the tough questions from Republicans never really come. Their statements are more of tremendous support for this budget that's long overdue.

[Republican Senator]

This $1.5 trillion request is chock full of important programs and initiatives that are absolutely necessary.

[Eric Schmidt]

They can't believe what a terrific Secretary Heccseth is and how great a job he's been doing over these last several months. I want to turn now to Operation Epic Fury. It's been a smashing military success. They praised his conduct in the war in Iran. They praised the operation that snatch President Maduro from Venezuela. You're the best that we've had since I've been in Washington. What you've done to restore readiness, a whole raft of things that just show they believe the Pentagon is in the best hands possible. Mr. Chairman, Secretary Hegseth, you're doing a great job.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. Their message is quite simply, you're great. The war in Iran is going pretty great. And that stands out, at least to me, because Congressional Republicans have not avoided asking the rest of Trump's Cabinet pretty tough questions in hearings. I'm thinking about the pointed inquiries directed at Christy Noem, the Homeland Security secretary, or former Attorney General Pam Bondi. In fact, those hearings led in part to their ouster by President Trump. But on arguably the most urgent topic of the second term, the war, its fallout, they really fall in line.

[Eric Schmidt]

They really do. You don't hear any criticism about the war in Iran or pretty much of anything else.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. But that was not the story of Democrats on this committee, quite obviously.

[Eric Schmidt]

No, the Democrats came loaded for bear, Mr. Secretary.

[Pete Hegseth]

This war is stuck.

[Eric Schmidt]

They come after Hegseth and just saying, look, the United States has not met its goals here.

[Republican Senator]

Iran's hardline regime remains in place.

[Eric Schmidt]

The Iranians still have highly enriched uranium. They still have thousands of missiles and drones, and most important, the Strait of Hormuz is closed. They also are controlling the Strait of Hormuz and choking off the economy for the globe.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Eric Schmidt]

This illegal war is driving up costs,

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

undermining readiness and alienating our allies.

[Eric Schmidt]

And then there are a number of other Senate Democrats, including Kirsten Gillibrand of New York, who say to Hegseth, you are so out of touch.

[Senator Kirsten Gillibrand]

I don't know if you fully appreciate how much the American people do not support this war.

[Eric Schmidt]

You have no idea how unpopular this war is with my constituents back home.

[Senator Kirsten Gillibrand]

First of all, this war is costing so much money over $25 billion, already estimates a billion dollars a day. And they're feeling it every single day at the gas pump with higher prices for both fuel for diesel, for gasoline, for their cars. They're also feeling it with higher grocery costs. And they're exhausted. They are truly exhausted.

[Eric Schmidt]

And that this is just a war with no seeming end, with no real upside to it, as far as her constituents can tell. And you don't seem to know what you're doing.

[Senator Kirsten Gillibrand]

Why do you continue to prosecute a war that the American people aren't behind?

[Eric Schmidt]

Hegset pushes back against these critics.

[Pete Hegseth]

And Senator, when I talk to Americans, and especially when I talk to the troops, they are grateful for a president who has the courage to take on this threat after 47 years of what Iran has done, basically saying that there's

[Eric Schmidt]

really no price you can put on the security that President Trump's campaign against Iran is going to provide.

[Pete Hegseth]

So the question I would ask to you and to others is what is the cost of a nuclear armed Iran? What is the cost to the American people if the world's most dangerous regime has a nuclear weapon?

[Eric Schmidt]

There's no price on that. That long term security that is eluded president after president, Republicans, Democrats, for decades is now within our grasp. That is what Hegseth is saying. And yes, there may be some short term economic costs, but the long term security that it buys is immeasurable.

[Pete Hegseth]

This is a defined mission set that we have had great success in pursuing against a determined enemy who seeks nuclear weapons. And I'm proud of the opportunity to because they believe in it as well.

[Senator Kirsten Gillibrand]

You don't care what the American people.

[Pete Hegseth]

And the American people are quite smart. They understand and see through spin. They know that a regime that says death to America, that seeks nuclear weapons and the ability to deliver.

[Michael Barbaro]

I'm curious, Eric, what else stood out to you about how these Senate Democrats talked to Hegseth about the war in Iran?

[Eric Schmidt]

Well, the big issue for Democrats and they kept asking about it, was how long will this war last and will you ever come to us here on Capitol Hill for authority? There's a big debate going on right now because as of Friday, there's a 60 day limit from the start of hostilities under which time the president either has to withdraw American forces or come to Congress and seek authorization for this war?

[Pete Hegseth]

We're right at the 60 day deadline.

[Eric Schmidt]

And Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia in particular presses this point.

[Pete Hegseth]

Is the president intending to either seek congressional authorization for the war in Iran or send us the legally required certification that he needs an additional 30 days to remove US forces from the war.

[Eric Schmidt]

And Hegseth kind of dodges the question.

[Pete Hegseth]

Ultimately, I would defer to the White House and White House counsel on that. However, we are in a ceasefire right now, which our understanding means the 60

[Eric Schmidt]

day clock pauses, but ultimately comes back with an answer. I think that stuns a lot of the lawmakers and basically says, you know what, this doesn't really apply to us and we don't need to comply with this because we're in the midst of a ceasefire. He's basically saying this 60 day clock that's in law has stopped. And so we don't really have to worry about that right now, just so you know.

[Pete Hegseth]

Okay, well, I, I do not believe the statute would support that. I think the 60 days runs maybe tomorrow.

[Eric Schmidt]

And Kaine and I think others are just amazed that somehow this novel legal interpretation has suddenly surfaced in the middle of this hearing. But that's, you know, Secretary Hagseth said it and he's sticking to it.

[Michael Barbaro]

I mean, is he right? I mean, is he right or is the skepticism for the Democrats?

[Eric Schmidt]

I think the legal scholars we talked to said, no, that's not correct. But obviously this hasn't been tested in this particular format. So Friday is the deadline. We'll see what the White House decides to do. But that seems to be the legal basis that they're now resting on, that they don't have to meet this deadline, at least not yet. And so that was another point. It just kind of shows in the Democrats view, kind of how cavalier the administration has entered into this war. They thought this was going to be over so quickly, they don't even have to worry about this 60 day limit. We're never going to approach this because the Iranian regime will fall. Everything will work out just fine. And of course, that hasn't happened. And suddenly, here's one more unintended consequence that they're having to deal with, which

[Michael Barbaro]

is that they're triggering the 60 day need for congressional war authorization.

[Eric Schmidt]

That's right. Exactly.

[Michael Barbaro]

Okay, well, those were the questions Democrats asked Hegseth about Iran. After the break. I want to talk about what happened when the Democrats on this committee confronted Hegseth about Hegseth himself.

[Eric Schmidt]

We'll be right back.

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[Senator Jackie Rosen]

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[Michael Barbaro]

Eric the Democrats on this committee also want to talk about Hegseth's overall management of the Pentagon and all the controversies that have blossomed since he took over.

[Eric Schmidt]

That's right.

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Eric Schmidt]

Elizabeth Warren, Senator from Massachusetts, brought up a broader question of whether or not Pentagon officials, military officials, are using insider information for their own personal financial gain.

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

But someone is profiting off Trump's war insiders who know what's going on and who place bets on on that inside information. On March 23, there was recently just

[Eric Schmidt]

a U.S. special Forces soldier who was arrested for using information that he gained as being a part of the operation to seize President Maduro of Venezuela to make some $400,000 in the predictions market.

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

It looks like insiders have been making out like bandits using secret information about the war.

[Eric Schmidt]

So that's kind of floating over all this. And there have been other reports of money being made by unseen people for other military operations, including the war in Iran.

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

Not a single person has been charged.

[Eric Schmidt]

And she's kind of trying to drill down with the secretary to say, is this something you know, that you're paying attention to?

[Pete Hegseth]

Senator I'm more than focused on doing my job and ensuring we execute properly, which thankfully under this and Hecseth kind

[Eric Schmidt]

of looks at her like quizzically saying this, you know, this isn't really my department.

[Pete Hegseth]

What I'm Saying is is we're focused on our mission of executing for the American people. And what happens in markets is not embedding markets is not something we're involved in.

[Eric Schmidt]

And she says, well, wait a minute. This is your Pentagon, right? Aren't you a little bit of concern that all this kind of classified operational information, they might be using it for their own personal gain?

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

Even if the information may be coming from insiders in your office, Senator, it's

[Pete Hegseth]

not something we're involved in at all. And of course, we take operational security at every level very seriously. In fact, no one's taken operational security more seriously than us, if you And

[Michael Barbaro]

I have to admit, I was a little bit confused about where she was heading here.

[Eric Schmidt]

Well, I think what she's driving at is a story in the media a couple weeks ago about Hegseth himself.

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

The Financial Times reported that your broker tried to buy hundreds of shares in a BlackRock fund invested in defense companies just before the war began.

[Eric Schmidt]

Was he basically betting on defense contractors or putting investing money, his own money into defense contractors that would obviously, you know, pay off for him.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. Was he profiting from the war?

[Eric Schmidt]

Was he profiting from the war? Exactly.

[Pete Hegseth]

That entire story is false, has been from the beginning, and was made up out of whole cloth.

[Eric Schmidt]

And he adamantly rejected this.

[Pete Hegseth]

I'll give it to you as a big fat negative.

[Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren]

Then let me ask you a second question. Is your broker getting your personal sign off on any investment in individual stocks?

[Pete Hegseth]

Bigger, fatter, negative.

[Eric Schmidt]

He just seems to be completely outraged that she would suggest this kind of thing. But this is kind of one of these new things that's floating around. And, you know, whether you're a soldier or somebody on the inside in the Pentagon, you're suddenly, you can use some of this information in a way that would actually gain you a lot of money if you're going to hide your tracks well enough. And that's what she's getting at. Are you worried about this is a potential problem.

[Michael Barbaro]

And just to clear us up, is there any evidence that we're aware of here at the Times that Hegseth did seek to profit from a war he's

overseeing as Secretary of Defense?

[Eric Schmidt]

No, there's no evidence at all that we've seen or heard of.

[Michael Barbaro]

Got it.

Important. Well, Eric, let me turn to how other Democrats questioned Hegseth's management of the Pentagon domestically.

[Republican Senator]

Senator Slotkin, I think you are next.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Thank you.

[Michael Barbaro]

One of the questions that most struck me came from Senator Alyssa Slotkin, who wanted to understand what orders Hegseth would follow when it comes to the military in elections.

[Eric Schmidt]

Right. Alyssa Slotkin, Democrat from Michigan, former Defense Department, CIA official, and she basically is asking a question that's on a lot of people's minds.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

The question I have for you, though, is future looking, and it's our 2026 elections.

[Eric Schmidt]

Given the recent deployment of US National Guard troops to places like Los Angeles and Minneapolis and all the chaos that was called there, there are a lot of people worried that Trump administration, the Pentagon, under Hegseth, would deploy troops, either National Guard or active duty troops, to polling places in the elections in November.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

And we know that in 2020, he wrote an executive order that he didn't sign that said, to the US Military, to the Secretary of Defense, you should go and seize ballots and voting machines.

[Eric Schmidt]

And Slotkin zeroes in on this because that would be illegal.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

If the President, who regrets not signing that executive order to the then sec.def in 2020, asks you to seize ballots or voting machines in states during the 2026 election, will you stand up for the Constitution and say no, or will you salute and do his bidding?

[Eric Schmidt]

And Hegseth gets this kind of smirk on his face and says, well, again,

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

that's the most important thing. It's what's happening.

[Pete Hegseth]

It's yet another gotcha hypothetical, which is your specialty.

[Eric Schmidt]

Ah, you're trying to get me into a gotcha question here. You're just playing to the cameras with that kind of thing.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Tell the American people, will you deploy the uniform military to our polls to collect voter rolls or machines?

[Pete Hegseth]

Are you accusing me of performing? Because you're performing for cable news right now.

[Republican Senator]

But, Mr. Secretary, we have.

[Pete Hegseth]

It's a hypothetical.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And in fact, only after the chairman of the committee, a Republican, encourages him, after Slotkin's time is up to actually answer the question.

[Eric Schmidt]

You're right.

[Republican Senator]

Do you have a response to that portion of the question, Mr. Secretary?

[Pete Hegseth]

I've never been ordered to do anything illegal, and I won't. That goes without saying.

[Republican Senator]

Thank you for the answer.

[Pete Hegseth]

Right.

[Michael Barbaro]

But he never ultimately says, no, I won't follow an order from the President to get involved through the military in the elections.

[Eric Schmidt]

No, he doesn't.

[Michael Barbaro]

Finally, there's a really important exchange about the very idea of dissent and the growing sense, which, Eric, you had mentioned in the beginning of our conversation, when it comes to how Hegseth has treated the media, that this Secretary of Defense is not really open to dissent, not really interested in being challenged, whether that's from the news media or even from Congress.

[Eric Schmidt]

You're right. And he is definitely in the camp of you're either with us or you're against us. There's no gray area in the middle here where it's we can agree to disagree on these kind of issues.

[Senator Jackie Rosen]

You keep doubling down on this phrase.

[Eric Schmidt]

And this comes up in an exchange with Jackie Rosen, a Democrat from Nevada who is asking Haigseth why he uses a term.

[Senator Jackie Rosen]

You compare journalists, you compare us. You compare so many to Pharisees, Pharisees

[Eric Schmidt]

in the New Testament who criticized Jesus of Nazareth for performing miracles.

[Senator Jackie Rosen]

It's a problematic and historically weaponized term that cast Jewish communities as hypocritical or morally corrupt. You doubled down again and said it.

[Eric Schmidt]

And she's just taken aback by this.

[Senator Jackie Rosen]

How do you justify using this language as Secretary of Defense? Words of matter? It's a hurtful, historically hurtful term, Senator.

[Pete Hegseth]

I feel like it's a pretty accurate term for folks who don't see the plank in their own eye and always want to see what's wrong with an operation as opposed to the historic success of preventing Iran from. From getting a nuclear weapon. So I stand by it.

[Senator Jackie Rosen]

You stand by calling people Pharisees? Sir, I cannot, I cannot stand for that. That is wrong. It is not respectful to people. And I expect anyone who is in leadership in our country to be respectful and use respectful terms and not be an anti Semite.

[Eric Schmidt]

And it kind of circles back to the comments he made at the beginning of the hearing where he talks about critics of the Iran campaign as reckless naysayers and defeatists. And again, there seems to be no room for an intellectual argument over this kind of thing.

[Republican Senator]

This concludes today's hearing. I'd like to thank our witnesses for their testimony, for the information of members. Questions for the record would be due to the committee within two business days of the conclusion of the hearing. We are adjourned.

[Eric Schmidt]

It's very striking. As somebody. I've covered defense secretaries now for 35 years, combative ones like Donald Rumsfeld, but it was never cast in a sense of the media or the Congress is an outright enemy. If you're coming down on the wrong side of this administration or this Pentagon or challenging Secretary Hegseth personally, he's not going to back down. And in fact, you're now on his enemies list, it seems right.

[Michael Barbaro]

And to even ask a certain kind of question to him is to be an enemy akin to Iran itself.

[Eric Schmidt]

That seems to be the way he sees things. And it's all done with kind of. He looks at lawmakers who ask these questions very suspiciously. Oftentimes with kind of a smile on his face, like, ah, this game that we're in here. And there's very little deference that you normally see at these kind of hearings where they kind of bite their tongue and say, yes, Senator, yes, Congressman, and move on. It's just, it's very confrontational, as we've seen with other members of the Trump cabinet.

[Michael Barbaro]

And there's a kind of irony to this, which you know very well, Eric, because we've talked to you about it. From the moment that Hexseth was nominated for this job and through his confirmation hearings, Pete Hegseth's appeal to President Trump and in theory to folks in the Pentagon when he was nominated, was his unusual willingness to criticize previous military leaders, to say that past folks who occupied the same seat he now does had blown it, that they had gotten America in bad wars forever wars, that they had ruined the culture of the military. And now he has that job. And as hearings like this demonstrate, he is not willing to endure the kind of criticism that he so forcefully delivered. And that in large part may be responsible for why he now has the job.

[Eric Schmidt]

Absolutely. In many ways, he captured President Trump's attention as a Fox News host for criticizing the very senior military leaders who we once served as an officer in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Eric Schmidt]

And basically saying, I am part of this generation of men and women who served in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I know the mistakes that were made. I live them day in, day out, and I've come back to fix them and to correct them. And with Presidents Trump imprimatur, we're well on our way of doing that. But I think what the hearings this week showed was that at least in the secretary's telling, he can never be wrong, he can never be challenged the way he challenged civilian and uniformed leaders in years past. And anyone who challenges that needs to be taken down.

[Michael Barbaro]

Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

[Eric Schmidt]

Thank you.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

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[Michael Barbaro]

here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, the House of Representatives voted to end a record 76 day shutdown of the Department of Homeland Security. After weeks of fighting over a compromise bill, House Republicans endorsed legislation that will fund all of the agency except for its immigration enforcement operation operations. Those operations will be funded through separate legislation. The shutdown began as an act of protest by Democrats over the Trump administration's crackdown on illegal immigration, which resulted in the death of two American citizens. And in a major blow to the Democratic Party leaders who backed her, Maine's Governor Janet Mills has ended her her primary campaign for US Senate, conceding that she no longer has the money or the momentum to compete against a progressive newcomer, Graham Platner. Her exit paves the way for Platner to become the Democratic nominee against Republican Susan Collins in a race that Democrats must win to regain control of the Senate in this year's midterms. Today's episode was produced by Eric Krupke, Shannon Lynn and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Chris Haxel. Contains music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood. Wood. That's it for the daily I'm michael balboro. See you on Sunday.

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