How Iranians See the War

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Daily – How Iranians See the War

Date: April 21, 2026
Host: Rachel Abrams (The New York Times)
Reported by: Claire Tennisgetter

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Episode Overview

With the US and Israel engaged in a devastating military campaign on Iran and the regime silencing the nation through near-total internet blackouts, the Western media machine has mostly missed one key voice: ordinary Iranians themselves. Reporter Claire Tennisgetter overcomes extraordinary communication hurdles to present unfiltered Iranian perspectives — both inside and outside the country — on the war, resistance, and survival. The episode centers on two in-depth personal stories, revealing diverging philosophies on protest, foreign intervention, and the nuances of hope and despair under brutal repression.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Communication Blackout and Silencing (02:05–03:28)

• Context:

  • Initial attempts to reach Iranians in Tehran — the war’s epicenter — go unanswered due to regime crackdowns and a 99% internet shutdown.
  • Only a privileged few manage sporadic access using VPNs or satellite links like Starlink.

• Memorable Moment:
  “It wasn’t that people didn’t want to talk. They couldn’t. Not only is it extremely dangerous for Iranians to speak to an American journalist, phone calls could be monitored by the regime.”
  (Claire Tennisgetter, 02:05)

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2. Initial Reactions: Fear, Shock, and Mixed Sentiments (03:28–04:49)

• Voices from Iran:

  • Soundbites from Iranians, both regime supporters and opposition, convey chaos and divided emotional responses to the bombings and the dramatic killing of Supreme Leader Khamenei.
  • “People in the streets, we were chanting slogans and making the victory signs saying, military help from Israel and United States. It's here. It finally happened. They are here.” (Farsi-speaking Iranian woman, 04:30)

• Regime loyalists grieve, rage, and vow resistance (“death to Trump” chants), while opposition voices express both celebration and profound fear.

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3. Why Don’t Iranians Rise Up? (04:49–06:25)

• Core Insight:

  • Despite Trump’s call to rebellion, most Iranians stay inside:
    • Extreme risk — shootings, civilian killings
    • Deep-seated fear, generational trauma
    • A perception that protest brings only bloodshed, not change

• Notable Quote:
  “It didn’t make sense to take to the streets in protest. It was too dangerous. … One source told me her friend's daughter was shot and killed on the street by what she described as pro–regime forces.”
  (Claire Tennisgetter, 04:49)

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Deep-Dive: Two Iranian Perspectives

4. "Si": The Disillusioned, Desperate Dissident (06:25–19:53)

Background and Upbringing (07:25–11:03)

• Early life marked by indoctrination:

  • “Most of the time we went to mosque and they're chanting, death to America. Death to Israel.” (Si, 07:54)
  • Exposure to Western culture through music and film sows seeds of doubt.

• Internal Awakening:

  • “And I wondered why they are chanting these slogans, why we are doing this? God can't be like this. That was a starting point to questioning the whole system.” (Si, 08:18)

• Secret Acts of Defiance:

  • His first protest: spray-painting “Death to Khamenei” as a 13-year-old (11:33–12:14)

Experience with Protest and Brutal Suppression (12:26–15:53)

• Joins mass protests, eventually realizing “lots of people were against this regime.” (Si, 13:20)
• January 2026: participation in massive, violently suppressed protests in Tehran.
  • “We realized that we are a lot. We can defeat them. … But after a few minutes, they started shooting people.” (Si, 14:12)
  • Reports of thousands killed; despair and trauma follow.

Why War? (16:12–19:53)

• Loses hope in protest:

  • “We couldn't find any other solution rather than war.” (Si, 16:12)
  • Sees war as an act of last-resort desperation, with hope that foreign intervention might finally topple the regime.

• Personal Toll and Complicated Family Dynamics:

  • Wife blames protestors for provoking war and suffering, adding to Si’s loneliness:
    • “You know, this is on you that people are suffering from war. If you didn't protest, everything could be better. Some people would be still alive.” (Si, 18:03)

• On Protest Going Forward:

  • “No, not at all. I think it doesn't work and it's not a good time to protest.” (Si, 19:23)

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5. "F": Quiet, Steadfast Resistance (21:20–34:43)

Background: From Revolutionary Family to Subversive Artist (23:10–26:07)

• Daughter of regime supporters, grew up steeped in the Islamic Republic’s values.

  • Family moved to front lines during Iran–Iraq war out of revolutionary commitment.

• Personal transformation:

  • Gradually rejects religious mandates (stops praying, removes hijab), becomes an engineer—rare for women at the time.
  • “I didn't want to bow to the rules of, you know, boys are better, boys can do anything.” (F, 26:29)

Quiet Resistance and Modeling Change (27:32–29:46)

• Briefly joined mass protest movements (2009 Green Movement) but gave up after seeing regime’s unassailable brutality.

  • “It will not work. It will make things worse. … I don't want to actually waste my energy on something that I see it is not possible.” (F, 27:25–27:41)

• Alternative Approach:

  • Focuses on “changing people’s mindset” and daily micro–acts of defiance — e.g., tweaking dress codes, rewriting her marriage contract for gender parity.
  • Emphasizes living her values: “If I can little by little change this part of the society … this is the best way, I think, for Iran.” (F, 28:23)

• Cultural Resistance:

  • Organizes and performs an all-but-banned solo concert of traditional Persian music before a clandestine crowd (“It was historical, I'm telling you,” F, 31:17).

On War and Belonging (31:35–34:43)

• Rejects war and foreign intervention:

  • Danced when Khamenei died, but completely opposed to US/Israeli strikes:
    • “We thought everybody is going out of the city, but actually no one is going out.” (F, 21:37)

• Steadfast in hope, love of country:

  • “We really belong to this country. … Iran is my meaning of life. I prefer a hard life with meaning to an easy life, empty.” (F, 32:37–33:07)

• Metaphor of hope:

  • “Like weeds growing through cracks in the sidewalk ... it's really the sign of hope.” (F, 34:43)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On Fear and Risk:
  “We heard a loud explosion.” (F, 03:51)
• Disillusionment:
  “Everything they told us from the beginning was a big lie.” (Si, 11:03)
• On Massacre During Protest:
  “They started shooting people into their heads.” (Si, 14:44)
• Desperation for War:
  “We couldn't find any other solution rather than war.” (Si, 16:12)
• Quiet Defiance:
  “Then I stopped doing prayers.” (F, 26:40)
• Hope in Daily Acts:
  “If I can little by little change this part of the society, which is very conservative and religious, that they accept that I am also a part of this society. … This is the best way, I think, for Iran.” (F, 28:23)
• On Belonging:
  “Iran is my meaning of life. I prefer a hard life with meaning to an easy life, empty.” (F, 33:07)
• The Sign of Hope:
  “Like weeds growing through cracks in the sidewalk ... it shows that you're hopeful, that you stay alive and you stay safe and you keep growing.” (F, 34:36–34:43)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction/Host setup — 00:33–02:05
• War blackout and outreach obstacles — 02:05–03:28
• Immediate civilian reactions — 03:28–04:49
• Why not protest? — 04:49–06:25
• Si’s dissident story — 06:25–19:53
• F’s quiet resistance — 21:20–34:43
• Metaphors of hope and closing reflections — 34:14–34:43

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Episode Tone and Language

The episode maintains The Daily’s characteristic blend of calm, precise journalism and emotionally vivid, personal storytelling. The language is direct but compassionate, letting the Iranians’ own words express anger, sorrow, longing, and resolve. Both despair (“We couldn't find any other solution rather than war.”) and dogged hope (“It shows that you’re hopeful, that you stay alive and you stay safe and you keep growing.”) are rendered in the voices and rhythms of lived reality.

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Conclusion

Through deeply intimate profiles of two very different Iranians — Si, the embittered dissident who reluctantly supports foreign war for change, and F, the pragmatic idealist practicing quiet daily resistance — the episode demonstrates the extraordinary cost, risk, and complexity of seeking change under dictatorship and siege. The episode closes with a powerful metaphor for hope: change as weeds pushing through even the smallest cracks, alive despite crushing odds.

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Transcript

[Claire Tennisgetter]

The Opinions Podcast from New York Times Opinion, bringing you a mix of conversations

[Rachel Abrams]

and new ideas featuring the voices of

[Claire Tennisgetter]

our writers and columnists.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

To me, the single most underestimated force

[Donald Trump]

in international relations is actually stupidity, including

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Jamelle Bouie, Trustee McMillan Cottom, Michelle Goldberg,

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Thomas Friedman, and many more. Find the Opinions wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rachel Abrams]

From the New York Times. I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is the Daily since the war with Iran began, President Trump has gone from urging Iranians to take cover and protect themselves to threatening to annihilate them. But with the ceasefire set to expire this week, very little has been heard from the Iranian people themselves. Today, my colleague Claire Tennis Guetter speaks to Iranians about how they view this war. It's Tuesday, april 21st.

[Donald Trump]

To the great, proud people of Iran, I say tonight that the hour of your freedom is at hand.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

The day the US And Israel launched its joint military operation against Iran, President Trump posted a video on Truth Social

[Donald Trump]

when we are finished, take over your government. It will be yours to take. This will be probably your only chance for generations.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

He urged the Iranian people to rise up against the government.

[Donald Trump]

Now is the time to seize control of your destiny and to unleash the prosperous and glorious future that is close within your reach. Moment for action. Do not let it pass.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But then bombs started to fall. People did not rise up. And so I wondered, what did Iranians think of this new war and the president's call to action? So I started reaching out to them. In the first days of the war, I sent nearly 100 messages, mostly to residents of Tehran, the site of some of the heaviest bombing. Still, I heard nothing. I could see most of my messages weren't even being opened. It wasn't that people didn't want to talk. They couldn't. Not only is it extremely dangerous for Iranians to speak to an American journalist, phone calls could be monitored by the regime.

[Rachel Abrams]

Iran has been in the dark for days, forced into a near total Internet blackout.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But the bigger problem was a communication blackout. Days have passed without word from family and friends. The Iranian government had effectively cut off the country from the rest of the world. The number I kept seeing was 99%. 99% of Iranians who normally had access to the Internet now didn't. I was trying to reach the remaining 1%. These would be people with workarounds like VPNs or enough money to afford satellite communications like Starlink that could get them online for even just a few minutes. And then, almost a week into the war, my colleagues And I got a few replies.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Hello?

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Some of them only had enough Internet to send text messages, but others were able to send short voice memos. I am in my own bedroom. I can say we've been through a lot lately.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

We heard a. A loud explosion.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I heard some loud bomb noises.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

At that time, people were still reeling from the war's initial shocks.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I woke up, and shortly after that, a huge cloud of smoke drifted into our classroom.

[Dane Brugler]

Right now, the Iranian state media is

[Claire Tennisgetter]

telling the people of Iran that the Ayatollah has been killed. Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, had just been killed in an airstrike. Many of the people I spoke with were critical of the regime. Like the vast majority of Iranians, Their spirits seemed high.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

People in the streets, we were chanting slogans and making the victory signs saying, military help from Israel and United States. It's here. It finally happened. They are here.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Then there were the Iranians who supported the regime. Many of those people were grieving, But others were angry and pledged to fight against the American and Israeli invaders. One Iranian who supported the regime said he heard people chanting, death to Trump. Every day the bombs are being dropped. When it came to Trump's call to overthrow the government, many of those opposed to the regime said it didn't make sense to take to the streets in protest. It was too dangerous. One source told me her friend's daughter was shot and killed on the street by what she described as pro regime forces. Our neighbor, who was a civilian, was killed in an attack. Another told me her neighbor was at work when he was killed by an airstrike. We weren't able to verify these stories. Still, there were other, more complicated reasons. People hadn't done the thing President Trump had imagined. Reasons that were decades old and rooted in the very idea of resistance in Iran. I found two people who told me that much deeper story. Two people who have very different views on the war and the best way to change Iran. However you are comfortable, can you introduce yourself to me?

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

What should I say? I'm now leaving Europe, but I'm leaving here by force.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

I reached a source who I'm going to refer to by his first initial, C. He was at his aunt's apartment in Europe. He had left Iran just days before the war broke out. He initially tried to go back. His wife, his family, they were all in Tehran. But at that time, with airstrikes ongoing, there were no flights back home. So you're stuck and waiting for to see what happens next.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Yeah, of course. You're right.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

It was a strange position to be in, locked outside your country while it was under attack. But because he was in Europe, he felt freer to open up to me about his life in Iran. Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? What it meant to you as a kid to be Iranian?

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I was a quiet person. Both of my parents worked outside.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Cee was born in the late 80s, around the time when the Islamic Republic was just a decade old. He grew up in the outskirts of

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Tehran, right at the border of a forest.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

His mom worked an office job and his dad was a mechanic. They would both work long hours.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

We were alone for a long time during our childhood.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So Si and his sister spent a lot of time with their grandfather.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

And most of the time we went to mosque and they're chanting, death to America. Death to Israel.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

It was in the mosque that he heard people chant Death to America. He said it was a sentiment that he heard in many places, in school, on tv. But it wasn't until he got a little bit older that he really started to fixate on those words.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

And I wondered why they are chanting these slogans, why we are doing this? God can't be like this. That was a starting point to questioning the whole system.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So you wondered why Iran hated the West, Why some people, including his government, claimed that believing in Islam and being a good Muslim meant being against non Muslim people. But to even have these questions was scary to see.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I was scared a lot.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

He'd heard stories of people being hanged for not believing in the government's messages.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

They made us believe all the bad things will happen to you.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So he tried to not have them at all. He already felt like an outsider. He was picked on and bullied at school. So to quietly wonder why things were the way they were made him feel even lonelier. He thought maybe he was even born in the wrong place.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I had to turn my feelings off to leave normal.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

He would often escape into his own world. He loved music and designing things. He once built his own handmade guitar.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I love creation. Any kind.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But Si's doubts only grew harder and

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

harder to ignore my father.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Like when he would ride in the car with his dad, he'd listen to Queen or the Bee Gees.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

And we were watching American movies.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And C himself would watch movies and shows about Westerners.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

We could see how they're similar to us. So there wasn't a question that America is our enemy.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

One of his favorite things to watch was was an anime adaptation of Anne of Green Gables. She was an Outsider, just like him.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I just sympathized because my appearance was similar to her.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And he noticed other things. Like in the school scenes, the boys and girls weren't separated, they were together, sitting side by side, interacting with each other. He wished his school was like that. So much so that before going to sleep at night, he would imagine himself sitting in that classroom. As the years passed, Tsi's thoughts shifted from doubts to disbelief. Disbelief in Islam, disbelief in his government, disbelief in the Supreme Leader. Where in his mind all of this came from.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Everything they told us from the beginning was a big lie.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But he largely kept his feelings a secret until holding them in became unbearable.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Suddenly I. I have to do something to. To empty my mind from this.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

One night around midnight, when he was about 13 years old, he took a black spray paint bottle to a wall in his neighborhood and he spray painted a message.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I decided to write death to Khamenei.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Death to the Ayatollah.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Because in my mind at that time, he was the reason for all our problems. They were scaring us most of time. And he ruined my best times of my whole life. So it was kind of revenge for me. And also I tried to tell other people that you are not alone thinking in this way.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Right after he wrote the message, he was scared. If he was caught, he could be severely punished. But when that didn't happen, he started to feel lighter.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I felt a sense of relief.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

This was his first act of protest. And as the years went by, he realized he wasn't alone. First in conversations with friends and even

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

family, the first one was.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But then later, during one of the last years he was in high school, while he was on his way home from the grocery store, he accidentally came upon a mass protest.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

That was the first moment I saw lots of people chanting anti governmental slogans. That was like the French Revolution.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

When he saw that, he realized many Iranians were keeping secrets like his.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I thought I'm not alone. And most people like, think like me or feel like me.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And many wanted change.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Lots of people were against this regime.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So he eventually decided to join them. And for nearly every demonstration in Tehran after that, sees as he protested too.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I went to almost all of them.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

He was protesting for an end to the regime. He wanted a democracy. Supporters of Iran's pro reformist candidate had

[Donald Trump]

taken to the streets of Tehran.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And as the years went by with new waves of crowds that formed over various issues, he thought that if enough people showed up, change would be possible. So this past January, when there were nationwide protests, he went out to the streets again in Tehran, top of the bridge. He told me that he went to a bridge and he looked out at these overwhelming crowds of people.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

It was unbelievable. And we realized that we are a lot. We can defeat them. They can rule us forever. But after a few minutes, they started shooting people.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Iran's security forces opened fired on protesters in at least six different neighborhoods in

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Tehran, shooting people into their heads.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

There were accounts of people being shot in the head, in the eyes, on rooftops. Similar massacres were unfolding in cities across the country.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

Everybody were running and we were scared.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

It's unclear how many people were killed by security forces. One human rights organization estimates the number to be around 7,000, but it could be even larger. The killings squelched the protest in a matter of days. Later, Si saw photos of some of the protesters who were killed.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

And I saw people's faces, People like me, young people, beautiful people. People were fighting for a normal life. And I thought I could be one of them.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Right. I'm so sorry. Si was shaken. He decided it would take something bigger than protest to oust the regime.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

We couldn't find any other solution rather than war.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So you were in some ways hopeful that there would be a war?

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I cannot call it hopeful. It was out of desperation.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And that's when the war started.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I was waiting for that moment with

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Si at his aunt's apartment in Europe.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I was worried for my family at first, and I wondered, what should I do next?

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Since he couldn't get safely back into the country, he watched the war from a distance. And as key leaders in the regime were killed one by one, like many Iranians, he felt optimistic. But as days turned into weeks, he also knew the war was taking a toll on Iranians.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I know hearing those missiles nearby, it can be horrible.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

He knew this from his own experience in the 12 Day War last summer, when nuclear facilities were bombed during 12 days war. But this war was different. Intense US and Israeli bombardment had damaged and sometimes destroyed factories, schools, hospitals and homes. Thousands of Iranians have lost their jobs, with estimates of more than a million people out of work. And more than 1700 civilians have been killed.

[Rachel Abrams]

Now to the latest in the war with Iran, President Trump says a whole civilization will likely die tonight.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And when President Trump threatened to end Iran's civilization, C was worried his family would be among them. He also was having a hard time getting in touch with them since the war. The communications blackout kept their conversation short. But his wife told him she was worried the US Would drop a nuclear bomb on Iran. His wife disagreed with his hope around the war, so it became harder and harder to talk about.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

She has different ideas, acting against the regime, and she always blamed people like me that wanted to get rid from this regime. You know, this is on you that people are suffering from war. If you didn't protest, everything could be better. Some people would be still alive.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Xi once again finds himself in a lonely position.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

But I think this is the cost of getting rid of this regime, and we have to pay it.

[Rachel Abrams]

Urgent developments tonight as President Trump announces

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

he's agreed to suspend the bomb.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And that's why when news of the ceasefire came and the regime was still standing, he felt mixed feelings. Agree to a deal and reopen the strain of hormones. He's now on his way back home. He's happy to get to return to his family and his favorite things, like his guitar. But he doesn't quite know what Iran he's returning to or what his role will be in shaping it. Do you still believe in protest as a way to achieve change?

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

No, not at all. I think it doesn't work and it's not a good time to protest.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

He told me that he still holds on to the possibility that maybe the ceasefire will fall apart, maybe the war will start up again. And while he's worried about what that might mean for the country and its people, he hopes that the US and Israeli militaries will accomplish what protests couldn't.

[Si (Iranian man in Europe)]

I'm still hoping. I'm still hoping.

[Rachel Abrams]

After the break, Claire has the story of another Iranian and what they've been thinking as they've seen the war unfolding. We'll be right back.

[Dane Brugler]

I'm Dane Brugler. I cover the NFL draft for the Athletic, spending the whole year working on a draft guide. I'm looking at thousands of players putting together hundreds of full scouting reports. All the nitty gritty details, the testing data, the stats, but extensive background research as well. Every journey is a little bit different. I'm on the phone with a lot of these guys. Hey, when did you start playing football? What other sports did you play? Tell me about your family. You know, learning more about these guys as people. Our draft guide picked up the name the Beast because of the crazy amount of information that's included. I have no idea how to quantify the hours I've spent putting it together. I've been covering this year's draft since last year's draft. There is a lot in the Beast that you simply can't find anywhere else. This is the kind of in depth, unique journalism you get from the Athletic and the New York Times. You can [e-mail] subscribe.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

I heard from another Iranian who is going by F to protect her identity.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I don't know why the road is so bad here.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

When I first got in touch, F was in her car on the road in Turkey after fleeing the war.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

We thought everybody is going out of the city, but actually no one is going out.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She introduced herself to me in a voice memo.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I'm just jumping quickly to the answers. I hope that it will help you.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

F is about 40 years old.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I'm a translator from English to Farsi.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She works as a book translator, a musician.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

We are childless by choice and she

[Claire Tennisgetter]

lives with her husband in a well off neighborhood in Tehran, in a home they didn't expect to leave. On the morning of February 28th, EF was getting ready to go to a yoga class when she looked out her window.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I was sitting on the third floor of my apartment and I heard like, I don't know, a rocket or something. Then I realized that, okay, it started.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She gathered empty vodka bottles left over from parties she'd hosted to fill with water. She read as much news as she could.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I thought the Internet will go away

[Claire Tennisgetter]

and prepared to hunker down. But the sounds of the explosions became too much for explosions. She told me it felt as if a trauma in her body had been awakened and

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

yeah, that's it.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And later, when she was out of her car and getting ready to go to sleep, she told me about where those feelings came from.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Okay, so I now found time to reply to the rest of the questions. How to put it. I didn't actually have a very rich childhood because my parents were very ordinary people.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

When F was a child, her parents were both teachers living on a modest income. They were supporters of the revolution that created the Islamic Republic in 1979 and a year later, when Iraq invaded Iran, they did what they could to back the regime and its war effort.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

The government would give them a flat.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

After F and her sister were born, her dad took a teaching job near the front lines and the whole family moved.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

My mom was so ideological and revolutionary that she insisted to my dad to go also to the front lines of the war.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She said her dad even joined the fight for eight months. It was intense for a child.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I remember running to the safe place in the garden which was dug in the ground when the planes would come.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But beyond a few flashbacks, F says she remembers very little about the war. And when it ended, she says she had a simple Childhood. Her household and school were modeled around the regime and religion. F often went to Friday prayers and revolution anniversaries. And she always wore a hijab like the girls in her class.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

There was also music.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She was drawn to music, but music

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

is totally like haram, you know, band.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But the regime effectively banned women from singing. To this day, women are not allowed to sing solo in public.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

So music was forbidden in our home because of religious reasons, because there are some.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So it was mostly absent at home. As a little girl, F remembers her mom quietly humming songs under her breath while working in the kitchen. But not truly singing. What was allowed in their house was reciting the Quran. And F was good at it.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I will recite the first surah. You know, it's the first.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She still remembers many of the verses.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

It was really something that I liked.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

F said she was so good that she was called into the school office every morning to recite the Quran during the school's flag raising ceremony.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

They were so like encouraging.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And she says she competed in national Quran reciting competitions and she excelled. But it wasn't something she pursued as a career.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

The best was engineering.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She chose to study engineering.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

There were mostly boys.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And for the first time, most of her classmates were boys.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

And I remember sometimes they would tell us not to take part in some things that were just boys thing.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Surrounded by boys, she became proud of being a girl.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I didn't want to bow to the rules of, you know, boys are better, boys can do anything. They can.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And so it was the beginning of a transformation for her.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Then I stopped doing prayers.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She turned away from religion, stopped praying, and eventually stopped wearing the hijab. Then she took her values to the streets.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Yes, I went on the streets.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

In 2009, F told me she joined thousands of Iranians to protest the re election of the conservative president at the time. In the so called green movement floodshed

[Rachel Abrams]

in the streets of Iran. At least seven people are reported to have been shot.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

The regime cracked down on the protest, killing dozens and arresting thousands.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

So then I think I realized that this is not the way.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

It was clear to F that the regime was too strong.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

It will not work. It will make things worse.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She no longer saw the point in protesting.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I decided I don't want to actually waste my energy on something that I see it is not possible.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

F figured the best way to achieve change wasn't to overthrow the regime or even loudly protest was to quietly resist what she disagreed with.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

It's about changing people's mindset.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And to F that meant trying to model the Iran she wanted to live in in her own life. Some of her changes were small freedom of choice and clothing, sometimes literally only measurable in inches.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Some longer shoes, like up to knees

[Claire Tennisgetter]

a little bit, or a subtle difference in material.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

A blouse which was mesh, you know, like you could.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

F also said she changed the words in her marriage contract for the divorce. Like we are to include the right to get divorced.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

If I can little by little change this part of the society, which is very conservative and religious, that they accept that I am also a part of this society, I accept they are also part of part of the society. Let's just get along with each other. This is the best way, I think, for Iran.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Years passed, and she says she did see Iranian society change.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Then I really started to, you know, inspire others. Also.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

More women on the streets of Tehran were abandoning the hijab.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

When I saw that women are actually not wearing it on the street anymore, it was really amazing.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She says male taxi drivers that used to refuse her as a customer for not wearing a hijab now don't care. And she started to push boundaries through something she hadn't been able to explore as a kid. Singing. She started singing traditional Persian music. First she sang at home, then at parties with friends. Eventually, she started planning a solo concert, even though this was still forbidden as a woman,

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

it was openly in a place that would hold private concerts, and the sounding system was really good.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

And just as with her other acts of disobedience, F was pushing the boundaries without completely rebelling against the regime.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Traditional music.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

For her concert, she planned to sing traditional Iranian music.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

It was not pop, not pop or

[Claire Tennisgetter]

other genres associated with the West. And she would have one man on stage with her, playing the kamancha, a traditional Persian instrument.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Also activist kind of musician.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But she would be the sole singer with a lineup of songs about women.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

All the poems and all the music was from women's movement.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She said they sold tickets to about 80 people.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

We were ready to be captured.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

The night of the show, she was nervous, thinking she might be arrested. But she stepped out on stage and sang,

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

And really everything was the way I wanted.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She was able to have her concert the first time she ever got to sing like that. She looked into the audience and saw women and men.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

It was historical, I'm telling you. It was really something historical to her.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

It felt like something big was happening.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

And I can do much more than this. I know

[Claire Tennisgetter]

to F, it was evidence that this kind of resistance works. And while F understands just how brutal the regime can be. She has come to believe that the only answer to reform Iran's government is from within. Which is why, when the threat to the regime came from the outside, through the US And Israel, she was especially against it.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

The United States and Israel are launching airstrikes across Iran.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So on that first morning, watching the strikes from her apartment window, F already had a clear opinion. She's happy to learn that Ayatollah Khamenei was killed. She even did a little dance. And yet she completely opposed the war.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

We filled in the car, the petrol, and then we hit the road.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

While in Turkey, I asked EF if she had ever thought about leaving Iran for good.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

I could have gone all my life to other countries, she said.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She had, many times in her life.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

But then my husband and I, we think that we really belong to this country.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

But a few years ago, she decided she would stay no matter what. And as she watched the destruction of Iran and heard about President Trump's threat to destroy its civilization, she's found herself even more committed to the country. She loves Iran deeply, and she's decided she would rather live there than anywhere else in the world.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

It's so rich in every aspect that you cannot go live somewhere else. You know, we need meaning, and Iran is my meaning of life. I prefer a hard life with meaning to an easy life, empty. So it's like this, you know, for me.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

So, two weeks ago, just before the ceasefire was announced, EF and her husband left Turkey and went back home to Tehran.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

We arrived last night.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

I could hear the happiness in her voice.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Can you hear this noise from the background? I'm at the Balia Square, and what is going on here is like a ceremony, which I don't know if it is.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

She's not sure if the ceasefire will last, but she's holding on to hope.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

You know, there is this Arabic phrase. It says. It means we are doomed to hope,

[Claire Tennisgetter]

to have hope, and so long as it does, she thinks there's a chance to create change.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

Like, have you seen this greenery that grows on the corner of a sidewalk?

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Even if it's only in the small spaces where change is possible, like weeds growing through cracks. And the sidewalk, the.

[Farsi-speaking Iranian woman (F)]

It's. It's really the sign, the sign of hope. It shows that you're hopeful, that you stay alive and you stay safe and you keep growing.

[Rachel Abrams]

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know. Today, Apple chief executive Tim Cook said that he would step down after nearly 15 years, ending one of the most successful management runs in the history of American business. Cook will move into a new role as Apple's executive chairman in September, and he'll be succeeded by John Ternus, who's currently the head of hardware engineering. During Cook's tenure, Apple's annual profit quadrupled to more than $110 billion and its value ballooned more than tenfold to $4 trillion. And Laurie Chavez Darimer, President Trump's embattled labor secretary, stepped down on Monday amid a cloud of scandal and investigation, marking the third member of his cabinet to depart the administration in two months. Chavez Durimer was facing a whistleblower complaint of professional misconduct, including claims that she was having an affair with a member of her team and that she used department resources for personal trips. The Labor Department's inspector general's office found evidence that Chavez Jarimer and her staff misused federal funds to pay for luxury hotels, SUV rentals and meals. Today's episode was reported and produced by Claire tennisgetter. It was also produced by Jess Chung, Ricky Novetsky and Lindsay Garrison, with help from Rochelle Bonga and Ben Calhoun. It was edited by Maria Byrne, Lindsay Garrison and Michael Benoit, with research help from Susan Lee and Artemis Mostagian. Original music by Dan Powell and Alicia Beitub additional music by Marian Lozano, Sophia Landman and Leah Shaw Dameron. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to Farnaz Fasihi Yara, Bayumi Yagana, 20 Torbati Perrin Behruz, Shirin Hakim, Sahar Dalat Shahi and Adrian Carter. That's it for the Daily I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.