How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church

Summary

Summary of "How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church"

Introduction

In the April 22, 2025 episode of The Daily by The New York Times, host Michael Barbaro delves into the transformative papacy of Pope Francis and his profound impact on the Catholic Church. The episode, featuring insights from Rome Bureau Chief Jason Horowitz, explores Pope Francis's efforts to modernize the Church, the resulting divisions between liberal and conservative factions, and the enduring legacy he leaves behind for the world's 1.4 billion Catholics.

Pope Francis' Background and Rise to Papacy

Pope Francis, born Jorge Bergoglio in Buenos Aires, Argentina, hailed from a humble, middle-class Italian immigrant family. His deep-rooted connection to his community and empathetic nature were shaped by his upbringing in a vibrant, immigrant neighborhood. As a Jesuit priest, Francis was known for his intellectual approach, commitment to social justice, and relatable persona—highlighted early in his career by his choice to commute by bus, symbolizing his humility and connection to everyday people.

Jason Horowitz explains, "Francis was the first Cardinal in Buenos Aires to break the mold, epitomized by his image taking the bus—something rarely seen in high-ranking church officials" (08:04). This gesture set the tone for his papacy, signaling a departure from traditional ecclesiastical norms.

In 2013, following the unexpected retirement of Pope Benedict XVI, Bergoglio was elected as Pope Francis. His choice of the name "Francis" paid homage to St. Francis of Assisi, reflecting his dedication to humility and poverty. As Horowitz recounts, "On the balcony, his greeting was more colloquial—'good evening, buena sera'—making him more relatable than his regal predecessors" (11:01).

Reform and Changing Priorities

Pope Francis embarked on his papacy with a clear vision to make the Church more relevant and compassionate. He emphasized reaching out to the "peripheries," both geographically and socially, urging priests to engage directly with people and address real-life issues. Francis's inaugural speech resonated powerfully: "We have got to get out of the Church and go to... deal with the lives they're actually living" (10:10).

Under his leadership, Francis prioritized issues such as climate change, migration, and human rights. He became a global voice for the marginalized, advocating for renewable energy and compassionate immigration policies. Horowitz notes, "Francis is the Pope of mercy. He's the Pope of the poor" (15:31), highlighting his focus on pastoral care over doctrinal rigidity.

Backlash and Conservative Opposition

Francis's progressive initiatives sparked significant backlash from conservative factions within the Vatican. His efforts to remove traditionalist figures, such as Cardinal Raymond Burke—the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith—were seen as direct threats to longstanding Church doctrines. Horowitz describes the situation: "Francis’s house cleaning involved firing key conservatives who were seen as gatekeepers of the Church’s traditional teachings" (19:45).

Conservatives feared that Francis's actions would lead to doctrinal erosion, prompting them to submit dubias—formal questions challenging his interpretations. When confronted with these challenges, Francis opted to ignore them, focusing instead on his broader mission. "He doesn't want to give them oxygen," Horowitz explains (22:07), underscoring his strategy to maintain his reform agenda without getting entangled in internal theological disputes.

Progressive Expectations and Disappointment

While conservatives resisted Francis's changes, progressives within the Church held high expectations for substantial reforms, such as married priests and the ordination of women. However, many of Francis's initiatives remained symbolic rather than enact significant policy shifts. For instance, he "cracked open the door" on receiving communion for divorced Catholics (27:23) and allowed debate on women deacons without advancing concrete changes (27:23).

Horowitz comments, "Liberals began to realize that Francis might not implement the sweeping changes they hoped for, leading to frustration on both ends of the spectrum" (26:47). This nuanced approach left the progressive wing feeling unmet, as Francis prioritized unity and gradual evolution over radical transformation.

Legacy and Long-term Impact

Despite not fulfilling all expectations from both sides, Pope Francis's legacy lies in shifting the Church's priorities towards compassion, inclusivity, and pastoral care. Horowitz reflects, "Francis changed the priorities or the idea of what the Catholic Church is about. He reminded people why the Church exists" (33:12). His efforts to appoint like-minded cardinals and bishops set the stage for future leadership aligned with his vision, ensuring ongoing dialogue and potential reforms.

Francis emphasized the importance of consensus within the global Church, recognizing the diverse cultural contexts of Catholics worldwide. "The future of the Church is in Africa, it is in Asia," he noted, advocating for a unified mission without alienating key regions (28:49).

Conclusion: The Final Farewell

Pope Francis's passing marked the end of an era characterized by his compassionate leadership and attempts to modernize the Church. His funeral, held in an undecorated tomb bearing the name "franciscus," reflected his lifelong commitment to humility and simplicity. As Horowitz poignantly states, "He was a guide... He was going in a very positive direction" (37:03).

While controversies and unmet expectations surrounded his papacy, Pope Francis succeeded in redefining the Church's role in the modern world. His focus on mercy, pastoral care, and global relevance continues to influence the Catholic Church, setting a foundation for future leaders to build upon his transformative vision.

Notable Quotes

• "We have got to get out of the Church and go to... deal with the lives they're actually living." — Pope Francis (10:10)

• "Francis is the Pope of mercy. He's the Pope of the poor." — Unknown Speaker (15:31)

• "He doesn't want to give them oxygen." — Jason Horowitz discussing Francis's response to conservative backlash (22:07)

• "Francis changed the priorities or the idea of what the Catholic Church is about." — Pope Francis (33:12)

Key Takeaways

• Humility and Accessibility: Pope Francis redefined papal humility through symbolic gestures like commuting by public transport, making him relatable to everyday Catholics.

• Focused Reform: While not enacting sweeping doctrinal changes, Francis prioritized shifting the Church's focus towards pastoral care, social justice, and global relevance.

• Navigating Division: His attempts to balance progressive aspirations with conservative doctrines led to significant internal conflict, highlighting the complexity of reforming a deeply traditional institution.

• Enduring Influence: By appointing like-minded leaders and fostering open debate, Francis ensured that his vision would continue to influence the Church's trajectory, despite immediate challenges and unmet expectations.

Pope Francis's tenure marked a pivotal moment in the Catholic Church's history, embodying both the challenges and possibilities of modernizing a centuries-old institution.

Transcript

[Michael Balbaro]

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[Jason Horowitz]

From the New York Times. I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the daily On Monday, church bells rang out across the world, from Mexico City to Paris to Kurdistan to mark the death of Pope Francis at the age of 88. Today I speak with my colleague, Rome Bureau Chief Jason Horowitz, about the pope's push to change the church, his bitter clashes with traditionalists, and and what his papacy ultimately means to the world's 1.4 billion Catholics. It's Tuesday, April 22nd.

[Michael Balbaro]

Jason, good evening. We know it's late there and that it's been a long day for you, so thank you.

[Pope Francis]

Happy to be here.

[Michael Balbaro]

I know from the messages we've been exchanging today in preparation for this conversation that you've spent some time in St. Peter's Square, where mourners are now gathered. Can you just describe that scene to us?

[Pope Francis]

Sure. Well, earlier in the day, a strange sort of scene. It was mostly tourists, and you had a feeling that a lot of people didn't even know what had happened. But as the day went on and pilgrims and people who were there to mourn Francis started arriving, and you could really sense a sort of somber feeling take over. And by the end of the evening, there were tens of thousands of people there paying tribute to a pope who had led the church for a dozen years, but more important than that, who had pointed the church in a new direction that a lot of them really hoped the church would continue following. And some were there also, maybe hoping it took a turn in a different direction, in a new direction or an old direction, depending on how you look at it.

[Michael Balbaro]

Well, that's, I think, what we really want to talk to you about, the legacy and meaning of this papacy, which turned out to be in some ways more divisive than I think those of us watching from the very beginning might have imagined that it might be. And I think actually you came to Rome pretty much around the same time that Francis became pope. So I want you to just talk a little bit about the ultimate legacy of Francis.

[Pope Francis]

When I think of Francis, I think of sort of a dividing line in the Roman Catholic Church, that there are those who see him as finally a Breath of fresh air, who came in willing to introduce or at least entertain reforms that would thrust the Church into modernity. And so on the liberal sort of side of the Church, they saw in Francis the guy who was finally going to go to bat for them and who was going to make these changes and who was going to make the Church much more relevant. On the other side of the coin, you had conservatives who had been in power for decades with John Paul II and Benedict xvi, first saw Francis as actually on their side, but then came to fear him, and came to fear him and what he might do to the doctrine of the Church, to what they consider the truth of the Church, that he would basically shake it so much that he would break it.

[Michael Balbaro]

Wow.

[Pope Francis]

And as a result, there was a robust opposition to him within the Vatican and beyond. And I think in the end, it's not clear what side he's on, because I don't think he thought of himself that way. I think he thought of himself as doing something very different, being a Pope for not the partisan sides of the church, but for the flock.

[Michael Balbaro]

Well, I think to understand how Francis became a dividing line, even if he himself never saw himself that way, we need to talk about his background and how that background made so many people on the left and right see him as a change agent. So tell us the story of how he came to be that dividing line.

[Pope Francis]

So Francis is born as Jorge Bergoglio is from Buenos Aires in Argentina. He's from a very humble neighborhood. You know, he's not poor, but he's more sort of middle class, but just a normal family of Italian descent. His grandmother, who he was deeply close to and who was deeply religious, was an Italian immigrant. And that also, that experience of being growing up and also in an immigrant neighborhood, I think opened his eyes to people trying to make it. And there were also influences throughout his life and his upbringing that I think had a lasting effect. He wanted to be a chemist at a certain point and he had teachers who had communist politics. And it didn't mean that he was a communist. Right. Which is what some of his critics said. But he sees the world from a bottom up point of view. And that just imbues him with an empathy that in a way is his sort of guiding light right through everything.

[Michael Balbaro]

So what draws him to the Church, which is of course about helping people, but is very hierarchical and perhaps not so in keeping with this bottom up approach that he's becoming fixated on.

[Pope Francis]

Right. The Roman Catholic faith was always really present in Bergoglio's Life. So he had a sense of the church as an important institution in one's life. And you know, at a certain point, he's a teenager, he has a bunch of friends, he's going to go hang out with them. But he passes the Basilica of St. Joseph and he has an epiphany. He feels a calling and he decides that no, he's not going to be a chemist, he is going to dedicate his life to the church. He wants to be a priest. And that changes his life and it changes the life of the church eventually. So Francis becomes a priest and he's a Jesuit priest, which is a Catholic order, probably best known for being intellectuals. They care a lot about education, they travel around the world, they believe a lot in social justice. And even though the hierarchy isn't necessarily what interests him, he climbs the hierarchy and eventually he becomes the Cardinal of Buenos Aires, which is a huge figure in Argentina, huge figure within South America. And stories start being told about this cardinal in Buenos Aires who is a little bit different. And I was covering the Vatican back then and I remember there's there was this image of him which made the rounds and it was this cardinal taking the bus. And that was just something you didn't see much. You know, I've thought maybe that this is, this is someone to pay attention to.

[Michael Balbaro]

So the way that he married these influences of his childhood, his love of neighborhood, perhaps some of that bottom up teaching with actually being a high ranking church member was to do something as simple as taking the bus, making sure that his commute from home to the church is done on public transportation.

[Pope Francis]

Yeah, Francis, I mean, even before he was Pope Francis, he was sort of a master of gestures. It showed his flock, the entire country, that he didn't think that he was better than them. That was a talent he had.

[Michael Balbaro]

So how does he become not just this quirky master of the gesture cardinal, but actually the Pope.

[Pope Francis]

So I think it's important to remember where the church was in 2013, the year Francis became Pope. It had been governed and led for decades by a very conservative streak. And the Pope at the time was Benedict xvi, who had been the keeper of the orthodoxy, the guardian of the Church's doctrine. And he retired, which shocked the entire world.

[Michael Balbaro]

Right. Popes don't retire.

[Pope Francis]

Right. It was a shock. And the question is, okay, where's the Church going to go now? Right. And so now maybe the Church needed to try something new. Right? It had been with the Italians for centuries, then it tried Europe. And so the idea was, well, these cardinals Were probably going to look elsewhere from Europe. And so the way it works is before the Conclave begins.

[Michael Balbaro]

And Conclave, we should just say, is the kind of election ritual of the Catholic Church.

[Pope Francis]

That's right. It means with a key, they lock them in with a key so that they can't come out until they pick a new Pope. But there's a small timeframe before that begins in which the cardinals can sort of. It's not campaigning because you're not allowed to campaign. And campaign is definitely frowned upon. But you can give speeches about what you think is most important for the Church. Right. So Francis Bergoglio at the time gives this speech which is very short and basically what he says is we have closed the door in on ourselves. We are so self referential. It's time not just for us to open the windows and let fresh air in. It's time for us to get out.

[Michael Balbaro]

Wow.

[Pope Francis]

We have got to get out of the Church and go to what he calls the peripheries. Right. So far away. We need to go where people are. We need to sort of be on the streets with these people. And he means it sort of literally, Right. He wants priests to get out of their churches and go talk to people. But he also means it's time for us to stop being so obsessed with ourselves and go talk to people and deal with the lives they're actually living. We need to go to them to show them that we care and show them why we think that this is the best way to live. And that speech really sort of knocks everyone's socks off. And they decide when they go into the Conclave, this is the guy who's going to lead us.

[Michael Balbaro]

Were you there in Vatican City when he was named Pope?

[Pope Francis]

I was. I was in St. Peter's Square. Annun S jovobis gaudium minum abemus papavm. And I remember that they announced the Pope's name in Latin. Cui civi nomen imposuit Franciscum. And what was also very important, I think was the name he took. So he's the first Pope ever to take the name Francis, who's a 13th century saint who is known for being extremely humble and vows of poverty. And by taking the name Francis, that was, again, this is a master of gestures already a strong sign to his fellow cardinals and to the world that his priorities were going to be different. One of the things I remember is that as soon as he came out onto the balcony, he was just more colloquial. And, you know, one of the first Things he said is like, you know, good evening, buena sera. Right. It just. It seemed less sort of like a regal address to the masses below him than someone who people could relate to.

[Michael Balbaro]

Right. I remember watching this all, hearing those details you were just describing and starting to think, oh, something interesting is going on here inside the Catholic Church. But I assume this was the case with many people reserving judgment because this is an incredibly traditional, rule bound institution.

[Pope Francis]

Yeah. And he's doing all these things that symbolically say, wow, something's totally different here. But you're right, this is an institution. So the question was, was this all style or was there going to be substance here? So right away, he says something which completely shocks the world, which is when he's asked about gay priests, and he says, well, who am I to judge right now? This is the Pope.

[Michael Balbaro]

The answer is, for the past many centuries, you're exactly the person to judge.

[Pope Francis]

Right? Right, Exactly. This is the Pope. This is the guy. Like, his job description is Judgin. He says, but, you know, that's not what I'm here for. Right. And eyes go wide when he says that. And people start saying, well, wait a minute, maybe this is something really different here. So there's tons of these little things, and sometimes not so little things. Right. He starts saying, if you're a married, divorced person in the church, maybe you can receive communion again. And now that's been a no, no. Right. That's against the doctrine. Everyone is all of a sudden paying attention to Rome, where you have this guy who is really turning the church on its head, and people start talking about something called the Francis effect. Are all these people gonna start coming back to the church and filling the pews because they love Francis so much? And then the sort of the policy questions start arising, especially from people who have been out in the cold for a long time in the Catholic Church. Right. People who want married priests, people who want women to be priests, people who want all sorts of things are saying, wait, maybe this is the guy who's gonna finally change things.

[Michael Balbaro]

Right. Maybe a revolution is genuinely afoot in this most unrevolutionary institution.

[Pope Francis]

Exactly. And he feels very much like a man of the moment. Think about it. At that time, you have Barack Obama in the White House, you have Angela Merkel in Germany, you have liberal leaders across Europe. You have this feeling that there's this migration crisis and it's time to help these people. Right. And we've got to find a solution to this. As many European nations debate tougher immigration policies, Pope Francis has highlighted the value of migrants.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Earlier, Francis urged a joint meeting of Congress to reject what he called a mindset of hostility towards refugees and undocumented immigrants.

[Pope Francis]

He becomes a beacon on issues like climate change, which he cares deeply about. With the global gathering of Catholic bishops as a backdrop, Pope Francis warned the world is approaching the point of no return. On climate, he urged decisive acceleration to renewable energies and away from oil and gas. So on that, on questions of human rights and human dignity, Pope Francis is the Pope of mercy. He's the Pope of the poor.

[Unknown]

He's the Pope that visits inmates.

[Pope Francis]

And he seems very much to be on the forefront of all of this. Right. He's not just a spiritual leader stuck in the Vatican. He's a global player.

[Jason Horowitz]

His Twitter account, Pontifex, ranks in the top five most searched words on the Internet.

[Pope Francis]

And he's everywhere. Time magazine names Pope Francis as its Person of the Year. Time calls the Holy Father a septuagenarian superstar. It's hard to overstate how big a deal Francis was. I mean, all over the world, everyone felt it, but especially if you were someone covering the Vatican, which had sort of become sleepy.

[Michael Balbaro]

Yeah.

[Pope Francis]

And irrelevant in a way, to the big discussions going on. All of a sudden, you know, the Roman Catholic Church had a leader who was not just at the table, but in some ways, you know, was sort of dictating the agenda. But while he's sort of getting all this adoration within the church itself, there starts to be a feeling that, not just of bemusement, but of real concern amongst conservatives that, wait a minute, is this guy actually going to start changing the rules of the church? And the rules of the Church isn't just sort of legislation. Right. It's the truth for them. And so the idea that you would have a pope who is extremely popular, using that popularity to change doctrine, what they care most about, starts really causing a lot of fear within conservative circles. And a backlash starts building.

[Michael Balbaro]

We'll be right back. This podcast is supported by Sierra.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

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[Unknown]

Hi, I'm Claire Tennisgetter. I'm one of the many names you hear in the list of credits on the Daily every week. A big part of my job as a producer is talking to my colleagues, to New York Times reporters, to get their expertise on the news. But we also want to explore the human side of the news. And so another big part of my job is talking to people about how they're experiencing what's happening in the world. That can mean walking up to people on the street, making cold calls. It's spending months making sure we represent all sides of the story, whether it's about what shapes our political identities or how we're coping with crises. We always feel like there's something to learn from these conversations. We often hear from listeners that these types of stories are what makes the daily special, and we want to keep bringing them to you. We can't do that without subscriber support. If you haven't subscribed to the New York Times, you can do [e-mail] subscribe and thanks.

[Michael Balbaro]

Jason. Talk about this backlash that you just mentioned, which I think means talking through what changes Pope Francis brings to the day to day operations and teachings of the church itself, not just the things he's saying to the outside world.

[Pope Francis]

There's a saying in the Vatican that personnel is policy. And one of the first things that Francis starts doing is getting rid of people. And so the guy who is in charge of the office that protects the doctrine, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, it's called he gets fired. There's an American cardinal named Raymond Burke who's the head of what is essentially the Supreme Court of the Vatican. He's kicked off all these figures who are sort of the favorite heroes of the traditionalists and the conservatives and the church. The heads start rolling.

[Michael Balbaro]

This is looking like a real kind of traditionalist house cleaning.

[Pope Francis]

It is a bit of a house cleaning is what's going on. And these are figures who, especially in the case of Burke, one of his positions was he was on something called a congregation of bishops. And what they do is they pick the next generation of bishops. So that's a big deal, right? Because that means that all the clergy and all the, you know, the bishops who really run things for the next generation are going to be of a different mindset. And that mindset becomes clear, is much less traditional and is much more open to debate and much more pastoral. And that's sort of the guiding word for Francis, pastoral. And again, it goes back to, you know, the very beginnings with him. And he just wants a bishop and he wants a priest who's going to be with people and helping them work things out. He doesn't want somebody shaking their finger at a parishioner and saying, no, no, you can't do that. That's not what we do here. And so that turns out to be a major shift. And it's not changing the laws of the Church. The doctrine, what was doctrine the day before Francis got in, is still doctrine now. But even if it's not changing the laws, the people who love the laws start thinking that this is a gigantic threat to that old mindset.

[Michael Balbaro]

And what is the reaction among those who see this as a threat?

[Pope Francis]

You know, at first they give them some time. You know, they give him a couple years, and then they start saying, well, this is really dangerous. And a couple of them start speaking out. It's very, very unusual to challenge the Pope if you're a cardinal. Right, right. And the whole thing is basically a hierarchy that's based on the idea that the Pope is in charge and that you might agree, you might disagree, but if you disagree, you probably don't go out and say something because he's the Pope. That changes. The conservatives are so upset and they're so worried that Francis is going to wreck the Church, that they start even sending in these complicated, technical Vatican things called dubias, which are questions. And what they're doing is they're questioning Francis own understanding of what he's doing. They're saying, you said this thing. Do you really know what you're talking about?

[Michael Balbaro]

Wow.

[Pope Francis]

And so Francis, who's very politically savvy, responds in a way that drives them crazy, which is he doesn't even deign to respond.

[Michael Balbaro]

Wow.

[Pope Francis]

He ignores them, completely drives them nuts.

[Michael Balbaro]

Why?

[Pope Francis]

Because he doesn't want to give them oxygen, is what I think is what it was at the time. There are small but noisy, if somewhat powerful within the Vatican group, but he knows he is wildly popular figure around the world. He's wildly popular, especially with rank and file Catholics. Regular Catholics adore him because they see him as caring about them. And so why would he all of a sudden get into a theological argument with a conservative opposition group within the Church, which is not what he sees himself there for? So he ignores them. But while he ignores them, they don't go away. They keep building momentum. And many of them happen to be American, because the American church is extremely conservative, traditionally very conservative. And in America, there is a lot of money and there is a lot of media, and those two things amplify the opposition to Francis.

[Unknown]

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, full stop. However, when he goes and talks about politics that doesn't deal with theology or the church or infallibility.

[Pope Francis]

And it becomes also very much attached to and married to populist politics. So you have people like Steve Bannon coming to Rome.

[Unknown]

The Pope has been consistent that all the problems in the world are because of this populist nationalist movement.

[Pope Francis]

And he's using his outlets to try and, you know, amplify the messages that are coming out of the conservative American church. And it ends up being this sort of strange ecosystem with a common target, and that is Francis.

[Unknown]

So Pope Francis should stop worrying about the criticism of Donald Trump and he should start to worry about this crisis in the Catholic Church.

[Pope Francis]

It keeps getting bigger and bigger. You know, I remember being in a basement of a hotel where all the entire opposition to Francis, essentially within the Vatican had gathered.

[Michael Balbaro]

Wow.

[Pope Francis]

And there was Cardinal Burke on the dais and he basically said that we have a problem where we think the Pope might be a heretic. Right. He couches his language.

[Michael Balbaro]

That's an extraordinary thing to suggest.

[Pope Francis]

Yeah. And it wasn't unusual in that crowd. Right. They had basically become convinced that, oh, we have a major problem here. We have a Pope who doesn't believe in what the Catholic Church believes in. Allegations of COVID up come to the Vatican and Pope Francis remains mum. Then eventually you have actually accusations levied against Francis, accusing him of knowing about child sexual abuse and hiding it.

[Michael Balbaro]

In a bombshell letter, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano urges Pope Francis to resign over.

[Pope Francis]

What he calls a conspiracy of silence about McCarrick. And it ends up being a full on sort of revolt against Francis. He tries to stay above it, but I remember I asked him once on a flight, I said, you know, these people, they can't stand you and they're talking about breaking apart from the Church. What do you think? I mean, what's your opinion about this? And he basically said something that I thought was really interesting. He said, look, the history of the Church is very, very long. There's been lots of schisms. Right. These people breaking apart. I hope they don't do it, but if they do it. And he sort of shrugged and he said, then they do it. I'm not scared. In other words, he's saying, you know, have a party, guys, if you really want to break away on this.

[Michael Balbaro]

He's daring them.

[Pope Francis]

Yeah. He was saying, like he was chicken.

[Michael Balbaro]

With them because on some level he knows they're probably not going to do it.

[Pope Francis]

They're probably not going to do it. And it's also not what he thinks it's about. Right. He thinks that this is a distraction from doing the mission of the church, which is going out and being pastors, to people who need their help.

[Michael Balbaro]

So, Jason, as this revolt, as you're describing it, is playing out among the conservative wings of the church, I'm curious how the progressive side of the ledger is seeing Pope Francis, because the things you're describing, the personnel changes that he's making, I'm guessing that they don't satisfy the appetite for change among progressives who want big sweeping changes around issues like who can be a priest and who can take communion.

[Pope Francis]

Exactly. I think what these initial sort of symbolic changes that Francis does, that what they do is they whet the appetite of liberals in the Catholic Church and they who start thinking, oh, my God, this guy's actually going to make huge changes. And they're waiting, and then they're waiting some more. And I think it starts dawning on liberals that maybe he's actually not going to change anything and that maybe this is actually symbolic. And the very things that upset the conservatives in a way also upset the liberals, because it's not enough for the liberals.

[Michael Balbaro]

Fascinating, right? What's the definition of not enough?

[Pope Francis]

Well, I mean, if you look across the board, there's things where he seemed to walk right up to the line on. For example, remember when we talked about divorce, it seemed like it was he had opened the door, he was gonna walk right through it. Instead, all he did was crack open the door. He never actually made the change. But then even on sort of the hot button topics of the Catholic Church, such as women becoming priests, no movement on that, women becoming deacons, he closes the door on that as well. He allows a little bit of debate, but it's debate that he's allowing and he's not changing the rules. And so at a certain point, it starts dawning on liberals in the church that, wait a minute, maybe this guy's actually not going to change anything. Maybe this is all about sort of redirecting the ship. But where are we going to go? Is he going to move it forward?

[Michael Balbaro]

Why do you think that he wasn't willing to use this extraordinary authority he has to make these kinds of changes? I mean, if he's willing to say to the US Conservative wing of the Catholic Church, I'm sorry, you don't like it if you need to break off, break off. If he's willing to do that, why not make some of the changes that it felt like in his heart he might have wanted to make? Or is that a misreading of it? Is it the case that he actually didn't want to see these changes, or was he worried that he might take the Church someplace it wasn't ready to go?

[Pope Francis]

I think that the important way to see this and the important way Francis saw this is that the Church is much bigger than Europe and the United States. The future of the Church, if you look around, is in Africa, it is in Asia. And if you make these big changes, right, you are going to lose a lot of people. So on LGBTQ Catholics, right, which was a major issue, especially for people in the United States and Europe, he opened the church, Right. He let people in, but he wouldn't change the rules, maybe because in Africa, homosexuality amongst Catholics is viewed very, very negatively. What Europe or the United States would view as progress would be viewed as a deal breaker for the place that actually has people and has the future of the Church. Right. So I think if there was a conservative argument that Francis came to understand or accept was that the unity of the Church was extremely important. And maybe he didn't want to be the guy who destroyed the whole thing over what might, in a way, be an interest group, you know, a Western liberal interest group. And I think really what he believes is that he believes that the Church is going to be around a long time. And what he did is he opened up these debates and he wants the Church to reach a sort of consensus on these things so that it can move together. Now, that's really hard, right, because the world's a big place with lots of different views and lots of different Catholics see things differently. But I think that he thinks to make those big changes to doctrine and to law, you want everyone to be on board, or at least a consensus that you feel like you're not going to break the Church apart.

[Michael Balbaro]

Jason, listening to you talk, I'm thinking of that phrase you used at the beginning of our conversation about the dividing line over Francis. And in hearing you talk about what Francis was willing to let upset conservatives and liberals, the through line seems to be a desire to make sure that the largest number of Catholics possible in the fastest growing places in the world end up seeing the Church as relevant. And if something doesn't do that, he doesn't really want to be a part of it. And if someone stands in his way of something that might do that, he would dismiss them. Am I getting that right?

[Pope Francis]

Well, I think you're right that he's got a very tricky balancing act. Right. I think for Francis, it's not just about being relevant, which he desperately wants the Church to be relevant in the lives of Catholics all around the world. But it's not just to be about being relevant in the fastest growing places or the places where the future of the Church is. I think for Francis, he also wants to make sure that the Catholics in Europe and the United States are still part of this giant mission. But I think what he has little patience for, and I think this is where he ran into trouble with some of the American conservatives, is what he views as ideological or politically motivated dissent. I think when he senses that the motivation behind this has more to do with power, more to do with the word he uses, which he hates more than anything, is clericalism, the idea that a priest is higher than his flock. It turns him off immediately. And I think that's what he was trying to sort of rid the Church of.

[Michael Balbaro]

Well, Jason, the really complex portrait you were presenting here is of a Pope who inspires both the progressive and conservative wings of the Catholic Church to think things that don't really come to pass. The progressive wing thinks that Francis is going to be this revolutionary figure who delivers decades worth of changes in a short period. And he does it on all kinds of fronts. And then the conservative wing is suspicious of him in this profound way, thinks he's going to tear the Church apart and break all its traditions. And he doesn't do that either. So in a sense, he lets down both sides. I mean, in that sense, what exactly is his legacy? When we think about that concept you brought up at the very beginning of this dividing line and where he sits on it.

[Pope Francis]

Yeah, I agree with you. I think in many ways he's sort of the Pope of great expectations that are never fulfilled on either side. And that doesn't mean, though, that he didn't do anything. Right. I think that even though he doesn't change the rules that many liberals were hoping for, and that he doesn't break the place, which is what many conservatives were worried about, I think that he does something that's really important, which is he sort of changes the priorities or the idea of what the Catholic Church is around for. Right. And that, I think, was the thing that was most important to him. And his supporters would argue that he did a pretty good job of changing people's minds, or at least some people's minds, about what the Church is here for. And it's pretty simple. His idea of the Church was just. It's full of priests and nuns and all these people institution who are there for people, and to bring the faith closer to the people and everything else is sort of a distraction. And that Seems really basic. But he would argue, I think, that, yeah, it's basic, and that's not what we were doing for decades. We were so obsessed with how we dressed and which way we faced when we said this prayer and what prayer we said, that we forgot what we were here for. And so I think what his entire pontificate was really about was reminding people why the Church exists, in his view. And it's a big ship, the Catholic church. Right. It's 1.3 billion people. It's been around for 2000 years. It's not easy to make big changes. There's an enormous bureaucracy that tries to stop change. But I think that he moved things enough that it's very hard to say he did nothing. He also opened up debates, which is something that now people forget. There were things you could not talk about and more. Do you remember when I said that within the church, personnel, as policy? Well, Francis named a lot of new cardinals and a lot of new bishops. And those people tend to see the church the way that Francis does, which means that going forward in the future, the people picking the next pope within, you know, a couple of weeks are going to be people who see the church more like Francis does, who probably want more of a pastor than someone who's going to be defending, you know, doctrine and rules.

[Michael Balbaro]

I mean, what you're describing is a kind of great seeding of future change by a pope who didn't necessarily make the big changes himself.

[Pope Francis]

Yeah. I think what Francis ultimately decided is that he was not gonna be the guy who was going to make the change, but he was going to create the circumstances, the ability to discuss things, but also the personnel, the actual people who might be more willing even than he was to make the actual changes. So, I mean, when people look back now at Francis, was it a revolution that he led? Maybe not. But I think it's very hard to argue that he didn't make a big change within the Catholic Church.

[Michael Balbaro]

Jason, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

[Pope Francis]

Thanks for having me. Michael.

[Jason Horowitz]

On Monday night, my colleague Emma Bobola spoke to some of those who had come to St Peter's Square in order to honor and mourn Pope Francis.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

How do you feel today that he's gone?

[Pope Francis]

I think the world has lost a very important person, but it was coming. Well, he was a breath of fresh air. Oh, he is a very good guy.

[Jason Horowitz]

He's very.

[Pope Francis]

He has a good heart, very giving and generous. A guide for me, for my wife and my son might not have always agreed or. Or anything like that, but we. No matter what the differences were, he was our dad. And that's. And it's a difficult thing to lose. He was going in.

[Unknown]

In such a positive direction.

[Michael Balbaro]

Yes.

[Pope Francis]

He has turned the church in a new way, taken a new corner. So I think it will not. It will not be derailed, but there are forces who would like it to be. I hope the next pope will be as strong as he was.

[Unknown]

Can you describe a little bit like your emotions?

[Jason Horowitz]

The Vatican says that unlike many of his predecessors, Pope Francis has chosen not to be buried inside the Vatican. Instead, he will be laid to rest at a church in Rome in an undecorated tomb bearing a single word, franciscus, Latin for Francis. Shortly thereafter, cardinals from across the world will meet inside the Sistine Chapel and vote by secret ballot on who should succeed Francis as the next pope. We'll be right back.

[Michael Balbaro]

This podcast is supported by Sierra.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

We've all been there. Your flight was canceled and everyone is trying to rebook at the same time.

[Unknown]

Please hold. Estimated wait time is 25 minutes.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Sierra is different. We build AI agents that talk directly to your customers so you can say goodbye to hold times and chatbots. Always friendly, always helpful, always ready. Visit Sierra AI to learn more. That's Sierra AI.

[Tracy Mumford]

Hey, I'm Tracy Mumford. You can join me every weekday morning for the headlines from the New York Times.

[Michael Balbaro]

Now, we're about to see a spectacle.

[Unknown]

That we've never seen.

[Tracy Mumford]

It's a show that catches you up on the biggest news stories of the day.

[Pope Francis]

I'm here in Red Square.

[Tracy Mumford]

We'll put you on the ground where news is unfolding.

[Jason Horowitz]

I just got back from a trip.

[Michael Balbaro]

Out to the front line and every.

[Tracy Mumford]

Soldier and bring you the analysis and expertise you can only get from the Times newsroom.

[Michael Balbaro]

I just can't emphasize enough how extraordinary this moment is.

[Tracy Mumford]

Look for the headlines wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jason Horowitz]

Here's what else you need to know today. On Monday, Harvard sued the Trump administration, arguing that the White House had violated its First Amendment rights by seeking to control what the university can teach and who it can hire. The White House froze billions of dollars in funds to Harvard after the university refused to comply with an array of demands, including audits of professors for plagiarism and the appointment of an outsider to ensure that Harvard's academic programs teach diverse viewpoints. Those demands, Harvard said, now threaten its academic independence. And the stock market nosedived again on Monday because of Trump's tariffs and his ongoing attacks on the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell. The Dow Jones Industrial average fell a staggering 972 points and is now on pace for its worst April since 1932. The sell off intensified as Trump called Powell a, quote, major loser, demanded that Powell cut interest rates, and suggested that an economic slowdown would be Powell's fault and not his. Today's episode was produced by Rochelle Banja, Carlos Prieto, Shannon Lynn and Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Maria Byrne. Fact Checked by Susan Lee contains original music by Elisheba Itube, Dan Powell and Diane Waugh and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Giving Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly special thanks to Emma Bobola. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balbaro. See you tomorrow.

[Michael Balbaro]

This podcast is supported by ciara.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

We've all been there. Your flight was canceled and everyone is trying to rebook at the same time.

[Unknown]

Please hold. Estimated wait time is 25 minutes.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

Sierra is different. We build AI agents that talk directly to your customers so you can say goodbye to hold times and chatbots. Always friendly, always helpful, always ready. Visit Sierra AI to learn more. That's Sierra AI.