How Trump Lost Control of the Epstein Narrative

Summary

The Epstein Story Revealed Cracks in the MAGA Base

Podcast: The Daily
Host: Natalie Kitroeff
Release Date: July 21, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Daily, host Natalie Kitroeff delves into the enduring impact of the Jeffrey Epstein case on Donald Trump's MAGA (Make America Great Again) base. Over the past two weeks, President Trump has struggled to quell discussions surrounding Epstein, revealing underlying vulnerabilities within his supporter base. Through insightful interviews with investigative editor David Enrich and MAGA movement insider Sean McCreesh, the episode explores why Epstein’s story continues to resonate and what it signifies for Trump's political influence.

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Jeffrey Epstein's Case and Its Mysteries

David Enrich begins by outlining the enduring fascination with Jeffrey Epstein, emphasizing the myriad unanswered questions surrounding his wealth and connections with powerful individuals.

• Epstein’s Background: Epstein was known as a financier living in New York, Florida, and his private island. Notably, he associated with prominent figures, including Donald Trump, with whom he shared interests and socialized in the '90s and early 2000s.

• Legal Troubles: In 2008, Epstein pleaded guilty to sex crimes in Florida, receiving a lenient sentence that included minimal jail time and a work-release program. This plea deal raised significant suspicions due to the gravity of the allegations versus the minimal punishment.

• Unanswered Questions: Enrich highlights the mystery of Epstein's substantial wealth, noting, "[...] how he got so much money [...] this was not a guy who by any accounts was a real financial genius" (07:00). The lack of clarity around his financial dealings fuels ongoing conspiracy theories and suspicions about his connections with the elite.

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Epstein's Death and Conspiracy Theories

The conversation shifts to Epstein's mysterious death, which has been a focal point for numerous conspiracy theories.

• Circumstances of Death: Epstein was arrested in July 2019 on federal sex trafficking charges and died by suicide in his Manhattan jail cell about a month later. Enrich explains the flaws in the jail's protocol, noting, "[...] he was supposed to have another inmate in his cell with him at all times" (10:41).

• Lack of Evidence: The absence of comprehensive video footage and procedural lapses have intensified doubts about the official suicide narrative. Enrich states, "[...] jails can be very chaotic places [...] standard, typical mismanagement" (11:40), acknowledging that negligence might explain Epstein's death, though uncertainty remains.

• Legal Battles for Transparency: The New York Times' persistent efforts to obtain Epstein's records revealed significant details about his death but left many questions unanswered, ensuring that conspiracy theories continue to thrive.

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Impact on Donald Trump and the MAGA Base

Post-ad break, Sean McCreesh, an expert on the MAGA movement, discusses the reverberations of the Epstein case within Trump's supporter base.

• Crisis in Trump’s Support: Trump's attempts to silence discussions around Epstein have backfired, igniting anger and suspicion among his followers. McCreesh describes this as "one of the most fascinating things we have seen in the 10 years that Donald Trump has been on the scene" (15:18).

• Department of Justice’s Role: The DOJ’s memo closing the Epstein investigation without full disclosure sparked outrage among MAGA influencers, as evidenced by their public demands for transparency (16:03).

• Trump’s Response: When the Wall Street Journal published a dubious story linking Trump to Epstein, his dismissive and combative reaction further alienated his base. Trump characterized the article as "false" and "fake news," intensifying distrust (24:31).

• Shift in Base’s Loyalty: Traditionally unwavering, some MAGA supporters are beginning to question Trump's stance on Epstein. McCreesh notes, "[...] it just does not comport with the shared reality that you've lived in with other Trump supporters" (18:50), indicating a potential fracture within the movement.

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White House's Handling of the Epstein Investigation

The episode scrutinizes the White House's approach to managing the Epstein narrative, revealing missteps that have eroded trust among Trump's base.

• Mismanagement of Information: The refusal to release Epstein's complete files and the subsequent handling of his death have led to widespread skepticism. Enrich points out, "[...] the government has been fighting tooth and nail to keep information about Epstein's secrets" (12:56).

• Confrontation with Media: Trump's aggressive stance against media outlets reporting unfavorable stories about him, such as suing Rupert Murdoch over the Wall Street Journal's allegations, demonstrates a defensive posture that resonates poorly with some supporters (24:29).

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Current Status and Future Implications

Looking forward, the episode explores the uncertain trajectory of Trump's influence amidst the Epstein controversy.

• Potential for Declining Support: While Trump has historically been adept at rallying his base, the Epstein saga presents unprecedented challenges. McCreesh suggests that the ongoing lack of clear answers may lead to sustained frustration and possible disillusionment among supporters (26:03).

• Legal and Political Ramifications: The lawsuit against Murdoch and the White House’s attempts to divert attention could have long-term effects on Trump's relationship with his base and his political strategies moving forward (25:09).

• Ongoing Investigations: The unresolved questions surrounding Epstein’s finances and connections suggest that the Epstein story will continue to influence political dynamics, potentially reshaping perceptions of Trump's leadership and the MAGA movement (27:57).

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Conclusion

The Daily episode highlights how the Jeffrey Epstein case has exposed significant vulnerabilities within Donald Trump's MAGA base. Through in-depth interviews and analysis, the podcast illustrates the complex interplay between high-profile scandals and political loyalty, suggesting that the Epstein story may have lasting implications for Trump's political future and the cohesion of his supporter base.

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Notable Quotes

• David Enrich (07:00): “This was not a guy who by any accounts was a real financial genius or whiz or had risen to the top of Wall Street. This was someone who had a very kind of shallow, short track record.”

• David Enrich (10:41): “[...] you know, jails can be very chaotic places, violent places, places that are often mismanaged.”

• Sean McCreesh (15:18): “I have to say this is one of the most fascinating things we have seen in the 10 years that Donald Trump has been on the scene and forging this connection with his base.”

• Sean McCreesh (18:50): “[...] it just does not comport with the shared reality that you've lived in with other Trump supporters.”

• Sean McCreesh (25:17): “It's the exact opposite [...] Nothing unites MAGA like fake news.”

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Additional Insights

• Epstein’s Associates: The podcast touches upon individuals like Leon Black of Apollo, who had significant financial dealings with Epstein, raising questions about the extent of Epstein’s influence and the possible leverage he held over the wealthy elite.

• Public Perception: The Epstein case remains a touchstone for discussions about power, corruption, and accountability, making it a potent symbol within political discourse, especially among those distrustful of established institutions.

• Media’s Role: The New York Times’ investigative efforts underscore the critical role of journalism in uncovering truths and maintaining transparency, even in the face of institutional resistance.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, providing an engaging overview of the discussions surrounding the Epstein case and its impact on Donald Trump's MAGA base. It highlights key points, quotes, and insights, offering valuable context for listeners and those unfamiliar with the original podcast.

Transcript

[Josh Haner]

Hi, I'm Josh Haner and I'm a staff photographer at the New York Times covering climate change. For years, we've sort of imagined this picture of a polar bear floating on a piece of ice. Those have been the images associated with climate change. My challenge is to find stories that show you how climate change is affecting our world right now. If you want to support the kind of journalism that we're working on here on the climate and environment desk at the New York Times, please subscribe on our website or our app.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitrowev. This is the Daily for the past two weeks, President Trump has been trying and failing to get his base to stop talking about Jeffrey Epstein. Today, my colleagues David Enrich and Sean McCreesh explain why MAGA won't let go of this scale, how the President misread his own base, and what all this shows about the limits of Trump's power. It's Monday, July 21st. David, we're in the middle of a crisis that the White House has so far been unable to control, which is this growing anger over the administration's refusal to release the complete files in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. You're an investigative editor at the Times and you've been involved in some of the biggest investigations that the Times has done surrounding Epstein. So we've come to you to understand why won't this go away?

[David Enrich]

This won't go away because it involves a collection of some of the world's richest and most powerful people and institutions and a whole slew of unanswered questions. So to just step back for a sec, let's just start with the story that most of us know about Jeffrey Epstein. He was a self styled financier living in New York and in Florida and on a private island. He was associated with some really rich and famous people, most notably, for our purposes, probably Donald Trump, with whom he spent a lot of time in the 90s and early 2000s hanging out, flying on planes together. And Trump at times remarked on their shared interest in women. And the other really important thing about Epstein is that in 2008 he pleaded guilty to sex crimes down in Florida, spent a brief period in jail, and then in 2019, he was arrested on federal sex trafficking charges. And about a month after his arrest, he was found hanging in his jail cell in Manhattan. And since then, there has just been a never ending flood of conspiracy theories about what else remains out there about Jeffrey Epstein. And it is really easy to dismiss conspiracy theories as baseless and not warranting Further inquiry. And I think a lot of times that's true. And in this case, I don't think it's true. I think there are a tremendous number of unanswered questions that involve the finances and reputations of really powerful, wealthy people. And that is really the root of this. There are so many things that we do not know.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Okay, that's why we're here. We want to get into those unanswered questions, be our guide. Where should we start?

[David Enrich]

Well, I think the place to start is in Florida in the mid-2000s, when Jeffrey Epstein first attracts the notice of. Of state and federal authorities who begin investigating allegations that he sexually abused young women and girls. And this investigation went on for a while, and instead of charging him on that, they charged him on these two kind of watered down prostitution charges and agreed to a plea deal that would result in Epstein serving very little time in a minimum security jail with a very lenient work release program.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

And did this raise questions at the time? Because the obvious one is why were prosecutors using such a light touch with this guy?

[David Enrich]

It did not really raise very many questions at the time. Certainly the people in Epstein's orbit, who he was friends with and who were providing him with money and resources and prestige, looked the other way. And it really did not come back into the public view until journalists at the Miami Herald started digging into this and trying to figure out what exactly had happened. And they produced a series of stories in 2018. And what they learned was that local authorities, police, and prosecutors in Palm beach county had amassed a really large pile of very serious allegations about sex crimes that Epstein had repeatedly committed. And that those, as part of this federal plea deal that Epstein later struck, had essentially been swept under the rug. With the direct result being that not only did Epstein get a really light jail sentence, but also that the result of that was that tons of evidence never saw the light of day. And the public remained really in the dark, therefore, about the extent of Epstein's alleged wrongdoing. So I think that the story begins there because it remains a mystery today why exactly the federal government intervened in a way that that ended up basically protecting Epstein and keeping a lot of the allegations that authorities had been investigating, keeping them secret from victims and from the public at large.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Okay, so that's one of these unanswered questions. How is Epstein able to get this sweetheart plea deal? What are the other holes in this case?

[David Enrich]

I mean, to me, the biggest outstanding mystery surrounding Jeffrey Epstein is, is how he got so much money. Every time you read about Epstein and the media in a context other than his crimes was this is a guy who was living a life of absolute luxury. He had properties all over the place. He owned an island, he had a private jet. He was certainly very wealthy, and he certainly had gained the confidence of some very rich and powerful men. But he liked to style himself as a hedge fund manager or a financier, and that's just not true. This was not a guy who by any accounts was a real financial genius or whiz or had risen to the top of Wall Street. This was someone who had a very kind of shallow, short track record. So how did Jeffrey Epstein amass this enormous fortune? And there are a bunch of different conflicting, overlapping, unsatisfying answers.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

So even though some of us may remember or think of Epstein as this wealthy, as you said, financier, like, this guy is not actually, in reality, to the Wall street type, seen as, you know, an expert that you would entrust all your money to.

[David Enrich]

No, absolutely not. And my New York Times colleague Matt Goldstein has just done an enormous amount of digging on this topic. Probably the place to start is with a guy named Leon Black, who ran the giant private equity firm Apollo. And, and Black, one of the richest, most powerful people in the world, certainly on Wall street, has the ability to access anyone in the world that he wants to help get advice on how to deal with taxes, how to plan for his estate, things like that. Who does he turn to? Jeffrey Epstein. Black paid EPSTEIN Something like $170 million over the years for tax and estate planning services. And it's important to note that Black has denied any involvement in Epstein's crimes. But the ext. Of the financial relationship between these two has left a lot of people feeling suspicious. And Black is by no means alone here. There were a lot of people in Epstein's orbit, professionally, personally, and we do not know the full extent of what was going on there. There's been a tremendous amount of speculation and reporting into questions as to like, did he have something on them? Was there something else going on here? And we don't know is the bottom.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Line and just a quick gut check here, how normal is that? Do we generally know exactly how the mega rich are paying their financial consultants or what they're using them for?

[David Enrich]

No, unfortunately we don't. But this is still, I think this is a kind of abnormal situation, in part because very few rich and powerful people are publicly accused of and convicted of sex crimes and then die by hanging themselves in a prison cell. And so Jeffrey Epstein and his relationships and his money are getting a lot more scrutiny than a normal, wealthy Wall street person's life would be. And I think that if you had hordes of journalists spending years digging into the affairs of most people on Wall street, my hunch is that it would be a lot easier to ascertain the truth than it is proven. In the case of Epstein.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Okay, so you've mentioned his hanging. I want to talk about Epstein's death, actually. Like, this is the thing that we've heard the most about in terms of questions, in terms of people really not believing that this was a suicide. What's the story here?

[David Enrich]

Well, to recap what happened, Epstein was arrested in July 2019, and he was sent to the Metropolitan Correctional Facility in Manhattan.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

And.

[David Enrich]

And he. About a week or two after he had been arrested and housed there, he tore up some bedsheets, used it as a noose, and hung himself. And he was found unconscious but alive. And from that point forward, he was put on suicide watch. He was supposed to have another inmate in his cell with him at all times. There's supposed to be guards checking on him basically at all times. And instead, one night in August, he was left in a cell by himself, and the guards decided not to check on him for some reason. And he was found the following morning hanging from a bedsheet. And this time, he was dead. And this obviously set off even more conspiracy theories and led to even more questions about how on earth this possibly could have happened.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Right. The idea is this guy is the keeper of so many powerful people's secrets, and he ends up dead in a jail cell where they were supposed to be watching him.

[David Enrich]

That's exactly right. And what's more is that, you know, on top of all of that, there is no video footage that actually gives us insight into what was going on in that cell or even in the immediate area surrounding it.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Just to be clear, I understand there are gaps in the evidence, but what we do know does confirm that Epstein died by suicide.

[David Enrich]

Yes, that is the clear consensus among people who have studied the evidence and know what they're talking about. And by the way, the reason that we know a lot of those details is because the New York Times spent years and ultimately went to court to get these records from the Department of Corrections. We won the lawsuit. The records were revealed, and we therefore learned a lot about the circumstances of his death that night in the Manhattan jail. But there were still a ton of unanswered questions, obviously.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

We know, though, that jails can be very chaotic places, violent places, places that are Often mismanaged. And I mean, I sort of wonder how much of this you could just chalk up to that. I mean, just standard, typical mismanagement, failures at a jail.

[David Enrich]

Yeah, I mean, that's a very valid question to be asking. And there might not have been something nefarious that happened here. And I think that applies to a whole broad range of what we've been talking about here with Epstein and these unanswered questions about him. Because the government, dating back to when he was first, had this sweetheart deal down in Florida. And in the mid-2000s, the government has been fighting tooth and nail to keep information about Epstein's secret. And obviously Epstein and many of his associates have been doing the same. And so the reality is there might be innocent, logical explanations to a lot of this stuff. We just don't know. And it remains unclear to me when, if ever, we are going to get the materials and the evidence we need to be able to fully and satisfactorily answer those questions. And in the meantime, the conspiracy theories will continue to fester.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

David, thank you so much.

[David Enrich]

Thanks for having me.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

After the break, my colleague Sean McCreesh explains why these festering conspiracy theories have taken such a hold of maga. We'll be right back.

[Susan Burton]

This is Susan Burton, host of the podcast the Retrievals. Two years ago, I received an email from a listener who said the themes explored in the first season of the podcast, the dismissal of women's pain, pain a doctor didn't adequately treat, resonated with her. And she told her own story, one that was so shocking that I thought what happened to her must have been singular, an anomaly, a mistake. Then, within a day or two, I opened two more of these notes describing similar experiences. Soon I understood this was a subject that would come up again and again. Cutting someone's body open and then operating when they can feel it. That is not supposed to happen. That's something from history or from war. It can't be something experienced by a hundred thousand women a year, can it? From Serial Productions and the New York Times, it's the Retrievals season two, the C sections. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts, your.

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[Natalie Kitrowev]

Sean, we just spoke with our colleague David Enrich about why this Epstein story has been so resonant for so many years. And now we want to talk about the moment that we're in today as the suspicions around the Epstein case are crashing around Trump in what seems like a pretty unprecedented way. And we wanted to turn to you to talk about that because you've spent years getting inside the MAGA movement. Help us understand the reaction within the base to this moment.

[Sean McCreesh]

Yeah. I have to say this is one of the most fascinating things we have seen in the 10 years that Donald Trump has been on the scene and forging this connection with his base. I think he is having this breakdown with the people who are most loyal to him and we don't know where it's going to go. There are signs that Trump has started perhaps to turn the page. It's still too soon to say. And yet, no matter what, this has been a fascinating, rich case study in how Trump connects with his base, what some of his political vulnerabilities are, the playbook he runs to anytime he's in trouble, and the White House's misunderstanding and mishandling of a five alarm fire with their own base.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Okay, let's talk about the mishandling of the five alarm fire. Walk us through how that happened.

[Sean McCreesh]

This cycle really began when the Department of Justice put out this two page memo essentially closing the Epstein investigation, telling everybody, yeah, not much to see here. Time to move on.

[Unnamed MAGA Influencer]

And how many of you raise your hand, think this is a big deal, the Epstein thing? Would you raise your hand? So, I mean, every hand has gone up. And so, you know, people are saying, it's a big deal, Steve.

[Sean McCreesh]

Very soon you started seeing a chorus of angry voices and they were not the usual suspects. Here you saw people like Charlie Kirk.

[Unnamed MAGA Influencer]

We want answers at some point.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Yeah, answer the questions, Megyn Kelly. It's about transparency. One of the main reasons that we voted Trump in was because we wanted real answers on real stories and we didn't want to be BS'd anymore with a bunch.

[David Enrich]

The fact that the US government, the one that I voted for, refused.

[Sean McCreesh]

You saw Tucker Carlson to take my.

[David Enrich]

Question seriously and instead said, case closed, shut up, conspiracy theorist was too much for me.

[Sean McCreesh]

Suddenly they were all sort of singing the same song, and it was not the song that the White House was singing. And then Trump starts making it worse.

[David Enrich]

Posting online this morning. He writes, my past supporters have bought into this. He used the word bullshit, hook, line and sinker. He goes on to say, let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats work.

[Sean McCreesh]

He finally decides to weigh in. And when he does so, he does it in this dismissive, condescending, high handed way.

[David Enrich]

It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net.

[Sean McCreesh]

And anybody who cares about this, you know, is wasting their time.

[David Enrich]

Total disaster.

[Sean McCreesh]

The way Trump handled all this, comments like those just made everything worse. I feel really betrayed and I feel really, really angry.

[Unnamed MAGA Influencer]

The young men and the Gen Z audience that I represent, they are flaming mad right now about this stuff.

[Susan Burton]

We are, in fact, not stupid. I really think that nothing should commit us further to wanting to unpack the Epstein story than the amount of gaslighting that is currently taking place.

[Sean McCreesh]

These people who normally are just so in lockstep with everything and they can find ways to twist themselves always to deflect blame from Trump. This was kind of one of the first times where a lot of them looked past any sort of fall guy and said, no, no, no, he's being really weird about this. Why is he doing this? His answers are shocking me. And that felt different.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

What do you think that's about, Sean? Like, why is this the thing that's making them, for the first time, maybe ever, start to really question this guy that has seemed so invulnerable with this core group for so long.

[Sean McCreesh]

Trump's inexplicable behavior around this subject shatters an entire worldview that if you are a hardcore MAGA person and you've been marinating in these concepts and these storylines for a decade now, the way he's behaving around this conspiracy and this case and this subject, it just does not comport with the shared reality that you've lived in with other Trump supporters. And I think to understand that, you have to go way back to the beginning of Donald Trump as a political phenomenon. He springs to power at this time of just total distrust, cynicism, and even nihilism in the country following two failed wars, one of which was premised on false intelligence. A financial crisis in which all the rich people who perpetrated it paid no price and normal people got screwed over. And Trump comes along and he says, everything you think is happening behind the curtain is happening. Trust me, I know. I've seen it. I know how politicians are. The people that have sold this country down the river. They play by a different set of rules. They never get in trouble. I am a truth teller. I'm going to rip the Face off of this thing, and you can trust me. So come along for the ride. And every bad thing that happens to Trump following that point only reinforces the narrative. So every investigation against him, every scandal, every attempt by the Washington insider class to throttle him, it all fits into the worldview that the establishment is out to get him because he's telling these difficult truths about what's really happening. This is the mind frame inside the MAGA movement. And the Epstein case, which is murky and shadowy and sort of all encompassing and still there are major unanswered questions there, legitimate questions. But it just fits into these themes so well because it's about, you know, at its core, rich people getting away with horrible things. And that just slots so well into the worldview that he's seated.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Right. It's like you're saying this is actually the exact thing that Trump promised to reveal to the public to fight against. Like in an us versus them. The us was the people and the them was elites like Epstein. Right. And the people he surrounded himself with. And in this case, it sounds like Trump is making it seem like he's siding with the elites.

[Sean McCreesh]

Yeah, it does seem like that. And so there's a little bit of suspicion creeping in now where for the first time, if you are not poised to defend his every word and deed, and you actually stop and look at some of it, as some of his supporters are now doing for the first time ever, things start to fall apart. And it's a worldview that falls apart.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Is this just MAGA influencers, or do you sense that the frustration runs deeper and more broadly than that?

[Sean McCreesh]

That's a great question. It's something we think about all the time as Washington reporters. Right. Like, do these storylines that we're fixating on actually resonate? And I would say this one absolutely does. This is a real thing out there in the country. You know, I'm from a lower middle class town in Pennsylvania and I've got Trump voting friends who. One of them reached out to me the other day and was like, we are so disgusted with this Epstein thing. We don't understand why he's being like this. And I've got sources who are Mar A Lago members that are die hard Donald Trump supporters, rich people who I'm asking, what do you think of all this? And they're sort of just saying, yeah, it's really unfortunate. It's strange, like, we need more answers. And so it's everybody from the Mar A Lago club members to, you know, my welder buddies in Pennsylvania.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

It's kind of fascinating to me that you're saying a lot of this is like an own goal by Trump. You know, this comes from his own mistakes in addressing his base. That's something normally so good at, reading his base, telling them exactly what they want to hear. Why do you think he misread the situation this time?

[Sean McCreesh]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's what makes this so fascinating. He's so in touch with that base. I traveled around the country. I've been to a million Trump rallies. He listens to the roar of the crowd and goes where it tells him to go. He knows what they want. And so it's this interesting moment where Trump is at the zenith of his political power. But I think there are many people in the movement who are starting to wonder, can he still hear them? Is he still attuned to the roar that put him in there in the first place, if he can't hear them and he doesn't know what they want? It brings us to this really interesting moment where, and this is sort of the oldest tale to tell about Washington, which is that if you don't watch out, you end up becoming the thing you started off scorning. And what does it mean to a Trump voter if Trump is now the deep state? And that is the question that this entire thing has raised.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

You said at the start of our conversation that it seems like Trump may be finally turning the page on some of this. What makes you think that?

[Sean McCreesh]

Well, it's unclear yet where that will go, but something interesting happened a couple days ago, which is that the Wall Street Journal published this big story that described a birthday scrapbook that had been given to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003. And the Journal alleged that Trump had written a note in the scrapbook and he'd done a drawing of a naked woman in there. And Trump's note to Epstein, according to the Journal, ended by saying, happy Birthday, and may every day be another wonderful secret.

[Unnamed MAGA Influencer]

Last night after that story was published.

[Sean McCreesh]

Trump slammed the piece in a True Social post, calling it false. Trump denied the story, and the White House tried to kill it. He wrote In Truth Social that he filed a powerhouse lawsuit against anyone involved in publishing the false, malicious, defamatory, fake news article in the useless rag that.

[David Enrich]

Is the Wall Street Journal.

[Sean McCreesh]

Nonetheless, when the story came out, I think for a large portion of Trump's base, this sort of muscle memory kicked in, which is that the base runs to defend him.

[Unnamed MAGA Influencer]

As soon as I read the story, I said, this is the dumbest, obviously fakest thing I Don't believe it.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

This is a nothing burger. It's an absolute nothing burger. I laughed when I saw it.

[Sean McCreesh]

The Murdochs concocted something last night and thought it'd be a kill shot on President Trump. And lo and behold, it's the exact opposite.

[Unnamed MAGA Influencer]

Nothing unites maga like fake news.

[Sean McCreesh]

And so here, Trump finally starts to find his wartime footing. Finally. He had kind of a weapon, and he knew how to use it, and the weapon was what he claimed was this fake story. And look at me. And look, they're coming after me, and it's a hoax, and you can't trust them. And I'm gonna sue Rupert Murdoch. And so now he's on the attack. And he's always good when he's on the attack. Right.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Will this work, though? I mean, these are people who have really seemed to have a very real and frankly, understandable desire for more clarity and transparency around the Epstein investigation. Do you think they're just gonna suddenly abandon that in favor of lining up behind Trump?

[Sean McCreesh]

It seems hard to believe. I think one of the things that they were disgusted about was Trump's tone when talking about this sort of just this boring story. And only idiots would care about this. This is what was really incensing them as well. And that goes to the reality that they care really deeply about this because it's a really awful story that should be cared about. And so I just don't see how you can drop that. I mean, it's. You know, we keep using words like conspiracies, and we are talking about some conspiracy theories here, but they are connected to very real crimes. And there's a reason why this case gripped the public imagination. It was much bigger than politics. I mean, everybody knows about this and.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Follows this, and yet I feel that the theme of Trump's political moment is that he kind of always comes back. I mean, it's also hard to see this being the thing that leads to, like, a break long term.

[Sean McCreesh]

It's true. He always finds a way to keep his people on side. He's also a master at creating his own reality to suit his needs. And it's always been true of Trump that he's most wily when he's in a foxhole, and he's certainly in one now. And yet it's also true that this is not quite over. There are some big, looming questions that we don't know the answers to yet. Will the Trump administration ever really be able to give enough information to satisfy its base about the Epstein saga? Is it ever going to be enough. And what's going to happen now with this lawsuit that he's waging against Rupert Murdoch? And will the White House be able to turn the page and get the message onto the next story they want it to be? It could take some time before we learn how it's all going to play out.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

Sean, thanks so much.

[Sean McCreesh]

Thanks for having me.

[Natalie Kitrowev]

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. A former Jeffrey Epstein employee told Times reporters that she spoke with the FBI in 1996 and again in 2006 about a troubling encounter with Trump in Epstein's office, where she said Trump hovered over her and stared at her bare legs, making her feel scared. She was in her mid-20s at the time. The White House contested the account, saying Trump was never in Epstein's office. The story shows how the investigative files on Epstein could contain embarrassing material for Trump, even if it's largely unrelated to Epstein's crimes and was never fully investigated or corroborated and Israeli forces killed more than 60 Palestinians on Sunday in northern Gaza after crowds gathered near a crossing from Israel to try to seize aid from United nations trucks, according to the Gaza Health Ministry and health workers. The Israeli military disputed the number of fatalities but didn't offer an alternative number, and said soldiers had opened fire to remove an immediate threat, but didn't specify what that threat was. It was the latest violence connected to a new food distribution system that was introduced by Israel nearly two months ago. The UN said last week that more than 670 Palestinians had been killed in attacks near sites built under the new system. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko and Caitlin o', Keefe with help from Mary Wilson. It was edited by Devin Taylor, contains original music by Dan Powell, Rowan Nimisto, Diane Wong and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. That's it for the Daily. I'm Natalie Kitroweff. See you tomorrow.

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