How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission

Summary

The Daily: How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Release Date: March 18, 2025
Host: Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise

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Introduction

In the March 18, 2025 episode of The Daily titled "How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission," hosts Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise delve into former President Donald Trump's escalating campaign of retribution against prominent law firms, particularly focusing on Perkins Coie. The discussion highlights how Trump's actions are not only targeting specific firms but also posing a broader threat to the American legal system and the foundational principles of legal defense.

Background on Perkins Coie

Michael Barbaro sets the stage by recounting Perkins Coie’s significant role in political campaigns:

"The hands of the president in 2016. Hillary Clinton's campaign hired Perkins Coie to be its chief outside law firm." [03:28]

Perkins Coie, known for its robust Democratic affiliations, managed critical legal undertakings, including the controversial dossier on Donald Trump's potential ties to Russia. This association positioned the firm as a primary target for Trump's subsequent campaigns of retribution.

Trump's Initial Attack on Perkins Coie

Mike Schmidt elaborates on Trump's strategy to undermine Perkins Coie:

"With the stroke of his pen, he was able to essentially cripple the firm's ability to represent its clients and create an existential threat for it that could put it out of business." [02:40]

Trump's disapproval stemmed from the firm's involvement in the dossier, which became a cornerstone of his narrative against alleged deep-state conspiracies. By targeting Perkins Coie, Trump aimed to delegitimize their role and intimidate them into silence.

Legal Battles and Acquittal

Attempting to leverage the Justice Department, Trump sought to indict Perkins Coie partner Mark Elias for allegedly misleading the FBI. Mike Schmidt reports:

"The Perkins Coie partner being indicted for misleading the FBI during the 2016 campaign about Trump's potential ties to Russia. And that partner goes on trial but is acquitted." [07:09]

Despite Trump's efforts, the legal attempts to bring down Perkins Coie faltered, culminating in Elias's acquittal. This outcome, however, did not deter Trump's agenda against the firm.

Continued Retaliation and Executive Orders

Following his 2020 election loss and unsuccessful attempts to overturn the results, Trump intensified his attacks. Mike Schmidt details a pivotal moment:

"Trump goes after Perkins Coie in a way that I did not think he was capable of." [12:44]

Trump signed an executive order aiming to end "lawfare" and the "weaponization of government," specifically targeting Perkins Coie by barring the firm and its lawyers from federal buildings and interactions with the government:

"This is an absolute honor to sign." [14:10]
"Simply, your tie to Perkins Coie means that your work for the government is majorly in question." [14:54]

The executive order effectively blacklisted Perkins Coie, leading to an immediate loss of clients and creating an existential threat to the firm.

Impact on Legal Profession and American Justice System

The repercussions of Trump's actions extend beyond Perkins Coie, instilling fear across the legal community. Mike Schmidt emphasizes:

"You have a president who is using power in ways that we have never seen before." [21:34]

This climate of intimidation threatens the core of the American legal system, where every individual is entitled to vigorous legal defense. The fear that representing clients against the government could lead to similar reprisals stifles the willingness of other law firms to take on significant cases against Trump’s administration.

Broader Implications for Washington and Checks and Balances

The erosion of big law firms' capacity to challenge the administration undermines essential checks and balances:

"Trump is essentially taking one of his biggest adversaries off the playing field." [22:12]
"He has told the entire community of big law firms... what awaits them if they cross him or if they upset him." [18:52]

With major law firms intimidated into silence, the judicial system loses a vital mechanism for holding the executive branch accountable, concentrating unprecedented power in the hands of the president.

Expansion to Target Paul Weiss

In a continuation of his strategy, Trump expanded his campaign to include another major law firm, Paul Weiss. This new executive order mirrors the actions taken against Perkins Coie, targeting lawyers who have been adversarial in high-profile criminal cases against Trump:

"President Trump expanded his attack on the legal industry by issuing a new executive order that bars another major law firm, Paul Weiss, from interacting with the federal government." [23:27]

Similar to Perkins Coie, Paul Weiss is expected to challenge the executive order in court, highlighting a pattern of targeting firms that oppose Trump’s legal battles.

Conclusion

Donald Trump's campaign against Perkins Coie and Paul Weiss marks a significant departure from traditional political retribution, leveraging executive power to intimidate and undermine the legal community. This strategy not only threatens individual firms but also poses a broader risk to the integrity of the American legal system by eroding the capacity for legal defense and challenging governmental overreach.

Notable Quotes:

• Mike Schmidt on Trump’s retribution:

  "He has actually been more creative and audacious and faster, frankly, than I ever thought he'd be at retribution." [02:09]

• Mike Schmidt on the impact on the justice system:

  "An attack on the American justice system. Because in our country... everyone is entitled to a vigorous defense." [19:35]

• Michael Barbaro on the chilling effect:

  "Essentially intimidating one of the last, maybe the last check and balance against his power." [22:18]

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This comprehensive exploration underscores the formidable influence wielded by Trump over the legal sector and raises critical concerns about the future of legal defense and the balance of power within the United States government.

Transcript

[Michael Barbaro]

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[Mike Schmidt]

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[Michael Barbaro]

Times, I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the Daily. After engaging in a campaign of retribution against his enemies within the federal government, President Trump is now turning to those outside of it. Today, my colleague Mike Schmidt on what that retribution has looked like for a single law firm and the impact that it's had on the entire legal profession. It's Tuesday, March 18th. Mike, welcome back to the studio. Thank you for being here.

[Mike Schmidt]

It's good to be back.

[Michael Barbaro]

I want to give a little bit of context for this conversation. Before Trump was elected, the Daily ran a series of episodes about what a second Trump term might look like on a range of fronts. And you guided us through how Trump might use the powers of the federal government to turn his threats of retribution into action. And your big finding was that we didn't have to look far to try to understand what retribution might look like in practice because Trump had already done it in his first term more than we had actually realized. And you documented that and you said that it would only escalate if he were given a second term. And I think it's fair to say so far that you were right.

[Mike Schmidt]

Michael, telling me I'm right.

[Michael Barbaro]

You were right.

[Mike Schmidt]

Frame it. Yeah, look, I was concentrated on how he was going to use the criminal powers of the Justice Department to go after his enemies. But he has actually been more creative and audacious and faster, frankly, than I ever thought he'd be at retribution. Correct.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what in your mind is the best example of this unexpected, inventive retribution?

[Mike Schmidt]

The way that he has targeted in the past week or so a law firm called Perkins Coie. With the stroke of his pen, he was able to essentially cripple the firm's ability to represent its clients and create an existential threat for it that could put it out of business. But in doing that, Trump has done something even bigger and greater. He has fundamentally undermined the American legal system.

[Michael Barbaro]

A very bold statement. So let's tell the story of what happened to this law firm from the beginning. Tell us about Perkins Coie and how it arrives at this existential crisis at.

[Mike Schmidt]

The hands of the president in 2016. Hillary Clinton's campaign hired Perkins Coie to be its chief outside law firm. In many ways, this made sense because Perkins Coie had one of the biggest, most robust practices that focused on representing Democrats.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And we should say in Washington, that's kind of how things work. There are law firms known for doing work for Republicans. There are law firms known for doing work for Democrats.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. So what happens is during the campaign, the. The law firm took over, paying for the work of a former British spy who was compiling a dossier on Trump's potential ties to Russia.

[Michael Barbaro]

And by dossier, of course, you mean the dossier on Donald Trump. That becomes a big factor in how we all think in that moment about Trump and Russia.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. The salacious compilation of unverified intelligence reports that laid out potential ties between Trump, his associates, and Russia. And the chief boogeyman in his eyes, was a lawyer for Perkins Coey, who was the top lawyer on the Clinton campaign, a guy named Mark Elias, who had not only established himself as the top lawyer for Democrats, but had played a role in. In helping to fund the dossier and represent the campaign.

[Michael Barbaro]

Hmm.

[Mike Schmidt]

Controversial move by buzzfeed last night, publishing a dossier sourced to a person who claims to be a former member of British intelligence. So as Trump is coming into office, BuzzFeed, of course, published the entire contents of that dossier that had. The dossier is everywhere. This is for that infamous dossier.

[Michael Barbaro]

It's all over the news media.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. It is widely thought to be pretty scurrilous. Some pre salacious allegations. This is lurid stuff. This is all unsubstantiated. And let's be clear for a second just about the dossier. Many of the allegations in it eventually are debunked. But for Trump, Perkins Coey's involvement in the dossier was just unforgivable because as he comes into office, he quickly faces this sprawling Justice Department special counsel investigation into potential ties between his campaign and Russia.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Mike Schmidt]

And the dossier had nothing to do with why that investigation was opened. But Trump is able to conflate all of this and blames the dossier and by extension, Mark Elias and Perkins Coie for the investigation.

[Michael Barbaro]

Got it. Dossier.

[Mike Schmidt]

Did you hear about the dossier? It was paid for by crooked Hillary Clinton. He sees this, or at least he makes it out to be. I call it the Russian hoax. All part of a larger deep state conspiracy. They lost the election and they didn't.

[Michael Barbaro]

Know what happened, and they needed an excuse.

[Mike Schmidt]

So they said Russia, he says. Big law. Democrats and the media have come together to unfairly tarnish him and delegitimize his election victory and, by extension, his presidency. These are sick people.

[Michael Barbaro]

And there has.

[Mike Schmidt]

To be accountability, because it's all lies.

[Michael Barbaro]

And they know it's lies. They don't.

[Mike Schmidt]

Eventually, Trump does get the Justice Department to investigate whether there was this conspiracy. And a range of different things are looked at, including Perkins Coie's role. And ultimately, that investigation results in a Perkins Coie partner being indicted for misleading the FBI during the 2016 campaign about Trump's potential ties to Russia. And that partner goes on trial but is acquitted.

[Michael Barbaro]

Hmm.

[Mike Schmidt]

So the efforts to use the criminal powers of the Justice Department to go after Perkins Coie ultimately fall flat.

[Michael Barbaro]

So Trump is able to put this firm under some pretty intense legal scrutiny, but it doesn't deliver for him the victory over Perkins Coie that he clearly craves.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. But his tangling and fighting with Perkins Coie is not over. He loses the 2020 election, and he's going around the country trying to overturn the results.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Mike Schmidt]

And at many of the important junctures where Trump's lawyers go into court to try to have the results thrown out, those lawyers find themselves on the other side of Mark Elias.

[Michael Barbaro]

Oh, wow.

[Mike Schmidt]

And Mark Elias and his practice at Perkins Coie just kick Trump's butt. They win pretty much all of these court battles. They are celebrated by Democrats as a Bulwark against Trump. Mr. Mark Elias joins us now live. Mr. Elias, thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thanks for having me. By this point, Elias is all over the place as one of Trump's loudest critics. The fact is, Republicans didn't find really any fraud because there wasn't much of any fraud. He essentially becomes synonymous with the Democratic resistance to Trump. The lawsuits that were filed, one after another after another were just, you know, surreal. They were not grounded in fact, but they also weren't grounded in law. And so for Trump, there's no bigger foe or offender in terms of lawyers or law firms than Mark Elias and Perkins Coie.

[Michael Barbaro]

And yet what can he do about it?

[Mike Schmidt]

Well, when he's out of office, Trump tries to sue Perkins Coie, and his lawyers try to make the argument again that Perkins Cohey was somehow responsible for the investigation into the ties between his campaign and Russia, which, as you've said, it was not. Correct. And the lawsuit falls apart and is thrown out.

[Michael Barbaro]

So, once again, Trump cannot knock this firm down, not for want of trying. He just keeps failing.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. And look, for Perkins Coie, this certainly was not a fun endeavor to be the target of Trump's Ireland. But they appear to breathe a sigh of relief. And then it gets even sort of better for them. Mark Elias actually leaves Perkins Coieh. So if you're Perkins Coie, you have survived the scrutiny and you've gotten rid of the lawyer who Trump hates the most. But then Trump wins reelection and it doesn't matter to Trump that Mark Elias is gone. He still wants revenge. And just weeks into office, Trump goes after Perkins Cooley in a way that I did not think he was capable of. Foreign.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'Ll be right back.

[Mike Schmidt]

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[Michael Barbaro]

So Mike, once Trump returns to the White House, how does he go after Perkins Coie in a way that, as you just said, seemed unfathomable to you until he did it.

[Mike Schmidt]

I told you that Perkins Coie did a lot of work for Democrats, but a major portion of the firm's day to day work is representing companies and contractors that have business or problems with the federal government. That's kind of their bread and butter way of making money.

[Michael Barbaro]

Got it.

[Mike Schmidt]

And to do that, and I know this may sound a little basic, you have to interact with the federal government. You have to talk to the federal government. You have to go into the federal government to represent your client.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Mike Schmidt]

Will, could you come over? We're gonna. Yes, sir. Send some executive orders. Keeping that in mind, Trump, less than two weeks ago in the Oval Office, sir, your administration has made it a.

[Michael Barbaro]

Priority both to end lawfare and the.

[Mike Schmidt]

Weaponization of government, and also to hold those who have engaged in lawfare accountable. Signs an executive order, One of the law Firms that has been involved in that is called Perkins Coy. That's also a law that essentially bars Perkins Coie, specifically the firm itself named, and its lawyers from entering federal buildings and essentially interacting or dealing with the federal government.

[Michael Barbaro]

This is an absolute honor to sign.

[Mike Schmidt]

What they've done is just terrible, making it impossible to do the most basic function of their job, which is represent.

[Michael Barbaro]

Their clients before the federal government.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct.

[Michael Barbaro]

And it should never be allowed to happen again.

[Mike Schmidt]

And on top of that, the executive order basically says that if you're a contractor and you have business with the government and you are represented or tied to Perkins Coie, you could lose your work with the government as well.

[Michael Barbaro]

Wow. Basically, Trump in this executive order is putting Perkins Coie on a blacklist.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. Simply, your tie to Perkins Coie means that your work for the government is majorly in question. So what happens is, is that almost immediately, the firm starts to hemorrhage clients, clients that they've had for decades. They start losing clients every single day. In the aftermath of Trump signing this, and this is an existential threat for this law firm. So Perkins Coie itself has to go out and find a law firm so it can now fight this in court.

[Michael Barbaro]

Can you just explain that? Because I think most people listening will assume that a law firm full of lawyers can fight its own fight.

[Mike Schmidt]

Sure, Perkins Coie could have gone to court and fought this themselves, but because it was existential, they needed to walk in the door with the best representation they could get, because if they fail to stop this, the firm will be toast.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Mike Schmidt]

But what happens is, in an example of how powerful this action from Trump was, not every law firm is jumping up to represent Perkins Coie, because if they take on Perkins Coie, they could be the target of the next Trump executive order, crippling them.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Mike Schmidt]

But then something sort of remarkable happens. In Washington is a law firm called Williams and Connolly. They are known as the toughest, nastiest, fiercest litigators in Washington. They almost take pride in fighting the government. And amid all these questions about whether anyone is going to step up and come to the defense of Perkins Coie, Williams and Connolly comes off the bench and says, we'll do it.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll take the risk.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. So as quickly as they can, Williams and Connally file suit against the Trump administration, asking a federal judge to jump in and stop the executive order. And there's a hearing before a judge in which Williams and Connolly faces off against the Justice Department. A Williamson Connolly lawyer lays out how what Trump has done is Unconstitutional, unfair, and will destroy Perkins Coie. The Justice Department argues that the president of the United States has great leeway to do whatever he wants in this area and sees Perkins Coie as a potential national security threat.

[Michael Barbaro]

Huh. How can it justify that claim?

[Mike Schmidt]

That this firm, because of its role in the 2016 campaign and creating this unfair cloud around Trump's ties to Russia, is a threat to the country?

[Michael Barbaro]

That this law firm is dangerous.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. And cannot be trusted to do business with the federal government.

[Michael Barbaro]

And how does the judge roll?

[Mike Schmidt]

She says it sends a chill down her spine. It is chilling to the legal profession. And she issues a temporary restraining order, essentially barring major portions of the executive order from being enforced.

[Michael Barbaro]

Basically, she hands Perkins Coie a victory against President Trump.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. In the judicial sense. But the damage has probably already been done to Perkins Coie. If you're one of Perkins Coie's clients, you know that this firm has a target on its back. Even if the Supreme Court someday says, no, Donald Trump, you did not have the power to do that to Perkins Coie, will it still have its clients? Will the clients still have hung around for this?

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. By the time the courts sort this all out, Perkins Coie may effectively be gone. And that's kind of the point for Trump. And what is so ultimately powerful about what he has done here? Yes, he's achieved an extraordinary level of retribution against this one firm. But by making an example out of Perkins Coie, he's done much more than that because he has told the entire community of big law firms in the country that what happened to Perkins Coie is exactly what awaits them if they cross him or if they upset him. And what awaits them is if they take that risk is destruction.

[Mike Schmidt]

And that is an attack on the American justice system. Because in our country, the way that the legal system has taken hold over the past two and a half centuries is the idea that everyone is entitled to a vigorous defense, to a lawyer who is going to do everything in their power within the law and ethical guidelines to defend them. So what happens when, if you're a lawyer, you're afraid to represent different parties that are potentially on the other side of the government that the government is going after? And what does that mean for those people who are potential targets of the.

[Michael Barbaro]

Government, whether they work at USAID and they've been fired, whether they are an inspector general who was just let go without Congress's approval, theoretically in violation of the Constitution, whether you're a billion dollar grant being held up by this president, even though it's been approved by Congress. All those people, all those entities in theory, are out there looking for lawyers to sue the Trump administration, or if.

[Mike Schmidt]

You'Re one of the people that we've talked about on the show, who Trump would like to have criminally prosecuted, if you're Liz Cheney or James Comey or Adam Schiff, what does that mean to them when the government comes for them and they need to find lawyers? And beyond all that, the reason I think this really matters is because of the current makeup of Washington. You have a president who is using power in ways that we have never seen before. You have Republicans on Capitol Hill who have no interest in standing up to him. Democrats seem to have no ability to stop him.

[Michael Barbaro]

A Cabinet full of people who are appointed because they have no desire to stop him.

[Mike Schmidt]

So that leaves the courts. But for the courts to hold Trump accountable, to stop Trump, they need for people to bring lawsuits and matters before them. And the people best equipped to do that are the big law firms in Washington. But if those firms are afraid that if they enter that fight, they could lose all of their business, Trump is then essentially taking one of his biggest adversaries off the playing field, right?

[Michael Barbaro]

Essentially intimidating one of the last, maybe the last check and balance against his power.

[Mike Schmidt]

In this moment, there are other lawyers who can bring these matters and that are skilled, but the ones with the most horsepower are potentially being sidelined. I've been reporting on this for the past week and a half, and I've learned that the leaders of these law firms have gone back and forth with each other about what to do. Should they file a friend of the court brief, should they put out a joint statement. And despite all of those discussions, they are yet to take any collective action.

[Michael Barbaro]

Suggesting to some real degree that they are intimidated, that they are scared that what he's doing is working.

[Mike Schmidt]

Privately, they will all tell me how horrific they think this is, but publicly, they're saying very little.

[Michael Barbaro]

Oh, Mike, thank you very much.

[Mike Schmidt]

Thanks for having me.

[Michael Barbaro]

Over the past few days, President Trump expanded his attack on the legal industry by issuing a new executive order that bars another major law firm, Paul Weiss, from interacting with the federal government. In the order, Trump singled out a former Paul Weiss lawyer who had worked on a criminal case against him, calling the lawyer, quote, unethical. Like Perkins Coie, Paul Weiss is expected to sue the administration to block the order. We'll be right back.

[Mike Schmidt]

I'm Judson Jones. I'm a reporter and meteorologist at the New York Times. For about two decades, I've been covering extreme weather, which is getting worse because of climate change, and it's becoming more important to get timely and accurate weather information. That's why we send these customized newsletters letting you know up to three days in advance about extreme weather that could impact you or a place you care about. At the Times, you can be confident that everything we publish is based off the most accurate scientific, embedded information available to us, because we want you to be able to make real time decisions about how to go about your life. This is the kind of work that makes makes subscribing to the New York Times so valuable and it's how you can support fact based independent journalism. So if you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com subscribe.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here'S what else you need to know today. Flight data reviewed by the New York Times suggests that the Trump administration is ignored a ruling from a federal judge to turn around planes carrying 200 migrants to El Salvador and return them to US soil. The flight data showed that none of the planes in question landed in El Salvador before the judge's order, and that one of them did not even leave American soil until after the judge's written order was posted online. During a court hearing on Monday, a lawyer for the Trump administration denied that the White House had violated the judge's ruling, stonewalled when the judge asked for detailed information about the flights and their timing, and said that the administration was not bound by the judge's oral directive to turn the planes around. In response, the judge called that claim a heck of a stretch. Today's episode was produced by Will Reed, Mary Wilson and Claire Tennisketter. It was edited by Rachel Quester, contains original music by Dan Powell and Pat McGusker and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Runberg and Ben Lanferk of Wonderlake. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balboro. See you tomorrow. This podcast is supported by Sierra.

[Mike Schmidt]

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