Inside The Fall Of Syria’s Brutal Dictator

Summary

Summary of "Inside The Fall Of Syria’s Brutal Dictator" – The Daily by The New York Times

Release Date: December 9, 2024
Hosts: Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise
Episode Title: Inside The Fall Of Syria’s Brutal Dictator

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Daily, Sabrina Tavernise and reporter Carlotta Gall delve into the dramatic and swift collapse of Syria’s long-standing dictatorship under Bashar al-Assad. The episode explores the events leading up to Assad’s ousting, the key players involved, and the profound geopolitical repercussions that followed. Through on-the-ground reporting and firsthand accounts, the hosts provide a comprehensive analysis of this pivotal moment in Middle Eastern history.

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The Sudden Collapse of Assad’s Regime

The episode begins with an account from Rud Dashi, a 26-year-old resident of Homs, Syria, capturing the jubilation and disbelief among Syrians as they celebrate the fall of Assad's regime. Dashi describes the streets filled with people singing and taking photos, expressing hope for the end of “50 years of oppression” (00:37).

Sabrina Tavernise introduces the context, noting that Syria had been under the iron grip of the Assad family for over half a century, characterized by "repression, devastation, and violence" (01:48). Carlotta Gall explains the rapid sequence of events that led to the regime’s downfall: armed opposition groups launched a decisive offensive in Aleppo province, swiftly capturing three cities within days (02:44 - 04:30). By Saturday night, Damascus was declared liberated as rebels took control of the capital, forcing President Assad to flee the country (04:26 - 04:40).

Gall summarizes the astonishing speed of the regime's collapse: “It’s been the most incredible turn of events in just 12 days” (02:44) and “[Assad’s] a very authoritarian Bashar al Assad has been in power now, but his father was in power before him. So they've ruled this country with an iron grip since the 1970s” (05:07).

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Historical Context: The Syrian Civil War

To understand the collapse, the episode provides a historical overview of Syria’s 13-year civil war, which began with the Arab Spring uprisings in 2011. Initially peaceful protests for freedom and democracy were met with brutal repression from Assad’s regime, leading to armed insurgency and the rise of extremist groups like the Islamic State (ISIS) (05:40 - 07:24). The war resulted in immense human suffering, with over 400,000 casualties and 14 million refugees fleeing the country (23:03).

Gall details the international involvement that sustained Assad’s hold on power, particularly the critical support from Russia and Iran. Russia provided substantial military aid, including planes, jets, and weaponry, while Iran deployed ground forces and Hezbollah fighters from Lebanon to bolster the regime’s forces (07:48 - 09:54).

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Geopolitical Shifts and External Influences

The narrative shifts to the geopolitical dynamics that contributed to the regime’s downfall. Gall explains that Russia and Iran became significantly distracted by other conflicts, notably Russia’s war in Ukraine and Israel’s military actions against Hezbollah in Syria (10:17 - 12:01). This diversion of resources weakened Assad’s primary backers, creating an opportunity for rebel forces to advance rapidly.

Gall observes, “This is a huge cauldron of geopolitical rivalries” (10:00), highlighting the complex interplay of regional and global powers vying for influence in post-Assad Syria. The U.S. maintained a limited military presence, conducting airstrikes to prevent ISIS resurgence, while other nations like Turkey and Israel took active roles in shaping the new Syrian landscape (20:53 - 22:04).

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The Rebel Forces: Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham (HTS)

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the main rebel group responsible for Assad’s ousting: Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham (HTS). Gall provides an in-depth profile of HTS and its leader, Abu Mohammed Al Jalani, a former Al Qaeda member who transformed HTS from a jihadist organization into a more nationalist force (13:53 - 16:46).

Gall recounts her experience embedding with HTS in Idlib province, describing the organization as “super Islamic” and authoritarian, with strict control over media and daily life (17:30 - 19:27). She notes the group’s attempt to rebrand and soften its image, though their past actions, including arrests, beatings, and disappearances, leave the future uncertain (19:37).

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Syrian Public Sentiment and Future Prospects

The episode captures the mixed emotions among Syrians, oscillating between euphoria over Assad’s fall and anxiety about future stability. Gall shares poignant moments of freed prisoners celebrating their newfound freedom (23:03), juxtaposed with fears of potential chaos and renewed conflict over power, resources, and ethnic tensions (23:03 - 24:47).

Gall emphasizes the uncertainty surrounding HTS’s leadership and the broader political landscape: “There’s... everything’s up in the air at the moment” (19:37). The lack of clear leadership and the myriad of competing factions pose significant challenges for Syria’s transition to peace and democracy.

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Global Reactions and Ongoing Developments

In the wake of Assad’s departure, global powers continue to maneuver for influence in Syria. Russia granted Assad and his family political asylum, while the U.S. conducted extensive airstrikes to prevent ISIS from regrouping (24:52). The involvement of Turkey, Iran, Israel, and the United States underscores the ongoing geopolitical contest shaping Syria’s future (20:53).

Gall warns that the situation remains highly fluid, with potential for further conflicts as different groups vie for control: “In these sort of events, you often see different groups turning on each other for power” (19:37). The international community faces the daunting task of supporting Syria’s transition while managing the fragile peace.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reflection on the monumental shift in Syria’s political landscape. While the ousting of Assad marks a historic victory for Syrian rebels and a beacon of hope for many, the path forward is fraught with uncertainty and potential for renewed turmoil. Gall and Tavernise underscore the need for careful observation and support to ensure that Syria can build a stable and democratic future.

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Notable Quotes

• Rud Dashi (Homs, Syria):
  “Everyone’s celebrating. They're singing, they're taking pictures, they're taking videos... It’s the end of 50 year old oppression that tortured us...” (00:37)

• Carlotta Gall:
  “It has been the most incredible turn of events in just 12 days.” (02:44)
  “Assad, for all his brutal repression, is actually barely hanging on.” (07:26)
  “This is the liberation from the Assad regime that was the main aim, and he's achieved that.” (19:37)

• Sabrina Tavernise:
  “It was just unbelievable, really, like that this country suddenly was leaderless.” (04:58)
  “It's like all of the cards have just been thrown up into the air.” (22:04)
  “We have to see what goes forward. We don't know what's going to come next.” (23:03)

---

Implications for the Future

The fall of Assad’s regime represents a pivotal moment for Syria and the broader Middle East. The power vacuum presents both opportunities for democratic renewal and risks of fragmentation and renewed conflict. The international community’s role in supporting a peaceful transition, managing geopolitical tensions, and addressing humanitarian needs will be crucial in shaping Syria’s trajectory in the years to come.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and those seeking to understand the complexities surrounding Syria’s recent political upheaval.

Transcript

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[Rud Dashi]

My name is Rud Dashi. I'm 26 years old. I'm currently in Homs, Syria. There are so many people on the streets, probably all of Syria. I'm not even exaggerating. Everyone's celebrating. They're singing, they're taking pictures, they're taking videos. What you, what you're hearing right now are not bullets, actually. They're just more like fireworks. People are just shocked that we actually got rid of the brutal government that we were under. There is just this peaceful feeling that you get that it's okay. You're this is, this is over. It's over. It's the end of 50 year old oppression that tortured us, that took away loved ones from us. We're all afraid that if we sleep, this might be a dream. Is this a dream?

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi and this is the Daily Syria has been controlled by one family for more than half a century. It ruled by repression, devastation and violence. But about two weeks ago, the regime began to falter. And then over the course of one stunning night, it collapsed. Today, my colleague Carlotta Gall on the fall of Bashar al Assad and what comes Next. It's Monday, December 9th. So, Carlotta, there's been an absolutely incredible turn of events in Syria. We're talking on Sunday morning. Walk us through what happened.

[Carlotta Gall]

It has been the most incredible turn of events in just 12 days. We've turned from what we thought really a frozen conflict going nowhere to an uprising in this 13 year civil war.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Armed groups in Syria have reportedly attacked government forces in the western countryside of Aleppo province.

[Carlotta Gall]

It started with a small rebel group come up from the northwest of the country and very rapidly, in just a matter of days, they took three cities.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

The Syrian army concedes it has lost.

[Carlotta Gall]

Control of large parts of Aleppo. Aleppo in the north, the second biggest city in the country. And then they started to move south.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Islamist forces are on their fourth day of a Lightning offensive through several towns and villages towards Syria's fourth largest city, Hama.

[Carlotta Gall]

And then they kept going.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Opposition fighters now on their way, going south towards Homs.

[Carlotta Gall]

That then leads to the capital, Damascus. This is when suddenly it seemed that they were ambitious enough to actually topple the government. And so by Friday, we knew that the capital was in danger. And Saturday, you saw reports of gunfire in the city. Syrian rebels are telling media outlets they've entered the capital city of Damascus. Then you saw these reports of the army leaving, abandoning the airport, some of them abandoning their uniforms on the roads. And then overnight, Saturday night, suddenly, in a rush, with the help of God, the city of Damascus was liberated and.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

The regime of the tyrant Bashar Al Assad was toppled.

[Carlotta Gall]

The rebels took the state TV and they announced that they'd taken control of the whole of the capital and that President Bashar Al Assad had got on a plane and left the country.

[Rud Dashi]

Long live free Syria.

[Carlotta Gall]

So it's really an incredibly swift movement of events from a total dictatorship to he's gone.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

I mean, it was just unbelievable, really, like that this country suddenly was leaderless.

[Carlotta Gall]

Yes. And Syria has had the same leaders, the same family of leaders for 50 years. A very authoritarian Bashar al Assad has been in power now, but his father was in power before him. And so they've ruled this country with an iron grip since the 1970s. So it's really a big deal.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

It is a big deal, and I want to unpack it with you. So how did this forever regime in Syria suddenly, shockingly, just disappear overnight? Where should we start to explain that?

[Carlotta Gall]

Well, this is the culmination of the Arab spring uprisings of 2011, when different countries started to rise up against the dictatorships. We saw it in Tunisia and we saw it in Egypt, and we saw it in Libya. And Syria joined that run of protests. People daring to come out onto the streets asking for freedom, for democracy, for human rights, dignity. And Syria was the same as the others. But what happened in Syria was the government of Syria under Assad really cracked down, used violence against the protesters, but then did mass arrests, interrogations, torture, disappearances, a lot of executions. And then some of the protesters took up weapons and it became an armed insurgency and a civil war. Essentially, the country was fighting each other. And then this sparked the introduction of really radical extremist jihadist groups. The most well known and largest was Islamic State. It got very, very brutal in Syria. It has a brutal past, but this was something on a different scale. And then Assad doubled down. He gassed Civilians in some of the war to take control back of some of the cities. And then, you know, millions were displaced, fleeing the country, fleeing a lot into Turkey and Lebanon, in neighboring countries, and, you know, heading for Europe or anywhere they could. It was really a most ghastly civil war. And by 2014, hundreds of thousands had been killed and wounded at this point.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Who is winning that war?

[Carlotta Gall]

Well, that's the interesting thing. Assad, for all his brutal repression, is actually barely hanging on. And that's when we started to see other countries that have stakes in Syria start to get involved.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Right, okay. So that is also when Syria starts to get really complicated. So lay that out for me, Carlotta. What starts to happen?

[Carlotta Gall]

Yes. So ISIS was a huge concern, especially for the West. They were already in Iraq, and they were expanding their territory, and they were recruiting massively. So that's when, in 2014, American troops entered the fray, particularly to fight ISIS and to repress this very, very virulent jihadist group that was obviously interested in attacking Western countries.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And so what happened next? Who's the next big player that comes on the scene?

[Carlotta Gall]

So there were actually two big players that came on the scene, and they came in on the side of Assad. That was Russia and Iran. And Russia came in in a very big way with, you know, serious firepower, Planes, jets, fighter bombers, weaponry, and a lot of advice and tactics. And they brought ships into the ports and so on. And then Iran had the foot soldiers on the ground. There were a lot of them who came in from Iran, but they also had Hezbollah, very experienced, very accomplished fight, who came in from Lebanon, and the Iranians sent in advisors and military advisors who ran the campaign. So they really did a great amount of actually retaking territory for the Assad regime.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And why do Iran and Russia enter the war like that?

[Carlotta Gall]

So they. For both Iran and Russia, it was very important to see the Assad regime survive. Russia had long had relations with Syria going back, know, right through the communist times. And so they wanted to be able to keep their access to the Mediterranean, their trade, their diplomatic influence. And Iran had an equally important reason to be involved. They couched it in religious terms, but it was very clearly a geopolitical desire to have good relations with Syria and influence, but also to have a very important land bridge through Syria to their allies, Hezbollah, the militia in Lebanon. So for those reasons, they also wanted to see Assad survive.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So, bottom line, Syria becomes this kind of cauldron of geopolitical rivalries.

[Carlotta Gall]

Absolutely. And those two powers, Iran and Russia, are propping up Assad, he's in power, but he's got all these rebel groups around the country pushed to the edges. And it since 2016, it's been like, locked.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So how do we get from that deadlocked civil war to the rapid toppling of Assad that everybody just watched unfold?

[Carlotta Gall]

So the biggest change, of course, was the two main backers of Assad, Russia and Iran became massively distracted by other events and weakened. It was the wars in other countries that caused this. Russia is engaged in a really tough war in Ukraine and they've had to move troops out of Syria, deploy them in Ukraine. They expended all their efforts and men and money and weapons on that war. And then the second war is obviously Israel's fight, first in Gaza, but then in Lebanon against Hezbollah. And the attacks that Israel has meted out on Iran in Syria, they've done a large number of airstrikes on Iranian elements, but also particular, particularly Hezbollah, who had been the foot soldiers for Iran to help Assad's Assyrian army. They were really hit hard in the recent months and that was very debilitating for the Iranian effort to shore up Assad. And so the moment those things were happening, the Syrian rebels were obviously watching and noticing. They could see that the resistance was weak, that Russia and Iran distracted and struggling, in fact, in both their wars. And that's when they pounced.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

We'll be right back.

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[Carlotta Gall]

My name is Kareem and I have a teenage son. I tell him if there is no physical time, there's no digital time. And what that means is you gotta do what's important for you.

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[Carlotta Gall]

So I have access to all the games. We'll do Wordo many spelling bee.

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[Carlotta Gall]

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[Sabrina Tavernisi]

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[Carlotta Gall]

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[Sabrina Tavernisi]

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[Sabrina Tavernisi]

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[Carlotta Gall]

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[Carlotta Gall]

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[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So who are these rebel forces who just toppled Assad? Tell me about them.

[Carlotta Gall]

So they're a hodgepodge of lots of different groups, but the main mover and the main group behind this offensive is Hayat Tahrir Al Sham. It's called HTS for short. In the west, its name means the Organization for the Liberation of Syria or of the Levant. It's a very Islamic, very strict actually organization comes from the jihadi tradition and it's designated by many countries in the west and the United States as a terror group.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And who leads it? Who's in charge?

[Carlotta Gall]

It's led by a Saudi born Syrian. He's in his 40s. He's called Abu Mohammed Al Jalani. That's his nom de guerre, his chosen name for the war. He lived in Saudi then. He grew up in his teens in Syria. He was a student when he then left to join the fight against America in Iraq.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Oh, wow.

[Carlotta Gall]

And he joined Al Qaeda. And then he got arrested by the US Forces in Iraq. And he spent several years in Buka Jail, which is a famous prison camp where a lot of the Al Qaeda and Islamist militias were detained and kept. And of course it became a great meeting place for them all because they were all in there together for many years. So that is his history.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

That's really interesting because it probably means he had some pretty serious jihadist credentials. But he clearly got out of prison. What did he do next?

[Carlotta Gall]

What we know is that he eventually returned to Syria and he set up an Al Qaeda affiliated group at the beginning of the civil war. And then he was among the groups that were gradually pushed back as the Russians and the Iranians helped the Assad government take control. The rebels were pushed back into the northwestern corner of Syria in Idlib province. And that's where he ended up in 2016. And then there's something really interesting happened. They're down and out. They're under bombardment. They've really got their backs to the wall. And he, as a leader of his group he starts reforming, he change is the name of his group, and then gradually he breaks from Al Qaeda and he turns himself into a Syrian nationalist leader. And it's been a steady thing since then over the last eight years. And we're all watching to see is it a big PR push or is it really serious?

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Yeah, that's what I want to know. I mean, can one be former Al Qaeda? Like, how does that even work?

[Carlotta Gall]

Well, I think it is interesting in Syria, I think, you know, I followed jihadi groups all over the world, and a lot of them, they talk tough talk for several reasons, to look strong and to look aggressive, but also because they think it ticks some boxes where they can get support and financing and so on. And I think the Syrian groups were just the same. I've never met Jelani, but I've asked many people who have met him, and some will say he's a die hard, others say he's more pragmatic. And I actually went four years ago on an embed with HTS to their stronghold in Idlib.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Wait, Clara, you went on an embed with hts?

[Carlotta Gall]

I did, several times, in fact, because there were some things they decided they needed to tell the Western world. So they invited journalists like me, I was based in Istanbul, to come and see. And the trip includes always a long lunch and a sort of long political discussion. I mean, it's not quite a long diatribe, but where they explain what they're about and what they believe in.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So what was it like there, Carlotta?

[Carlotta Gall]

They are super Islamic and you could feel they are authoritarian. They controlled everything. They controlled where we went. We could talk to whoever we want, but they were very cautious to be in charge. And of course, between the lines, we could understand that these guys rule it, but they are of their society. There's not much freedom of speech certainly in the media, but there were other things that I think people felt they were running quite a good ship.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And how were they for women? How was life for women? There often an indicator with Islamic regimes.

[Carlotta Gall]

To tell you when you go to Idlib, most people are destitute. So quite frankly, they won't talk to you about Islamist rules. They'll talk to you about they haven't got enough food for their kids. But we did reporting on some of the women who felt very threatened by this group and felt they had to leave. There were people who were arrested, there were people who were beaten. There's possibly some people who were disappeared. So it's a pretty ruthless group who were set at first on gaining complete control. And now they're trying to reform themselves and appear softer. But their first years when they were establishing control were. They were pretty ruthless.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So it sounds like not quite Taliban, like, but some hard edges.

[Carlotta Gall]

Yes, I would say that. Exactly that.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So in other words, very unclear what this group could mean for the future of Syria or even really if it's going to be the future of Syria.

[Carlotta Gall]

Absolutely. It's very fluid. We know that Assad has left the country, and we've seen that Jelani has arrived in Damascus. He's made a statement to the nation. He's called on his troops to behave, not to pursue people, not to destroy things. But I think it's very clear that for him, this. It's the liberation from the Assad regime that was the main aim, and he's achieved that. So now what does he do next? There are a lot of different groups. They're sort of under an umbrella of his. But of course, you know, in these sort of events, you often see different groups turning on each other for power. So that's the $64 billion question of what happens further. But he does seem to be someone who has the sternness and the charisma possibly to manage that, but we'll have to see. And he's. He's really not been out there all these years. He hasn't done a lot of interviews. So we don't even know how much the Syrians will like him and accept him. So there's. Everything's up in the air at the moment.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So that's Jelani. But of course, there's this geopolitical earthquake that this is causing. Right. That is happening at the same time.

[Carlotta Gall]

Absolutely. And this is, you know, a very powerful, important country in the Middle East, a crucial place on the map. If you look at it, all the countries around are going to be deeply concerned and want to influence. You've got Turkey and the north involved already with troops inside Syria. You've got Iran, of course, hurting and pushed out, but already saying it wants a role in Syria in the future. And then you've got Israel actually taking action. Just this morning, we learned that they've moved in troops and taken control of a buffer zone on its border with Syria. And then Russia is also saying it still wants, although that remains to be seen, if the jihadis would accept that. And then, of course, the United states, which has 900 troops still in Syria and has made some strikes just to remind opponents not to come and attack them. So it's a huge, as we mentioned before, a huge cauldron of geopolitical rivalries. And that's going to be something to try and work out and decipher in the coming days and weeks.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

It's like all of the cards have just been thrown up into the air.

[Carlotta Gall]

I think you're right. Yeah. And that's also for the Arab world, this was so interesting and important because they were steadily moving towards acceptance of Assad staying in power. And now that's been completely turned upside down.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Carlotta, I want to just pause for a moment and think about what just happened from the perspective of Syrians. I mean, as we said, this place has literally been under this regime for about half a century. That's just changed. That's an incredible moment for the Syrian people. It's like an entire country just suddenly gets to wake up from this long sleep or something. And I would guess that while that is potentially hopeful, it's also a really perilous moment because as you and I both know, when dictators collapse, violence and chaos can ensue.

[Carlotta Gall]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me and for a lot of the Syrians I've been talking to in the last week and week and a half, it's the sense of liberation, the relief, the excitement, and the most compelling has been the release of people from prisons all over the country. There have been extraordinary scenes of people staggering out and some of them barely able to walk, but so happy. And some of them have been in prison for, you know, more than a decade, including children who've been imprisoned with their mothers. So that's a huge release for the entire country. And that's why they're all celebrating on the streets at the moment. But of course, the Syrians are saying this is a great relief, lifted. But we're also very fearful, I think, for Syrians. You know, we've had 400,000 people die in this 13 year civil war. 14 million people left the country as refugees abroad. And the fear, of course, is everyone that it's going to go back to that or more or different ethnic groups, God forbid, start fighting each other, you know, whether it's for power in a city or in a whole region or over oil fields or wealth. So that's what the Syrians fear. They're telling me we're celebrating today, but just for one day, then we're very worried, you know, so we have to see what goes forward. We don't know what's going to come next.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Carlotta, thank you.

[Carlotta Gall]

Thank.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

On Sunday night, President Assad surfaced in Russia. Russian state media said that Assad and his family had been granted political asylum there. Meanwhile, the US Military carried out one of the largest series of airstrikes in Syria in months, saying that it would not allow ISIS to take advantage of the collapse of government there to regroup. We'll be right back.

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[Sabrina Tavernisi]

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I'm Andrew Ossorkin, the founder and editor of DealBook. It's a daily business and policy report from the New York Times. Every year I interview some of the world's most influential leaders at the Dealbook Summit. It's a live event in New York City and I've had some fascinating and unfiltered conversations which you can listen to in our limited series podcast. We got a new season out and it is packed with more newsmaking moments. Figures like Jeff Bezos, Bill Clinton, Serena Williams and Sam Altman listen to the Dealbook Summit wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Here's what else you should know. Today, in his first sit down broadcast network interview since winning reelection, President elect Donald Trump outlined an aggressive plan for the early days of his second term.

[Carlotta Gall]

You promised to end birthright citizenship on day one.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Is that still your plan?

[Carlotta Gall]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Speaking on Meet the Press on NBC, he said he would try to end automatic citizenship for children of immigrants.

[Carlotta Gall]

We maybe have to go back to the people, but we have to end it.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And he said he would pardon supporters who stormed The Capitol on January 6, 2021.

[Carlotta Gall]

First day, first day. First day. Yeah, I'm looking for these pardons. These people have been there. How long is it, three or four years?

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

He said that members of Congress who investigated his role in that attack on the Capitol, like Republican Liz Cheney, should be put in jail. He said he would not direct his new attorney general or FBI director to pursue the matter, but indicated that he expected them to do it on their own. Today's episode was produced by Claire Tennisketter, Carlos Prieto and Relle Bonja, with help from Lindsay Garrison. It was edited by Patricia Willens with help from Ben Calhoun, contains original music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell and Pat McCusker and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Run and Ben Landsfurk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Yara Bayoumi. That's it for the Daily I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.

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[Carlotta Gall]

My kids are teenagers and we spend a lot of time talking about the do's and don'ts of social media.

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Let's just say conversations are plentiful in our household.

[Carlotta Gall]

I tell him if there is no physical time, there's no digital time.

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