Michael Steinberger (2:01)

Thank you for having me.

Natalie Kitroev (2:03)

You just published this book, it's called the Philosopher in the Valley, about Palantir and its CEO Alex Karp. And in the process of working on that book, you spent a lot of time with Karp and inside the company, this company that is playing a very unique role in the second Trump administration. So I can't think of anyone better to ask. What exactly does Palantir do?

Michael Steinberger (2:28)

Well, first I should say that it's a quite secretive company. A lot of its work is done with intelligence services, the military. So there's a lot of stuff they do that they can't talk about that and we can't know about. The work is also technologically quite complex. Essentially, Palantir makes software that enables organizations to make faster, better use of their data. Typically, we're talking about large organizations that Collect sizable quantities of data. Palantir's software pulls in all the data, merges it, and then finds patterns, trends, connections in that data, stuff that might elude the human eye. One very powerful example of Palantir's work was in the war in Ukraine. Palantir's software is the backbone for the Pentagon's AI driven targeting program. And this was used extensively in the first months of the war to help the Ukrainians withstand the Russian assault. So a lot of satellite data was being pulled in by the military along with intercepted Russian communications. And the US Military was able to say to the Ukrainians, okay, here's where there's a troop formation. There's a general here. If you fire a missile at these coordinates, you might be very happy with the results. And Palantir's technology was instrumental to this and played a very significant role in enabling the Ukrainians to withstand the initial Russian assault.

Natalie Kitroev (3:50)

So that example of the war in Ukraine obviously shows the value of this software. But this is a company that also prompts a lot of concern. Right? Can you just explain that part?

Michael Steinberger (4:01)

Yeah. It not only prompts a lot of concern. Many people regard Palantir as possibly the most dangerous company in the world. Part of this is some of the clients it has. It's used by the CIA. In fact, the CIA was an early investor in Palantir. It's also used by the Mossad and other clandestine services. It's used extensively by law enforcement. A lot of personal information is flowing through Palantir's pipelines. And the company has also been at the center of the issues that have dominated the headlines this year and have generated a lot of controversy. ICE and deportations, Doge, Gaza, Iran, and AI.

Natalie Kitroev (4:39)

Can you just go a little deeper on one of those examples? Like how has it been at the center of things?

Michael Steinberger (4:44)

Well, for instance, Palantir's technology is integral to the immigration crackdown taking place. Right now. ICE is making extensive use of Palantir's technology to identify and facilitate deportations. And what has people particularly concerned is that ICE appears to be building a massive surveillance apparatus, and Palantir appears to be at the center of that. Now, Palantir sees itself as a force for good in the world, but even people at the company acknowledge that its technology could be used to do harm.

Natalie Kitroev (5:15)

And.

Michael Steinberger (5:15)

And it's been clear for some time that its technology in the hands of an authoritarian regime would be a very powerful tool. And who gets to use Palantir's software and for what purpose is decided by one person. The Company's CEO, Alex Karp.

Natalie Kitroev (5:31)

Tell me about Alex Karp. Who is he?

Michael Steinberger (5:34)

Alex Karp is maybe the most unique figure on the global business scene. He and I first started talking in 2019. We had a couple conversations that year, including one at a home that he owns in Vermont. So you just found this place? Mm.

Alex Karp (5:48)

It's a little bit of a dump, but I like it.

Michael Steinberger (5:50)

It's nice. To say the home was off the grid would be an understatement.

Alex Karp (5:55)

I'm happy with it.

Michael Steinberger (5:56)

I like it. And, I mean, you've got privacy here. Yep.

Alex Karp (6:00)

My neighbors. I don't know if you saw the neighbors.

Michael Steinberger (6:01)

They're a farmer to the left here.

Alex Karp (6:04)

Yeah.

Michael Steinberger (6:05)

We had a conversation over lunch, but it's difficult for Karp to sit still. And as soon as we were finished.

Alex Karp (6:10)

You know, why don't we go for a walk and then I'll tell you about it.

Michael Steinberger (6:13)

Took a long hike. We were trailed by two of his bodyguards, and two more bodyguards remained in the parking.

Alex Karp (6:19)

If my phone's around, someone's listening.

Michael Steinberger (6:22)

Someone is listening.

Alex Karp (6:23)

Definitively.

Michael Steinberger (6:24)

So a foreign intelligence agency?

Alex Karp (6:26)

Absolutely. It would be irresponsible for them not to listen to my phone call.

Michael Steinberger (6:30)

So the conversation. He's very security conscious and for a good reason. He's running a company that works with the CIA and other clandestine services that is a major defense contractor. Do you worry about your personal safety?

Meta Advertiser (6:42)

Absolutely.

Michael Steinberger (6:43)

You do?

Alex Karp (6:43)

I'd be insane not to.

Michael Steinberger (6:44)

Yeah.

Alex Karp (6:45)

I mean, when they got me, the bodyguards, I thought I was insane. But now I think it's prescient because historically, we've gotten lots of threats from, like, far right neo Nazis.

Michael Steinberger (6:53)

Yeah.

Alex Karp (6:54)

Now, I mean, it's like people who hate us come in many different stripes.

Michael Steinberger (6:58)

Yeah. He's had a very unusual path to this role.

Natalie Kitroev (7:01)

And what is that path?

Michael Steinberger (7:03)

He's a Philly kid. He grew up in Philadelphia, Grew up in a very left wing household. His father was Jewish pediatrician. His mother is black and an artist. He's biracial, Jewish, and also severely dyslexic. Yeah.

Alex Karp (7:15)

It's like I have this weirdly structured brain. The motor is just structured differently.

Michael Steinberger (7:19)

Yeah, you think differently. And Karp and his brother, who's two years younger, spend a lot of time going to anti war protests, anti nuclear protests. And he ends up going to college locally to Haverford College, a small liberal arts school with a strong tradition of dissent. Perfect place for someone who grew up in the political milieu that Karp did. I should acknowledge at this point that he and I were classmates at haverford Amazing.

Natalie Kitroev (7:43)

I should acknowledge at this point that I grew up on Haverford College's campus. Cause my parents taught there.

Michael Steinberger (7:49)

Haverford's a small place, but it is converging in this moment here, isn't it?

Natalie Kitroev (7:53)

Indeed.

Michael Steinberger (7:54)

So in any event, he insists that he didn't work that hard at Haverford. I think his path in life would suggest otherwise. I think the library saw a lot more of him than it did of me. Which may go some way to explaining why he became a billionaire and I did not. But as a young man, he identified very strongly with his black heritage. At Haverford, he was very involved with black student affairs. In our senior year in college, he helped organize an anti racism conference at Yale University. After Haverford, he goes to Stanford Law School, which he considers one of the biggest mistakes of his life.

Alex Karp (8:27)

I just hated it.

Michael Steinberger (8:28)

He's miserable there. He finds the intellectual climate very dissatisfying. The only thing that makes law school tolerable for Karp is the friendship. He strikes up with another first year law student at Stanford, Peter Thiel.

Natalie Kitroev (8:41)

Peter Thiel, the now very prominent libertarian conservative, now a big Republican donor.

Michael Steinberger (8:46)

Exactly. They bonded over their shared dislike of law school, and they also bonded over their love of political argument. As Thiel said to me, he was more the capitalist and Karp was the socialist.

Alex Karp (8:57)

We've been having these feral discourses now for 25, 26 years.

Michael Steinberger (9:03)

Karp says that they argued like feral animals. Wow. These dorm room bull sessions were apparently epic.

Natalie Kitroev (9:08)

Got it. They had their own little debate club.

Michael Steinberger (9:10)

That's right. So, you know, Carpentill graduated from Stanford Law in 1992. Karp had no intention of pursuing a career in law. Instead, he went to Germany to pursue a doctorate in philosophy.

Alex Karp (9:21)

But I became myself in my adolescence in Germany. Yeah, you'd say sichenfalten, which means, like, I was able to expand into my true self.

Michael Steinberger (9:31)

Yeah.

Alex Karp (9:31)

Or the self I was most comfortable with.

Michael Steinberger (9:33)

Gotcha. He went to Germany because he was, you know, the writers that he found most impactful were German, but he was also drawn there because he was Jewish. His father's family had come from Germany, and he wanted to gain a deeper understanding of the Holocaust and why Germany, which had been the pinnacle of European civilization, descended into such barbarism and turned on its Jewish population so savagely. And he ends up writing his dissertation on the rhetoric of fascism.

Natalie Kitroev (10:00)

Hmm.

Michael Steinberger (10:01)

Meanwhile, Peter Thiel is back in the United States. He works for a time for a New York law firm, then ends up working at an investment bank. Unsatisfied with that he heads back out to Silicon Valley where the dot com boom is underway and co founds an online payments company PayPal in 1998. Three years later, the world changes. Just a few moments ago, allegedly a plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. When 911 happens.

Natalie Kitroev (10:26)

Oh, there's another one.

Alex Karp (10:27)

Another plane just hit, right?

Michael Steinberger (10:29)

Oh my God, another plane.

Alex Karp (10:31)

The unthinkable happened today. The World Trade center, both towers gone. The American people want the answers to so many questions.

Michael Steinberger (10:43)

Around 9 11, Thiel wonders if the attack could have been prevented had government agencies been able to more readily share information with one another. The FBI had information, the CIA had information. If that information had been pooled, it's possible the attack could have been prevented. The 911 Commission, when it issued its final report in 2004 said that there had been a failure to connect the dots, in part because information was siloed. And this is the idea that gives rise to Palantir. Thio believed he could create a company that would help intelligence analysts connect the dots, find the needles in the haystack and prevent future attacks. And it's around this time that Karp resurfaces in the Bay Area. He's back from Germany and he and Thiel reunite. Thiel asks Karp to help him raise some money for Palantir. This company's trying to get off the ground. Thiel interviews a couple of people for the CEO position. But then he and the other people involved in founding Palantir realized Karp is probably the right guy for the job.

Natalie Kitroev (11:52)

Can you say why? Because Karp actually seems to me an unlikely pick to be CEO. He isn't really in the Silicon Valley tech scene at this point, right?

Michael Steinberger (12:02)

No, he's not. I mean, in some ways he's a very unlikely choice. And he admitted as much to me.

Alex Karp (12:06)

I had no skills.

Michael Steinberger (12:09)

That's the truth.

Alex Karp (12:10)

I wasn't trained in business. I didn't know anything about startup culture. I didn't know anything about building a business. I didn't know anything about financing a business.

Michael Steinberger (12:17)

He's got no background in business, no training in computer science, and of course he's coming from a left wing household. And now he's going to be working for a company that's at the nexus of technology in the national security state. He is on paper a very unlikely fit. And yet he is very passionate. I mean, the moment he gets involved, he is very passionate about what Palantir is doing.

Alex Karp (12:38)

I just thought this sounds like the coolest idea ever.

Michael Steinberger (12:40)

You thought? Yeah.

Alex Karp (12:41)

So if I pass this up I'll regret it.

Natalie Kitroev (12:45)

What exactly about what Palantir is up to at this point is Karp passionate about?

Michael Steinberger (12:50)

Well, Palantir is this rare burden that's a very ideological company. It doesn't exist just to help the US Government fight the war on terrorism, but it exists more broadly to help defend the West. That is their view. And he's passionate about this, defending the west, but also defending what he sees as core Western values. Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, what we know as civil liberties. He believed that Palantir could develop technology that would enable the government to find the bad guys without becoming a massive dragnet pulling in lots of innocent Americans. And he's drawn to Palantir's mission for very personal reasons, reasons that are tied to his own identity.

Alex Karp (13:31)

If you're me and you wake up every morning like I still do, thinking, I am totally screwed, that's how I wake up every morning. That's how I've been waking up every morning my whole life.

Michael Steinberger (13:42)

You wake up every morning thinking, I'm totally screwed.

Alex Karp (13:44)

Yeah.

Michael Steinberger (13:44)

Because he understands from a young age, he says, that he had, in his view, some strikes against him.

Alex Karp (13:49)

And I'm this racially amorphous Jewish kid who's also dyslexic. I am fucked. That's how I see myself. That's how I saw myself.

Michael Steinberger (13:58)

And it's a sense of vulnerability he carries into adulthood and brings with him to Palantir.

Alex Karp (14:03)

There's no aspect of my life that was not motivated by absolute terror that propelled almost every decision. It propels a lot of decisions to this company, and I don't have less of it than I did when I was a little kid.

Michael Steinberger (14:20)

In the aftermath of 9 11, there was obviously a lot of concern that there were going to be many more terrorist attacks. And Karp's view is that when people feel threatened, whether because of crime or because of terrorism, they inevitably turn to the far right.

Alex Karp (14:35)

And why do I care about this tendency of the far right? Because who's the first person who's going to get hung when they come to power?

Michael Steinberger (14:43)

By the way, the far, far, far.

Alex Karp (14:45)

Far, far left isn't much better either. You make a list, and I will show you who they get first.

Michael Steinberger (14:50)

It's me. And he wants to prevent that, because liberal democracy, robust protection of minority rights, these are things that matter greatly to him personally. And so he sees Palantir as a way of possibly preventing that political outcome.

Natalie Kitroev (15:05)

It's interesting. He views preventing terrorist attacks as key to preventing the American public from turning to the far right out of fear.

Michael Steinberger (15:16)

Exactly. He thought that if there were more terrorist attacks and many more mass casualty events because of terrorism, voters were inevitably going to turn to the far right because they think that the far right will protect them and they will become much less inclined to. To protect minorities and so forth, because they're scared and they want protection, and they think the far right will protect them, they will turn to authoritarianism. He wants to prevent that outcome, and he sees Palantir as a means, possibly, of helping prevent that.

Natalie Kitroev (15:46)

Okay, and how does this ideological bent, this commitment to defending the west, actually manifest in Palantir's work?

Michael Steinberger (15:54)

Well, it begins with the CIA, which becomes a Palantir client. They then develop a business with the U.S. military. And this is very much in keeping with their mission. They want to be the software supplier of choice to the national security state. But then in the 2010s, they start developing business on the civilian side of the federal government with a number of government agencies, including ice.

Natalie Kitroev (16:17)

Hmm.

Michael Steinberger (16:18)

And this contract becomes a flashpoint for Palantir, the most controversial part of Palantir's work for the government.

Natalie Kitroev (16:25)

And what is Palantir doing for ice, at least at the beginning?

Michael Steinberger (16:29)

Well, it's a relationship that began actually, under the Obama administration. A lot of Palantir's work begins with clients in moments of crisis. And ICE had a crisis on its hands.

Natalie Kitroev (16:41)

And now news about the shooting of two Americans south of the US Border in Mexico. One Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent killed, another wounded.

Michael Steinberger (16:50)

An ICE special agent had been assassinated by a Mexican drug cartel. Special Agent Jaime Zapata was shot several times in the chest and killed. And ICE needed help finding the assassins.

Natalie Kitroev (17:02)

There's an intense manhunt underway in Mexico right now for the killers of an American immigration officer. Both US And Mexican investigators involved and turned to Palantir.

Michael Steinberger (17:13)

And within a matter of hours, Palantir engineers had the software up and running for ice. And we're putting in a wide variety of data and including phone records, bank records, any footage that might have been pulled from surveillance cameras. And within two weeks after Jaime Zapata was laid to rest yesterday, Mexican authorities took one of the suspects into custody. Today, they had apprehended the assailant and also confiscated millions of dollars worth of drugs. After that, ICE awards Palantir a contract in 2014, working with a branch of ICE called Homeland Security Investigations, which deals with things like human trafficking and drug trafficking. It's a relationship that doesn't draw much attention until Donald Trump is elected president. The first time in 2016, he had run on a promise to crack down on immigration, and ICE is instrumental to enforcing that crackdown. And Palantir becomes the object of protests because of its relationship with ice.

Natalie Kitroev (18:18)

How so?

Michael Steinberger (18:23)

There are protests outside its headquarters in Palo Alto when immigrants are under attack.

Natalie Kitroev (18:29)

Where do we go?

Michael Steinberger (18:31)

And outside other Palantir offices, protesters held.

Natalie Kitroev (18:34)

Signs like, palantir, wake up. You're complicit.

Michael Steinberger (18:38)

There are boycotts on campuses, people saying that they don't want Palantir's recruiters to appear on their campuses. Palantir is kicked out of several major tech conferences because people don't want it there. And there's also a fair amount of internal dissent. There are hundreds of employees at Palantir who make known their objection to working with ICE and to having any role in Trump's immigration crackdown.

Natalie Kitroev (19:00)

I'm interested. How does Karp, this one time activist himself, this son of leftists, how does he respond to the outcry on the left over this contract?

Michael Steinberger (19:10)

Well, he makes clear back in Trump's first presidency that he is not a fan of Donald Trump.

Alex Karp (19:16)

I understand why the protesters protest us. I grew up protesting people.

Michael Steinberger (19:20)

But he also thinks that the protesters, and Democrats more broadly, are very misguided on the issue of immigration.

Alex Karp (19:26)

And, you know, I am a progressive, and many progressives believe that we should have strong border enforcement. So that's going to be part of the progressive tent if we progressives want to win.

Michael Steinberger (19:36)

Voters are not happy about scenes of chaos at the border. They don't like illegal immigration because they think that it would depress the wages of working class Americans. And Karp's view is that if Democrats and progressives don't take those concerns seriously, they're going to turn to people who do. That's why Donald Trump was elected in 2016, in Karp's view. And this is a very consistent position all along. For Karp, it's the same view that informed his view of terrorism. If people on the left don't take concerns about public safety seriously, voters are going to turn to people on the right who do, and people on the left are not going to like the results.

Natalie Kitroev (20:11)

Interesting. He justifies the work Palantir is doing with ICE as very much fitting into this idea of securing the border, something he views as a progressive stance.

Michael Steinberger (20:22)

He does. He says at this time that he is the progressive warrior. He's the true progressive. He is doing more to defend the values that liberals claim to cherish and than they are. He believes that Palantir, and whether it's helping enforce immigration laws or fighting terrorism, is defending liberal progressive values. But he's also stung by the criticism that he and Palantir are getting from the left by the vitriol directed at them. And over time, he grows increasingly disenchanted with the Democrats and the left, disenchantment that grows during the Biden presidency and that culminates with a massive event that ends up cementing his break with The Democrats, the October 7th terrorist attack in Israel.

Natalie Kitroev (21:21)

We'll be right back.

Michael Steinberger (21:25)

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Natalie Kitroev (22:55)

Okay, Michael. So by the time of the October 7th attack on Israel in 2023, you'd been interviewing Alex Karp for several years. So how'd you see him change after that moment?

Michael Steinberger (23:07)

Well, Karp is shaken by the events of October 7th, as many people were. He's very supportive of Israel. He sees Israel's security in very personal terms. At one point he had said to me that if things go sideways, Israel's a place I can go. So it's very much bound up in this sense of vulnerability that he feels as someone who is Jewish. And October 7th just kind of crystallizes all these fear and sense of vulnerability. He says to Me at one point. This is a survival situation. And he means that as much for himself as it is for other people.

Natalie Kitroev (23:40)

And how does his really strong reaction to this moment, to these attacks, shape Palantir's work?

Alex Karp (23:48)

There is no such thing anymore of being on all sides. Palantir only supplies its products to Western allies. I am proud that we are supporting Israel in every way we can.

Michael Steinberger (23:57)

Palantir already has an office in Tel Aviv. Software has been used by the Mossad for a number of years. But not long after October 7, it sends multiple engineers there because the Israeli Defense Forces want to use the software. There's interest from Shin Bet, which is the domestic intelligence services. And Karp's view is we're going to give them anything and everything they need. Palantir takes out a full page ad in the New York Times saying that Palantir stands with Israel. And this messaging is not just directed at the general public, it's also directed at Palantir employees. Because he says to me privately that he wants it understood that whereas he was very willing to tolerate the dissent back during the first Trump presidency over Palantir's work with ice, he's really not in the mood to tolerate any internal dissent over the work Palantir is doing to support Israel after October 7th.

Natalie Kitroev (24:53)

Have you lost employees because of this?

Alex Karp (24:55)

We've lost employees. I'm sure we'll lose employees. I'm sure we'll lose. You know, it's like if you have a position that does not cost you ever to lose an employee. It's not a position.

Michael Steinberger (25:03)

He says very clearly, if you can't abide by what we're doing, then maybe Palantir isn't the place for you. Free, free Palestine. Free, free, free Palestine.

Natalie Kitroev (25:15)

And all this is in a context in which we're seeing growing protests on college campuses and elsewhere in the US over Israel's response to these attacks. From the river to the Sea, the wide scale bombing of Gaza. This is very much top of mind.

Michael Steinberger (25:31)

Exactly. And he is furious about the protests on campus.

Alex Karp (25:40)

And I'm telling young people you are breathing the vapors of a dangerous new fake and self destructive religion when you are sitting at your elite school pretending because you watched TikTok twice and got an A plus on some crazy paper, that you actually understand the world.

Michael Steinberger (25:57)

He is very outspoken in following October 7, very outspoken about the protests on campuses, using every opportunity he can get to lash out at the protesters, to say that they are delusional, that they.

Alex Karp (26:09)

Are misguided, and they don't see the contradiction in their behavior of writing papers about microdiscrimination and then excluding the longest existing minority overtly. They literally don't see the contradiction.

Michael Steinberger (26:23)

He thinks the protests are riddled with antisemitism and are very dangerous. And he sees this as reflective of a broader rot in his mind. On the left. He remains supportive of President Biden. He has written checks to the Biden campaign and says he's going to continue to do so because Biden has been very supportive of the Israeli government. But he's less happy with the Democratic Party in general. He believes that the far left is the tail wagging the dog and that the far left of the Democratic Party is anti Israel and is now becoming increasingly anti Semitic.

Natalie Kitroev (27:07)

So this kid who grew up a lefty progressive no longer really sees himself in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party.

Michael Steinberger (27:16)

That's right.

Alex Karp (27:17)

Not all criticism of Israel is anti Semitism, but a larger portion of it is than we realized, and we have to call it out.

Michael Steinberger (27:26)

And he goes to an event in California, the Reagan national defense forum, in December 2023.

Alex Karp (27:32)

And I'm one of the largest donors to the Democratic Party, and quite frankly, I'm calling it out and I'm giving to Republicans. If you keep up with this behavior, I'm going to change. A lot of people like me are going to change. We have to really call this out. It is completely beyond the bounds.

Michael Steinberger (27:46)

And he says that he wants the Democratic Party to speak in unambiguous terms, to unambiguously denounce the protesters for being anti Semitic. And he thinks that needs to be shut down. And if it's not shut, he's saying that he's prepared to walk away from the Democratic Party.

Natalie Kitroev (28:01)

And does he make good on that threat?

Michael Steinberger (28:03)

Yes. He starts donating much more aggressively to Republicans after October 7th. And in the private conversations that he and I had, he makes clear that he is looking much more favorably on Republicans, and he's even warming to the idea of a second Trump presidency. Not long after October 7th, we had a conversation, and he had asked me not to record the conversation, but said I could take notes. And Trump's name comes up, and he says, and this was unprovoked. I didn't even say anything. And he says, I don't think Trump is a fascist. I don't think Trump is an anti Semite. I don't think Trump is a bigot. It really felt like he was trying to convince himself of something. And at that point, it became clear to me that he believed Trump was likely to win the 2024 election, and that he was, in a sense, in a way, talking himself into getting behind that.

Natalie Kitroev (28:53)

It's kind of wild to conceive of because, you know, you told us that in the first Trump term, Karp was very open about being against the administration, against Trump himself. Do you think he was trying to talk himself into supporting Trump in part because he saw there could be just a huge business opportunity there?

Michael Steinberger (29:12)

Well, I think he certainly recognized that he was going to have to say nice things about Trump this time around. I mean, the first rule of doing business in Donald Trump's Washington is don't piss off Donald Trump. The second rule is do everything you can to curry favor with Donald Trump. And if you're a major government contractor, as Palantir is, you have a particularly acute need to curry favor with Donald Trump. Sakarb recognizes that a second Trump presidency is potentially a huge opportunity for Palantir. And he writes a million dollar check to the Trump Vance Inauguration Committee. And Palantir lands a number of deals during the first months of Trump's second presidency. Its software is used extensively by Doge. It gets a $10 billion contract with the army, and it also gets another contract with ICE, this one for $30 million to help with deportations. And amid all this, I'll tell you.

Alex Karp (30:08)

Something, I think Trump does very, very well. He says, I'm not going to accept a paradigm that essentially leads to a stupid conclusion.

Michael Steinberger (30:16)

Karp starts publicly singing Trump's praises.

Alex Karp (30:19)

Honestly, I think he's quite brilliant at.

Michael Steinberger (30:20)

This point, saying lots of nice things about Donald Trump in public.

Alex Karp (30:24)

I'm very supportive of the president's border and national security thing is really the only two things that I actually focus on. And I guess in that sense, I support the president a lot.

Michael Steinberger (30:33)

He says that on the issues that are of paramount concern to him now, the border and national security, he thinks that Trump is doing a great job.

Alex Karp (30:42)

Getting a peace deal, closing the border, degrading Iran are world historic accomplishments. And I, and I don't see why you wouldn't acknowledge that.

Michael Steinberger (30:51)

And when confronted during interviews, if this represents a big shift in his own position, he insists, no, I didn't shift my politics.

Alex Karp (31:00)

The political parties have shifted their politics. The idea that what's being called progressive is in any way progressive is a complete farce.

Michael Steinberger (31:08)

He continues to insist that he's a true progressive, and he thinks that the left has stopped being progressive.

Alex Karp (31:14)

I grew up in a highly intellectual, mostly Jewish, incredibly left wing environment. And every Saturday and every Friday I heard A lecture about how the conservatives are going to destroy this country with illegal immigration because it's going to undermine the fabric of the American worker. That's what it means to be a progressive. Being progressive doesn't mean just, oh, I. Oh, it feels so good to be involved with this.

Natalie Kitroev (31:41)

So I want to ask, given the trajectory that you've sketched out for us, of this incredibly powerful company, Palantir, being driven, at least in part, by the evolution of its CEO, Karp. We've been talking about the work that Palantir does as being influenced by Karp's personal politics. But I have to ask, do you see his journey from anti Trump to now all in on the administration as purely ideological, or is it about money? Because the shift has obviously been incredibly profitable for the company.

Michael Steinberger (32:16)

It's a combination of the two. And what proportion of each? I can't really say. I will say this. One of the things that makes Karp such an interesting figure is opportunism isn't good enough for him. He has to find an ideological reason, something personal, ideological, to really get on board with something. It can't just be opportunism. You see, with a number of major tech executives have gotten on board with Trump the second time around, and with some of them, the cravenness drips off them like sweat. Karp is a little different. He has found reasons to get on board with Trump. Reasons in his own mind, reasons that go beyond necessity and opportunism. He thinks Trump is the right guy on the issues.

Natalie Kitroev (32:58)

He says he cares about immigration, for example. Does he engage at all on the questions that people are raising about ice, using the data that it has on the people in this country to, you know, snatch people off the streets, break up families, that kind of thing?

Michael Steinberger (33:13)

He and I have had a number of conversations, and he's kind of dismissive of those concerns. He doesn't really want to talk about them. And he deflects them by saying that I and other people just have Trump derangement syndrome.

Natalie Kitroev (33:25)

Meaning what?

Michael Steinberger (33:26)

Meaning that the people who raising these issues, raising these concerns are just so hostile to Trump, so blinded with rage at Trump, that they can't think rationally about these issues.

Natalie Kitroev (33:35)

But.

Michael Steinberger (33:36)

But I also know that Karp's views on immigration have changed. And this goes back to October 7th. Before October 7th, he saw the immigration issue. He saw the chaos at the border as bad for the Democrats. After October 7th, he also sees the immigration issue and the border as bad for American Jews.

Natalie Kitroev (33:56)

Why?

Michael Steinberger (33:57)

Because he thinks it's poking the bear that an uncontrolled border, lots of illegal immigration, is radicalizing Americans against diversity, which he sees as really bad for the Jews. Because if the voters want the border controlled and a democratically elected government doesn't deliver on what they want, they may turn to more radical solutions. The backlash next time may be even more severe, and people might turn to a genuine autocrat, which would be, in Karp's view, really bad for the Jews.

Natalie Kitroev (34:29)

It's worth noting that there are people who believe that Donald Trump, while democratically elected, is leaning toward autocratic tactics himself. And it sounds like Karp doesn't believe that. He believes there are many worse options out there.

Michael Steinberger (34:48)

He pushes back furiously against any suggestion that Trump is an autocrat or a fascist. In a recent interview with Andrew Ross Sorkin of the Times, for instance.

Alex Karp (34:58)

Okay, so I want to ask you.

Michael Steinberger (34:59)

This, and it's a Trump question.

Alex Karp (35:01)

There's a view, and I'm curious where you land.

Michael Steinberger (35:04)

Do you think that President Trump is a fascist?

Alex Karp (35:06)

Of course not. I think that's stupid, honestly. And you know what? Again, you can go all day on this stuff. It's honestly idiotic.

Michael Steinberger (35:14)

He said that any suggestion that Trump is a fascist is just stupid.

Alex Karp (35:18)

I grew up half my life in Germany. I spent time with actual fascists. I went and talked to lots of former Nazis. We have a democratic society. And, you know, he won in a landslide. I don't.

Natalie Kitroev (35:33)

But did you ask him at all about the rise of this anti Semitic wing of the far right? I'm thinking specifically in this case of Nick Fuentes, the white nationalist, who is apparently quite popular with young conservative men in particular.

Michael Steinberger (35:49)

Yes, we've discussed it, and he has admitted to being concerned about it. And I think this goes some way to explaining why he is so ardently behind Donald Trump, because, again, he fears that if Trump doesn't deliver on his campaign promises, particularly on immigration, that what's going to come after this could be even worse, that a demagogue in the mold of a Fuentes or someone like that could come to power, which Karp thinks would be very bad for the country. And I think he sees the work that Palantir is doing with the Trump administration as preventive in nature in some sense.

Natalie Kitroev (36:26)

Just to step back, Michael, you've described this evolution of Karp, a guy who grew up as a progressive and is now out defending Trump on some of his most aggressive policies. I'm wondering how we should think about the fact that Karp is running a company that essentially enables Trump's work. Do you think that Karp can accurately assess when the Trump administration's policies potentially tip over into violating people's civil liberties or potentially become more authoritarian in nature. Like, do you think Karp would be willing to do basically anything the Trump administration wants his company to do or not?

Michael Steinberger (37:14)

I don't know the answer to that, which is kind of unsettling. I've been talking to him for six years. He expresses very strongly held views on a range of issues, but he has not said to me in private, nor has he said publicly, what his red lines are, what things the Trump administration might do that would cause him to reconsider Palantir's work with the administration. I understand why he doesn't want to say that, because Palantir is a major government contractor, and it's not in Karp's interest to tell the world what things, for instance, ICE might do that would cause Palantir to reconsider its work with ice. But what this really comes down to in a lot of ways, is, do you trust Alex Karp's judgment about the moment we're in? This is someone who is a scholar of fascism. He knows what it looks and sounds like, and he's basically asking us to believe that what we're seeing here is not what many people fear, that this is not incipient authoritarianism, that the Trump presidency is nothing out of the ordinary. And the question is, do you take his word for it? And so this really does come down, in a certain sense to how much you trust Alex Karp, how much do you trust his assessment of Donald Trump and of the policies the Trump administration is pursuing? Karp has said very candidly that Palantir's technology can be used for good or bad if abuse has happened. You trust Alex Karp to pull the plug on the work that Palantir is doing with government agencies. And do you trust him to correctly assess when that's happening? And do you trust him ultimately to be willing to sacrifice Palantir's business interest in defense of those values?

Natalie Kitroev (39:08)

Well, Michael, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Michael Steinberger (39:12)

Thank you for having me.

Natalie Kitroev (39:29)

We'll be right back.

Michael Steinberger (39:32)

This podcast is supported by Meta.

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Meta's AI infrastructure is bringing jobs to local communities like Las Lunas, New Mexico. Phil, who grew up in Las Lunas, has seen the positive impact that Meta's ongoing $600 billion investment in American jobs and infrastructure will bring.

Phil (Meta Data Center Employee) (39:50)

I had to travel for work, missing moments I can't get back. Then Meta opened a data center and brought new jobs. Now I don't worry about missing out anymore.

Meta Advertiser (39:59)

Learn more about Meta's investment@meta.com buildingamerica.

Michael Steinberger (40:05)

If.

Podcast Announcer (40:05)

You find yourself bewildered by this moment where there's so much reason for despair and so much reason to hope all at the same time, let me say I hear you. I'm Ezra Klein from New York Times Opinion, host of the Ezra Klein show, and for me the best way to beat back that bewildered feeling is to talk it out with the people who have ideas and frameworks for making sense of it. There is going to be plenty to talk about. You can find the Ezra Klein show wherever you get your podcasts.

Natalie Kitroev (40:38)

Here's what else you need to know today. Nick Reiner, the son of the Hollywood director Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner, has been arrested on suspicion of murdering his parents, the police said on Monday. The couple were found dead in their Los Angeles home. On Sunday afternoon, two people briefed on the case said they'd been stabbed to death. Rob Reiner directed a series of iconic and beloved films, including this Spinal Tap, the Princess Bride and When Harry met Sally. Michelle Singerreiner was a photographer and later a producer. Their 32 year old son Nick had spoken out over the years about his struggles with drug abuse and bouts of homelessness. The police said he's being held without bail. Today's episode was produced by by Caitlin o', Keefe, Ricky Novetsky and Stella Tan. It was edited by Lisa Chow. Fact Checked by Susan Lee. Contains music by Marian Lozano, Pat McCusker, Dan Powell and Rowan Nimisto and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Special thanks to Larissa Anderson. That's it for the Daily I'm Natalie Kitroweff. See you tomorrow.

Michael Steinberger (42:05)

This podcast is supported by Meta.

Meta Advertiser (42:08)

Meta's AI infrastructure is bringing jobs to local communities like Las Lunas, New Mexico. Phil, who grew up in Las Lunas, has seen the positive impact that Meta's ongoing $600 billion investment in American jobs and infrastructure will bring.

Phil (Meta Data Center Employee) (42:23)

I had to travel for work, missing moments I can't get back. Then Meta opened a data center and brought new jobs. Now I don't worry about missing out anymore.

Meta Advertiser (42:33)

Learn more about Meta's investment@meta.com buildingamerica.