Eric Schmidt (3:07)

So the planning for this operation really goes back several months to the summertime. This is when the administration is first considering what they called phase one, which would have been to strike boats trafficking what they believed were narcotics going to the United States in the Caribbean and later the eastern Pacific. But there was also a phase two that was less well known, but through our reporting revealed that the administration was considering a follow on phase that would use the army's Delta Force to conduct land strikes and ultimately an operation to oust President Maduro of Venezuela. About a month later, in August, the CIA infiltrated clandestine team of officers into Venezuela to start getting a bead on Maduro. And their job was really interesting. It was as spies. They had to keep a very low profile, but they were trying to figure out kind of what the spy agencies called their pattern of life. How does Maduro move around? Where does he eat every day? You know, what kind of pets does he have? You want to get an idea of the daily routine that your target, your potential target has. And so here these operatives are on the ground kind of monitoring stealthily the movements and the activities of Maduro. Now in addition to that, the CIA was able to basically get an informant on the inside, inside the government who could basically relay Maduro's location, you know, where he was going at any given moment. And that allowed the CIA and the military to also conduct stealthy drone flights overhead. So if he were to travel somewhere in the country, they could keep an eye on him.

Natalie Kitroeff (5:02)

It's remarkable what you're saying. The CIA not only had operatives on the ground monitoring Maduro, they also had someone inside who was feeding them information, a snitch who was telling them what they needed to know to potentially carry this out.

Eric Schmidt (5:19)

That's right, Natalie. I had one senior US official tell me that they felt so confident because basically they had, in his words, they had Maduro wired. Now that doesn't mean he actually was wearing a wire, but it meant in this case that they felt they knew his location probably pretty much any time. One of the hardest part of course is trying to find a target. And once you can find a target, then you can start building the operation, the military operation of how you go in and capture him. But once they had these spies in place and an informant in particular that was close to Maduro, some of the hardest part was, you know, was past them and then they could really work on the difficult task of assembling the military might that would do the job.

Natalie Kitroeff (6:02)

Okay, so take me to the operation itself. How did it unfold once they had all these pieces in place?

Eric Schmidt (6:09)

So remember, this all starts as the United States is carrying out. Special forces are striking these boats first in the Caribbean with missile strikes. And this is all aimed at, the administration says, at what they call the narco terrorism. That is, they've accused Maduro being the head of essentially a drug cartel and equating him as a terrorist, as if you would equate him with, say, being a member of Al Qaeda or the Islamic State. So they're building this force initially around that. The next stage is just a few weeks ago, they start targeting oil tankers. And these are oil tankers that are either empty tankers coming into Venezuela to pick up oil or tankers leaving Venezuela. Oil is a crucial component of Venezuela's economy. And so the administration was trying to basically choke that off the economy of President Maduro and increase the pressure on him to leave.

Natalie Kitroeff (7:07)

Yes, we talked to our colleague Anatoly about this recently. And the idea then, as you said, was to try to squeeze the economy to weaken Maduro by putting a stranglehold on his main source of income.

Eric Schmidt (7:20)

That's right. That's right.

Natalie Kitroeff (7:21)

The question, though, at that point, Eric, was, was the military part of this on hold, or was that still happening in the background?

Eric Schmidt (7:29)

No, the military operation and the option so that it's available to Trump is still building. They're still flowing troops in. And what we got is a tipper just in the last couple weeks for some very specialized planes are starting to come in. These are planes that are designed to jam aircraft. They're designed to basically shut off electricity in a major city. They're used for surveillance. They're used to bring in special operations forces. You wouldn't bring this military hardware in if you weren't planning to use it. That's what analysts were telling me. So it became a matter just in the last. Last 10 days or so, not if the United States was going to carry out a major military operation against Venezuela. And the President, of course, had threatened to carry out land strikes there. But when? And so the clock was really starting to tick. As you have amassed this giant force, you can't keep it there forever. And as Christmas approached late last week, we started to see indications that some type of operation might be imminent. But it turned out there was a horrible stretch of weather in Venezuela, windy and rainy, unseasonably bad weather, which would have been very bad for operations involving aircraft and helicopters. And so the window for an opportunity for the military to carry out this operation was extended. And so we were kind of on pins and needles for several days, not knowing, you know, if this was actually going to go forward. The president still had to give his final approval for this, of course. And then late Friday night here in Washington, you know, early in the morning in Venezuela, my colleagues woke me up a little before 2am on Saturday morning with news that there had been explosions in and around the Caracas area.

Natalie Kitroeff (9:23)

Wow.

Eric Schmidt (9:24)

And soon they were seeing on social media these great fireballs emerging from the darkness. And the city, this is a major city, of course, and it looked like the city was under attack. Then there was more video that showed helicopters, you know, flying in the dead of night. You could see their outlines clearly, you know, the profile of American special operations helicopters. We saw more footage from social media, what's appeared to be helicopter strikes against two and three major Venezuelan military bases.

Natalie Kitroeff (9:59)

Wow.

Eric Schmidt (10:00)

Very dramatic scenes coming from Venezuela. But here in Washington, utter silence, you know, from the administration, you know, and this would have been typical if indeed there was an operation ongoing, because the President and his top aides would not want to comment on anything while there were, you know, military operations underway. American forces were at risk. And until they were out of harm's way, this is typical of these kind of things. They're. They're not going to comment. So we had a very long several hours early Saturday morning until the president, just after 4am here in Washington, announced on Truth Social that the US had conducted a, what he called a successful large scale strike against Venezuela and its leader, Nicolas Maduro, who, you know, along with his wife, the President said, had been captured and flown out of the country.

Natalie Kitroeff (10:53)

Wow.

Eric Schmidt (10:53)

And then President said, stay tuned. President Trump, that is, said, stay tuned. We're gonna have a news conference at 11. That's in seven hours or so, right?

Natalie Kitroeff (11:01)

He says to everyone, basically tune in at 11. And of course, we all do. And at this point, as you said, we know Maduro has been removed from his post in this incredibly, apparently dramatic arrest. But we don't know exactly how this happened. So let's start there. What did we learn in the presser about how this all went down?

Eric Schmidt (11:23)

Sure. So the president kind of teased a little bit of this before his press conference in an interview with Fox and Friends.

General Dan Kane (11:30)

Was this Delta Force guys or.

Eric Schmidt (11:32)

He talked about, you know, the commando operation going so well.

Donald Trump (11:36)

They're the most highly trained soldiers in the world. There's nobody that has their talent because it's talent. It's not just, it's not just bravery. It's bravery. You have to have the bravery, but it's talent.

Eric Schmidt (11:48)

All the preparation of this operation that even the special operations forces had even built a mock house.

Donald Trump (11:56)

They actually built a house which was identical to the one they went into, with all the safes and all the steel all over the place.

Eric Schmidt (12:03)

A Maduro house somewhere in the United States. And this is standard. This happened in the bin Laden raid again in 2011, where they build basically a facsimile model of the actual house or target building they're going to strike. And they just practice it until they can basically do it in their sleep.

Natalie Kitroeff (12:20)

Wow.

Eric Schmidt (12:21)

So Trump teases a little bit of this in the Fox interview.

Donald Trump (12:24)

Okay, thank you very much. This is big stuff.

Eric Schmidt (12:27)

And then sometime shortly after 11 o', clock, he comes out at his press conference at his resort in Mar a Lago, Florida. And behind him are several of his cabinet members, including Defense Secretary Hegseth and Secretary of State Marco Rubio and General Dan Kaine, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Donald Trump (12:45)

Late last night and early today, at my direction, the United States Armed Forces conducted an extraordinary military operation in the capital of Venezuela.

Eric Schmidt (13:02)

And the President goes on to kind of describe this operation and what had happened.

Donald Trump (13:06)

It was dark. The lights of Caracas were largely turned off due to a certain expertise that we have. It was dark and it was deadly.

Eric Schmidt (13:24)

And then General Kane, who's a four star Air Force general and most almost important, his previous job was as the military's liaison, the Central Intelligence Agency.

General Dan Kane (13:35)

This mission was meticulously planned.

Eric Schmidt (13:38)

General Kane gave up and gave a very detailed but somewhat dispassionate account of this mission.

General Dan Kane (13:44)

At 10:46pm Eastern Time last night, the President ordered the United States military to move forward with this mission. Over the course of the night, aircraft began launching from 20 different bases on land and sea across the Western Hemisphere. In total, more than 150 aircraft, bombers, fighters, intelligence reconnaissance, surveillance, rotary wing were in the air last night talking about.

Eric Schmidt (14:11)

How more than 150 aircraft launched from 20 bases in the region.

General Dan Kane (14:17)

As the force began to approach Caracas, the Joint Air component began dismantling and disabling the air defense systems in Venezuela, employing weapons to ensure the safe passage of the helicopters into the target area.

Eric Schmidt (14:33)

And then carried out this strike. That basically cleared a pathway for these Delta Force commandos that are being whisked on special operations helicopters to this safe house in Caracas where they know because of the spies where Maduro is holed up with his wife.

General Dan Kane (14:51)

As the helicopter force ingressed towards the objective at low level. We arrived at Maduro's compound at 1:01am Eastern Standard Time or 2:01am Caracas local time. And the apprehension force descended into Maduro's compound.

Eric Schmidt (15:08)

And he goes on to talk in various detail.

General Dan Kane (15:11)

On arrival into the target area, the helicopters came under fire and they replied with that fire with overwhelming force and self defense.

Eric Schmidt (15:19)

The commandos reach and basically have to fight through some of the security forces.

General Dan Kane (15:23)

Maduro and his wife, both indicted, gave up and were taken into custody by the Department of Justice, assisted by our incredible US Military with professionalism and precision.

Eric Schmidt (15:36)

But the Maduro and his wife basically give up without much of a fight.

General Dan Kane (15:39)

After securing the indicted persons, the force began to prep for departure. Helicopters were called in to.

Eric Schmidt (15:46)

And so then he talks a little bit, the general does, about how then they have to basically go back out again with a new set of helicopters that whisk them away, coming under fire, and that they come back out over the water and fly back ultimately out the ship, the Iwo Jima, in an operation that altogether takes a little over 2 hours and 20 minutes or so. And that Maduro and his wife are brought to this ship and then lady be transported to New York.

General Dan Kane (16:11)

This operation is a testament to the dedication and unwavering commitment to justice and our resolve to hold accountable those who threaten peace and stability.

Natalie Kitroeff (16:25)

Can you just explain how you can have the military carry out what they're calling a criminal law enforcement operation? How do you send 150 planes in these Delta commando forces to arrest someone?

Eric Schmidt (16:41)

Well, in technical terms, he's basically said, the Justice Department asked for our help. You know, they couldn't go in there on their own and do this. General Kane made it very clear that there were, you know, law enforcement agents with the commandos. They were basically there serving, you know, an arrest warrant. They were there to arrest President Maduro. They're not there to kill him like they did with Osama bin Laden in 2011.

Kayla (17:03)

Right.

Eric Schmidt (17:03)

And this is how they're going to try and justify this. They're basically saying, we are coming after you because there's an indictment in the United States against you, Nicolas Maduro, for implicating him in drug trafficking and all sorts of other crimes related to that. And we're coming after you as a matter legal principle. And that's at least how they're framing it. This is, again, it's a military operation, but done in the service of a law enforcement operation that will continue to play out.

Natalie Kitroeff (17:31)

They're saying this is not actually an act of war, or at least that's the subtext, right?

Eric Schmidt (17:37)

That's right. We're not at war with Venezuela. This is a very specific mission. They're not out to destroy bridges and dams and take down and power grids and everything else that we saw in many of the strikes in the Middle east and Southwest Asia. They're there for one particular reason. They want to go in, grab Maduro and get out.

Natalie Kitroeff (17:59)

So just a very well Funded, expensive arrest.

Eric Schmidt (18:03)

There you go. That's a good way of putting it.

Natalie Kitroeff (18:10)

We'll be right back.

Kayla (18:16)

My name is Kayla. My husband and I use his email address to access the New York Times. Each day we compute for who gets to do connections. Sometimes I log into the app and I discover that he's already finished connections that day. And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day. And he's like, I know. I just couldn't resist. You would do us a huge favor if we got to log in as a family with separate emails. I really think our well being as a couple depends on it. Thanks for looking into this, Kayla.

Eric Schmidt (18:49)

We heard you introducing the New York Times family subscription. One subscription, up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more@nytimes.com family.

Natalie Kitroeff (19:03)

So I want to turn to what happens now in Venezuela. What did they say about that? What comes next?

Eric Schmidt (19:11)

Well, this may have been the most stunning part of this pro press conference.

Donald Trump (19:15)

We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition. So we don't want to be involved with having somebody else get in. And we have the same situation that we had for the last long period of years. So we are going to run the country.

Eric Schmidt (19:36)

The president basically says we're going to run the country. You can almost kind of hear a gasp in the audience. It's like, run the country. The US Is going to run Venezuela.

Natalie Kitroeff (19:45)

So who's in power right now?

Donald Trump (19:47)

Well, we're going to be running it with a group and we're going to make sure it's run properly. We're going to rebuild the oil infrastructure, which will cost billions of dollars. It'll be paid for by the oil companies directly.

Eric Schmidt (19:58)

Yeah, we're going to go in there. First thing we're going to do is going to bring in, you know, the oil companies. Venezuela sits on some of the largest oil reserves in the world and we're.

Donald Trump (20:08)

Going to get the oil flowing the way it should be. As you know, it was just a minor flow. It was actually a minor flow for.

Eric Schmidt (20:12)

What they and we're going to improve and build up their oil infrastructure. So oil companies can sell oil and the proceeds can. Some of that will benefit the Venezuelan people, but a lot of it will benefit us, meaning American oil companies. But there are many, many questions from reporters in the audience. It's like, well, okay, but who's actually going to govern?

Donald Trump (20:33)

It's largely going to be for a period of time, the people that are standing right behind me, we're going to be running it.

Eric Schmidt (20:40)

And Trump kind of looks back behind him. He says, well, these guys will. Meaning, like Heg, Seth, and Rubio. And everybody goes, what? It's like, well, okay, he'll work with the current vice president.

Donald Trump (20:50)

So Marco's working on that directly. Just had a conversation with her, and she's essentially willing to do what we think is necessary to make Venezuela great again. Very simple.

Eric Schmidt (21:02)

Basically, she's got to either go along with things or we're going to come back in.

Donald Trump (21:05)

We're there now. We're ready to go again if we have to. We're going to run the country.

Eric Schmidt (21:11)

Right.

Donald Trump (21:11)

It's going to.

Eric Schmidt (21:12)

He's going to keep this very sizable American force in the region, not necessarily in Venezuela itself, because the troops have left after this operation. But he kind of holds that out as a threat, that if the Venezuelan leaders that are kind of being installed don't play ball, that the American forces may have to come back in again and straighten things out.

Natalie Kitroeff (21:32)

What he seemed to be saying, if I understood his comments in the press conference clearly, was the US Is not actually going to install officials to directly run the government in Venezuela. He's suggesting that the vice president of Venezuela, who was just sworn in as president, he says, is willing to work with us. Meaning the US Government.

Eric Schmidt (21:54)

Yes, work with the United States government. But there's kind of this implicit threat that if she doesn't or if she starts to stray, the United States might have to come back and there's a threat. Maybe we have to get somebody else to do our bidding there. That, yes, there'll be Venezuelans running Venezuela, but with a very strong hand from Washington, and these people behind me are gonna make sure it's done right. A lot of people just weren't expecting this.

Natalie Kitroeff (22:16)

Right, right. Certainly not from a president that campaigned against the Forever wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, for example, and made a political brand for himself of not being that kind of interventionist political leader that got us into these foreign entanglements that so many people grew tired of.

Eric Schmidt (22:36)

That's right. Or if he did intervene, like he did with the Iranian nuclear strikes, it was kind of a one and done. You're in and out quickly, and then you move on to the next crisis, this one. He's basically saying, we're going to own this thing and we're going to be there for some time, which is very different than what he's been talking about up till now.

Natalie Kitroeff (22:53)

And just explain what his rationale is for that, Eric. Like, what is he saying that the US Gets out of this.

Eric Schmidt (23:02)

I think, number one, it's oil. That seemed to be his underlying message was, you know, we're not talking about restoring democracy or getting rid of a dictator. Okay, that's nice, too. But the real bottom line here is this is good for America. We're going to be benefiting from the oil riches of this country.

General Dan Kane (23:20)

Mr. President, why is running a country.

Eric Schmidt (23:21)

In South America America first? That's how. When the question was, how is this supporting of America first?

Donald Trump (23:27)

Well, I think it is because we want to surround ourself with good neighbors. We want to surround ourself with stability.

Eric Schmidt (23:33)

And his retort was, well, that is America first. This is, you know, in America's interest to have a, you know, a strong presence in the Western Hemisphere, which, of course, is something he's now promoting very aggressively, and to have a much stronger American hand on the tiller, if you will, of the Venezuelan political system and its economy.

Natalie Kitroeff (23:52)

You know, there were these scenes we saw today out of Florida of the Venezuelan diaspora celebrating this moment. Obviously, in the eyes of many Venezuelans, this means the end of the line for an authoritarian leader who was accused of stealing an election, who has been ruling with a repressive iron fist for years now. So what has Trump said about what Venezuela said stands to gain from this?

Eric Schmidt (24:21)

Well, I think he'll make the argument that, you know, he's getting rid of this horrible dictator he calls a narco terrorist, and that, you know, now that the United States is going to come in particularly and enhance its economy, that the Venezuelan economy, which has been just under siege for many, many years, will flourish and the Venezuelan people will flourish as well. And so I think he's trying to make the point that, yes, this is good for the United States, but it's also good for your average Venezuelan to get rid of this dictator who's really done bad things to your economy.

Natalie Kitroeff (24:54)

Of course, the reality on the ground in Venezuela is a lot more complicated. There are still many members of Maduro's regime who remain in the country. The military is very strong there. Do we have any sense of how this will actually play out, how that, you know, matches up against what Trump is promising?

Eric Schmidt (25:13)

Well, certainly a whole slew of democratic critics today in response to the president's announcement, said, absolutely not. He has no idea what he's doing, and he's leading the United States down a very dangerous path where he doesn't have a real plan for the future here. And if the plan that he's articulated is unrealistic and it's sending all the wrong signals around the world, not only in Latin America, but to our, the United States, main rivals in Russia and China, and just basically saying, you know, you can go into any old country and topple the dictator just because you say it's good for the region and good for your country. So this has got global implications as well.

Natalie Kitroeff (25:51)

And Eric, what are the implications of the US Military being used as a tool for President Trump in this way so explicitly?

Eric Schmidt (26:01)

Well, and I think all you had to do is listen to the president and as he ticked off some of the military accomplishments that he's achieved, not just in this administration, but going back to his first term, and he feels very confident now in deploying the military both at home and abroad. I think what he now feels is kind of unbridled in his use of the military, not as a last resort, but as something he reaches for almost instinctively. Now, the president has always, I think, been reluctant to deploy force because he worries about getting dragged into conflicts. In his mind, if he can carry out these operations, they're tremendously successful. He gets big headlines and maybe even it gets at least temporary solutions to problems. He's gonna be very gratified by that, and he's gonna go back and use that tool again and again. Certainly on the part of his advisors, he'll just point to these string of successes and say, well, we'll just do one more like this. Look how well the last one turned out.

Natalie Kitroeff (26:59)

So for Trump, these may be surgical strikes in his mind, not long wars. But you're saying there are profound risks to him normalizing this kind of military action.

Eric Schmidt (27:14)

Yes, exactly. Normalizing the military action both home and abroad. And then, as we see here, he's extending that this isn't just a one and done, because he's now saying, we're going to run this country for some unforeseen period and he's going to use the military to back that up. You know, now we're starting to creep into nation building again. The very thing that he campaigned against twice now, he's not thinking about it in the way that previous presidents of President Clinton or President Bush or President Obama even might have talked about it, you know, trying to enhance democratic values and norms around the country or to, you know, raise up the standard of living in various countries. The president sees this, certainly in this, the way he talked about Venezuela as being good for the United States. It's very clear cut. These are economic gains that the United States is going to make, and they're going to profit off of this investment in Venezuela. He thinks of that in his businessman's terms. And I think that's kind of the danger, is that you've gone in, you've replaced this leader. He now thinks it's going to be fairly easy, just as you might install a new board of directors or new CEO. And you know, the country's going to suddenly Prosper under the U.S. supervision. And it's so much more complicated than that.

Natalie Kitroeff (28:41)

Eric, thank you so much.

Eric Schmidt (28:43)

Thank you, Natalie.

Natalie Kitroeff (29:01)

Nicolas maduro. Nicolas Maduro. On Saturday, Delsey Rodriguez, the interim president of Venezuela, delivered a defiant address in which she condemned the Trump administration and called Maduro the only true president of the country. But despite her combative tone, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the US Would judge the new leadership of Venezuela by their actions. And late Saturday night, a helicopter carrying Nicolas Maduro arrived in Brooklyn, where the deposed leader was taken into the Metropolitan Detention Center. When a police officer announced over a loudspeaker that Maduro had been brought into the facility, a crowd of demonstrators waiting outside began to cheer. Today's episode was produced by Rachelle Banja, Alexandra Lee Young and Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Maria Byrne and Paige Cowett, contains Music by Pat McCusker and Dan Powell and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the Daily I'm Natalie Kitroweff. See you tomorrow.