Podcast Summary: The Daily – Journalism, Interrupted: 7 Podcast Hosts on the State of the Media

Date: December 14, 2025
Host: Michael Barbaro (New York Times)
Guests: Amna Nawaz (PBS), Ben Shapiro (Daily Wire), Charlamagne Tha God (Breakfast Club/Black Effect), Stephanie Ruhle (MSNBC), Jon Favreau (Crooked Media), David Remnick (The New Yorker), Andrew Schulz (Flagrant/Brilliant Idiots)

Episode Overview

This subscriber-exclusive episode of The Daily features a special panel, recorded live at the DealBook Summit, comprising seven major figures from the worlds of podcasting, TV, and journalism. The conversation, moderated by Michael Barbaro, revolves around the seismic "interruptions" shaking the core of American journalism: political intervention (especially by President Trump), the rise of journalistic personalities as brands, and the technological breakdown of traditional broadcast media.

1. Should People Trust the Media in 2025? (01:18–06:00)

Barbaro starts by asking each guest: "Should people trust the media in 2025?" Responses are nuanced, ranging from affirmative to cautionary.

• Amna Nawaz (PBS):
  “Yes. We all understand why people don’t trust the media ... but I think there’s a lot of really good reasons for people to say I have a reason to trust this.” (01:41)
• Ben Shapiro (Daily Wire):
  “I’m going to say no ... People just don’t [trust]. And telling them that they should is not going to answer the question. If you say, should people trust a particular report ... maybe, but the media writ large, it’s too broad.” (02:09)
• Charlamagne Tha God:
  “Yes, no, broadly, no. But you should trust the media that earns your trust.” (02:39)
• Stephanie Ruhle (MSNBC):
  “Broadly yes. This is an extraordinary time for smart, credible, trustworthy journalism ... isn't it great Ben has the platform he does today?” (02:49)
• Jon Favreau (Crooked Media):
  “It depends on the definition ... as a consumer, you have to seek out a variety of sources to build trust.” (03:16)
• David Remnick (The New Yorker):
  “What’s the media? ... It’s incumbent on any commentator, any institution, any news organization to establish trust over time.”
• Andrew Schulz (Flagrant):
  “You should trust the media to serve their audience, what their audience wants ... No, don't trust them or trust them to just feed their audience what they want.” (04:46)

Notable Exchange:

• Charlamagne: “You know what you’re gonna get when you tune into Fox News, CNN, MSNBC...”
• Stephanie Ruhle: “I challenge that. You don’t.”
• Andrew Schulz: “Sorry, there’s a black man talking.”
• Stephanie: “Well, guess what? You just interrupted a woman.”
  (05:44–06:00; banter underscores the complexity and personal stakes in media trust)

2. Journalism Interrupted: Three Seismic Changes (06:19–07:51)

Barbaro outlines the core theme:

• Trump as ‘interrupter-in-chief’
• Rise of journalists as brands
• Technological change (the 'death' of broadcast TV)

He frames the discussion around these forces, noting:
“This assembly pretty clearly speaks to the interruption ... let’s focus on three seismic ways journalism is being interrupted.”

3. Trump’s Impact on Journalism and Press Freedom (07:52–16:56)

David Remnick:

• “If you’re not taking what Donald Trump is doing seriously ... you don’t see how this rhymes with authoritarian pressure on the free word ... The sum of these lawsuits, these threats, these pressures ... rhymes in the most serious way with what we’ve seen historically.” (07:52–08:57)

Ben Shapiro:

• “People make two mistakes about President Trump. They see him standing over the body of journalism and assume he’s the killer, not the coroner ... Journalism had widely lost credibility with the American people before Trump.” (09:08–09:50)
• He criticizes Trump’s lawsuits against media outlets, calling them “inappropriate” but insists that wider distrust predated Trump’s presidency.

Amna Nawaz & Stephanie Ruhle:

• Push back against claims of bias, describing the challenges of interviewing power and reporting under pressure (10:26–11:43).

Charlamagne:

• Suggests mainstream media protected Biden in ways it wouldn’t for Trump, reinforcing perceptions of bias (11:49–12:11).

Remnick:

• Points out Trump’s “enemies of the people” rhetoric, connecting it to historical, authoritarian uses of language (12:48–13:11).

Andrew Schulz (on FCC, comedy, and Trump):

• “As a comedian you gotta allow people to make jokes ... Journalism is more important than [corporate media] merger[s]. Prove you care about the media, not about money.” (15:34–16:56)

4. Corporate Media, Ownership, and Business Pressures (16:56–17:46)

• Ruhle, Remnick, Charlamagne: Discuss CBS’s internal struggles, owner influence vs. editorial independence, and the pressures large conglomerates face (16:56–17:46).

Remnick:
“If those people [owners] don’t see it in their interest or have the principles or backbone to stand up ... things go belly up.”

5. Loss of Trust, Audience Partisanship, and the 2024 Election (17:46–27:25)

Michael Barbaro frames the discussion about media culpability in missing “the coalition of disaffection” that delivered Trump’s 2024 victory.

Jon Favreau:

• “I think there is a critique of legacy media following the polls too much ... But people got the information they needed to make a decision. There’s a diversity of voices, especially on the right, that people can tune into.” (19:11–21:05)

Andrew Schulz:

• “We can't complain about the impact of legacy media while saying it's dead ... Now are people turning to other forms of media because they don’t trust it, because they’re more entertaining? Who knows?” (21:05–21:35)

Ben Shapiro:

• Argues legacy media errors often favor the left, which has prompted the rise of partisan and alternative news platforms:
  “If all the errors tend toward one direction, you start to question the underlying bias.” (25:46)
• Recommends listeners “listen to both my show and Jon’s show. Where we agree is probably fact; places we disagree, it’s opinion.” (26:13)

Stephanie Ruhle:

• Warns about algorithm-driven virality amplifying “fringiest, most incendiary” stories:
  “It’s the fringiest, most incendiary things that the algorithm picks up and pumps up ... what’s going viral is making us sick.” (26:49)

6. Technology, Fragmented Audiences & The Death of Monoculture (27:25–34:02)

On the end of shared realities:

• Andrew Schulz:
  “We no longer live in monoculture. We live in a thousand different realities ... People don’t even know the movie’s out ... TikTok is pure algorithm. It divided us into a thousand silos ... now you’re ratcheting up the rhetoric to try to get out of your silo.” (30:44–32:58)

Prescriptions for the future:

• Andrew Schulz:
  “In a few years we’ll start realizing the Internet also needs nutrition facts ... don’t take this as truth, understand this is fast food meant to keep me engaged.” (33:03–33:51)

• Jon Favreau:
  Pushes back: “Now we’re bringing the gatekeepers back ...”

7. Information Overload, Rage Bait, and the Attention Economy (34:02–37:26)

Shapiro:

• “Media consumption is at an all-time high. Are we happier? Is the country doing better because of it? ... I’m going to say something in none of our interest: everybody should turn off their fucking phone.” (34:33–35:01)

Ruhle:

• “That is about decency ... In politics or media, what you’re asking for is the same thing, decency ... We need a return to that.” (35:01–35:33)

Barbaro, Nawaz, Favreau:

• Discuss how “rage bait” and emotional triggers drive engagement, and ponder solutions—Sabbath, personal boundaries, turning off devices, emphasizing context and full conversations over viral clips.

8. New Responsibilities: Podcasters, Interviewers, and “Gotcha” Journalism (38:07–47:47)

Barbaro pushes Andrew Schulz on an interview with Trump, where Schulz let statements about the “Russia Hoax” go unchallenged.

• Schulz:
  “I don’t know anything about the Russia hoax ... There is definitely a separation between what you guys [journalists] know and what the American people know.” (40:14–42:00)
  • “When I hear there’s an investigation and then no indictment, it means there’s nothing there.” (44:22)

Ben Shapiro:
“The gestalt for most Americans is there was an allegation of direct collusion, and that wasn’t proven. So when Andrew agrees with Trump’s ‘hoax’ language, he’s not wrong about how people interpret it.” (43:16–43:19)

Remnick and others:

• Stress the essential difference between “gotcha” journalism and curiosity-driven interviews, and the need for audiences to discern context and standards of different media forms.

9. Journalism’s Core Values vs The Podcast Universe (47:47–50:03)

Shapiro clarifies:

• “We are not in the same industry ... My critique is of the audience, which can no longer tell the difference between the Joe Rogan podcast and a sit down with PBS ... The first step toward discernment is acknowledging these are two different things.” (47:45–48:32)

Amna Nawaz (final word):
“We have a duty to look at things from different sides ... to remove our personal biases ... that is what sets journalism apart.” (48:59–50:03)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Remnick (08:57): "If you're not taking what Donald Trump is doing seriously ... then you’re not watching and you’re not listening and you’re not being serious."
• Stephanie Ruhle (28:15): "You have to tell your audience the truth. The challenge is, if your audience has a particular bias and they don’t like what you say, you have to be a strong enough journalist that they're going to stay with you."
• Andrew Schulz (33:51): "We’ll start realizing the internet also needs nutrition facts ... don’t take this as truth ... This is fast food meant to keep me engaged."
• Ben Shapiro (34:33): "[Media consumption] is at an all-time high. Are we happier? ... I’m going to say ... everybody should turn off their fucking phone."
• Amna Nawaz (50:03): "[Journalists] have a duty to remove whatever our personal biases are ... we have to hold ourselves to those standards. I think that is what sets us apart."

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:18 — "Should you trust the media?" Lightning round
• 06:19 — Defining the three “interruptions”
• 07:52 — Trump’s direct impact on journalism
• 17:46 — Does corporate/legacy media still drive political outcomes?
• 25:46 — Shapiro: Why partisan media is thriving
• 30:44 — The death of monoculture, rise of TikTok-era news
• 33:51 — Schulz: “Internet needs nutrition facts”
• 34:33 — Shapiro: “Turn off your fucking phone”
• 42:00–45:00 — Schulz, Shapiro, Favreau: Russia Hoax, interview dynamics
• 47:45 — Shapiro: “We’re not all in the same industry”
• 50:03 — Nawaz: What sets real journalism apart

Conclusion

The episode features spirited disagreement and sharp analysis, with panelists pushing back on each other's assertions, offering personal anecdotes, and wrestling with the changing contours of media trust, technological disruption, and the future of journalism. The consensus: today's information environment is fragmented, trust is hard-won, and audiences (as well as creators) must be more discerning than ever about where their news comes from and how it is interpreted.