Matt Gaetz Calls It Quits

Summary

Podcast Title: The Daily
Host: Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise
Episode: Matt Gaetz Calls It Quits
Release Date: November 22, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Daily, hosts Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise delve into the abrupt withdrawal of former Congressman Matt Gaetz as President Donald Trump's nominee for Attorney General. The discussion, featuring reporter Mike Schmidt, unpacks the intricate web of allegations, political maneuvers, and implications surrounding Gaetz's exit from the nomination race.

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The Downfall of Matt Gaetz's Nomination

[00:28] Michael Barbaro:
Michael Barbaro opens the episode by announcing the unexpected withdrawal of Matt Gaetz from consideration as Attorney General, just nine days after his nomination.

[01:12] Michael Barbaro:
"After just nine days as Donald Trump's pick for Attorney General, former Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida has withdrawn from consideration today."

Unfolding Events

[02:29] Mike Schmidt:
Mike Schmidt explains that Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, publicly dismissed the forthcoming Ethics Committee report on Gaetz, arguing that since Gaetz is no longer a member of Congress, the report should remain confidential.

[03:00] Speaker Mike Johnson:
"We don't issue investigations and ethics reports on people who are not members of Congress. I'm afraid that that would open a Pandora's box because the jurisdiction of the Ethics Committee is limited to those."

This stance effectively silences the Ethics Committee's findings and prevents the public disclosure of the investigations into Gaetz's conduct.

The Impact on Gaetz's Nomination

[03:27] Unnamed Host:
The host highlights how this move benefits both Gaetz and Trump, as it keeps the potentially damaging report hidden from the public eye.

[04:10] Mike Schmidt:
Schmidt describes how Gaetz, accompanied by Vice President-elect J.D. Vance, attempted to garner support for his nomination among senators, presenting it as a routine confirmation process.

[04:47] Speaker Mike Johnson:
"This just in, a major announcement from Capitol Hill. The House Ethics Committee has voted to not release its report on former Representative Matt Gaetz."

Despite these efforts, the lack of transparency around the Ethics Committee's report undermines Gaetz's standing as a nominee.

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Investigative Reporting and Key Evidence

[05:14] Mike Schmidt:
Mike Schmidt discusses his attempts to access the Ethics Committee's investigation report. He reveals obtaining a crucial document—a chart detailing Gaetz's financial transactions with multiple women, including payments documented by federal investigators.

[06:15] Mike Schmidt:
"...it showed thousands and thousands of dollars in Venmo payments that Gates had made to them that had been documented by the federal investigators."

This evidence substantiates allegations that Gaetz engaged in sexual misconduct for financial gain.

[07:10] Mike Schmidt:
Addressing the gravemist accusation—Gaetz's alleged sexual relations with a minor:

"It does not show any payments between Gates and the girl, but it does show that Gates' friend, a guy named Joel Greenberg, who set up many of these encounters, had sent several hundred dollars worth of money to the 17-year-old girl."

This connection strengthens the case against Gaetz, linking him indirectly to illegal activities.

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Political Ramifications and Strategic Withdrawals

[09:40] Mike Schmidt:
Gaetz issues a tweet withdrawing his nomination, citing that the confirmation process has become a distraction for the incoming administration.

[12:14] Mike Schmidt:
Schmidt elaborates on the precarious position Gaetz would have faced during confirmation hearings:

"...he would almost certainly have had to testify before the Senate at a confirmation hearing. At that hearing, he would almost certainly have been asked, have you paid women for sex?"

This scenario would have forced Gaetz into a highly uncomfortable and potentially damaging position, further jeopardizing his nomination.

[13:10] Mike Schmidt:
"The larger argument they're trying to say is that Donald Trump has been constantly undermined by the deep state and the Justice Department. That's what's happening to Matt Gaetz right now. And that's why he has to be Attorney General, because he has to put an end to this type of behavior."

Gaetz's withdrawal reflects the complex interplay between political loyalty, legal scrutiny, and personal misconduct allegations.

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Implications for Future Nominations

[15:32] Mike Schmidt:
Schmidt draws parallels with another Trump nominee, Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense, who faces his own set of sexual misconduct allegations.

[16:56] Mike Schmidt:
Discussing potential replacements, Schmidt mentions Todd Blanch, Trump's former personal lawyer, as a possible nominee. Blanch's close ties to Trump and his role in defending the president in criminal cases raise concerns about the perceived independence of the Justice Department.

[18:52] Mike Schmidt:
Schmidt agrees with Jonathan Swan's observation that the controversy surrounding Gaetz makes future nominees appear less contentious by comparison, potentially smoothing their path to confirmation.

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Conclusion and New Nomination

[19:37] Michael Barbaro:
The episode concludes with the announcement that President-elect Trump has nominated Pam Bondi, former Republican Attorney General of Florida, as his new pick for Attorney General. Bondi is portrayed as loyal to Trump and more acceptable to Senate Republicans, signaling a strategic shift following Gaetz's withdrawal.

[19:40] Michael Barbaro:
"Bondi, a member of Trump's legal team during his first impeachment, is viewed as highly loyal to Trump and most importantly, as acceptable to the Senate Republicans, who will have to confirm her."

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Key Takeaways

• Matt Gaetz's Withdrawal: Gaetz's exit from the Attorney General nomination race was precipitated by the Ethics Committee's decision to withhold damaging reports and the mounting allegations of sexual misconduct.

• Political Strategy: The Republican leadership's handling of the Ethics Committee report reflects strategic efforts to protect party members and manage damaging information.

• Future Implications: The controversy surrounding Gaetz sets a precedent affecting future Trump nominations, highlighting the delicate balance between loyalty and accountability within Trump's circle.

• New Nomination: Pam Bondi emerges as a more politically viable candidate, aligning with Senate Republicans' preferences and internal party dynamics.

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Notable Quotes

• Speaker Mike Johnson [03:00]:
  "We don't issue investigations and ethics reports on people who are not members of Congress. I'm afraid that that would open a Pandora's box because the jurisdiction of the Ethics Committee is limited to those."

• Mike Schmidt [05:14]:
  "...it showed thousands and thousands of dollars in Venmo payments that Gates had made to them that had been documented by the federal investigators."

• Mike Schmidt [07:10]:
  "It does not show any payments between Gates and the girl, but it does show that Gates' friend, a guy named Joel Greenberg, who set up many of these encounters, had sent several hundred dollars worth of money to the 17-year-old girl."

• Mike Schmidt [12:14]:
  "The larger argument they're trying to say is that Donald Trump has been constantly undermined by the deep state and the Justice Department. That's what's happening to Matt Gaetz right now."

• Mike Schmidt [18:52]:
  "Objectively, whoever comes after Gates will almost certainly not be as controversial as he is. And that will make that person more palatable to Senate Republicans..."

---

This comprehensive overview captures the essence of the episode, detailing the rise and fall of Matt Gaetz's nomination, the political strategies employed, and the broader implications for Trump's administration.

Transcript

[Meta Sponsor]

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[Michael Barbaro]

Open from the new York Times, I'm Michael Barrow. This is the Daily. After just nine days as Donald Trump's pick for Attorney General, former Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida has withdrawn from consideration today. Mike Schmidt on the revelations and the reporting that doomed Gates nomination. It's Friday, November 22nd.

[Unnamed Host]

Mike, welcome back to the studio for your second recording of the day.

[Mike Schmidt]

Sure.

[Unnamed Host]

We had a couple of hours ago finished recording a roundtable with four of our colleagues, including you and Katie Edmondson, Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan, literally. We finished, we said thank you. We walked out of this room and we learned that Matt Gaetz was withdrawing as Trump's pick for Attorney General because that piece of information rendered our entire conversation out of date.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct.

[Unnamed Host]

So we want to thank them for their work, which will never be aired, and thank you for sticking around to tell us the rest of this story.

[Mike Schmidt]

Let's go.

[Unnamed Host]

Okay, so at the start of this week, the question which we had posed in an episode of the Daily about Matt Gaetz was whether we were gonna see the results of a House ethics investigation into his alleged sexual misconduct, including allegedly sex with a minor and his alleged drug use. And Mike, one of the first things that happened after our episode ran was that the Republican speaker of the House weighed in on that question. Just start the clock there.

[Mike Schmidt]

So Speaker Johnson came out and said, I don't think this report should be released. The Ethics Committee had looked at a range of his different conduct, and they looked like they were coming to the end of their investigation and they were going to be putting a report out about what they found. But the argument that Republicans were making that because Gates had stepped down because he's no longer a member of Congress, the committee should not release the report.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

We don't issue investigations and ethics reports on people who are not members of Congress. I'm afraid that that would open a Pandora's box because the jurisdiction of the Ethics Committee is limited to those.

[Unnamed Host]

Right. And that's the argument that Speaker Mike Johnson puts forward. He says, not a member of the House, not subject to this report ever becoming public. End of discussion.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Correct. And I think this would be a breach of protocol that could be dangerous for us going forward in the future.

[Unnamed Host]

Which is of course a victory for Gates and for Trump who's putting him up for ag. And meanwhile, with this report locked up in a cabinet somewhere on Capitol Hill, Trump calling in his number two Vice President elect, J.D. vance, to nudge his soon to be former colleagues, the Ohio senator with Gaetz.

[Michael Barbaro]

And at his side, J.D.

[Unnamed Host]

Vance, the now Vice President elect shows up on Capitol Hill with Matt Gaetz in tow to, it seemed, start drumming up support for a potential Senate confirmation.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

It's been going great.

[Mike Schmidt]

Senator's been giving me a lot of good advice.

[Unnamed Host]

I'm looking forward to a hearing.

[Mike Schmidt]

Folks have been as far as it went for the Trump. They were moving ahead with their nomination. They were taking their nominee up to Capitol Hill, parading him before senators and trying to get him confirmed.

[Unnamed Host]

Right. Trying to make this in a sense as normal a ritual as has ever happened with somebody up for a big job in Washington.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

This just in, a major announcement from Capitol Hill. The House Ethics Committee has voted to not release its report on former Representative Matt Gaetz.

[Mike Schmidt]

And in another positive sign for Gates, the Ethics Committee decides not to release a copy of the report.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Democrats on the committee are furious, saying.

[Mike Schmidt]

They want the report out, but the Republicans refused.

[Unnamed Host]

So that's where we are as of Wednesday afternoon, early evening, I believe. And that, Mike, is where you, as you frequently do in these moments, enter the story with your reporting. So just describe what happened.

[Mike Schmidt]

So I really wanted to get my hands on the ethics investigation report.

[Unnamed Host]

You and every other journalist.

[Mike Schmidt]

Yeah, but I thought that was going to be really hard. But I knew that there had been a three year long Justice Department investigation that looked at whether Gates should be charged for having sex with a 17 year old girl who was paid for. In the course of my reporting, I learned that the Ethics Committee had obtained a range of information and documentation from that investigation. So my thought was, could I get my hands on some of the evidence the committee had obtained? In the course of that, I got my hands on a document that federal investigators had created as they were looking at Gates. And that document was a chart, a bunch of different faces of people, including Gates and the women. And it's lines going from Gates to the women with arrows and dollar figures.

[Unnamed Host]

Right.

[Mike Schmidt]

And when you step back and take a look at it, it's an incredible web and shows the great detail that the investigators went to to try and understand what Gates was doing and who he was sending money to. And it was significant because the women had testified to the Ethics Committee that they had had sex with Gaetz for money. And this document backed that up because it showed thousands and thousands of dollars in Venmo payments that Gates had made to them that had been documented by the federal investigators.

[Unnamed Host]

What, if anything, does this document say about the most serious of the accusations that have been made against Gates, which is that he had sex with an underage girl?

[Mike Schmidt]

It does not show any payments between Gates and the girl, but it does show that Gates friend, a guy named Joel Greenberg, who set up many of these encounters, had sent several hundred dollars worth of money to the 17 year old girl. And that was significant because it appeared to back up what Greenberg had told investigators.

[Unnamed Host]

Which is what?

[Mike Schmidt]

That he and Gates both had sex with the 17 year old girl for money.

[Unnamed Host]

It seems worth saying this document is residing in a House ethics report, correct me if I'm wrong, that the speaker of the House and the Republicans on the Ethics Committee have decided that the public should not see, even as it considers Matt Gaetz to be the lead law enforcement official of the United States.

[Mike Schmidt]

We don't know if the actual chart is in the final version of the report, but we know that this is what the Ethics Committee had obtained during their investigation as they were trying to get to the bottom of the allegations.

[Unnamed Host]

I was quite struck by what Gates said when he learned, and those around him learned that you had this document, Mike. And the response, and I want you to kind of translate it for us, is that you possessing this document is why the country needed Matt Gaetz as Attorney General.

[Mike Schmidt]

They accused the Justice Department of leaking the document. And they said the department had investigated Gates for several years, they never charged him, and were essentially now using it to undermine him. And it was that type of action, that type of politicalization of investigative work that Gates needed to come into the department to take care of. The larger argument they're trying to say is that Donald Trump has been constantly undermined by the deep state and the Justice Department. That's what's happening to Matt Gaetz right now. And that's why he has to be Attorney General, because he has to put an end to this type of behavior.

[Unnamed Host]

So all of this ends up being the backdrop as we enter Thursday, the day we are sitting here talking, and the day in which Matt Gaetz, right after we finished recording our roundtable, sends out a tweet.

[Mike Schmidt]

He basically says that his confirmation is becoming an unnecessary distraction for the incoming Trump administration. And while he had great meetings on Capitol Hill with senators, he is going to be pulling his nomination. And just like that, Matt Gaetz was no longer Donald Trump's nominee to be Attorney General.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Meta Sponsor]

This podcast is supported by Meta. Meta's open source AI is an open invitation. It enables small businesses, startups, students, researchers and more to download and build with the models at no cost. Which means more people can build amazing things. Because when AI is open source, it's available to all. And when AI is available to all, everyone benefits. Learn more about Meta's open source [e-mail].

[Melissa Clark]

Open it's Melissa Clark from New York Times Cooking, and I'm in the kitchen with some of our team. Nikita Richardson, what are you making for Thanksgiving this year?

[Unnamed Host]

I'm making the cheesy hasselback potato gratin featuring layers of thinly cut potatoes. Very easy, but it's a real showstopper.

[Melissa Clark]

Genevieve Ko, what about you?

[Unnamed Host]

I'm actually doing a mushroom Wellington puff pastry wrapped around this delicious savory mushroom filling. Arguably as stunning, if not more so than a turkey.

[Melissa Clark]

No matter what kind of Thanksgiving you're cooking, you can find the recipes you [e-mail].

[Unnamed Host]

Mike for Matt Gaetz to have withdrawn as Trump's pick for attorney general, the Trump team must have concluded that he couldn't win Senate confirmation at a moment when Trump is brimming with self confidence and reveling in his ability to force controversial Cabinet picks through the Senate confirmation process. So why exactly do we think that Trump, those around him, reached the conclusion that this pick couldn't get through, that it was doomed?

[Mike Schmidt]

This is the track that the nomination was on. If Gaetz went forward, he was almost certainly going to have to testify before the Senate at a confirmation hearing. At that hearing, he would almost certainly have been asked, have you paid women for sex?

[Unnamed Host]

Right.

[Mike Schmidt]

And that would have put him in the situation of, of either saying, yes, I did. Which would have created a whole storm around it.

[Unnamed Host]

Right. Because in theory, it might be the future attorney general saying under oath that he broke the law.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. If he said no, the Democrats would almost certainly say, you're under oath and you're perjuring yourself because there's all this other evidence that it indeed did happen. And the third option he would have had, which most lawyers probably would have counseled him to do, is to have taken the Fifth Amendment. So you would have had a potential incoming attorney general taking the Fifth Amendment.

[Unnamed Host]

Against self incrimination as he answered questions.

[Mike Schmidt]

Under oath before Congress about a federal investigation into him as he was trying to become the attorney general.

[Unnamed Host]

Right. That, as they say, is a sticky wicket.

[Mike Schmidt]

That's just quite something, even by the measures of the Trump story.

[Unnamed Host]

And no matter what Gates answer in any of those three scenarios, it would have put Senate Republicans in an exceptionally difficult position of having to vote against a Trump nominee or accepting, in this case, a Trump nominee that they were not eager to confirm.

[Mike Schmidt]

Well, at the very least, they were going to have to litigate whether the allegations that Gates had sex with women for money were true or not.

[Unnamed Host]

Right. And therefore would have forced Senate Republicans to choose whom to trust, Gaetz or these women.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct.

[Unnamed Host]

It does feel notable that Trump chose not to force this vote and not to force this showdown with Senate Republicans. He obviously made a choice here, and he said to Matt Gaetz, or at least someone around him, said it with his approval. That's it. I'm sorry.

[Michael Barbaro]

You're done.

[Mike Schmidt]

I mean, you don't see it every day, but every once in a while, you see in Trump's world where the line is, Trump puts up with behavior amongst his allies and people around him unlike any other politician we've ever seen. He allows people in that have counterintelligence problems that have been accused of a litany of different things who are under.

[Unnamed Host]

Investigation, you name it.

[Mike Schmidt]

Literally, like a buffet of different things. He lets all these folks in the House, but every once in a while, you get to see that there are some things that they will not tolerate. So when someone's nomination is pulled or someone is fired or they resigned, you get to see where the line is. And today we see where it is.

[Unnamed Host]

Well, there's a complexity to this line, and clearly, Gates's situation is unique. The number of women he has alleged to have paid for sex, the fact that one is a minor, the fact that he was picked to run the Justice Department, that all makes it unique. But we should point out that if the line for a Trump picked is serious, accusations of sexual misconduct, we now have another Trump pick, Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense, who is facing his own set of allegations of sexual misconduct.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. Because as the Gates story was coming into its final hours, a police report about Hegseth comes out that details accusations of rape against him. The woman says that he assaulted her in a California hotel room. He denies that that happened.

[Unnamed Host]

Right. He says it was consensual.

[Mike Schmidt]

But what we do know is that he later reached a financial settlement with her that essentially silenced her from speaking out against him.

[Unnamed Host]

And as for this question of whether this line applies to Hegseth, we are seeing that Hegseth is up on Capitol Hill with J.D. vance the same way that Gates was with J.D. vance a couple of days ago. And it seems that Hegseth's reception so far from Senate Republicans is pretty positive. So we'll have to watch that pretty closely. Mike, when it comes to the AG pick, there's now a vacancy, and there's already talk of who Trump might replace Gates with. And one of the names that seems to be under consideration is a former personal lawyer to Trump. His name is Todd Blanch. He represented Trump in his criminal hush money trial in Manhattan. What do you make of that?

[Mike Schmidt]

So if Trump hadn't nominated Gates to be Attorney general, what we likely would have been concentrating on is the fact that he had announced that he was going to put Blanchon as his deputy.

[Unnamed Host]

Attorney general, number two.

[Mike Schmidt]

Correct. And why is that so significant? The president would have been putting his personal lawyer in at the top of the department. So the department is supposed to have this image of independence and following the laws and the evidence. But in this case, you would have had a lawyer who had defended the president in a criminal case in which he was convicted. And in terms of the norms that usually govern presidents, that is something that most presidents would not consider putting forward.

[Unnamed Host]

A personal lawyer who they have paid.

[Mike Schmidt]

Money to and have an attorney client relationship with.

[Unnamed Host]

Right. And so far, we are not very focused on Todd Blanch. And to that point, I want to read you what our colleague Jonathan Swan said about the way that this has all played out. He said it in a roundtable that we have decided not to run. This is what he said. The controversy surrounding Gates has already served a purpose for Trump. Whether intended or not, it has made other Trump choices for Cabinet picks appear more reasonable by comparison. In other words, what Jonathan is saying is that Gates and all the controversy around him means that getting the next pick for attorney general through is likely to be much easier, even if they represent somebody who might be just as outside the norm or as loyal to Trump as Gates. Do you buy into that?

[Mike Schmidt]

I do. Because objectively, whoever comes after Gates will almost certainly not be as controversial as he is. And that will make that person more palatable to Senate Republicans who know that they're not going to have to figure out whether allegations from women their late teens and early 20s who said they had sex with Gaetz for money are telling the truth.

[Unnamed Host]

Mike, thank you very much.

[Mike Schmidt]

Thanks for having me.

[Michael Barbaro]

On Thursday night, President Elect Trump announced that his new pick for Attorney general would be Pam Bondi, a former Republican Attorney General of Florida. Bondi, a member of Trump's legal team during his first impeachment, is viewed as highly loyal to Trump and most importantly, as acceptable to the Senate Republicans, who will have to confirm her. We'll be right back.

[Meta Sponsor]

This podcast is supported by Meta. Meta's open Source AI is an open invitation. It enables small businesses, startups, students, researchers and more to download and build with the models at no cost. Which means more people can build amazing things. Because when AI is open source, it's available to all. And when AI is available to all, everyone benefits. Learn more about Meta's open source [e-mail].

[Unnamed Host]

Open hey, it's John Chase and Mari Uehara from Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from the New York Times. Mari it is gift giving time. What's an easy gift for someone like under 50 bucks in our gifts under 50 list? I really love this watercolor set from Japan. These beautiful, beautiful colors. It's something that kids can do, adults can do.

[Michael Barbaro]

I love that.

[Unnamed Host]

For all of Wirecutter's gift ideas and recommendations, head to nytimes.comholidayguide.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here'S what else you need to know today. On Thursday, the International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and his former defense minister, Yoav Gallant, accusing both men of carrying out war crimes and crimes against humanity inside of Gaza. The warrants could subject both men to arrest in dozens of countries and deals an extraordinary blow to Israel's standing across the globe. At the same time, the court issued a warrant for the arrest of Hamas's.

[Unnamed Host]

Military chief, Mohammed Deif, but the court.

[Michael Barbaro]

Acknowledged it was unsure whether Deif is dead or alive. In Washington, the White House forcefully rejected the legitimacy of the court's arrest warrants for the Israeli leaders and said it has no plans to honor them. Remember, you can catch a new episode of the interview right here.

[Unnamed Host]

Tomorrow.

[Michael Barbaro]

Lulu talks with a member of the group blackpink about her new solo album and the intense training process required to become a K pop star.

[Mike Schmidt]

I felt like we were trained to always present ourselves in the most perfect, perfect way in making sure that I'm a perfect girl for everyone.

[Michael Barbaro]

Today's episode was produced by Alex Stern and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Brendan Klinkenberg, contains original Music by Pat McCusker and Dan Powell and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balbaro. See you on Monday.

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This podcast is supported by Meta. Meta's open source AI models are available to all, not just the few. Because they're open source, small businesses, students and more can download and build with them at no cost. Learn more about the [e-mail] open.