'Modern Love': He’s Gay. She’s Straight. They’re Newlyweds.

Summary

Episode Summary: 'Modern Love': He’s Gay. She’s Straight. They’re Newlyweds.

Podcast: The Daily
Host: Anna Martin
Release Date: June 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this poignant episode of Modern Love, hosted by Anna Martin, we delve into the unconventional and heartfelt relationship between Jacob Hoff and Samantha Greenstone. Despite Jacob identifying as gay and Samantha as straight, their seven-year-long friendship blossomed into a deeply romantic and committed marriage. This episode explores the complexities of their bond, the challenges they faced in navigating societal norms, and the profound insights they offer on love and identity.

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Meeting and Initial Connection

Jacob and Samantha's story begins in an unexpected setting—a callback for the musical Fiddler on the Roof. Their first interaction was marked by Jacob's immediate admiration for Samantha's fearless audition performance.

• Jacob Hoff [04:10]: “I was enamored... I just had this, like, laser vision.”

• Samantha Greenstone [04:47]: “It was me.”

Their initial connection was described as instant and profound, laying the foundation for a bond they later describe as a "soul tie."

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Defining the Soul Tie

The couple characterizes their relationship as more than mere friendship, referring to it as a "soul tie"—an unbreakable bond that transcends traditional romantic definitions.

• Samantha Greenstone [02:17]: “...this thing is tethering you guys so firmly together that it is an unbreakable bond.”

This deep connection fostered a sense of security and intimacy, despite the apparent differences in their sexual orientations.

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Navigating Sexuality and Identity

As their relationship deepened, both Jacob and Samantha grappled with their sexual identities and the implications of their union.

• Jacob Hoff [06:11]: “...there was a lot of sort of inner turmoil with that having not fully come out to everyone yet and living the truth yet...”

Jacob's internal struggle with his sexuality, compounded by a conservative Christian upbringing, created significant tension in their relationship. Samantha, on the other hand, found herself questioning whether she was holding Jacob back from embracing his true self.

• Samantha Greenstone [22:50]: “...am I holding Jacob back from living his full, happiest potential in life if he's gay?”

Their journey was marked by moments of confusion, fear, and anger, as they attempted to reconcile their love with Jacob's need to live authentically.

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Turning Point: Coming Out

A pivotal moment occurred when Samantha reached out to Jacob to clarify the nature of his feelings, leading to an honest conversation about their relationship.

• Samantha Greenstone [10:19]: “...do you ever feel more than just a friend for me?”

Jacob's initial hesitation gave way to a heartfelt confession.

• Jacob Hoff [12:08]: “...of course I feel more for you than a friend, and I'm willing to try and see where this goes.”

Their first intimate encounter was a natural progression of their long-standing bond, devoid of awkwardness or pressure.

• Samantha Greenstone [14:23]: “...it felt like we'd always kind of fit together.”

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Challenges of a Heterosexual Facade

Maintaining a relationship that appeared heterosexual to the outside world introduced unique challenges. Jacob struggled with the fear of not being able to express his true self within the confines of their marriage.

• Jacob Hoff [25:22]: “...she feels like she's taking me away from being with a man.”

Samantha's attempts to understand and support Jacob often led to unintentional frustration and anger on his part.

• Jacob Hoff [25:41]: “...I had road rage. I would get in arguments with people...”

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Coming Out to Family

Jacob's eventual decision to come out to his father marked a significant breakthrough in their relationship.

• Jacob Hoff [27:08]: “...I just told him. And I said, you know, dad, I have to tell you something. I'm gay. And Samantha is my girlfriend...”

Contrary to his fears, Jacob's father responded with surprising acceptance.

• Jacob Hoff [28:10]: “He was actually so accepting, so... it went over almost too easy.”

This acceptance was instrumental in alleviating much of the tension and uncertainty that had plagued their relationship.

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Balancing Identity and Privilege

Jacob emphasizes the privilege that comes with their visible heterosexual presentation, a privilege not afforded to many in the LGBTQ+ community.

• Jacob Hoff [36:19]: “...we are a straight, white couple that can just go around the world...”

They acknowledge the unique position their relationship occupies, navigating both the benefits of appearing heterosexual and the complexities it entails.

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Redefining Love and Attraction

The couple offers a nuanced perspective on love, distinguishing between physical attraction and a deeper, soul-level connection.

• Jacob Hoff [32:42]: “...the label gay is so important to me because for my mental health...”

• Samantha Greenstone [34:20]: “...if anything, I feel it actually makes me feel more attractive.”

Their relationship challenges conventional definitions of love and attraction, highlighting that emotional and spiritual connections can transcend physical and societal norms.

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Conclusion: A Love Beyond Labels

Jacob and Samantha's story is a testament to the resilience and adaptability of love. It underscores the importance of honesty, communication, and the courage to defy societal expectations for the sake of personal truth and mutual happiness.

• Samantha Greenstone [38:07]: “...this love happened. It really was kind of a love at first sight thing...”

• Jacob Hoff [38:49]: “...being open and honest about your feelings is always, always the right answer.”

Their journey invites listeners to reconsider preconceived notions of relationships and to appreciate the diverse forms that love can take.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jacob Hoff [04:10]: “I was enamored... I just had this, like, laser vision.”
• Samantha Greenstone [02:17]: “...this thing is tethering you guys so firmly together that it is an unbreakable bond.”
• Jacob Hoff [12:08]: “...of course I feel more for you than a friend, and I'm willing to try and see where this goes.”
• Jacob Hoff [27:08]: “...dad, I have to tell you something. I'm gay. And Samantha is my girlfriend...”
• Samantha Greenstone [34:20]: “...if anything, I feel it actually makes me feel more attractive.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Modern Love offers a touching exploration of a relationship that defies traditional labels, illustrating that love's true essence lies beyond societal constructs. Jacob and Samantha's story encourages a broader understanding of love's multifaceted nature, advocating for authenticity and deep emotional connections.

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Transcript

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[Samantha Greenstone]

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[Anna Martin]

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[Jacob Hoff]

I love them.

[Samantha Greenstone]

Love was stronger than anything else. For the love of love and I love you more than anything.

[Jacob Hoff]

There's the love love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week we bring you stories about love, lust, heartbreak, and all the messiness of relationships. Now, typically, these conversations come from the Modern Love column, but today we were inspired by the vows section of the paper. And we're talking to a pair of newlyweds, Jacob Hoff and Samantha Greenstone. Right away, the details of their wedding so stuck out to me. Like, for example, the song Jacob chose to walk down the aisle to.

[Jacob Hoff]

I wanted to come down to the Phantom of the Opera. There. There's this moment, this woman just screams and it's like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. And I was like, that's what needs to happen as I appear in a mask.

[Anna Martin]

And then Samantha also wanted to put her own spin on the wedding.

[Samantha Greenstone]

I love Titanic. There was a point where I wanted to have a sinking Titanic on top of our wedding cake, but my mother and the wedding planner said, no, you want to have an event where thousands of people died on your wedding day. And I was like, I mean, it's also like the most beautiful love story.

[Anna Martin]

Clearly their tastes are aligned, but they're actually an unlikely pair because Jacob is gay and Samantha is straight. A lot of people don't understand their relationship, but they describe their connection as romantic and special. They call it a soul tie.

[Samantha Greenstone]

When you are with the right person, this thing is tethering you guys so firmly together that it is an unbreakable bond. And I think if people just did look for the partners, that made them feel secure in that way. I don't know. I think that it's like the secret to love.

[Anna Martin]

Samantha and Jacob have been together for over seven years now, but I wanted to know what does their relationship mean for their individual identities and what did it take for them to come together in A marriage. Stay with us.

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[Anna Martin]

Okay, Jacob and Samantha, I gotta know how the two of you met.

[Jacob Hoff]

We met at a callback for the musical Fiddler on the Roof. And so we both were sticking around for a part and they bring the part in for Frumicera. Who is this ghost in a nightmare sequence? And it's just like, dead silent. And then I just hear this through the. And I'm like, whoa, who was that? And what person could be that ballsy? This person literally didn't give a fuck. And I was enamored.

[Samantha Greenstone]

It was me.

[Jacob Hoff]

And I, like, immediately knew that was her. I just had.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, how did you know? How did you know?

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I don't know.

[Jacob Hoff]

I just had this, like, laser vision.

[Samantha Greenstone]

I looked like a cackler.

[Jacob Hoff]

Yeah. And I just ran up and I was like, if they don't give you that part, they're crazy. And it was kind of like a diva meeting a fan at that moment. Like, she was like, you know, thank you.

[Samantha Greenstone]

I needed just this, like, high five to let me know that, like, I feel good about this. So it was amazing to have this, like, reiteration that, okay, like, you did a good job.

[Anna Martin]

Samantha, did your connection with Jacob feel like anything other than friendship?

[Samantha Greenstone]

It definitely felt sacred. And it felt like something that I had never experienced with anyone before. But it was also confusing because I knew that Jacob was gay. So I was like, okay, I'm feeling this connection of that. Like, that's the best way I can describe it. I can't even put it into words. I can only put it into that sound.

[Anna Martin]

And.

[Samantha Greenstone]

But it was confusing because I'm like, well, he's gay, so can it be that? But it felt like that, yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Jacob, how would you have described your sexuality at the time?

[Jacob Hoff]

That was interesting. Internally, I knew I was gay and I shared that with select people. Who I felt comfortable with. There was still. I had not shared that with my family, you know, yet. And there was some avoidance and some fear of coming out. And there were certain people that I didn't feel comfortable sharing it with. So I kind of just kept quiet about things most of the time or. But. But to somebody like Samantha, who was my close friend, I would confide that in. And so it was. Yeah, there was. There was a lot of sort of inner turmoil with that having not fully come out to everyone yet and living the truth yet she comes in and, like, adds to the confusion because I'm just like, now, wait a minute. Now I'm like. Like this person. It's weird. Like, this connection is unique. And maybe it does go beyond just friendship.

[Anna Martin]

How were you sort of processing this friendship at the time?

[Jacob Hoff]

You know, the first indication that something was different? I remember. I think it was like the second or third time we hung out and we went to a restaurant together. And I remember, like, the excitement of getting ready and then going and, like, picking her up. And I was like, God, this feels like a date. Like, this feels the way somebody would be, like, giddy about going on a date with somebody. And there was, like, this weird nervousness in me and it was throwing me for a loop. But I never considered saying something or taking it anywhere further because I didn't want to disrupt what was going on.

[Anna Martin]

Were you attracted to Samantha?

[Jacob Hoff]

I was attracted to Samantha. But as I talk about the way. And I continue to talk about the way our attraction works it's such a soul connection and it's such an attraction to who she is and the person that she is and her entity. And it's not in that sort of almost lustful sense. It's not in that the body parts or the way I'm attracted to men feels very different than the way I am attracted to Samantha. And that her. Hers is a much. It's a very deep well. And the way I'm attracted to men feels very shallow and surface.

[Anna Martin]

Samantha, when you and Jacob were going on this maybe date, maybe not a date did you feel that same, like, nervous, fizzy giddiness?

[Samantha Greenstone]

Yeah, I do. I did. And I mean, like, he paid for my food. And it did kind of feel like it had this, like, special thing about it. But, like, it felt like I was, like, kind of being courted. But also I'm like, okay, I'm being courted by this friend.

[Jacob Hoff]

This homo.

[Samantha Greenstone]

This homo.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, I wanna ask, like, for you, Samantha, like, you're starting to feel what you would consider like romantic feelings towards Jacob at this time? Is that true to say?

[Samantha Greenstone]

Yeah, I think I was feeling these feelings, but I was also very guarded and really taking it slow with this. And then of course you add the gay element to it and I'm like, okay, this can't be that. But like, this is something. And I guess I'm just going. I knew that it was so special that I didn't want to mess anything up. And I was okay with having to be patient and seeing how it played out.

[Anna Martin]

I don't know. Did these feelings that were building for Jacob start to feel like you, you couldn't ignore them? Like you kind of had to act on them.

[Samantha Greenstone]

About 18 months into our friendship, I decided to text Jacob to ask if he had more feelings than just a friendship for me.

[Anna Martin]

How did you decide to do that approach? What was your method of sort of opening up this conversation? That I would say both of you had been pretty terrified to begin, you know, this. To look this thing in the face. What did you do, Samantha?

[Samantha Greenstone]

I literally just sent him a text message, which is probably like, in theory the worst way to do it. I was at a place where I was just like, I need to cleanse the uncertainty from my life, whatever that means. Even if he doesn't feel more feelings for me then a friend, you know, at least it's out there and I have an answer and I don't have to live with this anymore. I was just like, it needs to be purged from my being. But we knew each other so well that I was like, okay, this. He's gonna just understand what I'm trying to say here. So I texted him and I was like, do you ever feel more than just a friend for me?

[Anna Martin]

Jacob, I wanna switch to you right now. What were you doing when you got Samantha's text and how did you react?

[Jacob Hoff]

I remember looking at it and two very distinct feelings happened. One was, of course I feel this way. And I can't believe she's taking the initiative to say it and being bold enough to say it after we've both been beating around the bush for 18 months. And the other was immense fear that this was going to ruin our friendship because I wasn't going to be capable of having a relationship with her. And then I sent her a text back saying, what do you mean? Which was the stupidest thing.

[Samantha Greenstone]

And I was like, oh, fuck.

[Jacob Hoff]

That was like me just stalling. And then like two minutes later I'm like, what did I just say? Like, that's so dumb. And so then I said, of course I feel more for you than a friend, and I'm willing to try and see where this goes.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, what was your biggest holdup? I'd imagine there was maybe some fear around whether you could perform physically or sexually.

[Jacob Hoff]

I think I just knew that that was going to be a part of it. And that's where I felt I was inadequate or that where this thing was gonna fail because I knew every other aspect of it would work. I mean, we can hang out for umpteen hours and do everything else, but that was the one kink in the hose.

[Anna Martin]

That first meeting, after these text exchange, like, tell me, did you explicitly acknowledge it? What were the conversations that you had when you met up in person for the first time after all of this?

[Jacob Hoff]

It was like an elephant in the room that, like, okay, now we're gonna try it this way. But we never said another word.

[Samantha Greenstone]

Yeah. It was like we just went on existing the way we would have before I had approached him.

[Jacob Hoff]

We were. She was living with a friend at the time, and we were up chatting till late with the friend and hanging out. And then she had her own room there. And so we just went. And I just. We had platonically slept in the same bed many times. So we were just like, okay, we're like, gonna go to bed, retire like the old folks. Yeah. And it just. It just happened that way. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Even when, like, the door was closed and you guys were like, in the same bedroom together and you didn't say, like, you didn't talk about the sort of changed nature of the relationship?

[Jacob Hoff]

No, I think we were just laying there watching like a Marx Brothers movie.

[Samantha Greenstone]

I think so.

[Jacob Hoff]

And I think I just, like, leaned over and kissed you.

[Samantha Greenstone]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Jacob Hoff]

Yeah. And I think it just went from there. Yeah, it got raunchy from there.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, how did that feel? That first kiss?

[Samantha Greenstone]

The first thing was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this is actually happening. But then it felt like, so what were we waiting for? Why did we wait 18 months to come to this very easy, amazing place where, I mean, there, it didn't feel awkward. It didn't feel, like, uncomfortable. It just felt like we'd always kind of fit together.

[Jacob Hoff]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Samantha Greenstone]

Which I'd never felt before.

[Jacob Hoff]

That fear. I mean, all of that just slipped away in that moment. And it was just, like, normal. And it felt like there's no pressure here if something doesn't happen. Like, it was just. Cause it was us and our relationship.

[Anna Martin]

Was there relief? There'd been so much confusion about your relationship. Was there relief after this night?

[Jacob Hoff]

Oh, yeah, totally. Just the fact that it could successfully work was major relief. Now down the road in our relationship, things started to get more. After that honeymoon period. There became doubts and uncertainties and fears that crept back in. Cause I think just the longevity of it and the sort of, okay, we're moving to this phase where we live together and we're really creating a life together imposed a new set of is this something maintainable? Is this something that can really last a lifetime? And for. I think Samantha has said that she was worried she was taking me away from, you know, being with a man. And I was very resolved with Samantha, but there was always that fear that I would wouldn't be able to just successfully go through the boxes of like, getting married and having a child and all those things that come with a straight relationship. Like, my world was shook.

[Anna Martin]

After the break, Jacob tries to navigate the challenges of wanting to come out of the closet when, while in a relationship with a straight woman. That's coming up.

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[Anna Martin]

So, Jacob, after that night that you and Samantha slept together, did it change the way you were thinking about your sexuality? Were you like, I'm queer, I'm bi. Like, did this night change your self assessment?

[Jacob Hoff]

No, I didn't really reassess myself. I. I basically just was like, this is my situation in life. I'm in this relationship with her and she's my best friend and that I still knew my identity to be my identity. And I think that's where the confusions set in for both of us.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm. Talk more about that.

[Jacob Hoff]

Well, I think like I said, there was a honeymoon period and then There was a period where we faced a lot of doubts and were like, how is this working? How am I? How are we maintaining this? How are you fulfilled by me? If I'm a woman from Samantha's angle, I think. And it was daunting because I didn't have the words for that. I didn't have the A. I didn't have the verbal tools or skills because my whole life was, like. I say. I'm like. My default is like a brooding Marlon Brando or James Dean. Like, I just am like, no. And she wants to talk about everything and get it out there. And I didn't have the words for that yet.

[Anna Martin]

Was that the first time you'd had sex with a woman?

[Jacob Hoff]

Yes. I had had, you know, little interactions with women that were unsuccessful through high school and just trying. When I was trying to figure out my sexuality. And eventually in college, I got to a point where I realized, this is never gonna change. You think, this isn't really me. I'm not really gay. I can change this. This is just some. So, like, not a phase, but something that I have that if I concentrate hard enough, I will change this. And eventually there gets to be a point where you grow up enough and you go, this just is who I am, and I'm not attracted to women, and that's fine, and I'm gonna just accept that. But I also was worried about my family accepting it. I was mostly worried about my dad's side of the family accepting it because it was a very, like, conservative Christian upbringing. And they had said things. I mean, I went to a church where the pastor held up a petition to get everybody in the congregation to sign against gay marriage when they were trying to legalize it.

[Anna Martin]

What about your father, specifically? How was he treating you, you know, growing up?

[Jacob Hoff]

He had speculated. And, I mean, he would drive me to school, and I'd be sitting next to him in the car with my portable DVD player watching the Rocky Horror Picture Show. And he's, like, looking at this and making fun of it and being like, what is this?

[Samantha Greenstone]

What is this gay shit?

[Jacob Hoff]

Yeah. Literally, it's, like, the gayest thing ever. And then. And I'm like, dad, this is, like, my favorite thing in the world. And there were, like, these moments in childhood where, like, I distinctly remember, like, seizing up and him, like, confronting me about it. And so there were these really, like, definitive moments in my life where I'm like, I'm not going to be accepted or be normal or be, you know, the hotshot guy if I'm A gay. And I wanted to be the hotshot guy and have success. And, you know, that was troubling.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, Jacob, that's really painful to feel like there's this truth that you cannot deny. And you're surrounded by family, by a church, by a community that's telling you that that is the wrong way to be. And that must have been a really difficult acceptance to reach.

[Jacob Hoff]

It was a really hard pill to swallow. Because I think at that point I went into even a darker idea which is just like, this isn't gonna change, but I'm. Unless I'm so comfortable with the person, I'm just not gonna share anything about myself that way. So that was hard to just kind of live this closeted life to so many.

[Anna Martin]

Samantha, I wanna know from you, did the fact that Jacob was closeted to his family make you doubt your relationship with him in any way?

[Samantha Greenstone]

I just felt. I mean, the doubts that I personally had were maybe, am I holding Jacob back from living his full, happiest potential in life if he's gay? Because I don't want him to like, eventually one day just feel like he's trapped in this. And he wasn't a communicator. So I would try and talk to him about these things. And I don't think it was because Jacob did not feel safe communicating these things with me. I think Jacob just didn't know that there is a healthy way to talk about hard things with people. And there are safe spaces and safe people that you can go there with and that it's not going to end up in this disastrous place. Like, that's kind of the point of having a partner in your life.

[Anna Martin]

Can you give me an example maybe of a conversation that you tried to have during this time and how it went down? Do you remember a specific moment?

[Jacob Hoff]

I mean, there were over 100 of them. I mean, this was a weekly occurrence of. Maybe Samantha's saying something to me like, well, why does your family doesn't know about this dynamic? And what do they think? Do they. You know, it just kind of looks. Feels like we're living this lie without them knowing you're gay. And they feel like just like a normal relationship, which it is, but that sort of. That dynamic isn't fully being truthful to that side. And so she kind of probably felt like a beard at that point. For my family, where it's like, I can go home on Christmas and everybody can see me having a normal hetero life or even me just explaining the fact that I have no attraction to women was a major thing. Because it was just like, you know, she'd ask me, she'd ask me like, did I. Would I find this girl pretty or something? Either someone we know or someone in public. And I'm like, no. Like, I. I can say, hey, that girl, you know, takes care of herself or is. Is fabulous or does this or that, but there's no. Nothing a woman's gonna do that's ever gonna make me attracted to them.

[Samantha Greenstone]

And that was my way of trying to just understand. Cause Jacob wasn't like, fully talking about his feelings and like. And like, he hadn't found his groove of communication yet. So my tactic was like, okay, like, let me see if I can do it through real world examples. Like.

[Jacob Hoff]

And that then for me, translated into, unfortunately, a lot of anger. I would. I would be. It was like, explosive. Like, you know, she would ask me something and I'd just be like, I'm gay. Why don't you get I'm gay, you know? Or like, why don't you. How don't you understand this? And I would take it out in crazy ways. I had road rage. I would get in arguments with people at stores or anything. Because there was just so much bottled up crap from this, From a lifetime of navigating this. And, well, I can tell her, but I can't tell them. And they, you know, maybe this will change. And now it's not gonna change. And now they can't see I'm gay.

[Samantha Greenstone]

And I think I was worried. I wanted Jacob to feel like his relationship with his family was not based upon this, like, character and this idea that he was showing them. Cause I was worried at one point he would then start to feel like, well, my dad accepts this idea of who he thinks I am.

[Anna Martin]

Your family. Jacob saw you dating a woman, and they did not know the full truth behind your sexuality. And this led to a lot of confusion and a lot of anger, as you say, on your part. Can you tell me about how you finally told the truth to your family and what that experience was like?

[Jacob Hoff]

Yeah. Well, throughout the years, Samantha always said, I think you're gonna get rid of a lot of this anger if you tell them. And I was like, oh, tell them you're gay? Yeah. And I was just like, no, no, no. Like, that has nothing to do with it. Like, I don't care what they think or what they know or not know. And that's between me and you. And we go to Florida. Samantha stays in Florida to be with her family. I come back to La to work. And on the way back home, I get Covid. And I got like, just a bad fever and chills. And I'm alone in our apartment. And it's one of those sicknesses where you're like, wow. Like, I feel like I could die. Like, it's not. That wasn't that dire, but, you know, you have one of those, or you're throwing up or something, and you get that feeling. And all a sudden I thought, I need to tell my dad about this.

[Anna Martin]

And it's like, wow, what about that? Because it felt like. Because why?

[Chevron Advertiser]

Why?

[Jacob Hoff]

Brain confronting my life a little bit. Like, it just in. In that feeling of, like, sickness, my brain confronted maybe some of. Some things I would regret or some things that I. My life were problematic in my life. And that was. That just reared its head, was like, you need to tell your dad you're gay. The next morning, I called him and I just told him. And I said, you know, dad, I have to tell you something. I'm gay. I feel I am a gay person, and Samantha is my girlfriend, but this is just our relationship, and that's. It's different than my sexual preference. And he was like, okay. And he was a little taken aback, and I was like, dad, I was like, you had to have, like, thought that. I was like. I mean, I was like, I was listening to Cher my entire childhood. Like, how are you not thinking that? And he's like, well, I just thought that was, like, the music you liked and stuff. And there was definitely, like, some shock, but he actually was so accepting, like, so. So just like, okay. And it went over almost too easy.

[Anna Martin]

Jacob, when you came out to your father, you also spoke about your relationship with Samantha, which they already knew about. But I wonder, like, do you think. Do you think that because you were in a relationship with a woman, it made it an easier pill to swallow for him? Do you know what I'm saying?

[Jacob Hoff]

Like, yeah, I mean, potentially. I mean, if. If Samantha didn't exist, let's say, and I just lived my life, I think I probably would have just been avoidant my whole life. And Samantha, one of the amazing. One of the many amazing things that have come out of me by being with Samantha and knowing and loving Samantha is the ability to verbalize and confront things and talk about hard things and.

[Samantha Greenstone]

Something I'd love to add about Jacob. And I will tell you, the second he got off the phone with his dad, he calls me and he's like, I just told my dad I'm gay. And it was like a New person was talking to me.

[Jacob Hoff]

So much of that anger dissipated instantly. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

It seemed like the fact of your relationship with Samantha perhaps softened this news for your father. But then also what you're saying is that it was only because of your relationship with Samantha that you were even able to deliver this news. And I guess, like, did this heterosexual seeming relationship offer you some sort of protection? That. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the question is. I'm sorry, I'm having trouble.

[Jacob Hoff]

No, I think it totally did. I mean, I think it was the anchor that allowed me to open up to my family about what was going on inside. Cause otherwise it just wouldn't have happened.

[Anna Martin]

Mm. And Samantha, your doubt that you were or this feeling, this fear that you had that you were keeping him trapped in a relationship and not letting him explore his sexuality. What about that fear on your end?

[Samantha Greenstone]

You know, I think as I have seen the number of ways that Jacob shows up for me and his expression of love and just everything we've been through, I know that it's just deeper than just a sexual preference. I really think that once I understood that this is my soulmate and this is my person in life and we have just found ourselves in this dynamic and form in this lifetime, it made me realize, okay, this is. He's not going anywhere. I'm not certain about a lot of things in life, but I am certain that Jacob is in this forever. And so that kind of just went away completely.

[Anna Martin]

Mm. Jacob, why is identifying as gay, as someone who is only attracted to men, so important to you?

[Jacob Hoff]

Right. And this is, to me, the most important thing and why we talk publicly about our relationship. The label gay is so important to me because for my mental health, for the years of turmoil that I lived in, struggling to come out, and for the true definition of my sexuality, it's the label that fits. I'm solely attracted to men. And Samantha, being my soulmate, is its own star in another galaxy. And that when people say, well, why aren't you bisexual? Well, bisexual means you're attracted to both. And I don't feel I'm attracted to both. I know I'm not attracted to both. I've never been attracted to a woman and never will be. And Samantha isn't a woman. She's a soulmate and a companionship.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I wanna ask something that I think. I mean, I don't know. This whole thing is so vulnerable and sensitive and I appreciate you guys going there with me. I'm thinking about Jacob, how you explained that, you know, to you, Samantha isn't a woman, she's a soulmate. Right. And that's also how she's in this different plane than physical attraction. And I guess, Samantha, from you, I wanna know, like, does that make you feel, I don't know, any less sexual or desirable. Does that make sense to not be seen as sort of a physical. To not have that component of physical attraction?

[Samantha Greenstone]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. If anything, I feel it actually makes me feel more attractive. Like the way that I see myself through the way Jacob's eyes look at me and is so beautiful. I never feel more beautiful or secure. When Jacob looks at me, he's seeing me for me and my being. And I don't have any insecurities about him being gay. And it is important for me that he has that label because I know the work and the pain that he went through to get to a place where he could feel so comfortable shouting it from the rooftops. And I know sometimes people comment and they're like, wow, poor Samantha. I could never be with a man who's not attracted to me. And I'm like, if only you could see and feel what I feel and how attractive I feel and how much I know Jacob is attracted to me. And how amazing it is for someone to think that your being is the most beautiful being they've ever encountered, that it can transcend even their sexual desires because they've just found that there's this weight in gold in just a soul.

[Anna Martin]

I'm thinking about how it's really important to you, Jacob, as we've discussed, to identify as gay and part of a community that has faced discrimination, has faced violence, has fought hard for its right to exist in this country. And at the same time, you know, in your relationship, Jacob and Samantha, you will have this ability to move through the world with the benefits of a heterosexual couple. Right? Like having kids relatively easily, walking down the street without fear. How do you two make sense of that?

[Jacob Hoff]

You know, I consider that an immense privilege. And I don't take that for granted at all, that we are what we are. We are, on the surface, in the world. We're a straight, white couple that can just go around the world looking and presenting that way without people having to see the intricacies of what's going on. And some of the backlash we receive has even come from the queer community where they think we're trying to threaten that or say other people can have this dynamic and should force it or something. And we are in no way Shape or form, saying to seek out a dynamic like this. We believe we're one in a million, that this can work. So, you know, any marginalized community that has something come in that's out of their definition of who they are and what they've had to defend themselves to be in this world, they're gonna feel defensive about it. And whether it's a straight conservative being, like, no, I know that getting married to a woman and being a Christian and doing those things, like, that's the right way. That's worked for me so well and so many other people. And a gay person will say no. Like, I know being with a man and being. Being gay, expressing that, that works for me and does so well. Like, we all have these set definitions we're trying to defend so that our own life can feel valid. And we're not trying to threaten anybody. We're trying to add to the conversation and say, we're here too, you know?

[Anna Martin]

What do you want people to understand about your relationship, you, Honor?

[Samantha Greenstone]

I think in the most simplest terms, it's just a true love story of two people who fell in love with one another for all of the right reasons. This love happened. It really was kind of a love at first sight thing. And it should be easy. The origins of it all should be easy. If there's ever any work involved, it's just the natural work involved in a relationship. But when you know, you know, and we want people to know that love just can be that simple.

[Jacob Hoff]

Yeah. And I think just for me, it's being open and honest about your feelings is always, always the right answer. And that will guide you to peace and tranquility and stable relationships and all of that thing that we're all hoping to attain. And me finding my truth and being able to speak it, which was really the issue. It wasn't finding it. It was being able to talk gave me peace. And don't worry about the rejection.

[Anna Martin]

Jacob and Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your love story with us. I'm really grateful.

[Jacob Hoff]

Thank you.

[Samantha Greenstone]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

This episode of Modern Love was produced by Emily Lang. It's edited by our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by Rowan Nimasno. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Behemoth Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda and Paula Schumann. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an ad essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, We've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

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