‘Modern Love’: If You Want This Kind of Love, Don’t Expect it to be Easy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily - ‘Modern Love’: If You Want This Kind of Love, Don’t Expect it to be Easy

Episode Title: ‘Modern Love’: If You Want This Kind of Love, Don’t Expect it to be Easy
Release Date: June 1, 2025
Host: Anna Martin, The New York Times
Guest: Samaya Mushtaq

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Introduction

In this poignant episode of The Daily, host Anna Martin engages in a deeply personal conversation with Samaya Mushtaq, whose journey through love, marriage, and profound personal challenges epitomizes the complexities of modern relationships. Drawing inspiration from her Modern Love essay, Samaya shares her transformative experiences, offering listeners profound insights into the nature of selfless love and resilience.

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Early Relationships and First Marriage

Samaya Mushtaq's story begins with her aspirations of marrying a kind and emotionally straightforward Muslim man. Reflecting on her first marriage, she recalls:

“He was a good person. He seemed caring. There wasn't anything wrong with him. Sure, he's not emotionally complicated, but maybe emotionally being simple is a good thing.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [00:42]

Samaya married a man she met in college, expecting a harmonious and joyous union. However, as their marriage progressed, she felt an emotional void. Despite his caring nature, Samaya struggled to connect deeply, leading to moments of vulnerability that were met with emotional distance.

“Those moments where I was really vulnerable, talking about something, and the reaction wasn't like an emotional hug, and it was just... Those were so painful.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [01:32]

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The Decision to Divorce

During medical school, Samaya faced immense stress and emotional turmoil, which further strained her marriage. Attempts at communication and couples therapy failed to bridge the growing gap between her and her husband. The culmination of these struggles led her to the painful decision to seek a divorce.

“I sat down, had my back against the door, and I just cried. And that's when I think I really understood. This is not something that's sustainable.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [02:01]

The moment her intention to divorce became public was particularly isolating. Surrounded by their families, Samaya felt a profound sense of loneliness and shame, compounded by the fear of societal judgment and self-doubt.

“I felt so solitary and so alone in that decision. I can't trust anything I think or feel or decisions I make.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [05:21]

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Rebuilding and Finding Hope

After the divorce was finalized, Samaya experienced a sense of liberation and possibility. Embracing her newfound freedom, she ventured into the world of online dating with a clear intention to find a meaningful and supportive partnership.

“It felt like I had possibility again and that that was a good thing, that there was joy and excitement and anticipation.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [08:19]

Samaya sought a partner who embodied emotional support, intellectual connection, and a sense of home. Her criteria were clear: she desired someone who could be her emotional rock and best friend, capable of open and uncomplicated communication.

“I just wanted the person who was going to be my emotional rock.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [10:57]

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Meeting Mahmoud: A New Beginning

Samaya met Mahmoud, a fellow medical professional, through a Muslim-specific dating app. Their connection was immediate and profound, characterized by mutual respect, deep conversation, and shared values.

“He has this ability when he's listening to you to make you feel like he's really just taking it all in.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [16:09]

Despite initial fears rooted in her previous marriage, Samaya found assurance in Mahmoud’s genuine interest and commitment. Their relationship quickly blossomed into a marriage built on mutual support, understanding, and shared love for their community and family.

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Marriage Amidst Challenges: The COVID-19 Pandemic

Shortly after their marriage, the COVID-19 pandemic erupted, presenting unprecedented challenges. Working in their respective medical fields, both Samaya and Mahmoud navigated the chaos by fostering simple yet meaningful moments together.

“We talk about what it was like, the emotional aspect. We would sit outside, have chai. We would watch movies together. It was... just like this simple tranquility.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [22:02]

Their ability to maintain intimacy and support each other during such a tumultuous time strengthened their bond, laying a solid foundation for their growing family.

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Expanding Their Family

Two years into their marriage, Samaya and Mahmoud welcomed their daughter, followed by their second child two years later. Mahmoud proved to be a nurturing and present father, deeply engaged in their children’s lives.

“He's just so present with the kids. It's his biggest source of joy.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [22:45]

A defining moment for Samaya was witnessing Mahmoud’s unwavering dedication as a father, exemplified when he comforted their sick daughter with grace and patience.

“Mahmoud just takes Maymuna out of the crib and gets her cleaned up in the bath. And he's just super comforting... a visual of who we are as parents.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [23:03]

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Mahmoud’s Mission to Gaza: A Test of Love and Faith

The stability of their marriage was soon tested when Mahmoud felt a compelling call to volunteer in Gaza amidst escalating conflicts. This decision introduced profound uncertainty and fear into their lives, as Mahmoud's commitment to service intersected with the safety and well-being of their family.

Decision-Making Process:

“It’s like, this is what’s needed from us in this moment is to think outside of ourselves and our own nuclear families and to serve community and to serve humanity.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [30:48]

Despite the emotional and logistical challenges, both Samaya and Mahmoud mutually decided that Mahmoud's role in Gaza was a moral imperative. This decision underscored the depth of their commitment to each other and their shared values.

Departure:

The day Mahmoud left for Gaza was heart-wrenching. Samaya vividly remembers capturing a final smile before his departure, a moment symbolizing both fear and hope.

“He was like, are you taking pictures of me because you think I won't come back? And I said, yeah, yeah, that's exactly why I'm doing that.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [30:57]

Communication and Uncertainty:

While Mahmoud was away, communication was sporadic and filled with uncertainty. The intermittent voice notes and messages from Mahmoud provided limited reassurance and heightened Samaya’s anxiety about his safety.

“The mind will try to rationalize... But the truth is you don't know. You cannot predict. You have no idea what tomorrow will bring.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [34:26]

Ground Invasion and Final Mission:

As the situation in Gaza intensified with a ground invasion, Mahmoud’s mission became increasingly perilous. The reality that he might not return loomed large, deepening Samaya’s fears and the emotional strain on their family.

“The day Mahmoud told me, we're not leaving on the date that we are supposed to leave... Now we're actually at the point where he really might not come back.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [37:15]

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Enduring Through Crisis: Love Transcending Fear

Throughout Mahmoud’s deployment, Samaya grappled with intense emotions, balancing her unwavering support for Mahmoud’s mission with the innate fear of loss. Their relationship was further tested, requiring immense strength and faith.

Reuniting:

Upon Mahmoud’s safe return, their reunion was deeply emotional. Mahmoud expressed gratitude for Samaya’s support, highlighting the mutual respect and recognition that fortified their bond.

“He said, I just want to thank you for being so supportive of this. So supportive of me.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [40:05]

This acknowledgment symbolized a profound understanding and appreciation of each other’s sacrifices and unwavering commitment to their shared values.

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Reflections and Lessons on Love

In the closing segments of the episode, Samaya reflects on her journey, offering heartfelt advice to those seeking deep, meaningful love. She emphasizes the importance of resilience, selflessness, and the willingness to navigate hardships together.

“Don't expect it to be easy. This love is not convenient. So you have to get out of that space of wanting the love that serves you and recognizing that this kind of love is... you're in service. Your service builds a love like this.”
— Samaya Mushtaq [41:57]

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Conclusion

Samaya Mushtaq’s story is a testament to the enduring power of love, faith, and resilience. Her journey from a challenging first marriage to a deeply fulfilling partnership with Mahmoud illustrates that true love requires not only passion and connection but also unwavering support, selflessness, and the courage to face life's adversities together. This episode of Modern Love serves as an inspiring narrative for anyone navigating the complexities of modern relationships, reminding us that the most profound love stories are often forged in the crucible of life's greatest challenges.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Samaya on Emotional Disconnect in First Marriage:

   “He was a good person. He seemed caring. There wasn't anything wrong with him. Sure, he's not emotionally complicated, but maybe emotionally being simple is a good thing.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [00:42]

2. Pain of Emotional Vulnerability:

   “Those moments where I was really vulnerable, talking about something, and the reaction wasn't like an emotional hug, and it was just... Those were so painful.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [01:32]

3. Realization of Unsustainable Marriage:

   “This is not something that's sustainable.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [02:01]

4. Feeling of Loneliness During Divorce:

   “I felt so solitary and so alone in that decision. I can't trust anything I think or feel or decisions I make.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [05:21]

5. Liberation Post-Divorce:

   “It felt like I had possibility again and that that was a good thing, that there was joy and excitement and anticipation.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [08:19]

6. Desire for Emotional Rock:

   “I just wanted the person who was going to be my emotional rock.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [10:57]

7. Mahmoud’s Listening Ability:

   “He has this ability when he's listening to you to make you feel like he's really just taking it all in.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [16:09]

8. Mahmoud’s Presence as Father:

   “He's just so present with the kids. It's his biggest source of joy.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [22:45]

9. Decision to Serve Humanity:

   “It's like, this is what’s needed from us in this moment is to think outside of ourselves and our own nuclear families and to serve community and to serve humanity.”
   — Samaya Mushtaq [30:48]

10. Handling Uncertainty:

    “The mind will try to rationalize... But the truth is you don't know. You cannot predict. You have no idea what tomorrow will bring.”
    — Samaya Mushtaq [34:26]

11. Support in Crisis:

    “He just wants you home safely, by whatever means, however long it takes.”
    — Mahmoud in voice note [38:09]

12. Samaya’s Advice on Love:

    “Don't expect it to be easy. This love is not convenient. So you have to get out of that space of wanting the love that serves you and recognizing that this kind of love is... you're in service. Your service builds a love like this.”
    — Samaya Mushtaq [41:57]

---

Produced by: Sarah Curtis and Emily Lang
Edited by: Gianna Palmer
Executive Editor: Jen Poyant
Fact-Checking: Ena Alvarado
Production Management: Christina Josa
Theme Music: Dan Powell
Original Music: Alicia Ba Itoub and Rowan Nimisto
Mixed by: Daniel Ramirez
Studio Support: Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman
Special Thanks to: Larissa Anderson, Behemoth Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, and Paula Schumann

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To read Samaya Mushtaq’s detailed Modern Love essay, visit nytimes.com/podcasts.

Transcript

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[Samaya Mushtaq]

Love now and did you fall in love last fella? I love him. Love, but stronger than anything. Can I love you more than anything? There's still love. Love.

He was a good person. He seemed caring. There wasn't anything wrong with him. Sure, he's not emotionally complicated, but maybe emotionally being simple is a good thing.

[Anna Martin]

Samaya Mushtaq grew up hoping to marry a nice Muslim man.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I didn't really hear about marriage as this really joyful or emotionally connected type of union. It seemed like much more. You marry somebody that you have a.

Lot of shared characteristics with, you have.

Children with them, and you raise those children.

[Anna Martin]

While she was in college, Zemeya met that nice man at 21. When she was in medical school, they got married. But as the marriage progressed, she couldn't shake the feeling that something was missing.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Those moments where I was really vulnerable, talking about something, and the reaction wasn't like an emotional hug, and it was just.

It was.

Those were so painful.

[Anna Martin]

Samaya witnessed some really difficult things when she was in med school. She tried talking to her husband about her feelings, but he couldn't go there with her. So one day, after a really hard rotation, she decided it was easier to keep her feelings to herself.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

He was watching TV or something, and I just went into our room. I sat down, had my back against the door, and I just cried. And that's when I think I really understood. This is not something that's sustainable. I liken it to death by a thousand paper cuts.

[Anna Martin]

Samaya realized she had to leave.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I had separated, stayed with my parents, tried to go to couples therapy, went back, separated again. And then that second time, I was like, you know, I just have to make a decision, go through that tunnel of anxiety and fear and shame and get to the other side.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Each week we bring you stories inspired by the Modern Love column. Today, Samaya Mushtaq tells us what was on the other side of that tunnel of anxiety and fear. It's a story that taught her to love selflessly and in a way she could never have predicted. Stay with us.

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[Anna Martin]

Samaya Mushtaq welcome to Modern Love.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Thank you Anna. I'm excited to be here.

[Anna Martin]

I'm going to jump right in with you. When you finally decided to get a divorce, what was that like for you? Emotionally?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I think at that time it was definitely made harder that I just, I didn't know anyone who'd gone through that and it just seemed like such a u turn and failure and I don't mess things up so colossally. So to be able to acknowledge that not just to myself but then to have this be announced to anybody I've ever met and have them know it just felt so embarrassing and shameful.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me about the moment where it became real for everyone.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

So we're all in my parents living room. It was middle of August or something I think in 2016, their formal living room which is also I think interesting. And my husband was there, my parents, his parents and my understanding going into it was that this is where my husband and I were going to share this decision that was if not necessarily mutual but we both had aligned on but then it was more the parents in particular really trying to talk me out of it. So lots of questions from his parents, my parents and I remember my mom specifically saying he doesn't hurt you, he's not a bad person and his mother saying something about how, you know, he took me traveling to so many countries. It was like a case being made by everyone about why what I am deciding is wrong and how he's right and I need to course correct and I Think that's probably the peak of loneliness. I felt so solitary and so alone in that decision. And it was like, is my judgment off? Like, have I just been interpreting the last three years wrong? It had such an impact on my psyche of, like, I can't trust anything I think or feel or decisions I make. I can't even make eye contact with anybody because I felt so ashamed. And I'm looking at my parents rugged, and I just. I don't know what I reached into within myself. One little, like, flame left of, like, maybe I am right.

Maybe I just need to trust this.

Tiny shred I have left of certainty in myself and belief that what I think and feel and understand matters. And I just said, I can't do it anymore. And I looked at my husband at the time then, and I knew how much I was hurting him. I knew how much I was hurting everybody. And I felt like the most selfish and terrible human being. But I knew it needed to be done. It's like somebody has to call the time of death, and I just had to do it.

[Anna Martin]

So you made this really difficult decision. It sounds really hard, but I want to fast forward to after your divorce was finalized. Once it was real, how were you doing?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

It felt like I had possibility again and that that was a good thing, that there was joy and excitement and anticipation and it wasn't even for a different person. When I made the decision to end the marriage, it was never with the idea that I would meet a better person or have a better marriage. It was with the idea that I may be alone and that's okay.

Like, that is a better place to.

Be than the loneliness of being married in this marriage. And so it was like that just burst open and life could be so many things, and that wasn't scary anymore.

[Anna Martin]

I am so damn happy for you. I'm sitting there being like, you're smiling. I'm smiling. The possibility was not scary. It was exciting.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

It was exciting.

And then once I got on the apps, it's interesting because they ask you your marital status on these apps and. And there's a never married option. There's not one of them didn't have single. I had never married or divorced or widowed, I think was another option. So I had to select divorce. I couldn't put single. And so it was from the get go on my profile, it's right there, which, you know, I have mixed feelings about. On the one hand, it filters out anybody who's just not going to be interested in someone who's been divorced, but on the other hand, it's just so reflective of some of the stigma still that that's a filter.

[Anna Martin]

Which apps were you using in this sort of post divorce, starting to look around phase?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Regardless of my first experience, it was important for me to meet someone who was Muslim. That was just something that I knew was non negotiable for me and for the marriage I wanted and the lifestyle I wanted. And so I only went on apps specific to the Muslim community. And so there's, there's two. At that time they were called Minder, like Muslim Tinder and then Mismatch.

[Anna Martin]

It sounds like you were kind of, is it fair to say, kind of passively swiping during this time?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Yeah, I think it was a little bit more passive. It was just sort of starting to almost just start to think about the next chapter. I think that's really what it was about. Just what could it look like for me to find someone and be married again?

[Anna Martin]

Did you have a clear sense of what you wanted?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Yeah, I think the biggest thing was just I wanted to feel a sense of home and belonging and like this is my person, this is my best friend and that's what I wanted. I just wanted the person who was going to be my emotional rock.

[Anna Martin]

Right.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

And in order to be that person with whom I'm really emotionally connected, you know, I definitely also needed like that intellectual connection and the ability to just feel like I could freely talk with someone without it feeling so complicated and, you know, just so exhausting trying to explain everything or get them to understand the emotional aspect of what I'm saying. So it sounds really simple, I think, Anna, but it doesn't. You don't think it does?

[Anna Martin]

I actually really don't think it does.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Yeah, I just feel like so many little things have to line up to have that. Even though you can distill it down into one phrase, I feel like it's just such a abstract and complex and multi layered need.

[Anna Martin]

When did you meet someone you were actually excited about?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

So I met Mahmoud that fall. He trained in the same program as me. He was doing family medicine and I was doing psychiatry. Both of us were at UT Southwestern, so we were both residents at the same time. And he was this tall, hands, tall, dark and handsome.

Literally. I mean, he is.

[Anna Martin]

There you go, girl. That's all you need.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

He's 6 2, he has a full head of dark hair.

And one of the earliest memories now that I have of him, before I even knew he was Mahmoud, knew he was single or somebody who I would end up Married to. I just have this memory of him leading the evening prayer for this community iftar that we had on campus.

[Anna Martin]

So it's like, you'd seen him around. You knew that he was Muslim because he participated in this. In this group that you were also a part of. You, I guess, clocked him as cute. Like, what was the moment of first. I don't know. Like, meaningful interaction.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I guess the most meaningful interaction that I remember was we were at this event around, like, patient bias and discrimination towards physicians. And I just remember he was engaged. Like, he was reflective and talking about his experiences.

And so I just thought it was.

Really interesting that, you know, he was participating and had a lot of insightful things to share. But I still didn't know he was single.

[Anna Martin]

Right. Well, how did you figure out if he was?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

So I would sometimes activate my profile. Yeah. Deactivate them and just be like. It feels like shopping at Ross.

Like, you're just rifling.

You know, you're just, like, sifting. And there's just so much garbage. And, like. And then you find that one treasure. So anyways, I had not found that one treasure. And so I. I had logged off. And then I'm not sure what prompted me logging back on, but I reactivated my profile and I saw the guy from the discussion and I was like, what is.

[Anna Martin]

Pause down? This is kind of a dream. You have, like, a cute person that you see in the world and then you see them on an app. It's like, that is the. That is the confirmation to know that they're single. Like, were you nervous to swipe? Yes.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

No.

I was like, what are you doing on here?

[Anna Martin]

Oh, so you matched. Okay, so you swipe and you matched.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

And it was an immediate match. So he had already swiped on me.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me about the first time that you two met up in person.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

So we went for poke. It's funny because there's a couple details I remember about that evening too. Like, I was trying to decide between these two bowls, and he, like, knew right away what he wanted. And I'm just taking forever to decide. And he's like, okay, you know what? She just wants this. And so.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, wait, did you like that or did you not?

Because it was.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

It can go either way. I know, but the funny thing is, even now, I'm always like that with him. I'm almost like, should I do this or this? Do I want this or this? Like, I'm just like, that is. That is just so me. Like, I can just be so indecisive and so overthinking, and he just, like, moves things along. And then I remember when we were talking, he noticed something on the mural in the background, and we kind of made conversation about that. And I just remember that detail because there was this. I'm present. I'm present, and I'm noticing things, and I'm responding to what's happening in my environment. I'm responding to what you're saying. And there was a responsiveness that I really noticed right away and that I really enjoyed right away.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. You had this kind of inability to connect with your first husband. And I know this is early on in your dating, but, like, did he ask good questions? Did he listen?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

He has this ability when he's listening to you to make you feel like he's really just taking it all in. And really, it matters to him. Like, he's being affected by what you're saying. I mean, even the topics we would talk about, they would carry over from one time we met to another. Or he would remember something that I had mentioned and follow up on. On it.

It just felt like he was excited.

And curious about life.

[Anna Martin]

Did you and Mahmoud discuss marriage, and how did that make you feel?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Oh, yeah, he was. He was certain really early on. I mean, how early? I remember him bringing it up. Like, six weeks into meeting, he was like, I want to know where this is going and where your head is at. I think this is one of those things, Anna, where. To somebody who's not in our community, that might seem, like, really forward. Because, again, we're talking about a different construct. Cause for us, that's there from the beginning. And so it's like, is this heading in that direction or not? But for me, I didn't feel that right away. It just wasn't as straightforward for me as it was for him.

[Anna Martin]

Do you think you were scared to try again?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I would say that was the biggest part of it. I mean, looking back, I don't think there were major reservations. I mean, there was, like, a couple things about Mahmoud. Like, he could be a little bit forgetful or, you know, like, I remember he left his phone in the fitting room, and I was like, oh, my God, he's gonna leave a kid at the park. Like, I would definitely catastrophize these things. I was, like, looking for the red flags, you know?

[Anna Martin]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

But I think all of that was fearful. I think I was like, I have to be very vigilant of the things that can go wrong because I miss those things. The first time and I can't afford to miss them a second time.

[Anna Martin]

How did you overcome that fear?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I don't even. I think that's what makes it hard is like I don't know that I overcame it and then decided. I think it was like I recognized that I would have to live with it.

[Anna Martin]

You and Mahmoud decide to get married.

But that fear is still there.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Yeah. I mean, I remember feeling it right up until I said yes. And then it was like it was gone. It was almost like a weight lifted off. It was like, oof. All that fear about doing it and how am I going to do it? And it's too scary to do it again and I don't want to do it again because it could go south. And then I was like, I did it and this is my person and this is the person that I want every day to have with me.

[Anna Martin]

So Seah found her person. Their marriage felt strong, but then they're hit with several big challenges, one after another. How they dealt with them after the break.

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[Anna Martin]

Was married life with Mahmoud what you'd hoped for?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

It was. I mean in the sense that so some months after we got married, Covid happened. It was just such a chaotic and uncertain Time, but we had each other. And I remember we would still, like, go to the beach together. And we bought sunny. We bought some freshly caught tuna by the coast and made poke at home because things were shut down.

[Anna Martin]

You guys love poke.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

That's like a common theme, apparently. Yeah, we really do. So, yeah, we made it at home because things were closed. And it was such an intimate start to the marriage because everything was shut down and we really had to just hold on to each other.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. I mean, that must have been such an intense time to be working in a hospital for Mahmoud as a wound care doctor and for you as a psychiatrist. How did you continue to cultivate your relationship during such a difficult time?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

It was so simple. I mean, we talk about what it was like, the emotional aspect. We would sit outside, have chai. We would watch movies together. It was. I don't know. I don't know another word to describe it other than just like this simple tranquility.

[Anna Martin]

And I know from your Modern Love essay that Ewan Mahmoud are parents now. When did you have your first child?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Our daughter was born two years after we got married.

[Anna Martin]

And then your second child two years after that.

And how would you describe Mahmoud as a father?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

He's just so present with the kids. It's his biggest source of joy. I can just see it in his face when he's with them and they are so attached to him.

[Anna Martin]

Is there a specific moment that you remember seeing him with the kids and just being struck by that?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Soon after our son was born, our older child, our daughter, got sick. And I just remember almost like this dance, this silent dance of like, we knew our roles intuitively and who we are as parents by then. And so Mahmoud just takes Maymuna out of the crib and gets her cleaned up in the bath. And he's just super comforting, like, it's okay, Baba. He calls her Baba. It's like a visual, I guess, of who we are as parents. So I'm like thinking ahead about the next time she vomits and getting the clean sheets on and cleaning her lovey. And he's like, so focused on her, on my daughter. I've got the bird's eye view of everything. And then he's got the connection.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

You know, Samayya, I want to change course just a little bit and talk about something that actually wasn't in your Modern Love essay. But when we reached out to you, you told us all about it, and I think it's such an important part of your and Mahmoud's story. You told us that not long after you and Mahmoud had your second kid, you both had to make this really big decision. And it was around Mahmoud going to volunteer in Gaza. This is right after the October 7 attacks in 2023, and then the retaliatory strikes that Israel made on Gaza afterwards. There was this international call for aid workers and doctors to come and volunteer and provide care. How did the idea of Mahmoud potentially going to Gaza, how did that first come up between the two of you?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

He had briefly talked about it in terms of, like, putting his name on the list of volunteers, but it didn't even seem like something that was tactically happening with all the uncertainty around missions getting in. This is like in March. So this is the very early missions. And we only knew two doctors who'd gone. It was kind of like, theoretically, they're collecting volunteers for something that may or may not happen. So in my mind, it wasn't like, no, you're not gonna put your name on. In terms of the mechanics. I didn't know what that meant as far as, like, is this telehealth? And then I remember the day he got the call that there was a mission going in March. They need a wound care doctor.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

And my stomach kind of fell. But also in me, there wasn't like this immediate, absolutely not. I totally empathized with and also felt like, this is a call to go. And I could see the merits of going, like, in terms of the moral imperative to go. But then there's also the aspect of, like, I know the person that I am married to and that I love, and I know their sense of duty and conscientiousness and also their heart. Loving this person means loving these aspects about them and supporting their love for others. But then there's also, we have young kids. What is this gonna mean? Not just for the days he's gone, but for the possibility that he might not come back.

[Anna Martin]

How did he explain to you why it was important to him to go? Like, what was the personal imperative for him there?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

In some ways, I don't even think it needed explaining because, I mean, I was seeing the same things he's seeing. It's like indiscriminate mass violence on social media. You can't ignore that. Mahmoud certainly is somebody, again, with that sense of presence. Like, he's reacting to what he's seeing. And me too. I mean, I'm intensely empathetic.

[Anna Martin]

When Mahmoud told you he was going to go, can you bring me into that moment, how you reacted?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

It wasn't unilateral like that we decided together he will go. So I remember one argument that we had around it where I was just like, this is just. Just feels really selfish. Like, I understand your altruism, but we are sacrificed for it. And there was like, this anger in that moment. But I understand too, that that was also selfishness for me, because it's like, I want to keep this person for ourselves, but this person has gifts and tools, and those need to be in service of more vulnerable people who need it right now in the immediate. And my part is facilitating that by being the one who stays and by holding down the fort here so that he can go. And so it was very much a mutual decision. And, I mean, it was tough. You know, I was crying. And so there was that anxiety, certainly, but there was also. There was also kind of this acceptance. And I think this part really just came from faith. I really had to come to terms for me, in my faith tradition, that your time to go is your time to go wherever it is or however it is, but your time is your time.

[Anna Martin]

This thing that you love about him, his commitment, his openness, his humanity, the fact that he feels so deeply, something that is so at the core of your relationship to him, his relationship to your kids, and it kind of supersedes you and your family at this point. Like you said that you immediately regretted saying it was selfish, but how did you make sense of that?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I don't know if this answers your question, but there's this poem about Laila and Majnun. I don't know if you've heard it before, but it's like this classic love story. And there's this poem about them. I pass by these walls, the walls of Layla. I'm going to tear up. It's such a sad. It's such a beautiful poem. But I pass by these walls, the walls of Layla. And I kiss this wall and that wall. Sorry. It's not love of the walls that has taken my heart, but the person who dwells within them. So I think for me, it was loving. The thing that Mahmud loves.

[Anna Martin]

And what is that thing that you had to grow to love that he loves, too?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I think loving humanity, loving service. These circumstances are so dire that this is just what's needed from us in this moment is to think outside of ourselves and our own nuclear families and to serve community and to serve humanity. And I think Mahmoud, his ability to be of service in that way, it permeates. And so it kind of enabled that, too, in me.

[Anna Martin]

Can you tell me about the day that Mahmoud leaves for Gaza. What was that like?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Yeah, that was a hard day. Yeah, that was a really hard day. There's a moment I remember really distinctly. I was taking pictures of him with the kids, and he took Maymuna out on the water table in the side yard, and I was taking pictures of them through the window. And I'm terrible at taking photos. He's the one who remembers his presence. You know, he's like, I gotta capture this moment. So he's the one that takes the pictures. And I always forget. And he was like, are you taking pictures of me because you think I won't come back? And I said, yeah, yeah, that's exactly why I'm doing that. We took him to the airport, and I remember, you know, he had his bag stacked up, and I was like, smile. I just wanted the last picture I took of him to be smiling.

[Anna Martin]

What was your communication like with him while he was away?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I didn't know what to expect. And it was really spotty. There was very little synchronous communication. So there was WhatsApp texts, and there was voice notes, and he would send daily updates of the things he saw.

[Mahmoud]

Yeah, so there's airstrikes kind of close by, but I guess it seems like. Because the biggest one that I felt was a kilometer away. So these are probably maybe a kilometer.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

And a half, his reaction to the things he saw.

[Mahmoud]

But that one day felt like the whole hospital just, like, was shaking and everything turned off, and it was just a huge, huge airstrike. So it was kind of. I was just, you know, just sad about that. And then maybe about an hour later.

[Anna Martin]

How was he processing all of this?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Well, he will say that it helps that I'm a psychiatrist, because I would ask him, you know, sometimes he will just kind of note the observations, but I would be the one asking him the reaction to those or getting into. Digging deeper into what it was like for him, and so that would help him process. And, yeah, he was writing almost like a kind of a daily journal, basically, in these whatsapps to me.

[Anna Martin]

How did you explain his absence to. To your kids?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Well, our son was only like, four, five months at the time, you know. Wow.

[Anna Martin]

So young.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

They were very little. Yeah. And so. And that was really part of my fear, was that if he didn't come back, they wouldn't even remember him. And what a sad legacy that would be. It would be a legacy of absence and just my retelling. And my daughter, I mean, she's super attached to him, and she's Precociously verbal. We had kind of prepared her. Baba's going on a long trip. And we had the number of bedtimes. So every bedtime, I would shave off. Okay, now, today is 13 bedtimes. Today is 12 bedtimes. 11 more bedtimes. And that was seven. Sort of how we. How we did it. But she really missed him.

[Anna Martin]

Bring me into how it felt to talk to him or to wait to talk to him or, you know, to wait for the voice notes. What was that like for you?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

There was just so much uncertainty. The mind will try to rationalize. The mind will try to say, oh, well, they have their coordinates. They'll be safe. They're American. They'll be safe. They're not Palestinian. They're not the targets. The mind will try to rationalize.

[Anna Martin]

Right.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

But none of that is truth. The truth is you don't know. You cannot predict. You have no idea what tomorrow will bring.

[Anna Martin]

After those two weeks, these. The two weeks of his mission, were you like, I am never going to let you leave again. Like, this was hard. That's never happening. You are back. I'm keeping you here.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

No. I knew he would go back.

[Anna Martin]

How did you know?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Well, there were two missions that he had put his name on, and he was like, well, the reason is because if the first mission doesn't work out, it falls through, and then the second one gets full, then I'm just not going to be able to go at all. And so he put his name on both, thinking that the second one was plan B. But I'm like, I know you. You're committed. I was like, I'm not gonna be the person that tells you you can't go. I'm not gonna stop you. I was like, I think that you're the kind of person who honors your commitments. And he sort of saw that as me supporting him again.

[Anna Martin]

What was it like the second time he was gone. What happened? The situation had only gotten more dangerous since the first time he went.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Before he left, there was sort of rumblings of a ground invasion in Rafah. And then a week into his mission, they invaded Rafah. And then once they invaded Rafah, there was no exit. There's no way out of Gaza without Rafah.

[Anna Martin]

And this whole time, Mahmoud is sending you voice notes, updating you on what's happening and what's going on.

[Mahmoud]

It's not like, you know, a regular ICU where there's one nurse for two patients. It's just a couple nurses for the whole icu. Then, you know, the doctors the nurses, the volunteers are the only ones taking care of them. But we can't stay by their side 24 7.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

You know, his observations were really poignant.

[Mahmoud]

You put your efforts into saving someone's life, and you sincerely believe that you would save his life or her life because you've seen it before. But it's like a shock when they die because you have nothing to help them with.

[Anna Martin]

What went through your head when you learned that Rafa was being vetted and there was no way out for Mahmoud?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

The day Mahmoud told me, we're not leaving on the date that we are supposed to leave. There's no plan right now for how we are going to leave or when. That was when I was like, oh, God, like, all the anxieties. I'd had the first mission, and it was like, okay, now. Now we're actually at the point where he really might not come back.

[Mahmoud]

So on Monday, they're going to take only two people. I'm sorry. And they're going to take only two people, and they're going to put a third name, just in case. But it's only two people for Monday.

I called you and it's not going through. I guess we can just talk over voice notes. I let your mom and dad. No, they were together. I. Like, I called your mom. I told them you're not coming on Monday. They're okay. They're doing okay. They're staying strong. They just. They're. As long as you're safe, they just want you home safely, you know, by whatever means, however long it takes.

Sorry. Comes. I'm really concerned about how you're feeling. Please tell me how you're feeling. Feeling. I. And, I mean, it's kind of a stupid question. I know you're very upset and sad. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let's just. Just. Just tell me, like, where are you? What. Can you. Can you just. I'm worried about you as well. I'm trying to get out as soon as possible.

I'm. I'm really scared. I'm scared that I. I don't know what it. It means that they're trialing and taking two people and they're trying to get through Kedham Crossing. I have no idea what these things mean. As far as the possibility of safe passage, I have no idea. And I'm afraid. I'm anxious. I'm afraid and I'm frightened. I don't know what to expect.

[Anna Martin]

Were you regretting having told him to go again?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

No.

[Mahmoud]

No.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I mean, I. I had felt so many emotions both missions, but regret was never one of them.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I will never regret him going.

[Anna Martin]

When Mahmoud was safely out of Gaza and on his way home. What was your conversation like when you knew that he was coming home to you? What were you saying to each other?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I remember asking him, you know, what's the first thing you want to do? And he said, I just want to thank you for being so supportive of this. So supportive of me.

[Anna Martin]

What did that mean to you that he wanted to thank you?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

I think it was that feeling of being seen and acknowledged for my part, my role, you know, that it wasn't taken for granted.

[Anna Martin]

I think that thank you says a lot.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Yeah, I think so too. The courage for Mahmoud to go is obvious. I think the courage for me to be on board is more understated, and I think he could see that. And that courage comes from love.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I want to bring this back just to you and thinking about yourself and who you were when your first marriage ended and that fear and the shame, you know, thinking back on everything that you've been through since then. What would you say to yourself back then?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Hmm. I think I would tell myself to temper fear with hope.

[Anna Martin]

Speak more on that.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Fear is one way of looking at the future, of evaluating all that could go wrong. But if you let hope in too, you know, hope can prevail and the future can be much brighter then fear would have you think.

[Anna Martin]

What would you say to someone who wants to have the kind of deep love that you and Mahmoud have?

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Don't expect it to be easy. You know, it's. There's so much now, especially around ease and instant gratification. This love does not follow that path. This love is not convenient. So you have to get out of that space of wanting the love that serves you and recognizing that this kind of love is. You're in service. Your service builds a love like this.

[Anna Martin]

That's really beautifully put. Samayya, thank you so much for telling me your story today.

[Samaya Mushtaq]

Thank you, Anna.

[Anna Martin]

If you want to read Simea Mushtaq's Modern Love essay, there's a link to it in our show notes. This episode of Modern Love was produced by Sarah Curtis and Emily Lang. It was edited by Gianna Palmer and our executive editor, Jen Poyant. Fact checking by Ena Alvarado Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Alicia Ba Itoub and Rowan Nimisto. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman.

Special thanks to Larissa Anderson, Behemoth Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda and Paula Schumann.

The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our Show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

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