‘Modern Love’: The Kind of Pain She Wanted

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Modern Love”: The Kind of Pain She Wanted

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Daily
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Episode: ‘Modern Love’: The Kind of Pain She Wanted
• Release Date: August 10, 2025

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Daily, host Anna Martin delves into Grace Hussar’s poignant essay, “The Kind of Pain I Wanted,” featured in Modern Love. Grace shares her journey of overcoming chronic overthinking through ultra running and BDSM, ultimately finding a path to mindfulness and self-acceptance.

Grace Hussar’s Battle with Overthinking

Grace Hussar opens up about her lifelong struggle with overthinking, which kept her from staying present during significant moments. She recalls a pivotal instance when her anxiety prevented her from fully experiencing her boyfriend's declaration of love:

“I wish I could just go back to that moment and feel what it felt like to hear those words from him instead of watching his chin shake...” ([03:11]).

Finding Relief in Ultra Running

Seeking an escape from her incessant thoughts, Grace turned to ultra running—a form of extreme endurance running covering distances like 31 miles. Through this grueling sport, she discovered a way to silence her mind by pushing her physical limits:

“You become an animal. You become a physical being without the burden of a body.” ([03:49]).

After her first ultra marathon, Grace experienced a revelation where her body, although physically and mentally exhausted, left her feeling fulfilled and whole:

“I had never felt more fulfilled. I had never felt more whole.” ([04:05]).

The Introduction to BDSM

Grace’s journey didn’t stop with running. She found herself fascinated by BDSM when she sought new ways to manage her overthinking. This curiosity was sparked by her interactions with a rough massage therapist, whose intense sessions made her feel both pain and emotional release:

“I would leave those massages and be, like, so sexually tuned up...” ([08:05]).

Joining the BDSM Community

Intrigued yet overwhelmed by her initial explorations, Grace turned to FetLife, a social networking site for BDSM enthusiasts. She describes her initial reactions to the intense imagery and varied kinks on the platform:

“It was overwhelming. It was really overwhelming.” ([10:53]).

Despite her reservations, Grace found herself drawn back to the community, particularly captivated by a photograph of a woman in bondage who appeared peaceful despite her pain:

“What I loved most about it is that you can see how much pain her body was in, but her face just looked so peaceful...” ([12:15]).

Meeting Peter and The First Session

Grace connected with Peter, a respected figure in the BDSM scene known for his respectful and transparent approach. Their initial communication set the tone for a consensual and empowering experience:

“He was enhancing my repertoire of body types that I would like to tie... his honesty, that transparency... made me feel safe.” ([16:03]).

Their first meeting at Peter’s condo was tense yet transformative. Grace describes the setting—a room equipped for BDSM activities with both safety tools and artistic elements:

“He has a fairly normal condo... there is like a frame from like a swing set... and there's like a little electric candle hanging down.” ([28:04]).

The Dynamics of Control and Consent

In the room, Grace experienced the delicate balance of control inherent in BDSM. Peter’s methodical and respectful approach helped her relinquish control safely:

“He said, don’t help me. It brought me into the moment.” ([32:57]).

Grace chose the coconut rope, the most painful option, which intensified her physical experience. Despite the pain, Peter's focus on her well-being ensured her safety and consent throughout:

“I opened my eyes, and we were just kind of nose to nose... you’re gonna be in this moment and be uncomfortable with that.” ([37:40]).

Transformation and Empowerment

The session concluded with Grace feeling an overwhelming sense of gratitude and trust toward Peter. This experience redefined her relationship with her own body, shifting from self-consciousness to viewing her body as a tool:

“I was laying on the floor exhausted... it was something that we were doing together.” ([42:27]).

Five years later, Grace reflects on how BDSM and ultra running have empowered her in all aspects of life. She emphasizes the importance of compartmentalizing and how these practices have enhanced her confidence both personally and professionally:

“Kink has allowed me to step into my power more in my personal life now, like, at work, you know, as a mother.” ([45:52]).

Conclusion

Grace Hussar’s story is a testament to the profound impact that controlled pain and extreme physical activities can have on mental health and self-perception. By embracing ultra running and BDSM, Grace overcame her overthinking tendencies, found mindfulness, and forged a healthier relationship with her body. Her journey underscores the importance of finding personalized methods to achieve mental and emotional well-being.

---

Notable Quotes:

• “You become an animal. You become a physical being without the burden of a body.” – Grace Hussar ([03:49])
• “What I loved most about it is that you can see how much pain her body was in, but her face just looked so peaceful...” – Grace Hussar ([12:15])
• “He was enhancing my repertoire of body types that I would like to tie... his honesty, that transparency... made me feel safe.” – Grace Hussar ([16:03])
• “I was laying on the floor exhausted... it was something that we were doing together.” – Grace Hussar ([42:27])

Production Credits:

• Producer: Sarah Curtis
• Editor: Jen Poyant and Davis Land
• Theme Music: Dan Powell
• Original Music: Diane Wong, Rowan Nimisto, and Carol Savaro
• Mixed by: Daniel Ramirez
• Studio Support: Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman
• Modern Love Column Editor: Daniel Jones
• Editor of Modern Love Projects: Mia Lee

Further Engagement: Listeners interested in exploring more Modern Love stories can subscribe to the show on nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscriptions offer early access to episodes, the latest read-alouds, and the full back catalog of Modern Love.

Transcript

[Betterment]

Don't just imagine a better future. Start investing in one with betterment. Whether it's saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow. We help people in small businesses put their money to work. We automate to make savings simpler. We optimize to make investing smarter. We build innovative technology backed by financial experts. For anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better, so be invested in yourself. Be invested in your business. Be invested in better with betterment. Get [e-mail] investing involves risk performance not guaranteed.

[Michael]

Hey, it's Michael. As you've probably noticed, every Sunday, you have been hearing episodes of the fantastic show Modern Love right here on the daily feed. Modern Love is going to be on our feed for a few more weeks. And to set up this week's show, I've got host Anna Martin right here in our studio. Hey, Anna.

[Anna Martin]

Hey, Michael.

[Michael]

Thank you for being here.

[Anna Martin]

Thanks for having me.

[Michael]

So tell us about this week's episode.

[Anna Martin]

All right, Michael, I feel like I probably know the answer to this question, but I'll ask it anyway. Do you consider yourself an overthinker?

[Michael]

100%.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. Without a doubt.

[Michael]

Never an underthinker. Only an overthinker.

[Anna Martin]

Never the right amount of thinker. Overthinker.

[Michael]

Overthinker. Yep.

[Anna Martin]

What if I told you I spoke to someone who'd figured out a way to stop their own overthinking, and it involves a getting tied up, but in a sexy way.

[Michael]

Is there any other kind of being tied up? There is, as I like to say on the Daily. Just explain that.

[Anna Martin]

I will actually let Grace Hussar explain that she's the woman that I spoke to in this episode. She wrote a fantastic Modern Love essay that our episode is based on. That essay is called the Kind of Pain I Wanted.

[Michael]

I love that title.

[Anna Martin]

Mm. Great title.

[Michael]

So this is not necessarily for everyone?

[Anna Martin]

Um, no, this would not be an episode for the full family.

[Michael]

Just part of it.

[Anna Martin]

Just part of it. Just. Just the adults.

[Michael]

Okay. This might be my job. This might be your job, but I'm gonna introduce this week's episode of Modern Love, which I can't wait to hear. Here it is.

[Anna Martin]

Great introduction, Michael.

[Michael]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

Love now.

[Grace Hussar]

And did you fall in love last fella? I love her. For the love was stronger than anything. For the love of love. And I love you more than anything. You're still loved. Love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today, I'm talking to a writer about how she discovered that pain and BDSM were key to her being fully in her body and in the moment.

[Grace Hussar]

In the most important moments of my life, my brain was instead focusing on, how do I remember this so that it's perfect?

[Anna Martin]

For her entire life, Grace Hussar struggled to stay present. She was always a little outside of the moment, and it bothered her. As a fellow extreme overthinker, I have to say I related to this hard. For example, this detail really stuck out to me. Grace told me about how when she was telling her boyfriend she loved him for the first time, she got so in her head about it that she couldn't even remember what it felt like when he said it back.

[Grace Hussar]

I wish I could just go back to that moment and feel what it felt like to hear those words from him instead of watching his chin shake, instead of waiting for the right response or worrying over the wrong response. I wish I could go back to that moment and just feel that feeling.

[Anna Martin]

All of this started changing when Grace became a runner. And not just any kind of runner, an ultra runner. This is extreme endurance running. 31 miles. You heard that right. 31 miles or more. She was pushing herself to her limit or beyond it.

[Grace Hussar]

You become an animal. You become a physical. A physical being without the burden of a body. You become just all id.

[Anna Martin]

And after her first ultra marathon, something clicked.

[Grace Hussar]

My body was. My body was fucked. I mean, there was not a part of me that was not just wrecked, but mentally. I had never felt more fulfilled. I had never felt more whole.

[Anna Martin]

Grace realized that her body coped with the pain of endurance running by turning her brain off. She also realized that felt good. She wanted more of it. More pain, less thinking. So she dug a little further to find more of the kind of pain she wanted. That's actually the title of her Modern love essay, the Kind of Pain I Wanted. I was so curious to talk to this mother of two who's in a happy partnership, who has a career in finance, about how she realized that pain was essential to taking care of herself. Stay with us.

[Grace Hussar]

Hey, I'm Joelle.

[Anna Martin]

And I'm Juliet from New York Times Games, and we're out here talking to people about games. You play New York Times Games? Yes, every day.

[Grace Hussar]

Do you have a favorite Connections?

[Joelle]

It just makes you think. I feel like it gives me elasticity.

[Grace Hussar]

Create four groups of four. Hmm. This is actually a pretty cool game. What's your favorite game?

[Anna Martin]

The crossword. The crossword. I do it with my brother.

[Grace Hussar]

We get Thursday sometimes, but I don't think I couldn't do Thursday on my own.

[Anna Martin]

I feel like I'M learning. I feel like I'm accomplishing something. I like the do, do, do, do do do, do do. When you finish it, my family does.

[Grace Hussar]

Wordle and we have a huge group chat. Like, my grandma does wordle.

[Anna Martin]

Your grandma does wordle? Oh, every day. Yeah. Do you have a wordle Hot take?

[Michael]

You should start with a word that's.

[Grace Hussar]

Strategically bad to make it more fun. All of these games are so fun. Cause it's like a little 5 to 10 minute break.

[Anna Martin]

I love these games.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. New York Times subscribers get full access to all our games and features. Subscribe [e-mail] games for a special offer.

[Anna Martin]

You know, Grace, this is certainly one of the more fun first questions I've ever asked a guest on the podcast. But I wonder, what does BDSM mean to you?

[Grace Hussar]

So it means a lot of different things to me. In the beginning, you hear BDSM and you think of, like, latex and leather and whips and chains and people getting tied up. But what you sort of learn to identify with BDSM is control and relief of control and what domination means and what it feels like to submit to someone. So to me, when I hear the term bdsm, I immediately think of, what does submission mean to me? And what does it mean to give up power in a way that doesn't cost me my agency? What does it mean to be relieved of having to carry power? If you're seeking out a BDSM relationship, you're not looking to have control taken from you. You're looking to be relieved of the ownership of being in control. You're looking to be relieved of the pressure of making decisions.

[Anna Martin]

So you realized after this first ultramarathon that you really liked what pain did to your brain, right?

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

How did you get the idea that you wanted to experience pain in other ways?

[Grace Hussar]

You know, there was never a moment where I was like, huh, look at me. I'm a masochist. Like, it. It was more like, okay, I like this thing. Well, I like this thing. I like this. I like that. And there's a moment where you're like, this gives me some relief. I wonder if I push it to the extreme, I'll get a ton of relief.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, can I. Can I pause you before this? Like, how is this the next, like, step that your brain took? It's like, okay, well, I like pain. Some people might be like, maybe I'll look into, I don't know, like, extreme weightlifting or something. Like, why was it bdsm? Like, how did that specific Thing.

[Grace Hussar]

Ultra runners all joke that they're masochists. Okay, you know, it's this or hire a sex worker to whip me. You know what I mean? People will make jokes like that. If not ultra running, then I'd be wearing women's stockings and tied up in a basement or something like that. It was never something that I took too seriously until, gosh, what was, like, the precipice that I jumped off of? I think what it was is that I had a very good massage therapist, and it was right after I started doing endurance events. And he was extremely rough. Like, I mean, he just really destroyed my muscles. And he would always joke that he was tenderizing me because your muscles are, like, so tense afterwards. And he would get up on the table and, like, get on my back and, like, drive his elbow into me. And it was so painful that I would cry while he was doing it and, like, feeling the muscles open up. I was opening up emotionally as my muscles were opening up. And I found myself very attracted to him while we were doing this. And I would leave those massages and be, like, so sexually tuned up that, like, I was like, wouldn't it be great if we had this, like, someone beating me up and then also having sex with me? Like, wouldn't that be a wonderful finish to this? I think that's what did it. I think it was shortly after that that I started just. I can't remember what I Googled, but it was probably something terrible, like painful massage, happy ending or something stupid like that, Like. And of course, it took me to FetLife, which I had never heard of.

[Anna Martin]

For people who don't know what is FetLife.

[Grace Hussar]

So FetLife is a site that one could compare to Facebook. It's a social networking site, and people chat on there, but what they are mostly chatting about is their various kinks, and they're finding other people who have those kinks to connect with.

[Anna Martin]

What did you start to see on there and how did it make you feel?

[Grace Hussar]

It was overwhelming. It was really overwhelming. And like, anyone else, you look at that stuff and you're like, well, those people are freaks. Like, that's not me at all, you know? And you see things like people just being in various states of torture, tied up, strung up, chained to things. There's all kinds of kinks that are very hard and hard to look at. And at first, I looked around a little bit, and I was like, well, that's freaky, and I'm way out of my depth on this. And I logged off and Then I went back again.

[Anna Martin]

Why? Why did you return?

[Grace Hussar]

Because I was fascinated. I don't know. It's kind of like when you're attracted to someone who's not who you're normally attracted to, and you're like, well, that guy's a gross, sweaty man. Like, you know, and then, like, you see him more and more, and you're like, is he, though, really?

[Anna Martin]

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. So you're like, it wasn't that bad. Like, you were just being a baby. Go back and look at it. And so you go back and you look at it again, and there's always one thing that sticks out, and you're like, well, I kind of like that, you know?

[Anna Martin]

And what was that for you?

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. So one of the first pictures I saw was a woman tied up with rope. And, you know, one of the things that caught my eye was how at peace her face looked while her body was just contorted in what looked to be an incredibly painful predicament. Bondage. Her arms were tied, her legs were tied. She was hanging from a beam, and her skin was purple in places. But what drew you to the picture? What drew me to the picture, What I loved most about it is that you can see how much pain her body was in, but her face just looked so peaceful and so beautiful, and it looked like she was happy to be experiencing that. It looked like. Like she had found peace in that pain. And I kept coming back to that picture because the face was. It disarmed me a bit, because you want to just see something like that and be like, oh, my God, that's so painful. But then why did she look so happy?

[Anna Martin]

Tell me more about the inner monologue when you were looking at this picture. Was it like, I want to do that, or was it just like that? Looks like. Yeah. Tell me more about what was your monologue as you were looking at that photo?

[Grace Hussar]

At first it was, I could never do that. And then it was, she looks like she has the kind of relief that I want.

[Anna Martin]

She has the kind of relief that you want and that perhaps you've gotten a taste of through running. It sounds like an only running.

[Grace Hussar]

Yep. Yeah, I mean, I. Everyone, I think, at some point dabbles a little bit in bdsm. You get a certain boyfriend who's like, you know, call me Daddy, or you watch 50 Shades of Gray, and you're like, oh, that's what it is.

[Anna Martin]

I want to be joked, I guess.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, exactly. And so you sort of dabble in it. And you decide early on, this is not for me. You know, I don't like it like that. You know, I'm not looking for someone to take something from me, but I'm looking for relief. I'm looking to be. To have my burden lifted instead of have a power struggle, you know? And everything I had known about BDSM up to that point was that you were giving someone else control and someone was going to control you. And from my perspective, I'm someone who's very domineering, a little bit, depending on who you ask. I'm a person who likes to be in control. And so I could never wrap my brain around how you give that up and how you trust someone that much. And it was these early pictures that sort of helped me see that these people who are tied, someone wasn't controlling them. They were being relieved of their burden.

[Anna Martin]

Being intrigued by something right is one thing, but actually kind of setting out to try to get involved in that thing and, you know, is another. Of course. Tell me about. How did you make a profile at this point?

[Grace Hussar]

It took me a couple of visits before I made a profile, and I started just joining in these little chats about things.

[Anna Martin]

What kinds of questions were you asking or what were you talking about?

[Grace Hussar]

How do I find someone who will do this? How do I know that I can trust someone? Does anybody else worry about getting murdered? You know, I mean, how do you do this? What happens in your brain when you do this? Like, you know, does it hurt? Do you regret it? All those questions, and did people come.

[Anna Martin]

To you with answers?

[Grace Hussar]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. People in the community, in the kink community particularly, they love talking about it because it is so misunderstood. And probably a lot of people who look at it just are like, oh, those people are freaks. And so they welcome the opportunity to be seen as, like, people with normal lives who do this one sexual thing.

[Anna Martin]

You know, so you have this profile. You're getting all these. You're learning more about this world. You're getting these questions answered. Who did you meet?

[Grace Hussar]

So one of the first people that reached out to me was Peter, and he was very popular in the scene at the time. And part of the reason for that was twofold. Number one, he did not put any pressure on people. He just kind of introduced himself and let things fall where it will, whereas everyone else would be like, not only am I gonna tie you up, but then I'm gonna do all these, you know, crazy things to you, and, oh, my God, your pussy's gonna feel amazing. Like, they would really just write you this erotic essay, you know, Whereas Peter was kind of like, this is what I have in mind for us. Let me know if you're interested. And so he sent me a message not long after I joined FedLife, maybe like a couple of weeks. And by this time, I had put a couple of pictures of myself up just to kind of give people the idea of what they were dealing with. And I remember he wrote to me that he was. I can't remember how he phrased it. It was like, I am enhancing my repertoire of body types that I would like to tie. And you on my radar as someone who is in that spectrum of bodies. And I am a bit fuller. I'm like, maybe a size 12, 14. And so for me, that honesty, that transparency where he wasn't like, you're so hot, I want to get my hands on you. He was kind of like, you have a body type that you don't see in these pictures a lot. And I would like to learn how to tie that body. And it disarmed me. I felt like it wasn't just a copy and pasted message. He was actually seeing me and seeing my body and seeing what I wanted.

[Anna Martin]

He sends you this message, which was comforting to you because of its transparency and also to me sounds quite. Maybe this is the wrong word, but almost like business like. Or like a little clinical. Which is. Which maybe also was kind of like, okay, this guy has like, his. As opposed to maybe the more florid or over the top. It sounds like messages from other people. Like, this was to the point.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, I was very attracted to that. Like, just clinical, you know, honesty. Like, it. It felt. It made me feel safe.

[Anna Martin]

How did you respond? And also. Wait, sorry, even before that, what did his profile look like to you? Were you drawn in?

[Grace Hussar]

His profile was insane. He had hundreds of pictures on there. And he tied men, women, you know, I mean, fat people, skinny people, you know, every race. He had hundreds of pictures on there. I remember I clicked on his profile after he messaged me, and I was like, oh, my God, I am not up for this. Because the people were tied in all different ways. And it was painful looking. And when I saw it, I was like, no, it seems like it was.

[Anna Martin]

Pushing the envelope for. For you.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

How did you go from being like, I am out of my depth here. I don't think I can do this, to being like, maybe I should reply like, how did that. How did that work?

[Grace Hussar]

Well, this is how, you know, I was like, new to, like, online dating and online Encounters is because now, like, I would get a message like that and see those pictures and be like, oh, no, not for me. But then I was still trying to, like, reply to every message I got. And so I was like, well, I'm not gonna, you know, connect with this guy, but I'll do the polite thing and tell him I'm not interested. And so I sent him a message back and I was like, you know, you seem really great, and I really enjoyed your message, but I think that this depth of kink is a little out of my frame of reference right now. And I don't think I'm ready for that. And I expected, based on, like, other men on the Internet, for him to be like, you know, well, fuck you, bitch. You're a fat ass whore, or whatever men always say to women who reject them. But he was very nice. And he was like, you know, perhaps being new, you don't understand that, like, you are the one setting the parameter. So if that's out of your depth, tell me what's in your depth and we'll start there.

[Anna Martin]

He's saying, you know, just FYI, you'd be the one who'd be in control.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. And that kind of blew my mind. And so, of course, like, my biggest fear with BDSM was, was giving up control. And so for him to respond, actually, you're the one in control. Like, I'm just doing what you tell me to do. I was like, okay, where do you want to meet? I was like, I mean, I set it back very nicely. I was like, okay, this intrigues me. Like, would you like to talk more in person?

[Anna Martin]

I don't know a lot about this world, but I do know that a big part of kink is explicit consent in these kinds of scenarios. Like, tell me about what kind of conversation you two had before you started doing anything.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. When he messaged me, you know, like, okay, can we have this conversation in person? I was like, okay, yeah, no problem. And I was so new that I. I wasn't expecting the amount of information I got after I said, okay, let's meet up. And he asked me for my phone number. He was like, are you comfortable giving your phone number? I said yes. I sent him my phone number. And immediately, immediately after, I got text after text after text of, like, attachments. And they were descriptions of things that he enjoyed doing and of course, like, the option to opt out of any of those things. And his preference was to tie rope bottoms naked so that he could better see the placement of the rope and Then there was a diagram of a body and you had to color any part of the body green that he was allowed to touch, part of the body read that he wasn't allowed to touch. And then there were maybe 20 or 30 questions about areas of trauma. And as a adolescent, I was assaulted by a adult that I trusted several times. So that ability to like stay in the moment, I was robbed of that by that experience. And I learned that like, sex is something you tolerate and not something you participate in. And it's something that's done to you and not something you enjoy, you know. And so finding that balance and walking that line, for me it's been a hard fought path. It's been an ultra marathon.

[Anna Martin]

It's a really important framing, I think, for why having control and also being able to release control in a way that's still keeps the power with you is so important to you. So I really appreciate.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, absolutely. Part of, for me reclaiming my power was acknowledging that I have permission to enjoy sexuality and I have permission to explore sexuality. And it was like, I remember there was a question on there that was like, I hope to feel like blank from my encounter. And you had to fill it in.

[Anna Martin]

What did you put?

[Grace Hussar]

I think I put I want to feel present for my encounter with you.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Grace Hussar]

So we did all the paperwork, I sent it back right away, and we made a plan to meet up at a cafe. And he was like, normally, just so you know, I try to pick a place near me so that if we hit it off and you want to try something, we can go back to my place and try it. And again, the transparency really drew me in. I really was like, you know, it wasn't long. Like, he was like, nothing's gonna happen on this first meetup. Like, don't get your hopes up, yada, yada, yada. And so I was like, okay, I'm open to that. You know, let's pick a day where I have a little bit more time. And so I made sure that like I had a kid free afternoon and everything was in order for me to spend a few hours doing that.

[Anna Martin]

So you see him at the cafe. Tell me about your first impression.

[Grace Hussar]

He was so attractive. And I remember looking at his hands a lot because he has like really big, strong looking hands. And I remember seeing them in the pictures and there were a lot of fractional images in that memory for me, but not a lot of conversation. Like my brain was kind of like, who cares what he has to say? You know, he's gonna say all the right things. I'm gonna say all the right things.

[Anna Martin]

You know, And I'm looking at those hands.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. When you're doing something like this, you're relying so heavily on, like, your animal instincts to tell you what to do, you know, because if you're afraid, you know, it's not right if you're not attracted to him. I mean, we're not. We weren't building a life together. We weren't dating. And so it all came down to the bargain basement floor of, like, humanity. Like, do I trust him? Do I feel attracted to him? There weren't a lot of questions. It wasn't like I had to, you know, know what he did for a living or, you know, what was your relationship with your ex wife like? Like, it was a lot of animal instincts. And within minutes, probably within the first five minutes, I was like, okay, I've had enough.

[Anna Martin]

Had enough.

[Grace Hussar]

Like, I just knew I would go through with it. He was like, you want to get out of here? And I was like, yeah.

[Anna Martin]

We'Ll be right back.

[Joelle]

Ollie knows the back to school chaos all too well. Schedules, carpools, relearning algebra 2. It's a lot for you and your crew. Ollie makes wellness an easy and delightful part of your routine. Need immune support? Kids will enjoy. Try kids multi plus probiotic. Is bedtime a struggle? Go with kids. Sleep for gentle support moms. Support your immune system, nutrition, and more with women's multi. Grab these [e-mail] or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This podcast is supported by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Cathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist, along with their guests, analyze economic developments and bring context to conversations around stocks, fixed income, the economy, and more. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anna Martin]

And now take me through, you know, everything that happens next. So you. You get out of there. You drive, it sounds like, to his house.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. So, you know what's funny is, like, I was so nervous that I. I don't remember that. That trip. I don't remember, you know, A plus B. I don't remember the stats. Yeah, I remember we were in the cafe and I made the decision that, like, this could work. And then the next thing I know, my brain is turning on, and I'm like standing under the, like a frame in his rope room.

[Anna Martin]

Describe that room for me. This rope room.

[Grace Hussar]

So he has a fairly normal condo. It looks fine and it's just like a two bedroom condo. And then in one of the rooms, there is like a frame from like a swing set, you know, like a children's swing set, but without any of the swings or anything. It's just a frame for it. And on one end of the frame is like types of rope and a rope bag, and there's like a little electric candle hanging down. And then on the other end of the frame is an extremely large, extremely sharp knife and a pair of scissors. And I saw the knife and I remember thinking it was weird. I wasn't scared.

[Anna Martin]

And just to be clear, that the knife and the scissors are for what, emergencies.

[Grace Hussar]

So if, for instance, you tie someone and they lose feeling in their fingertips, or if, for instance, you know, their leg goes numb, there's all kinds of emergencies that could happen. And of course, you're dealing with edge play, you know, and rope wasn't the only thing he did in that room. And so there had to be a contingency plan.

[Anna Martin]

It's interesting. Your instincts were right. These weren't like weapons. These were safety mechanisms.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

So interesting. Something in you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so you're in this room. I mean, I'm just. Just to like, was this room, was he playing music? Was it silent? Could you hear anything of the outside world? Was it its own bubble?

[Grace Hussar]

Like, it was not its own bubble for sure. I could hear things outside, you know, traffic, the birds. There's a big tree outside of his house. And it was funny, we were joking because he queued up like a playlist and it was like, I was joking that it's his dungeon playlist. It's like Enya and like all kinds of, like, totally, you know, like, who can sail? So, like, his goal, and he had prepared me for this a little bit, was to get me out of my head by making me uncomfortable.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Grace Hussar]

And so when we got to the room, he was like, you're gonna stand under that frame and I'm gonna undress you, and then I'm gonna look at your body.

[Anna Martin]

What's happening in your mind? What's happening in your body?

[Grace Hussar]

So I remember what happened in that room in snapshots. I remember it being very fractional. And so I stood under the frame and he sat on the couch and he just looked at me and like, I am not someone who's super Comfortable with eye contact. And so it felt very disconcerting to just be stared at.

[Anna Martin]

It's intense.

[Grace Hussar]

I got the sense that he was just like, perceiving my body as it was, you know? Cause when you meet someone off the Internet, especially when there's a sexual component, you present your body in a way that you feel is the most attractive. Attractive, Like, I'm going to wear this dress. I'm going to wear the good push up bra. Like, you're. You're creating a picture of how you want to be perceived. But when you just stand there and you allow yourself the ability to be a body, it can feel very vulnerable.

[Anna Martin]

Is your brain going into overdrive? Like, this is what he's thinking about me. This is, you know.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, oh, he's thinking this, he's regretting this. Like, what is he doing? How long is this gonna take? I have to pick up the kids by four. Like, all the thoughts are coming. Like, hurry up, get it done. You know, this is another thing I'm doing today. And his, his whole goal was for it to not be another thing I'm doing today. His whole goal was, this is the thing you're doing, so don't add me to your to do list.

[Anna Martin]

What happened and at what point did your brain stop?

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, so all of a sudden he stood up and first he took my sweater off, and I remember I was kind of like moving my shoulders to, like, help him get it off. And he put his hand on my, like, chest, and he said, don't help me.

[Anna Martin]

Whoa.

[Grace Hussar]

And I remember being like, oh, shit. Because all I do is help people, right? Like, that's what you do. You're socially conditioned to, like, make it as easy as possible for someone to love you. So don't help me. It brought me into the moment. And so he took my sweater off and then he unbuttoned my shirt. And then, you know, I was standing there without a shirt and he walked around me and then he took my bra off and then he took my skirt down. Like, you don't realize how many layers of clothes you're wearing until they're being taken off one by one by one. Eventually we got to the point where I was just standing under the posts, not wearing anything. And your instinct is to not cover yourself, but kind of like make your body look the best, you know? So you arch your back, you turn your hip out, and he put his hand on my butt and he said, stop. Like, just stand there. And so I did stop. And I just stood there. And he lifted my arms up and he kind of put his hands on my waist. It felt like he was like gauging my body, like, how much rope will I need? What are the soft parts? Where are the muscles? You know? And he said, get on your knees. And I thought, oh, fuck. Like, he's not even gonna use the rope. He's just gonna make me give him a blowjob or something. And so I got on my knees and he turned around and like walked out of the room. And I was like, oh, shit. And he came back with this bamboo pole. And before we had gotten to this point, he had held three different kinds of rope out in front of me. And one was this like cushy hemp colored rope. One was this like very hard, bristly, like paracord looking rope. And one was this spiky coconut rope that looked kind of like barbed wire. And he was like, you pick what you want. And so, like, I looked at the colored rope and I thought, oh, that's cute. And I looked at the paracord and I was like, that looks too artificial. But the coconut rope looked. It looked like. It looked like it would hurt. And I picked the coconut rope. And he was like, of course you.

[Anna Martin]

Do most painful one. Did you even have to think about it?

[Grace Hussar]

No, I didn't.

[Anna Martin]

So you've chosen the rope, he leaves the room, he comes back with the bamboo pole. Then. Then what?

[Grace Hussar]

The next thing I know, I was laying on my stomach on the floor and he was tying my legs to the bamboo pole and. And I had put my arms behind my back and he had tied my arms behind them. Not as bad as it could be. He was kind of taking it easy on me. But the legs were really bad.

[Anna Martin]

And by bad you mean, like painful painful?

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, it was challenging. It was a challenge. And I remember letting go and just being in the pain because when you look at the pictures of rope, everyone looks. Their face looks so beautific, you know, and you think they're getting this relief from it. It probably feels like a weighted blanket or something. It feels like a constriction, a very tight hug. But it is. It's incredibly painful. And it could have been the rope I picked. That could be why it was so particularly painful. But it's. Oh my God, it hurt so bad. Like the blood vessels were like. I mean, it's like when you were a little kid and you would put a rubber band around your finger.

[Anna Martin]

Totally. That's what I was thinking about.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, yeah. And you'd be like, oh, my gosh, that hurt very much quicker than I thought it would. So it was like, as soon as he started tying my legs to the post and he was, like, making the links, I was like, I need to get in to the pain a lot quicker than I expected. Like, I thought it would be sexier, you know, but it was not. And after he had tied my legs to the pole and my arms were behind my back, he started making a loop to the frame so that he could lift my legs higher than my head, which, if your legs are already in a lot of pain and then they're lifted up, the blood is already having trouble getting to your legs, and then it all rushes to your head.

[Anna Martin]

It was even more intense.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. And so you get really lightheaded. And so after he did that and the blood was all rushing to my head and I felt really lightheaded, he went and sat on the couch and, like, watched me for a minute. And he must have sensed that I was not doing well because he came and got on the floor with me, and he put his face in front of my face, and he. The eye contact necessitated that I stay in the moment. The eye contact brought me back. And I realized now that that's what he was doing. He was saying, you're gonna be in this moment and be uncomfortable with that. And he wanted me to feel the pain, and so I did. I opened my eyes, and we were just kind of nose to nose. And he said, you'll know if you're listening to your body. You're an athlete. You'll know when it's time to take it off.

[Anna Martin]

And how did you know when it was time? What was the flag your body or your brain sent up?

[Grace Hussar]

So I felt my toes getting numb. And it's kind of like when your foot has fallen asleep and it's uncomfortable, but it's not painful. And as an athlete, you get accustomed to checking in with your body and figuring out whether pain is an alert of, like, trouble that's coming or trouble that's there. And so you're checking in, and you're checking in. You're saying, this is painful, but trouble's not here yet. And then all of a sudden, the pain changes, and you're like, oh, yeah, no, this is not right. This is not right. It's not pain that you can get inside of anymore. It's too much.

[Anna Martin]

So then what happened? Did you tell him? How did you signal to him?

[Grace Hussar]

So I looked at him, and he said, enough. And I said, yeah. And he just untied it. And when you get rope taken off of your body, it's like your whole body exhales, like you're in such an uncomfortable restriction. And then it's removed and the rope comes off a lot faster than it goes on. It takes forever to get it on, and then it's loosened and your whole body just goes, like, whoosh. And it's like the deepest sigh you can imagine. It's like a sigh from every part of your body. It just. Your synapses just exhale.

[Anna Martin]

How are you feeling towards him? Towards yourself?

[Grace Hussar]

You get very. What's the right word? When you're in a lot of pain and someone releases you, you are grateful to them. And when someone is walking you through the pain, there's a kind of sexuality in that gratitude. And so I felt very safe. I felt taken care of. I felt just this enormous, like, tidal wave of, like, trust and love and just, you know, thank you, thank you, thank you. And even though he had been the one to tie me up, and even though he had been sort of the impetus for the pain, like, I had felt this crushing sense of gratitude, and it made me want to be intimate with him, and it made me want to keep going. And up until this point, our interactions had been very clinical. Like, I was a body and he was hands. And it wasn't until he could see that I was actually exhausted that the sexuality came back to both of us. Like, we became people again and not bodies and hands. I was an exhausted person, and he was a person who felt needed and valued. And so then we were attracted to each other. It wasn't like a date where we would, like, make out and then see what happens. And, you know, like, I was laying on the floor exhausted, and he started just, like, sort of massaging my body with his hands. And then he took out a vibrator and he, you know, gave me an orgasm. Things sort of progressed from there. And we did have sex with each other, but it was very kind of like the massage that I talked about where it was like I was very broken and kind of just present in the moment because of that brokenness. And it felt like I was in control.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, it is interesting to me what we said about how this dynamic between rope tops and rope bottoms. Let's say it's not just the rope top who's in control. We talked about how the rope bottom is also sort of making the active choice to give control over. This is kind of a windy way of asking this question. But, you know, when you were Tied or even when you were having sex and being intimate after the tying, like, did you feel in control?

[Grace Hussar]

Oh, 100%. There was not ever a moment where it felt like sex was something that was happening to me, which, like, because of my trauma history, I had been very intentional about how sex is not something that happens to me. And I was very afraid that after the rope, I would be so physically spent that he would just take advantage of me and we would just have sex, you know, and he would be like, I did this thing for you, now you do this thing for me.

[Anna Martin]

Transactional. Yeah.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, exactly. It was not like that at all. I was the person saying what was okay and what was not okay. And it was never something that was being done to my body. It was something that we were doing together.

[Anna Martin]

It's really, I think, important to underline that you were the one to say stop or go, you know, like. And you were actively wanting to continue intimacy by having sex after this session.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

At the end of that session, you were leaving his home. I'm just trying to. You know, you describe the room. Like, you can hear the birds outside. And it is one of these things where, like, you leave this room, random condo in Chicago. Right. And you, like, get back into your car. Like.

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah. Well, it's funny. Like, once the pain stops, the thoughts come back. And so I remember, like, we had had sex, and it was, like, probably maybe halfway through the sex act where I started thinking, you know, is it gonna be obvious if I look at my watch and, like, what am I gonna make for dinner? Like, I'm exhausted. My legs hurt. Like, I do not wanna go home and, like, cook dinner and where can I get dinner? And what's around here? And did I see a sign that said chicken on sale? Like, you know, I started mentally tabulating what I had to do.

[Anna Martin]

The second the pain subsides, those thoughts come back. I mean, tell me, how did you know when this session was, like, officially done? Done?

[Grace Hussar]

He came.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, there you go. It's nothing more metaphor cocaine.

[Grace Hussar]

There you go. I mean, we weren't gonna, like, snuggle. Like, I mean, it was like we had done the rope. We were both tired. I had come several times, you know, and he is someone who really takes his time and makes sure that, like, I am fully satisfied and fully, you know, just laid out like that. I have eked out every, you know, pain, pleasure, experience discomfort that I can. And I was just a puddle. And so he was like, okay, now I can come. And then he did. And then you Know, he gave me his hand, and he helped me up, and we hugged each other, and I got dressed, and he stepped out of the room. And then I went into his living room where he was sitting down, like, drinking coffee, and I gave him a hug, and I was like, thank you. And he was like, this was really great. Let's do it again. I was like, okay, yeah, for sure. And then I left.

[Anna Martin]

Did you want to do it again?

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, I wanted to do it again while I was doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

And when you got home, was it strange to reenter the real world where you're a partner and a mom and, like, an employee? And was it strange to re enter?

[Grace Hussar]

Yeah, it's very strange. Even now, like, anytime, you know, I do something like that and I have, you know, gone down other avenues of kinks and sen, and I've been to different events and things like that, it is always strange because there's a duality to that, that aspect of your consciousness. I always say that folks with a trauma history are experts at compartmentalizing, you know, and so you do compartmentalize a little bit at first, anyway. Although, as I'm saying that, I think of all the ways that, like, kink has allowed me to, like, step into my power more in my personal life now, like, at work, you know, as a mother, like, it is very empowering for me.

[Anna Martin]

How many years has it been since that first session with Peter?

[Grace Hussar]

It's been about five years.

[Anna Martin]

About five years. I would love to hear you reflect on how you think rope play, kink. How has it changed your relationship to your own body?

[Grace Hussar]

You know, it has changed my relationship to my body in that, similar to ultra running, I stop thinking of my body as a thing to present, and I start thinking of my body as a tool, you know, and from the very first time that Peter, you know, undressed me and walked around my body and sort of gauged it as a whole and not like, oh, you know, two fat thighs or two bubbly butt or, you know, as a whole, as a tool. It's made it so much easier to love my body the same way ultrarunning has, because you begin to see that the, you know, big squishy bubble butt that, you know, you hate. Dressing is also really great when you're running because you need your glutes. Like, that's what's carrying you. That's what's doing the work of running, you know, and it's similar to rope, where when you start seeing your body as a tool, it's a lot Easier to fall in love with it, you know, and it's a lot easier to see what's beautiful about it instead of constantly like, is this my best side? Is this my, you know, perfect outfit? It's. There's a vulnerability to just exposing your whole body.

[Anna Martin]

The animal is not self conscious.

[Grace Hussar]

Yes, exactly. That's beautifully put. The animal is not self conscious. You never see like a horse being like, oh, my hooves.

[Anna Martin]

Totally, you know, God, my haunches.

[Grace Hussar]

Yes, exactly.

[Anna Martin]

Haunches. What's a haunch? I don't really know if that's a part of a horse.

[Grace Hussar]

You never see a grizzly bear being like, God, if I could lose these last £20, like, totally not.

[Anna Martin]

Well, I love doing that. You never see a bird be like, I wish my wings weren't shaped that way.

[Grace Hussar]

Yes, exactly. Like, animals just understand that their body is a tool, you know, and there's biology in that. There's divine design.

[Anna Martin]

Grace, what were you hoping to find when you decided to try rope play?

[Grace Hussar]

I was hoping to find a different part of my brain. I was hoping to find a new awareness of my body. I was hoping to uncover something that I hadn't seen before in myself.

[Anna Martin]

And did you find that?

[Grace Hussar]

Oh my God, yeah, Totally.

[Anna Martin]

Grace. What a conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time today.

[Grace Hussar]

You are so welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been a delight.

[Anna Martin]

Thanks for listening, everyone. Like we said at the top, Modern Love is only in the daily feed for a few more weeks. If you want to continue hearing the show, and I really hope you do, we've got links to subscribe to Modern Love in the description and we've got so much more Modern Love there for you to hear. Not only do you get Modern Love episodes a few days earlier than on the daily feed, but if you're a New York Times subscriber, you'll also get the latest Modern Love read aloud each week. Subscribers also get access to the full back catalog of Modern Love and there is a ton there to explore. I'm so excited for you to hear it. Just click the link to your podcast app. In this episode's description, the Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Jen Poyant and Davis Land. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Diane Wong, Rowan Nimisto and Carol Savaro. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

[Joelle]

Your home is an active investment, not a passive one. And with Rocket Mortgage, you can put your home equity to work right away. When you unlock your home equity, you unlock new doors for your family renovations, extensions, even buying your next property. Get started today with smarter tools and guidance from real mortgage experts. Find out [e-mail] Rocket Mortgage LLC licensed in 50 states nmlsconsumeraccess.org 3030.