Popcast: Olivia Rodrigo Tried Writing Love Songs. Then Life Got Messy.

Summary

The Daily x Popcast: Olivia Rodrigo Tried Writing Love Songs. Then Life Got Messy.

Date: May 31, 2026
Guests: Olivia Rodrigo (Artist), John Caramanica (Host, NYT Music Critic), Joe Coscarelli (Host, NYT Culture Reporter)

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Episode Overview

This special episode of The Daily hands the mic to the New York Times’ Popcast, where hosts John Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli sit down for an in-depth, candid conversation with Olivia Rodrigo. With her new album You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love on the verge of release, Olivia reflects on her songwriting evolution, the emotional arc of her work, fame, vulnerability, and the complexities of being a young woman in music. The discussion moves fluidly across topics—from her creative process, shifting sound, the influence of her personal life, her public image, fellow artists, and the responsibility of using her platform. The episode’s tone is honest, insightful, and at times playful, as Olivia reveals both her mature self-reflection and her enduring “fangirl” energy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Olivia’s Early Career and Pop Culture Roots

• Disney Origins & Breakout: Olivia reminisces about her time on Bizaardvark and High School Musical: The Musical: The Series, noting the enduring recognition she receives for those roles ([04:46]-[05:07]).
• SNL Experience: Hosting and performing on SNL was a dream come true. She praises the artistic devotion and family spirit of the cast (“They love each other so much…They're so devoted to this common mission and cause.” [06:45]), and shares a behind-the-scenes moment where Caramanica and Coscarelli fact-checked a script for accuracy on reggae/dancehall culture ([08:14]).

2. New Album: Structure, Themes, and Songwriting

• Chronological Narrative:
  • The album is structured as a narrative documenting a relationship's rise, apex, and aftermath, written largely in real time ([09:25]-[10:34]).
  • “I write songs to process my feelings. So every day … it's like, what is burning in me to say right now?” ([09:50])
• Evolution of Songs:
  • Some tracks originally started as love songs, but were “tweaked” post-breakup to add layers of sadness and honesty ([10:55]-[11:30]).
  • Olivia and her producer Dan reflected on the narrative arc post-facto to build a cohesive “capsule” of an emotional moment rather than a true concept album ([11:30]-[12:11]).

3. Maturity, Influence, and Self-Awareness

• Mining Complexity in Love:
  • Inspired by the book Simple Passion, she sought to capture the longing and even misery in love, not just euphoria ([13:09]).
  • “I was always kind of curious about trying to mine these more depressing feelings out of these love songs.” ([13:09])
• Rock & New Wave Influences:
  • The album draws less on pop-punk, more on '80s new wave and alternative, reflecting influences like The Cure, Talking Heads, and No Doubt ([15:55]-[18:26]).
  • Olivia describes meeting Robert Smith and deep-diving into the British new wave sound while living in England ([16:28]).

4. Songwriting Process & Vulnerability

• Write Constantly, Edit Later:
  • Olivia is a “quantity over quality” writer, crafting hundreds of songs and later choosing the gems ([22:12]).
  • “I write about lots of things, and then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good.” ([22:12])
• Catharsis and Honesty:
  • Songs crystallize if, a week later, she still feels a connection to them.
  • She values songs that present emotional honesty, not just from a place of breakups but also self-interrogation.

5. Navigating Fame, Public Perception & Peer Relationships

• Anger, Jealousy, and Being the “Villain”:
  • She addresses the tradition of writing jealousy at other women in pop music (like Jolene), and admits sometimes you just need to get the feeling out—even if “maybe it isn’t the most evolved” thing ([24:31]).
  • When asked if she’s okay with being seen as the villain: “I just know who I am as a person really well … I know my intentions and things, and I know why I write songs” ([25:47]).
• Handling Internet Scrutiny & Speculation:
  • She has learned to detach from public speculation and online detective work regarding her life, fame, or rumored feuds with artists like Taylor Swift ([56:29], [57:05]).
  • "I just had to learn to detach. And I think that's something I'm hopefully good at these days.” ([57:05])

6. Creative Growth & Lyric Writing

• Writing Love Songs vs. Breakup Songs:
  • The real challenge was to write interesting happy songs, not just breakup anthems ([46:40]-[47:13]).
  • She sought a less black-and-white view: “You can be in love and still feel insecure; you can be in love and also feel depressed ... all these things can be true at once.” ([47:46])
• Responsibility as a Public Figure:
  • She feels a natural responsibility to use her platform for causes she feels strongly about, but emphasizes it comes from honesty and upbringing (“My parents never made me feel stupid for saying something or being too emotional … I grew up in a household where … being outspoken … was so supported.” [52:41])
  • On being political: "As an artist, I feel like that's just what you do and that's my job.” ([51:08])

7. Connection to Young Fans and Legacy

• Presence of Young Girls:
  • Olivia remains moved by young girls crying at her concerts; she sees it as an honor to be a soundtrack to their emotional development ([61:00]).
  • “That is the most special thing ever. I remember being 8 and listening to music and it just meant so much to me.” ([61:04])
• Girlhood as Subject:
  • While she doesn’t deliberately pursue girlhood as a theme, she cherishes providing that soundtrack and catharsis ([64:13]).
• Nuance and Growth in Artistry:
  • She is aware that her albums are “documents” of her state of mind and looks forward to looking back with more wisdom in future years ([48:53]).

8. Open-Heartedness and Dealing with Imitation/Influence

• Credit and Lineage:
  • Despite public disputes over credited influences (e.g., interpolation with Taylor Swift), she remains adamant about giving credit and being a fan: “What's…boring is not being a fan of music. There's so much good music to be a fan of.” ([83:19])
• Touring with Her Heroes:
  • She curates her tour’s opening acts based on enthusiasm and admiration, proudly exposing young fans to her influences (noting The Breeders as an example) ([84:48]-[86:49]).

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• On the songwriting process:

  “I write songs to process my feelings. So every day when I … sit at the piano or I get the guitar … it's like, what is burning in me to say right now?”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [09:50]

• On changing love songs as her relationship evolved:

  “We had the fun challenge of going back and actually tweaking some of the love songs on the record and making them a little more honest and more sad and creepy.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [10:34]

• Reflecting on love’s tumult:

  “I was really inspired by just all the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable … there's a lot more to mine there than just like, ‘Yay, everything's great. Oh my god, he's so hot, he loves me!’”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [13:09]

• On influences and new album’s sound:

  “It just felt more exciting … the restraint of it felt nice … since meeting [Robert Smith], I kind of went back and listened to all those New Wave bands… I knew I wanted to write about how it felt to be in love. And love feels like that to me—kind of feels like that vibe.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [16:28]

• On creative vulnerability:

  “I think I know if I’ve stumbled upon something good if…if it makes me feel like, ‘Oh, yeah, that is how I was feeling. And that's a really clear, concise way of saying it.’”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [22:12]

• On “villain” energy in her lyrics:

  “I just know who I am as a person really well … and like, I know why I write songs. And I know that I am like a nice person.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [25:47]

• On cursing less in her lyrics:

  “I think I'm just feeling less angsty these days. I don't know what it is. I think maybe I swore more as a teenager, as we all do.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [27:52]

• On trusting people:

  “Friendships are like the biggest litmus test for whether or not I trust someone. I think someone being able to hold down the long term beautiful friendship is the best thing that you could do.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [30:32]

• On sophomore album pressure:

  “I didn't realize that [Sour] is insane. And I was 17 when it…all happened. … Aftermath of Sour, like, that was so much pressure. … [Guts] was a lot. … But I'm so proud of both of those records. Even stuff where I'm like, oh, God, that song could have… I could have lived without that song.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [33:22]

• On fan impact and legacy:

  “That is the most special thing ever. I remember being 8 years old and listening to music, and it just meant so much to me. … Young people especially are just so emotional.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [61:05]

• On being political:

  “As an artist, I feel like that's just what you do and that's my job. …But I don’t know everything. I couldn’t list a bunch of statistics … I’m not a geopolitical scientist, but I’m an artist.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [51:08]

• On facing early celebrity scrutiny:

  "I had to detach from it in order to, like, literally, like, be okay. It's just such a crazy experience for … everyone involved."
  —Olivia Rodrigo [57:05]

• On openness about her musical influences:

  “I'm a fangirl. I love music. Nobody can take that away. ...I would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it and everyone thought I was bad. I'd still be writing songs.”
  —Olivia Rodrigo [82:30]

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Timeline of Important Segments (Timestamps)

• 05:12 – Olivia jokes about Disney’s long titles and her Bizaardvark legacy.
• 06:19 – SNL: Hosting/performing, on-the-ground insight, and the “reggaeton/dancehall” script story.
• 09:25 – On writing her album as a “chronological structured mini-narrative.”
• 10:55 – Adjusting original love songs after heartache for more emotional depth.
• 13:09 – The complex inspiration behind writing “love makes you insane and miserable.”
• 15:55 – Album shifts away from pop-punk towards new wave, The Cure, No Doubt influences.
• 18:26 – “The Cure” as the album’s thesis statement.
• 22:12 – Songwriting quantity vs. quality, knowing when something’s good.
• 24:31 – Writing songs that position her as the 'villain.'
• 27:40 – On using curse words more sparingly on this project.
• 30:32 – Valuing long-term friendship as a test of trustworthiness.
• 33:13 – Processing the pressure and aftermath of Sour; learning self-compassion.
• 46:07 – Writing happy songs and the desire to expand beyond being “the sad song girl.”
• 51:08 – On speaking out politically and her responsibilities as a star.
• 64:13 – Girlhood as an accidental but valuable throughline in her work.
• 71:35 – Lightning round: Card games, social media, secret talents, and questions on jealousy.
• 72:54 – Childhood lost to fame: “I feel really sad that I, like, didn’t really have a childhood.”
• 82:30 – On being called out for borrowing/influence, her love for music, and fanhood.
• 84:48 – Touring with influences like The Breeders; fostering discovery in her fanbase.
• 87:03-92:45 – Playful “snack time” chip tasting and banter about food science, ending the episode with warmth and laughter.

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Notable Lightning Round/Fun Moments

• Olivia is a master at obscure card games and carries four decks (Cambio, Nerds) at all times ([71:35]).
• She’s really into yoga, credits it for stress relief on tour ([76:38]).
• Banter about her never having had a “real” job interview; she only had auditions ([77:24]).
• Nostalgic snack-tasting and playful banter about chip textures, spice, and the perils of expired dip ([87:03]-[92:45]).

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Popcast with Olivia Rodrigo is a masterclass in honest self-examination, creative openness, and the nuances of modern pop stardom. Listeners walk away with a richer understanding of Olivia’s process, her maturity, and her enduring commitment to musical and personal authenticity—even as life, and love, get messy.

Transcript

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[John Caramanica]

Hey, it's Michael. Today we're gonna do something a little bit different. We're gonna hand our show over to our colleagues at Popcast the Times pop culture show. It's hosted by music critic John Caramonica and culture reporter Joe Coscarelli. You've heard both of them on the Daily before, talking about Bad Bunny's super bowl performance. Not to mention Joe's interview with Taylor Swift, which was featured in our episode a about the 30 greatest living American songwriters. Except, of course, for Billy Joel, who got snubbed. The big news is that podcast will now be coming out every week as both an audio and video show featuring some of the biggest names in music and culture like A$AP Rocky, Anne Hathaway, Rosalia, and many more. We love what podcast is doing and we want to share it with you. So take a listen to John and Jo's recent interview with the singer Olivia Rodrigo about her new album, her songwriting process, and her thoughts about speaking out about politics. You can find podcast every Thursday at nytimes.com [e-mail] podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay. Enjoy the show. I actually don't think I've ever really done a podcast before, too. I think this is my.

[John Caramanica]

Is that true?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I've never like, sat down and done like a two hour conversation thing, so.

[John Caramanica]

Sure.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Well, get comfy.

[John Caramanica]

All right.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Get deep.

[John Caramanica]

Lock in. Uncross those arms. Uncross those.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like, real loose, real loose, real loose. Everyone take a deep breath. Young Lean taught us how to do breath work. Erykah Badu taught us how to do breath work.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I would trust Erica Badu with my life.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We did fire breathing with her.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, wow. Sometimes that makes me more angry.

[John Caramanica]

Makes me an. That was. I didn't want to tell her.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

You have like, crazy ones in yoga where you're like. And I'm like, I'm hyperventilating now. This sucks. Yes.

[John Caramanica]

No time.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Let's do it. Waiting My whole life.

[John Caramanica]

Yes, Exactly.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Thank you. That's the attitude.

[John Caramanica]

Welcome to the New York Times Popcast. Your bedroom Of Versailles, of Weekly Culture Chat. I'm John Caramanica. I'm the critic.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I am Joe Coscarelli. I'm the reporter.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm Olivia Rodrigo and I'm on podcast.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Finally. Finally. Thank you.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

God, I love you guys. I love this show.

[John Caramanica]

It's very kind and as we said to you just a moment ago, truly on our 1.0 mood board having you here. We're extremely thrilled that you're here. What a special day, Truly, for me as well.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I really appreciate all the work you guys do and I love all of your opinions and certainly not.

[John Caramanica]

I don't know, I don't hear that that often.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

They are true, informed, conscious.

[John Caramanica]

They are thought through. They're thought through. You don't have to agree with all of that.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

No, that's not.

[John Caramanica]

That's not how criticism works. Not how criticism works.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Thank you.

[John Caramanica]

Will you tell your friends,

[Joe Coscarelli]

all of

[John Caramanica]

them, just put it in the group. Just put it in the group chat.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Hell, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Critics are allowed.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, critics are.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You don't need much introduction, but Olivia Rodrigo, the Grammy winning artist, singer, songwriter, behind four now number one hits, most recently drop Dead from her new album, you Seem Pretty Sad for a girl so in Love, out June 12. Very soon, starting in 2021, Olivia burst on the scene with Driver's License, a smash. That was the most obvious.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

You might have been my first interview for that too.

[John Caramanica]

I remember.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I think.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think that happened. We did Diary of a Song. Wait, so you're second semester senior year and you just released your first single?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. First semester. Yep. Not even second. I'm like dying over here.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We knew you were going to have, I think, a long and special career. Before that, Olivia was known for her work on Disney. First on Bizaardvark. Shout out to Bizaardvark.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Shout out to bizardvark. Let's go make some videos. Hey, hey. Let's go make some videos.

[Joe Coscarelli]

If you haven't seen it, credit where credits. Someday you'll have kids and maybe you'll have.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm really having a resurgence, though.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Is that true?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

People will stop me on the street and they're like, oh, my God. I'm like, oh, yeah, I make music. They're like, I love Bizarre.

[John Caramanica]

They're like, that's weird. Are you saying that's weird? Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

They don't have the music stuff comes after for them. They don't care about it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's incredible. High School Music, the musical, the series, incredible long title.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Incredible long, long titles here.

[John Caramanica]

Truly an incredible title.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yes. It Would be insane to think I might actually have a shot at playing Gabriella.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Your first two albums, Sour and Guts, mixed pop punk fury with devastating balladry. That's sort of been your magical formula up to this point. You're swerving yet again on this album. We're going to get into it. We're going to talk about the new work and so much more.

[John Caramanica]

So you are. It's about to get very intense. You're in the roll up. Is. Is rolling. Like, we're coming up to album release. We had the opportunity to go to SNL a couple weeks ago.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Wait. I feel like you should also tell the viewers about how you corrected the script.

[John Caramanica]

Wow.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay, we're ready.

[John Caramanica]

You're ready? You want to go there? Okay, good. So we will. We will tell that story. So we got to watch you host and perform snl. I know it's been and was a dream to do that. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that experience and then we'll talk about our uncredited assist, fact check, writing credit.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. Oh, it was so much fun. I have been dreaming about hosting and performing on SNL forever. I'm such a huge fan of everything that they do. I think just artistically, it's a real feat that they manage to pull that off every week. And even if sometimes you're like, oh, that sketch wasn't my favorite, it's still just so astounding that they're able to do something that high quality week after week. The work that they put in is insane. Getting to, like, witness that up close was really, really inspiring.

[John Caramanica]

They were blown away.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's insane. Like, the way that they work that just. They're such a family. They love each other so much. They get along. They're so devoted to this, like, common mission and cause. I think that's why it works. I think if people were, like, kind of iffy about it, the show would fall apart. But everyone is just so steadfast in their desire to make the best show possible, and it's just really inspiring from an artistic standpoint, like, whether or not you're, like, into comedy or not.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That was my exact experience, because I'm not traditionally a huge SNL fan, and I've been there during the week with artists doing some reporting, et cetera, but I'd never seen a full show. So we were at the dress rehearsal, and we were sitting in the balcony and just watching the behind the scenes of how many people it takes, the sets, the movements. You guys did an amazing stunt where it looked like, people were falling down the stairs the way they did that. I think they posted some behind the scenes on snl. Very gamely dovey.

[John Caramanica]

Literally dovey.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You did your own stunt on snl, but the thing you were alluding to is that the final skit we saw in the dress rehearsal was you and Veronica in the backseat of an Uber. And the driver breaks out into patois. Yeah, into a Jamaican patois rap.

[John Caramanica]

Girl, make me mind explode.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And in the early version of the script we saw, they had you referring to what he was doing as reggaeton.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Right.

[John Caramanica]

And John immediately, like, we're sitting. John and I are sitting right next to each other, and, like, immediately we're just like,

[Joe Coscarelli]

so.

[John Caramanica]

And then at the end, we were sort of like, do we tell someone? Like, do we see something we didn't want to see?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You get flamed on the Internet for it. Did you guys think we managed to relay the message that it was probably the word they were looking for was either dance hall or reggae or Jamaican dance hall. And then when I woke up the next morning, the first thing I got served on Instagram was that skit on Social. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. And then I saw the subtitles, and

[Olivia Rodrigo]

it said, okay, but you, like, started aggressively singing a Jamaican dance hall song, like, really loud. Hell, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Jamaican dance hall.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

You guys saved the day.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I wasn't gonna bring it up, but

[John Caramanica]

that's how the sausage gets made. Just FYI, we're fact checking all music from here on out.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes.

[John Caramanica]

That is one of the big tentpole moments of the next few weeks, you being on snl. And we have been able to hear your album and live with it for a little while. And by the time when this comes out, it's still gonna be a little bit before people, but we can talk about it. We have some details. We'll give some gems out.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A little teaser.

[John Caramanica]

A little teaser. So this album, to me, strikes me as a chronological structured mini narrative about the rise, plateau, high plateau, and then collapse of a relationship. I'm curious, from a writing perspective, are you writing those things in real time as the experiences are happening?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, for the most part. It was. It is chronological and in the order in which it happened in my life. And it's the first time that's, like, happened. And I think it was really interesting for me creatively to, like, structure it that way. But I've never been a person who's like, I'm gonna make a concept record, and it's all gonna be this, and it's gonna Be this way and sound this way and look this way. Like, I. I write songs to, like, process my feelings. So every day when I, like, come and, like, I sit at the piano or I get the guitar, I go to the studio, it's like, what does. What is, like, burning in me to say right now? Yeah, I think it just, like, all comes from the heart, and I think it's not super, like, calculated in that way. And so.

[John Caramanica]

So they sort of aggregated in a way. Like, you were writing songs, and then you took a step back and said, huh? Yeah, it is kind of like, boom, boom, boom.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, exactly. But I'm really happy with the way it turned out. And I think Dan and I, like, sort of, like, after we were writing breakup songs and stuff, we, like, had the fun challenge of going back and, like, actually tweaking some of the love songs on the record and making them a little more honest and more sad and creepy. Like, the song Purple is was originally

[Joe Coscarelli]

a love song, which feels like a big turning point on the album.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's like, six songs, and it's Purple, and it's like. That's when, like, the doubt creeps in. And then the Cure. It's like you flip the record and it's the Cure and the sort of, like, the unraveling, as we say, of this narrative. And so, yeah, I was really happy with the way that it turned out. And sort of after the fact, we've already written the first maybe six songs of the record, and writing the more sad, sort of decomposed songs on the record, we kind of, like, postmortem, kind of went in and changed things and sort of made it a whole body of work rather than, you know, like, little moments.

[John Caramanica]

Is there a specific line or stanza in one of the first songs that you remember being, okay, I really need to reframe this. I really need to deepen this. Is there something that sticks in your mind?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I mean, like, the honeybee lyric, like, having honeybee beat. Honeybee's one of my favorite songs on the record. And having it also tying it back into the last song, I think was really nice for me to just sort of made it feel more like. I don't think that it's a. It's not a concept album. I think that's doing a disservice to actual concept albums. But I think it's like a capsule of a thing. And so, like, little things like that or changing Purple or putting that little honeybee thing kind of towards the end of the process made me feel like, okay, it's really an owl now. And it's really telling this, like, one story.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I would go so far as to call it a concept album. The narrative is so tight, like, what is Good Kid Mad City if not a song, if not an album with a beginning and an end. And then you come back to the beginning. Like, the fact that Drop Dead, the opening track, is, like, essentially before the first date and leading into the early excitement and butterflies of a relationship and falling in love. And one of the things I really like is there's different slices of what happiness in a relationship look like.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

As you say, there's these little moments of doubt that start to creep in. When did you realize that you had an ending? Because if you're writing this in real time, presumably you were, as you know, floating on air as you were in some of these early tracks. Where did you think the album could end if you stayed in that zone?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think I always knew that I didn't want it to be, like, even stupid song to me. I was really inspired by this book, Simple Passion by Annie Arnault. It's like this. She's having this affair with this person, and she's not quite happy. She's kind of just going insane. Like, everything she does, she's reminded of this person. The longing overcomes her. And I was like, really? I was really inspired by just all of the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable. You know what I mean? I think that there's a lot more. There's a lot more to mine there than just like, yay, everything's great. Oh, my God, he's so hot. He loves me type of thing. And so I was always kind of curious about trying to mine these more depressing feelings out of these love songs. And I think initially I thought that that was what the record was going to be. Just all love songs, but trying to inject some sadness into them. And then obviously, sadness in a real kind of more whole way crept its way into the end. I guess when I started making it, I didn't know how it was gonna end. And I think that's how I always start all the records. But, yeah, totally.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you talk about. About the destabilizing nature of love. And there's a song like Maggots for Brains, you know, which you mentioned previously, that multiple songs on this album are inspired by Miranda and Steve from Sex and the City. And I knew that going in before I heard it. And that was one of the songs Where I'm like, this is a very Miranda song, this idea that she's like, you know, my brain is mush, basically. Is that a Miranda sentiment?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. Well, it's from the scene where Miranda getting back together with Steve, and she's like, whenever something funny happens, I always want to tell you about it. Anytime something funny happens, I want to tell you. And it's one of the lyrics in the. In the second verse. But, yeah, that's one of my favorite songs on the record. I really love it. I think. I think when we made that one, like, sonically, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, this is. This feels right. And this feels like the point in time that I'm at. I think I. I kind of knew. And Dan and I, who I made the record with, like, I think I, like, love rock music, and I have such a reverence for rock music, and it's all that I, like, really listen to. But I think going into it, I felt like, a little like it wasn't. It didn't feel exciting to me or something like rock in the traditional sense of, like, power chords, like distortion, blah, blah, blah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's not here on the song.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, but I think a song like that feels like alternative to me without being like, I love Rock and Roll by Joan Jett, which is one of my favorite songs. Love that song. But, like, you know, it was in a more subtle way. And that was more exciting to me than writing some really banger thing, which maybe I love those songs. Maybe I'll do that later. But I think making that song was like, okay, this is the. I kind of figured out what I wanted the sound to be a little bit. Or what was gonna be different about this record.

[John Caramanica]

It's interesting to hear you talk about that style of rock not being as much of a draw as it was in the prior two albums. Cause obviously, there are certain moments on this album that are really living. And 82 to 85 world, you're sort of getting the new Romantics, you're getting the Cure, you're getting maybe little talking heads. I wrote Devo down at one point.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Some new order. Yeah, a little new order. But what does that sound and style signal to you that the pop punk and the sort of chords that you've been playing with previously don't signal.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. It just felt more exciting. There was something about the restraint of it that felt nice, or I was just really obsessed with that type of music, too. While I was making it, I did Gossenberry with Robert Smith, which was insane. I'd Always been a fan of the Cure, but since meeting him and getting to hang out with him, I kind of went back and listened to all those New wave bands like that. And I was living in England at the time, so obviously you get a lot of English band inspo. For me, in songwriting, the sentiment always comes first. And so I knew that I wanted to write songs about how it felt to be in love. And love feels like that to me. It kind of feels like that vibe like that. Just the emotional quality of it. I can't describe it. It's just like that's how it felt. It didn't feel like. You know what I mean?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You also used, I think, a clever trick where you connect the new wave of the 80s with music influenced by new wave. I think, like, there's some songs on here that sound like Latigre, you know, instead of Bikini Kill. You know, both Kathleen Hannibal touch points, but different. Different sides of it.

[John Caramanica]

Big Olivia fan. Kathleen Habit, of course, you know, Kathleen. Kathleen Hannah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I had a thought when listening to My Way, that there's some no doubt in there. I know you're a big return of Saturn Love.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

No Doubt.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you mentioned the Cure, who spanned both of those eras, who continued making music through that. And they are a through line through the album. You allude to Just like Heaven in Drop Dead, the first song. Then there's a song called the Cure, which will be the next song that people hear from the album that comes after Purple in the tracklist. And that's the moment where you say you're punning, obviously, on the band title in some ways, but you say, buff's not fixing me. It's not the be all and the end all. Can you talk a little bit about the writing of the Cure and what that song means to the album's story?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I think that song is the thesis statement of the album. You seem pretty sad for a girl so in love. I remember making that song and feeling so excited, like, okay, I know what I'm, like, trying to say with this thing. I love that song so much, it makes me emotional to listen to it now. I don't know how it started. I was on my couch and I played the chords and wrote the verse lyrics and thought that that was really interesting and brought it to Dan and we finished it together. And, yeah, it just means so much to me. I think that that was a realization that I had and you can only have when you're, like, in a real big girl relationship. I think that for so long, when I was younger I was always reaching for something that was like, oh, well, if I have this, then I'll be happier. If I have this thing, even in my career, I'll be happier. If I have this guy and he loves me the way I always thought he would love me, I'll feel better about myself. Know, slowly, throughout the course of my life and this relationship that I'm talking about, I kind of just realized that the issues that you have aren't just going to be solved by some other person. Like, something can distract you, but, like, it. And also, they're your issues.

[John Caramanica]

They're your issues.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I. I also even think that falling in love actually makes those issues even clearer to you. I think that's why it's so important. Like, some of my friends are like, well, I'm not gonna marry them. Like, why would I, you know, be in this relationship with them? I'm like that. It's like the way that you know yourself the most in this world. Like, you could you know yourself so deeply and so intimately by, like, falling for people and being raw and gross and, like, making mistakes. And I think that that's such a thing that's unique to being in a romantic relationship. And so I think I was also figuring that out. I think I was in a romantic relationship that was actually real and intimate for the first time and being like, whoa, this is holding a mirror to me. And I'm seeing sh. That I don't like about myself. And that was a tough realization. And I think that that's embedded in the Cure, too. And, yeah, I really love the song. It's one of my favorite songs I've ever written.

[John Caramanica]

I think it's also in the context of the album, you know, where it sits, you know, just after the middle. But it's long. You're lingering on it. It's like. It's like you're telegraphing something just simply by saying, you're gonna have to sit with this for five or six minutes. You're coding the meaning in the lyrics, but you're also coding in the structure. It feels like.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that sort of, like, the apex of the album, too. Like, I think in all the love songs leading up to it, like, there's a hint of, like, maybe this or dissatisfaction or, like, oh, I really miss them, and that's why I'm sad, or blah, blah, blah. And I think when it gets to the Cure, it's, like, the most honest part, where, like, all the artifice is stripped away, and it's. I love a Song, obviously. I mean, love writing, like, a power ballad that, like, really builds. But, like, when I finish listening to it, it feels like it's some sort of, like, catharsis or, like, some sort of acceptance of, like, that this is your fate.

[John Caramanica]

How do you know as a songwriter when something is worth writing a song about? And especially, I mean, look, I haven't been in my 20s for at least a few years, four or five years, but I vividly remember the intensity of feeling. I remember the dynamism of being really up and then really down and then going back to how you felt a week earlier and kind of, like the instability of that. And if you're experiencing feelings quite intensely and you have a creative outlet for it, what takes it from something that's in here to, like, damn, I gotta get this out. Is there a specific intensity of feeling? Is it a detail? How do you know?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, it's a good question. I don't know. I think you really. Every time is different. I'm a big quantity over quality songwriter. I write all the time about lots of things, and then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good. I really don't know. There's not like a. Like, I'm never like, oh, I have an idea, and it's gonna be an awesome idea. You just have to, like.

[John Caramanica]

You're not stingy about it?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

No, I'm not stingy about it. I have some friends who are the opposite who, like, write five songs a year, and they're the best five songs you've ever heard. I write, like, 250 songs that are the worst, and then I write, like, three songs that I love, but I just love the process of writing. I love being alone and, like, playing my guitar or, like, writing things down. It's, like, so much fun for me. I think I know if I've, like, stumbled upon something good, if I really want to listen to it, like, a week after I write it, or if it makes me feel like, oh, yeah, that is how I was feeling. And that's a really clear, concise way of saying it. But I don't know, it's different every time.

[John Caramanica]

And you're working it out in the room as well. Like, you have your step in the process, then you bring it in with Dan, and then sort of. I'm sure there's things that don't make it past that.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Meetings change so much. Even, like, you guys listening to the album. I listened to some of the mixes before we sent it to you guys, and it's like, even, like, a Month after making it, it just feels so different in your body. Like you just have totally different associations with it. And I don't know. There's no science behind. I'm still figuring it out. I don't know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You mention the ugly sides of even being in love, and one of them that you touch on on this album in what I think is an interesting way is jealousy and being territorial, which is something that has been present in your earlier music, but not, as you say, from the vantage of a big girl relationship. This song, My Way that I mentioned earlier strays a little from the central relationship narrative, and I. You make a pretty direct choice to target it at another woman in the tradition of great songs like Jolene or Misery Business or Better Than Revenge. And given your standing among young women and how important of a songwriter you are to your audience, did that feel like a risk to write a song that pointed where you call yourself a petty bitch?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, you know what? I haven't given it so much thought. I think I was just really in the heat of the moment writing it, and that's how it is. And sometimes you're like, I really need to get this out and I'm fucking pissed. And maybe isn't the most evolved thing ever to say, but I really loved the song and I loved the way it turned out, and I love the Sonics. I was going for, like, some Gwen Stefani vibes in there.

[John Caramanica]

No pun intended, no doubt.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

But, yeah, I really love that song. The album isn't very angry at all, and I think that's the one Angry Touchstone. But, yeah, I'm really proud of it. I stand by it.

[John Caramanica]

Is it okay if you're the villain? Is that okay?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Whatever.

[John Caramanica]

I don't know. Not being serious. Cause, like, I think it's fun to play that character. It is fun to play that character. But I also think that certain songwriters and certain huge pop stars have had anxiety over the years of, like, I'm known to be one style of. But I am a complex person. I have these different sets of feelings, but sometimes they won't put it in songs. But there were probably, like, two moments on this album where I was like, I think she might be okay with being the villain. Like, I wonder. And I wonder if you think of it in those terms.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Gosh, it's a really interesting question. I've never really thought about it. I don't know. This sounds like a cop out, but I just know who I am as a person really well. And I know my intentions and things, and I know Why I write songs. And I know that I am like a nice person. And like, I.

[John Caramanica]

Like, I'm not suggesting that I'm not a nice person.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

No. But I think that that type of criticism only really hurts when there's like, something in it that I, like, think is like a little bit true. Like, if something. If someone were to like, criticize something that I was already doubting, I'd be like, oh, God. Like, that's the stuff that gets to me. But I don't know. I also think that pop music, in a really beautiful way, everyone is projecting their own experiences onto you. Like, that's the type of songwriting that I do and that's. I love that type of songwriting is why I got into it. Like so many heroes that like, do that type of songwriting. And so I don't take it so personally when I listen to my favorite pop songs, I'm thinking about my experiences and like, me in that pop song, like, and how I felt with like my ex boyfriend and blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm not really thinking about that person and like the exact specifics that they're talking about. It's.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And people can relate to feeling angry and pissed and jealous and territorial and whatever it is. It's like that is as valid of a feeling as what would traditionally feel.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

And I think the narrative will reveal itself over time. I think, like, whatever. I think that that's out of my control and under my business.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Fair enough. Since driver's license, one of the other things you've been praised for is your ability to drop a well placed curse word, especially an F bomb. You know, Vampire also has a great one in its chorus. It feels like you're a little bit more sparing with it this time around. I mentioned Bitch. I think I counted two other F bombs. There's a goddamn in there. But I thought you really saved the most impactful one for what to me is the defining line of the album and sort of the thesis statement outside of the Cure.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

They say modern love's.

[Joe Coscarelli]

They say modern love's a cruel endeavor.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

To that I say fuck it. Whatever.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Was that intentional, the cutting back? So it was not to consider it a crutch to really save it for those gut punch moments?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Honestly, no. I remember Dan and I the other day were like doing like clean versions of all the songs and we're like, damn, this. Usually this would take us two days back when we were doing sour and this took us an hour. But no, I think I. I think I'm just feeling less angsty these Days. I don't know what it is. I think maybe I swore more as a teenager, as we all do.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Maybe I curse way too much, which I've only realized now that I have a 2 year old who repeats what I said.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And. And now I'm like, oh, I really need a tight.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's tough. Dan, my producer, has a two year old too. And we hang out with her obviously a lot in the studio. She goes up to her dad the other day and she's like, daddy, why does Olivia say fuck so much? And I was like, ah, see, this

[Joe Coscarelli]

is what I'm trying to. This is what I'm trying to avoid.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I was like, oh, she's got me by name. She's really funky. The other day also, we were in the car, we like picked her up from school or whatever, and I was singing along to the song on the radio and she's like. Starts crying. She's like, daddy, I hate it when Olivia sings. And I was like, oh, oh, I gotta reconsider a lot right now.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Probably because she can associates it with Daddy going to work.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, that's true. Oh, wow.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

That's true.

[John Caramanica]

Wow, that's grim.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Kind of, you know, like it's.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Her psychiatrist is going to be half that.

[John Caramanica]

Literally a five years of therapy down the line for that. I can't listen to Olivia Rodrigo. I can't.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's really, really funny.

[John Caramanica]

Oh, that's really. Wow. The tension on this album in the arc is about trusting another person and also trusting yourself. There are so many moments on your last album where I feel like it's you singing about how vast the world has become and how challenging that was to navigate. And how do you identify in the real world? Not in art, but in the real world? How a person is trustworthy or is a person trustworthy? Like, what are the things that are your either triggers or touchstones and how have those things changed over the last four or five years? Yeah, how do you know if someone's trustworthy?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

God, that's such a hard question. I don't know if I have, like a profound answer.

[John Caramanica]

That's all right. This is. Look, the podcast is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We'll work it out together.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, podcast is at least 10% therapy.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I know. I feel that. I don't know. You know my biggest red flag? This is not profound at all. But like, when I hang out with someone and they. Daddy gang, Daddy gang, clock clock 3000. No, I. Whenever I meet someone and they're like, yeah, like a few of my friends, they Just like they just ghosted me. I don't know what happened. I'm like calls coming from inside the house. Like, that's really.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, a few. It's like one maybe.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's maybe like okay, something. But I don't even know. Like I.

[John Caramanica]

That's a real spill. That's a real spill.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Like having like intense falling outs with your friends. Like, I've never really had that in my life. I think maybe once or twice. But like when people. That's a repeated occurrence.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Sure.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm like, interesting, interesting, interesting. I think friendships are like the biggest litmus test for whether or not I trust someone. I think someone being able to hold down the long term beautiful friendship is the best thing that you could do. That's like you have emotional depth, you could care about other people and other

[John Caramanica]

people trust you and other people trust other people trust you, which is huge.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I think friendship is a big indicator. But I don't know, I'm still figuring. I'm sure I'll get betrayed more in my life. Who knows?

[John Caramanica]

I think vampires, I'm still figuring.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Of course, vampires are really good example of trying to figure that out in real time. And maybe being fooled by someone who you thought was interested in you but then was really after your fame or your notoriety or trying to get something from you.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Bleeding me dry like a goddamn vampire. I think that when I listen to that album it's like, it's so interesting when you're in it. You like can't tell what it is. But when I listen to it like these days I was rehearsing for a show the other day and. And like listen to all the songs back. It just like really is like a 19 year old disillusionment with the world and just feeling like so confused. And I feel like I'm definitely less disillusioned these days. But like looking back, yeah, it was like betrayal and like finding your footing. And I think, I think I did. I remember going into the album being like, I don't want to write about like being newly famous because that sucks and like I hate when people do that. And I think that there was hopefully like it was in there like a little tactfully sprinkled in. But I think that that was a huge part of my experience. But I don't think that it's Unlike any other 19 year old going to college. You're just like trusting people. You're so open. You're around all these people that you've never been around and you're like making all These mistakes and figuring shit out in real time.

[Joe Coscarelli]

How do you look back on Guts, not only artistically, but as a moment in your career? Because you talk about this pressure that comes with a sophomore album. You know, people invoke the sophomore slump a lot in terms of, I think, exactly what you're saying, where it's like your whole life goes into your first album, then between your first and your second album, if the first one does really well, maybe the only thing you have to write about is sort of what it's like to become newly famous and is that enough, et cetera. That album was successful on its own terms, of course, But I wonder how you look back on how it was received and how it performed and how that influenced what you did on your third album. Because I was really struck by the fact that this album doesn't feel like you're searching for smash hits necessarily. It felt like you wanted to make an album. Album, a capital A album with a beginning, middle, and end.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Thank you, you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And I wonder if any of that came from either how Guts went or didn't go for you.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, I. I think it was hard. I mean, looking back, I have so much compassion myself. Like, Sour, that was crazy. What happened with Sour was. Was crazy. And at the time, I didn't realize how crazy it was. Like, obviously I was like, wow, I'm so happy. I'm grateful. Yeah. But I didn't realize that that, like, is insane. And I was 17 when it, like, all happened. It's so wild. And, like, if I. If I were to, like, be an outsider and, like, watch that happen to 17, I'll be like, oh, my God. Like, so I think I couldn't. I didn't realize it at the time, but so I have, like, a lot of compassion for myself. Even after the aftermath of Sour, like, that was so much pressure. Like, how it was so insane and just, like, people on the Internet and, like, all this crazy stuff. And you're. When you're. 19, you don't know who you are in general. You don't know who your real friends are. You don't know who you want to date. You don't what, like, you really want to be doing with your life in a real concrete sense. And so it's just. It was a lot. And looking back, I'm. I'm so proud of that record. I think putting it out, I felt a little like, oh, God, it's like, I'm never going to make anything, like, as big and as good as sour and blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, looking back, I'm. I'm so proud of so many of those songs. Like, I think, like, All American Bitch is, like, my favorite song I've ever written. And I think, like, bad. I remember, like, thinking bad idea right at the time. It's like, that's too weird. Like, And I'm like, I love that song so much now. And, Yeah, it's just. Just. Just having a little space totally changes your perspective on it. But, yeah, I'm really proud of both of those records. Even. Even stuff where I'm like, oh, God, that song could have. Like, I could have lived without that song. It just. You know, I don't think I'll ever regret, like, writing honestly about where I am in my life. And I'll always have, like, compassion and love for.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, I was gonna say. So you hear them both as art, but also as documents of, like, the intensity of the experiences.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

For sure.

[John Caramanica]

This album feels very settled to me. Like, obviously, you're going through an emotional arc, but you have clarity about that emotional arc. It's not. You're not zigzagging. You're kind of like, I think I see what's happening here.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Even if what I'm seeing is bad enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Even if it was tough. But it's like, I see what's going on here. And does that track with how you live off the. Off the album? Like, is that when you're talking to your friends, do you feel much more lucid as an assessor of the world? Tell me about that.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

God, for sure. But I just think that that's growing up. It's an interesting thing to grow up with the people who listen to my music. Like, I feel like we're kind of around the same age, like, going through the same things and just, like, the lucidity that I see things with, but it's not unique to me. Like, none of it is. So, like, I just. I think you just collect so many experiences that you kind of know yourself more and know the world more. And I don't know every album, though. I feel like I'm learning about myself, but I'm also, like, learning how to write songs. Every album, I don't think I'll ever feel like, okay, I know how to do this. Like, perfect. I got this. I, like, I know exactly what I want this to be. Like, every time I sit down to write a song, I feel like I'm learning it for the first time. And I think that that's what keeps it, like, exciting and fun as a creative person is, like, there's never. I have, like, tips and tricks, and I, like, know all the pop songwriting tricks that you're supposed to do and all that stuff. But I just really feel like I'm, like, endlessly learning, and that's what. I'm so grateful that I get to do this job and just, like, keep being curious about stuff.

[John Caramanica]

One thing that I really enjoyed about this album, there are two songs that are on opposite ends of the album that both feel really unadorned. So it's like you're approaching both this part on Honeybee, and then I think it's. Is it less on this part? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, okay, so there's an aesthetic choice here that's similar, but different sentiments. And I wonder how you think about the pairing of the sentiment of the emotion of the lyrics with the production choices. And how do you know when it's time to deliver the restrained thing and when it's time to be like, we're going straight to the new wave or we're going straight to the pop lines?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Dan and I love to throw shit at the wall. And I think also this record, the feeling of being intoxicated with love for someone, it feels very rich and orchestral. And Honeybee, there's so much in there. There's a choir and there's a string section, and there's this beautiful piano in it, and there's just Feels really rich and. Cause that's how it felt at the time. You know what I mean? That's how it felt to be in love. I think a song like Less was added, obviously, later in the album making process. And I think. I think, yeah, it was us trying to practice a little bit of restraint. We were also trying to practice a little bit of restraint with the last song. And we were like, oh, this needs a big bridge.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That cigarette. That one is produced by a lot of production.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, there's no restraint.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We talked about the new wave influence. And I wonder, on these songs, on the piano ballads, essentially, what were your sonic touchstones for those versus the more upbeat songs?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I was talking to. Do you guys know Wise Blood?

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, of course.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

She's so great. And she sang on SNL with me. She's such a huge fan.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Beautiful harmonies.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Beautiful. She has one of the greatest voices. She's angelic, beautiful, wonderful person. But I was talking to her about it, and she just turned in a new record. She's like, yeah, it's so funny. I tried so Much different stuff. And tried. Tried to like explore so much and you just like always go back to like what you're good at at the end of the day sometimes too, which I think that there was just a part of me I was like, I just want to write a singer songwriter song that's like classic and that's like sort of my sensibilities sometimes. And I love exploring and doing other stuff. But like that's sort of like 12 year old Olivia fell in love with songwriting for songs like that and so I really like that one. I think that was maybe the first song on the album, Honeybee, and it was like one of those ideas. I got home and I wrote the whole thing on piano and just thought like, wow. I feel like I really expressed something that was so hard to describe. And in the context of the album, I find it to be actually the saddest song on the album. I find it to actually be devastating, which is really. You seem pretty sad for a girl so in love to a T. It's this like. It's this love song that's filled with so much hope, but also like a sort of knowing, you know.

[John Caramanica]

Right, Exactly. It's like it's the music playing in the background very softly.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Exactly.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The crash is on the other. But yeah, it takes me back to even pre Driver's License, your first big song for high school music called the Musical the series All I Want.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

All I Want is Love that Lasts Is all I Want Too Much to Ask.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And that's one of these very yearning, extreme piano ballads. Who songs like that were you playing on the piano when you were 12 and 13 and a kid? Like when you wanted to just belt and yearn and feel Fion Apple was

[Olivia Rodrigo]

always my, like, yearner piano queen. I got really into Tori Amos while I was making guts because I felt like she was like a piano yearner, but it also felt like edgy and rock. I love her punk on the piano. I was really into the Dresden Dolls too. Like, that was punk piano. There's something that I'll always love about just like a plain old piano song that I just feel like is from the heart. Singer, songwriter type of vibe. Yeah.

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[Olivia Rodrigo]

The thing about AI for Business, it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slashed repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off. Deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM. What is your guys favorite song on the record? Can I be narcissistic?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, of course. How do you say me plus you equals heart? How would you say it?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I don't know. I haven't been talking about it a lot.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, we're decide right now. Me plus you. We'll call it me plus you. I think me plus you.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Or is it you plus me? It's you plus me.

[John Caramanica]

You plus me.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

See, I don't even know. I don't even know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, so you plus me. We'll call it you plus me equals.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Equals greater than three heart. Something. I don't know.

[John Caramanica]

We're going to workshop this.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The lyric is you plus me forever.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think it's a masterpiece.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Really?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I really do. I. I wrote that in my notes. I'm not just saying to you, oh my God. It's very Cranberries to me. A little sixpence on the richer. It's like that jangly 90s, you know, I just, I think it has. It both has that line in the bridge that I mentioned earlier that I love. That I think is the greatest away message on this album. You're a little too young for aim away messages. But that's where you put the quotes that when you were really for the

[John Caramanica]

Drake quotes feelings on the day. If there were Drake quotes, if there

[Joe Coscarelli]

were Drake quotes at the time, that's that to me. And I just think it has a great build and energy. Yeah, that's far and away my favorite on there was that. You weren't expecting that.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

That's never been anyone's favorite. You're the first person who said that to me. I'm really.

[John Caramanica]

What are other people's favorite? What's your. Well, I mean, I'll tell you mine, but what's yours?

[Joe Coscarelli]

She said Honeybee.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I love Honeybee also.

[John Caramanica]

Okay. But I'm sorry. Respond to. Respond to Joe's admire choice.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

We almost cut that one from the other one. Come on.

[John Caramanica]

Are you actually serious?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, it was one of the first we made. And you know how you. You just always like the song that you made?

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, sure.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

I no carve our names into the car seat leather. As the owner of a very nice car, do you know how stressful I found that line? And I was like, look, maybe in my 20s, I've seen some. Maybe in my 20s, I love them that much. You leather. Do not touch the car seat leather. Do not do that.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I know. I met people.

[John Caramanica]

Oh, that's wild that you were thinking of even cutting. That's insane.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, that's so.

[John Caramanica]

Not to me. Okay, so bang.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Begged.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

You plus me, honeybee and drop dead.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay.

[John Caramanica]

And begged.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Wow, this is so funny. You guys give opposite answers than everyone else in my camp. That's really interesting.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What are we hearing behind the scenes?

[John Caramanica]

What are the hits?

[Joe Coscarelli]

What are the fan favorites?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Everyone loves the Cure the most.

[John Caramanica]

I mean, the Cure is obviously, it's a great song. It's a centerpiece. But when I was listening to. In the context of the album, I was like, this makes the most sense in the context of the entire album because it really is connective thread. It is connective thread from A to B. And. But in these micro moments. And also, I love, like, I love a wailing ass. Like, hell, yeah, I love a whale. You know, but like, even the turn of phrase, I mean, you know, I wrote down a bunch of different lyrics. Even the turn of phrase on begged. Nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it, I begged. And just the sophistication of that sentiment, the understanding that just because you may have gotten something, it doesn't mean that it was the thing that you thought you were chasing. And the fact that you actually might be spot. Like you might have invented the solution, like you might have invented it out of thin air. And then it wasn't actually real because you were sort of forcing it. Yeah, no, I like incredibly sophisticated thought

[Olivia Rodrigo]

process Yeah, I think that's a difference also between, like, an album, like, sour and this album, like, when you're in a relationship that's deeper and you're older and it's more nuanced, it's less like, fuck you for doing this to me. Like, it's like, oh, I think that song was like, oh, yeah, this happened because I set this up. And, like, you fell short, but I didn't really. You never prom that you were gonna do that. And, like, it's like a. It's definitely more nuanced take than I feel like I had the emotional capacity to write about before.

[John Caramanica]

Sure.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

And so, yeah, that song was. That song's really special to me.

[John Caramanica]

That it's very. Yeah, I found it to be very savvy. Like, just, like, very emotionally savvy. And I think, you know, like, obviously, as people who cover music extensively, and just like, I feel like you feel like you get to a point where you're like, I've heard every metaphor. I've heard every detail. And then someone has a turn of phrase, and you're like, oh, I didn't hear that one. So that was a great moment for me.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm interested in your development as a. And how has your lyric writing changed between albums two and three versus between albums one and two?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I think, honestly, the challenge for me was in writing a love song. Like, I think that was a daunting task for me. Someone who was very known for writing breakup songs. Writing breakup songs and being angry and sad, and people love that. And there obviously is that weird, like, singer's curse thing where you're like, do people only like me when I'm sad? You know what I mean? So that was. I think that was the. The challenges or trying to write something about being happy and also making it interesting. And also, I think it was just, like, a thing that I wanted to prove to myself that I didn't have to be miserable to write a song that I liked.

[John Caramanica]

Did you used to think that happy songs were, like, less valid than sad songs?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I mean, when I was a teenager, for sure. Like, when you're a teenager, that's the shit that you listen to because you're so depressed. You know what I mean? But I love. I mean, as I get older, I think writing a beautiful love song, some of them. Some of my favorite love songs are fucking devastating. Like. Like, Love Song by the Cure is like this. Like, however far away I was, always love you. However long I stay, Kill me. That's so sad and so Beautiful.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It was just me trying to write lyrics in a more mature way about love that weren't so black and white, you know, like, you can. All of these things can exist at once. You can be in love and also feel insecure, and you can be in love and also feel depressed and you can, you know, break up with someone and still like, love them. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's just all of these things can be true at once. And I think obviously as a teenager, you don't have the emotional, like, capacity to really internalize that. And so obviously it wasn't reflected in the albums, but so I think that that was the challenge lyrically.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Do you look forward to the day when you can look back at this album and this time in your life and say, oh, 24 year olds also maybe don't know that much about themselves or the world? Like, are you. Is that. Is that, like, is that exciting to you that eventually even like this where you do things?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm like, I'm so stupid and naive.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. I mean, like, it's that. Do you think. Do you think I'm not trying to call you out? I'm just like. The way you look at your teenage years now, like you will. Whether it's in your 30s or 40s or later, you'll probably look at your 20s similarly. Like, is that something you look forward to, that self knowledge?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Hell yeah. I'm so excited about it. It's a really interesting thing to have. Have so much of your emotional whatever, like, chronicled.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's insane. I can't even imagine. All I have is blogs and tweets and articles.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

There's a lot there, though, but not

[Joe Coscarelli]

to the level of detail that you do. And the fact that all of those feelings along the way of yours have meant so much to other people that they will live on long beyond when you stop feeling them. Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. It's really beautiful.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a very unique job you have.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's a very unique thing. I'm very, very lucky. I still to this day don't always understand how I got so lucky. And that sounds like I'm. I think. I'm not trying to demean myself. I think I'm talented and I work hard. But going to a show and looking out into the audience and seeing all of these girls who are 9 years old crying to these songs, and it so deeply touches them and it's so clearly like affecting their life in a way that I could have never, ever imagined. It's just such a. It's a really, really wild thing that I feel like really privileged to be able to do. I don't really know how it. I can't. I'm not like masterminding it. It just is like this beautiful human connection and I just feel so lucky that I get it in such a potent form in my job. And I just feel very, very grateful and I hope that I can like keep being a positive thing in girls lives like that. It's something that I think about a lot.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Speaking of that audience and the platform that you have, I think one thing that separates your generation of pop star even from the one that immediately precedes it is your comfort being explicitly political and using that stage to speak to young, impressionable fans who care about what you say. You memorably spoke out when Roe v. Wade was overturned. You've since come out against dice. You've spoken about Gaza. Have you received any pushback behind the scenes? Anybody telling you that that's a risk to your business to use that stage and the audience? You have to espouse whatever in this day and age, sometimes controversial views?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Honestly, I feel like I'm surrounded with people who are very like minded and I really appreciate that. No one has ever been like, don't do that. No. And I always say, like, I, I really try to stay educated on things. Like I make a conscious effort to try my very best because I think that's important for everyone. But I don't know everything. I couldn't list a bunch of statistics about things. I'm not a geopolitical scientist, but I'm an artist. And what I do for my job is this is how I feel and I present it to people. And I think it would just be disingenuous to be like, I don't feel heartbroken about, about what's going on in Gaza. You know what I mean? Like, that's just like, as an artist, I feel like that's just what you do and that's my job. But I don't know, I also feel really weird taking like credit, being like, yeah, I'm so, like, I always feel like I could be doing more and saying more and stuff like that. So it's a, it's, you know, I don't know.

[John Caramanica]

Was it something like that sort of purity of purpose and desire to speak your truth in a variety of ways, whether it's emotional or social, political. Is that something that comes from your household? Is it something that comes from, you know, did something. Were you around a bunch of people in your teenage years. Who really encouraged that in you? Like, if you sort of trace it back to its origin more, where do you think that it came from? Because you've been doing it. This isn't something you arrived at this year. This is something you've been doing for basically the entire time that you've been very famous. And usually that's exactly the stretch of time that people don't do it. So what do you think was happening to you in the years prior to that that gave you the sort of sense of self to be able to do?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, really interesting question. Honestly, it's gonna make me emotional, but my parents are awesome. And my parents never made me feel, like, stupid for saying something or never made me feel like I was being too much or too emotional or oversharing. And I think I grew up in a household where, like, me being outspoken and performing and saying what I believe in and being ambitious was just so supported. And I think my parents. I have the most wonderful parents in the world. I was a child actor, which is really crazy. Cause my parents are like the least stage parenting parents you've ever met in your whole life. Um, but it just, like, bred, I think, a sense of, like, ambition in me and like, wanting to express myself and, like, do things and hopefully be a positive, like, influence on something or someone. I don't know. But I don't know. I think. I think I owe that to them. They really always made me feel like I could do anything or say what was on my mind without, you know, feeling ashamed.

[John Caramanica]

And so there is in your mind, like, a moral component to being an art. If you're gonna be a person who has a voice, who has sway, who has influence, you think that some degree of responsibility kind of comes with that?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I think it's just a job. I don't even know if I would say it's your responsibility to step up. But I just think it's like, it's the same way that I talk about how I'm sad about a breakup on a song. It's like the same. It's the same thing. It's the same emotion. It's just maybe expressed in a different medium.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Most recently, there was some Internet detective work, as there always is around you, people claiming that you liked a post about protesting. The Met Gala.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Enjoy a Damn gala.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Did you not attend for moral and political reasons? Or is that an overread?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, gosh. I just. I'm not really a fashion girl. Really? I'm not a fashion girl.

[John Caramanica]

I just. Look, also, can I just Say candidly, many people who attend the Met Gala are not fashion people. And you know who you are, and I know who you are.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Go on.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Gosh. How do I choose my words wisely? I just. It, it, it. I think, I think I've. This is my third album. I think that I, I feel. I don't feel like I, I, I need to do things that don't, like, bring me joy or inspire me or feel me or feel aligned with my, like, values or something like that. Like, I, I, it's just, it's not, like, as fun or exciting anymore. Like, what's fun or exciting is, like, talking to you guys or making a song that I really love or, like, make a music video that I think is cool.

[John Caramanica]

Right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You can say no. You're at the point in your career

[Olivia Rodrigo]

where you can say no to things. You can be a little more discerning, and I think that that's cool. And I.

[John Caramanica]

And not a setback, like, because I know in the first waves of fame, you're just like, I want to say yes to everything.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It may never come again.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah. Like, literally, like, there were doors behind the doors I didn't even know were doors that I could open. But now that you've seen the doors, there's just. There's no, like, plenty of doors.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. I mean, and it's, It's. Sometimes it's fun and sometimes it's exciting, but sometimes I just, I don't know, I feel like what's really fun and cool is, like, making stuff that I like and hanging out with my friends who really know me. I don't know. It's not super complicated, I suppose.

[John Caramanica]

Speaking of Internet detective work, there is a lot of sort of public speculation about your relationship with Taylor.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Ongoing speculation that the Disney alum and the Heiress tour performer are not in friendly terms. Taylor was retroactively credited on one of Olivia's biggest hits, Deja Vu, due to an apparent interpolation of Taylor's song Cruel Summer.

[John Caramanica]

You're at a Paul McCartney concert in Los Angeles, and you guys are walking out at the same time, and then there's people on the Internet being like, are they facing each other? Are they facing. I wonder how stuff like that strikes you. Given that I imagine, you know, how you feel and, you know, the state of play. How do you view that layer of scrutiny?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't really, like, read too far into it. I think it, like, comes to the territory and it's par for the course. And I, I think if I dove into every Internet detective sleuth that, like, got things right or wrong about my life or any of my relationship. I think I just go crazy. Like, there's just not enough time in the day.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, I think maybe it started at such a high level for you around driver's license that anything after that, for sure, you were, like. You went through it. You went through people trying to figure out who is this song about and why? And was that nice to get that out of the way early on? Maybe it wasn't nice to go through,

[Olivia Rodrigo]

but no, I do think so. I think it made me feel detached from it. I had to detach from it in order to, like, literally, like, be okay. It's just such a. Such a crazy experience for, like, everyone involved. And I. Yeah, I think I just had to learn to detach. And I think that that's something that I hopefully am good at these days. Still trying to, like, detach from people who don't know every little detail of my life. I think you just have to. Otherwise, you just go kind of crazy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I also think there can be value in someone like you setting the record straight or saying what you really feel about something when people are trying to guess how you feel. One of the other things you've been a lightning rod over bringing back a conversation from 20, 25 more years ago is, like, the idea of the baby doll dress and what it means to riot girl and what it means to dress subversively or other people who say, no, no, it's infantilizing, or it's played out as a symbol.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Like, that's what makes me so upset. Not even for me, like, I don't care. People could see it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. What does it mean to you? What does that mean?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

What's really, like, disturbing is I feel like I actually wear. I have worn outfits that are, like, maybe revealing on stage. Like, I've been on stage in, like, a sparkly bra and, like, little shorts and, like, w. That's fun. I felt cool and comfortable in that, and, like, that wasn't inappropriate. But me, like, fully covered up in a dress that people deemed to be, like, childlike was inappropriate. And I just think just, like, shows how we just like, really normalize pedophilia in our culture. And also, it's just as this. This, like, rhetoric that we're fed as girls since we're so little, which is, like, don't wear that, because then a man is gonna sexualize your body, and it's your fault. Like, it's so weird. And I didn't think that I looked sexy in that at all. I was like, this is so cool. I feel like I'm like Kathleen, Hannah or Courtney Love, all these people who are my heroes. And I felt cool and comfortable in it. And I just think if we start dressing in a way that's like, oh, I don't want some fucking freak to think that I am sexy like a baby or some crazy thing like that, I just think it's losing the plot a little bit, you know, I'm just very protective of younger women and girls and I just. I don't ever want them to be big fed that rhetoric, I guess.

[John Caramanica]

And also protect their right as they grow up to do dressing. Whatever it is, whatever, it ends up

[Olivia Rodrigo]

being a weird cult. It's like, yeah, you shouldn't be responsible for some guy sexualizing you in a way that was never your intention. Like, I. Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

One thing that I was curious about listening to this album, you talked about girls in your audience. Seeing 9 year olds, 10 year olds cry. What do you want people to actually take away from the album? Are you telling them a story about. About a romantic relationship? Are you telling them a story about emotional development? Are you just making songs you hope people sing along to? What's the thing? Obviously the finished product is a collection of songs, but there's more. What do you want those girls to listen to on the day it comes out to listen to? What do you want them to feel and think?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I want them to kind of be along for the ride and the story. Cause this is a story. It's like with a beginning, a middle and an end. Um, I think like, the goal for any piece of work for me would be like, to provide some sense of, like, emotional catharsis. I think that would be amazing.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Or some sort of, like, understanding or. I don't know. I just feel like growing up, if I heard a song that spoke to me and I was like, oh, yeah, that's how I feel. And it helps me better understand myself and the way I feel around. I don't know, insert issue here. You know, I think that that's the dream and I would love it if that was somebody's take. Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Do you feel like your fan, Like, I assume you have fan interactions that are more one on one, not simply like in a. In an arena or in a stadium. What do you hear in those conversations? Like the sort of micro moments like, what are you hearing from those girls?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, it's so sweet. I mean, especially like the young girls.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, yeah, that's sort of.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I mean, I love that. And I think, like, sometimes, I don't know, people have been like, oh, don't you want to, like, lean into your older audience or something? Like, that's so cool that an 8 year old girl finds my song to be moving. That is the most special thing ever. I remember being 8 years old and listening to music and it just meant so much to me. And the fact that I could maybe be a semblance of that for someone is so exciting. And I don't know, I just think that young people especially are just so emotional. I love hearing stories from girls who have never held a boy's hand and they're like, traitor is my favorite song. My friend at school changed friend groups and it devastated me. And it's like that is their whole. Turns their whole life on its head. And it's so cool to watch them process all those feelings. And also in an environment like a concert, where it feels like this communal processing of emotions. I watched this documentary the other day. It's called Spirits in the Forest. Have you guys watched it? It's about Depeche Mode.

[John Caramanica]

Oh, wow.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's about Depeche Mode, but it's not a concert film about. It doesn't have anything really to do with the members of Depeche Mode. It's like these five people who are huge Depeche Mode fans and it follows their leading up to like the last Depeche Mode concert in like Berlin or something. Oh, wow. God, it's so beautiful. And it's just about like how going to a concert is not even about like the lighting or like what someone's wearing. Couldn't metalize. It's like these people and the stories that they bring to this concert. Like one of the women who the documentary talked about, she like hit her head or something and she woke up and she didn't remember anything about her life. Didn't remember where she was, didn't remember her name, didn't remember her husband's name, but she remembered every single Depeche Mode lyric. And when I woke up, I didn't. I didn't remember anything of my former life except one thing, which is Depeche Mode. Like, how incredible is that?

[John Caramanica]

Sounds like a Daily Mail story. It's wild. No, but it's just like a good one. Yeah, you know, they're all good. That's wild.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

That's incredible. You guys should watch it. But stuff like that, it's like, it's just so cool. That I get to play a show or do something. And all these people bring their own experiences of my songs to this show. And we all share it together. Like, it kind of doesn't. Like, I feel like a concert these. It's like 75% of what makes a concert great is the audience. Maybe even more. Maybe it's like 80%. It's like, that's the number one musical instrument or cool thing that does all of the talking for you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you become this bard of girlhood. And you talk about the influence of Sofia Coppola on what you've done. And you work a lot with Petra Collins, and that's been a subject and a muse for her as well.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

And.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you mentioned this peanut gallery idea of like, oh, don't you want to speak to your older audience? You know, you look at what Sofia Coppola has done, and she did the virgin suicides decades ago, and she's still telling that story in Priscilla from a different angle. Do you feel like that's ever a subject that you will have to let go of and move on from as you age and mature? Or do you think it could remain a forever theme for you?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't, like, come into my album being like, this is girlhood. Like, I think I just try to, like, be like, this is where I'm at right now. And I think that just maybe is girlhood, because I feel like a girl. But I'm 23, so I guess I'm a woman now. But, you know, I don't know. I just think. I just think there's something beautiful about, like, this shared experience that we all have. And even, like, something like Driver's License was a really special experience on so many levels. But. But that song meant so much to me. Cause it was about my experience, but also it just, like, united other people in their own experience of like, a first heartbreak or something like that. Guess you didn't mean what you wrote in that song about me. I think whatever experience people, if it's girlhood, if it's something else, like, if whatever they attach. Whatever meaning they attach to the song, I would be happy with.

[John Caramanica]

There's one line that jumped out at me on this album. Cause I. I think on earlier songs and earlier albums, something that comes up here and there is like, you encounter someone. You're encountering a guy, and he's delivering you a line or a bit, and then you have this awakening that he's delivered the line or the bit previously, right and then that's that moment of, like, wait a minute. Like, that's practice. That's rehearsed. But then there's a line on this album where you say, all my ex boyfriends have heard these lines.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You call yourself out.

[John Caramanica]

I was like, right? But I was like, but to pick up on Joe's question about sort of girlhood as a topic and maturity and how songwriting evolves. I heard that line, and I was like, oh, this feels like just the tiniest suggestion of leaving some of that other energy behind and saying, like, I do, too. I do it too. Am I right to pick up on that as, like, a theme in that song? And also maybe broadly speaking, on the album.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, it's like we were saying before. I think, like, the album, hopefully, is my most nuanced approach at a relationship. And, like, it's, you know, a real relationship where two people, like, know each other and love each other deeply. Isn't like, well, you were mean to me that one time. There's just so much ebb and flow. You're just, like, learning about yourself and, like, your shortcomings and, like, the ways in which you have failed or have, like, you know, or sabotaging certain aspects of the relationship. Like, I think hopefully that there are moments in the record where I kind of acknowledge my own part and maybe some, like, negative parts of the relationship.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, of course.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

No, no one's talking about.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No one's innocent.

[John Caramanica]

No, it's innocent love.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Holding that mirror to yourself, being comfortable playing something like a villain or calling yourself out for it. Also, very Sex and the City. It got in prepping for this. It got us. We did it.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Did you guys watch Sex in the.

[John Caramanica]

It fell.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Countless, countless amount of times. But it did cause us in a meeting to go around and do who.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Who.

[John Caramanica]

Who we were.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay, wait, tell me who you guys are.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You want to guess?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm like, one of the girls.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes. We kept it to the core. We need to do men later.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I've heard people be like, I'm Magda. I'm like, girl, get out of here.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We did a game, a main, and a riser. Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay. I think you're. I think you're a Charlotte Main.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wow.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

In the cartight.

[John Caramanica]

Wow. Damn, son.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's interesting. John, I think, accurately, this is actually a twist said that I'm. That I'm a Miranda with a. With a.

[John Caramanica]

With a dash of Samantha.

[Joe Coscarelli]

With a dash of Samantha. And John is actually the.

[John Caramanica]

Wait, let her guess. Let her guess. I don't know. Let her Guess it's okay. You can get it wrong. It's totally fine.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You don't know. Yeah, like that.

[John Caramanica]

There's no wrong answer. Except all the wrong answers.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Can't believe you called me a Charlotte.

[John Caramanica]

Sick. Sick. I love it. I love to see it.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh my God.

[John Caramanica]

I know. You're really on the spot. This is part of the pressure.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I want to say Carrie with a dash of Samantha.

[John Caramanica]

Very close.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay.

[John Caramanica]

I'm actually. I feel like I'm a Carrie with Charlotte.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Which is. Is that not what you identify as?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, No, I think I'm a Charlotte with a Carrie.

[John Caramanica]

Charlotte first. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this was instructive because sometimes the answer that I might arrive at myself, maybe it's. Maybe it's a little bum, you know. But they arrived at it for me.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I mean, John fell obviously a carry. Like John is obviously a vain, derogatory.

[John Caramanica]

Like. What does that mean?

[Joe Coscarelli]

With all the complications. With all the complications that entails.

[John Caramanica]

Unbelievable.

[Joe Coscarelli]

With all the complications. Yes. Okay.

[John Caramanica]

Yes, fine.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Should we hit a couple questions in our lightning round?

[John Caramanica]

Whatever, man.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Love this. That's the best part. It's groundbreaking journalism.

[John Caramanica]

It's important. Also, you know, you have to build lore. Also, we're building lore.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I have a custom Sex in the City shirt that I meant to wear today that I did not. It's a one of one made for me by a very dear friend and I'm very sad I forgot to wear it today.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I love that. I love that. I have a few like. Like, you know how like cast and crew gets like a like a thing at the. I have a few Sex and the City rap stuff.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I don't know how I got it like from ebay.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Gift. Yeah, from ebay. Maybe it's fake. I don't know. I still wear it with pride.

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[Joe Coscarelli]

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[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, so 52 cards in the podcast deck. Each one corresponds to a pre written question. Some are deep, some are shallow. And we'll see where the fate takes you.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

All right, this is so fun. Thanks for having me, you guys.

[John Caramanica]

No, this is a.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We're a dream. What do you got?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay, I got two of diamonds. Two of diamonds or two of sparkles as I say.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Nice. Okay.

[John Caramanica]

Okay. Two of sparkles.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Okay. Again, we continue to learn that people's relationship to playing cards is beyond. I didn't even know you could have unusual relationships to playing cards.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I have the most unusual. I love playing cards so much. I. I travel with four playing cards on me at all times because I have a game. Yeah, four decks.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What do you play?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

My managers got me a Bottega carrying case for my.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Just for your cards.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's like so bougie because I don't go on anything.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We gotta get you a podcast.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna mail you a podcast.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I love that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We're gonna mail you a podcast. Wait, what games do you play?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I play this game called Cambio that's like I think golf called golf in other places. And then this game called Nerds that I really like. That's like multiplayer solitary.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're like deep cutting card games.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's no go fish for me. Like wow, no woolst solitaire. Like I'm trying to be on my phone less and so if I'm like having that itch. I'll just play solitaire.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wow.

[John Caramanica]

Can I just briefly identify myself as an older person?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay.

[John Caramanica]

Does the name the game Egyptian Rat Screw mean anything?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, I've heard of that big and

[John Caramanica]

my world Camp Egyptian Rat Screw champion.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wow. We're gonna play me and you after this.

[John Caramanica]

I was killing it. I was annihilating the older kids. It was a great time in my life. Like, one of my early, like, highlights. It was a great moment. All right. Two of sparkles.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Two of sparkles.

[John Caramanica]

I might just refer them as sparkles from now on. Okay. This is a tough one. Some of these are light, some of these are hard. This is a tough one, I would say. What is the most difficult thing that's happened to you in your personal life that your career prevented you from dealing with properly?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, my gosh.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's the deepest question.

[John Caramanica]

And we've asked. We've asked a couple people have pulled this. It's been. It's been quite revealing. I.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I've led a very charmed life. I haven't had anything really awful happen. I think this is, like, in no way wo is me, but I think I feel really sad that I, like, didn't really have a childhood.

[John Caramanica]

Well, that's. I mean, basically huge anecdotal. Like, on Disney, you were busy.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Like, I'm totally okay. But yeah, I was.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, that. That's. That answer is like, that's the answer. That's the answer.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little sad.

[John Caramanica]

Is it? Is it a persistent kind of like, low grade, low hum? That's something you think about a lot, but not maybe at intense spikes, but it's kind of always, like, hovering for you.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, it reveals itself in certain ways. It's just a push and pull. I live one of the most amazing life and I get to travel the world and have all these incredible experiences and talk to cool guys like you. But, like, I. Yeah, I didn't ever. I wasn't in high school. I didn't have a good group of friends in high school.

[John Caramanica]

I was just gonna say, was it tough to form friendships?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Super hard. And it is even hard, I think for me. I have a wonderful group of friends now that I'm really, like, lucky and grateful for. But I do feel like I'm so ahead in certain areas of my life and then maybe, like, in some, like, social areas, I'm, like, a little behind.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, sure.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Just because I was. I'm a homeschooled only child. Like, it was very lonely upbringing, and I think that's Why I, like, wrote so many songs too is it made me feel less alone and. Yeah. Made me feel understood and. Yeah, it's all good. It's all good. No, no, but it's also.

[John Caramanica]

It's also not if it's not even if it's not all good, it's great that you have the perspective, you know, it's not. It's not something you're going to wake up 10 years from now and be like, damn, I never thought about that. You're in acting.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think that actually leads me back to something I feel on this album, which is that you're clear eyed about not being clear eyed sometimes. And that's a. That's a cool place to be.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. Not being clear eyed. I like that next album. Okay, okay. Nine of clovers again.

[John Caramanica]

Amazing. I learned something every week on the show.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Clovers and sparkles.

[John Caramanica]

Sparkles. What Sparks your jealousy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, my God, you're pulling the hard ones.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I know. I mean, listen to the album, you'll see. Oh, yeah. I don't know. I mean, like, romantic jealousy is definitely a thing that I've talked about in like all three albums. Yeah, it definitely gets like less all encompassing though, as I get older.

[John Caramanica]

What about non romantic jealousy?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, like just a really nice bag or a pair of shoes or just like interpersonal jealousy?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I mean, I get jealous of people's songs all the time. Like, not in a way where I'm like, ugh, I don't like you. But like, like that's. But that's also a really great feeling to like, hear someone's song and be like, God, I wish I wrote that.

[John Caramanica]

For some people, jealousy is very animating. Really, really a good motivator.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Really a great motivator. It's like an indicator that, like, this is what I want. This is what deep down I desire, you know?

[John Caramanica]

That's real spilled.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, that's real spilled.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right. Pull another card. Maybe you'll get a less intense one. You're really.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I know. My God. The hard hitters. All right, okay. Ace of clovers again.

[John Caramanica]

This is easier. What are you good at? Besides what you do for a living?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, oh, that's a good question.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's hard cards, apparently.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Cards

[John Caramanica]

that you're the first person to say they have four decks on hand at all times.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. What else? Secret talent.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm really good at cards. I'm really good at yoga.

[John Caramanica]

Okay.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I really got into it last tour because I was really stressed and now I'm really good and I can like, do tricks and Stuff you like.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You Sky Tang Adrian. Like, who's your. On the.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I do love yoga with Adrian. No, I. I do the thing where

[John Caramanica]

you, like, hold yourself on the hands and. And your legs are jutting out.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's break dancing.

[John Caramanica]

I've seen videos I can do.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I don't. I don't know if I can do that quite yet. A girl can dream. A girl can dream. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. What am I good at? You know, I think I'm a good friend.

[John Caramanica]

Damn.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I think I'm a good friend.

[John Caramanica]

Really just upended the question. Damn. You really just rewrote the question in real time. It's unbelievable.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's like in a job interview when they're like, what's your greatest week? You're like, I work too hard.

[John Caramanica]

I know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Have you ever had a job interview?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

No, I've never had, like, a regular job, which is sad.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You've had auditions?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I just had auditions.

[John Caramanica]

I. I think I'm a good friend. Wild. Incredible answer. I couldn't have even anticipated that. Really good.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, two more cards and then we'll. The deranged snack comes.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm so excited. Seven of spades.

[John Caramanica]

Seven of spades. A good one. You read your own DMs?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Do I read my own DMs?

[John Caramanica]

Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yes, I do.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I do.

[John Caramanica]

You go into the extra mailboxes. You go in the second and the third one, see what. What the action's like.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I like to like the verified.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But you do.

[John Caramanica]

You read. You don't. The team's not. It's not outsourced to the team.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I know.

[John Caramanica]

I'm password.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You read your DMs, you're a digital native.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, Yeah. I was born in 2003. Like, I know what's up. Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Do you find it to be over overwhelming that people have that direct. Especially you know, so much going on? People have direct access to you. Like, do you wish to. Do you, like, ever brick your phone? Do you ever, like, put it under the couch and be like, not for two hours.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I delete Instagram and TikTok off of my phone all the time. I'm like, never on Twitter or like, Reddit or any of that stuff. That's scary.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Sure.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

But I just delete it all the time. But it's hard. It really is tough. The social media stuff, it really is real and it, like, fragments my days and fragments my attention span and, like, it's really not good.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Anything I'm addicted to.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Pull one more card.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yay. Okay, finale. Okay. 10 of clovers.

[John Caramanica]

All right. Is that a poker hand?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Is that like not quite right? Okay.

[John Caramanica]

Okay. This is a good one. This also, it's in between serious and light. When's the last time something did not go your way career wise? And how did you cope with it?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, yeah, Wow. I don't like talking about when things don't go well. I like just glossing over and hoping that no one notices.

[John Caramanica]

You can talk about the cope first.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

You know, I've made so many mistakes or things. I look back and I'm like, oh God, that was so not me. Or like whatever. But I really do think, and I'm not even like having a cop out answer. I. I think that when you look back at any artist's career, I think like the cream really rises at the top, you know what I mean? Like, you don't. All of my favorite artists have put out bad songs or like done things that are or like not great or whatever, saying a bad note or whatever. I think pound for pound, I'm like proud of my work. And so I think at the end of the day that's hopefully what people will remember.

[John Caramanica]

It's funny you say that because sometimes I feel like when I get flack for being a critic and they're like, how could you say a negative thing about blank? And I say to them, I'm like, who's your favorite artist? And they'll say, whoever it is. And I'm like, every song they've ever made is perfect.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

No, true.

[John Caramanica]

Every song you liked as a 10 year old you still love. No, you have all these touch points. We're all critics. Everybody views the world that way. And so, yeah, I think that's the exact right way to think about this kind of thing.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's like, and I think like my mistakes of the past have like led me to where I am now. And like nothing teaches you who you are better than doing something that's like, oh, that felt really bad. You know what I mean? Like that really informs everything they do after that. And so I'm like, I'm happy to have made mistakes and like done things that are maybe cringe or made a song that wasn't that good. Like, it happens and it's all, it's all part of a cool life.

[John Caramanica]

And you're less self conscious about that stuff now than you might have been, you know. Sour era.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I think also, I mean, my last two records, I was like, I made them when I was like 17 and 19. So I'm like, no, it's. I did the best with what I could at the time and like, with the people that I had around me at the time. And so, yeah, I don't know. I used to beat myself up over stuff a lot. I used to be really, really harsh. And like, something I think shifted in me a little bit around. I'm like, how awesome that I get to make music and, like, feel connected to other people and make music videos that I think are cool and, like, talk about things that are important to me. Like, that's awesome. Like, I think coming at that from a place of joy is just the only way you can really do it. Cause it's like, yeah, it's awesome. Pop music is awesome.

[John Caramanica]

It's a true, genuine gift that animates our lives.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But on that note, like, one thing I've always appreciated about you is that you've been so forthcoming about your influences and people who are your heroes and what you're trying to live up to. And not all artists are like that. Some people are very stingy with giving credit or citing influence. And I think you've remained open hearted about that. But it's come back to bite you a couple times in terms of songwriting credits or album covers or people trying to call you out for borrowing or whatever it is borrowing a little too much. How have you pushed through that? Those, what I assume were pretty hard times in your creative vision being called into question. And how do you remain open with what it is that inspires you when stuff like that has happened?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I think it's a really hard time just personally, but I don't know. I'm a fan girl. I love music and. No, nobody can, like, take that away. That sounds so cheesy. But, like, I love music and I feel so lucky that I get to do what I do. And I, like, love so many songs. And, you know, I've grown up being surrounded with awesome music and awesome bands and like, I truly just do feel so lucky. And I love writing songs. And like, that's just. I would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it and everyone thought I was bad. I would still be writing songs. Cause I. It's what. What I love to do.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But I like that you call yourself a fan girl, because I feel like some artists, especially at your level, are ashamed to identify themselves that way.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

You gotta be a fan. What's. It's so boring not be a fan of music. There's so much good music to be a fan of. Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

And it's like. But you weave it into your songwriting part. You know, just like the act of being enthusiastic about music is often in your songs, a proxy for the act of being enthusiastic about a person, which is something, I mean, I think, to Joe's point, I do think people wonder, those things that were tough for you early in your career, did that leave a frost between you and other songwriters? Is there a frost between you and Taylor? Is that something that hovers over your mind? Is it something that you think is a construction of the people who are doing Internet detective work? How do you view that now that you're a few years removed from the initial ruptures?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I don't know. I think I tried to not let it, like, get to me or upset me. I, I think I just try to keep it trucking. I think there's no, it was so long ago. Yeah, there's no use in, like, harping on it. And yeah, I, I, I just try to make songs that I love and try to be kind and good to other people and supportive of other people. And I've always, like, tried to be like that. And at the end of the day, I think that's, that's all you can do.

[John Caramanica]

And being supportive is like, again, I was looking at the opening act list for your tour, and I was just like, this is like a very wide range of styles of artists, but also it's like you're identifying people who you want to take under your wing a little bit, maybe. Is that sort of safe to say?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I mean, I'm just, like, huge fans of all the people that are opening for me. I'd like. And friends too, and so, so, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could sit here and be like, yeah, give them advice and blah, blah, blah, but I feel like we're all just flying by the seat of our pants and all, just, like, taking what comes, when it comes. And. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. People always would ask me that. It's like, are you giving chapel advice? And, like, blah, blah. And I'm like, no. Like, she's giving me advice. Like, it's like we're all just, like, figuring it out as it comes.

[John Caramanica]

We're also in the chat has this.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But it's cool that you've done that. I mean, to the fangirl thing. It's cool that you've done that backwards and forwards. You've taken the breeders out on the road. You know, you've put your, you've put on your heroes and given them an entryway to a New audience. And you've done it with up and coming acts. So I feel like that's been an important.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, I mean, it's not calculated like, oh, God, this is gonna look cool or something like that. I just like love all those bands and love all those artists and I'm like, so stoked that I get to be around them and hear them play.

[John Caramanica]

The Breeders thing definitely felt radical. I remember just when that announcement came out, I was just like, why don't more people. This is like such an obvious idea

[Joe Coscarelli]

in terms of like, like show your lineage.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, exactly. Backwards and forwards you're presenting. Also, especially with you with such a. Like a young and open eared fan base. Like, what you're saying to them is like, hey, if you like me, there's actually a whole. Yeah, there's a whole universe behind me for sure. And a lot of people don't do that because I think people are anxious. I truly think people are anxious that,

[Joe Coscarelli]

like, that's what I was getting at about hiding their influence.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah. That they're gonna show too many something to a fan and they're gonna be like, oh, actually, I like it's.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I like that better.

[John Caramanica]

And that's why, you know, that people have very young artists opening for them. I mean, there's a bunch of business reasons of course, as well, but, like, the idea that you as an established performer, like, what I would actually like to show you is something that was meaningful to me and that actually makes the whole show kind of an Olivia show. Cause you're like, this is Olivia.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

This is what made me.

[John Caramanica]

This is what made me. And then you get to listen to that, and then you get to listen to me and you get to actually draw the lines. And I think that's more people should do that. Totally, genuinely. A smart and underutilized move.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Thanks.

[John Caramanica]

No, for real.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Snack time.

[John Caramanica]

This is. I.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Are we all eating this?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, yes, we have to eat this. We are all eating this.

[John Caramanica]

You're so lunacy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Every episode of Popcast ends with a snack. Olivia Rodrigo walked over to our snack table and picked these. Hers Long hots, sharp provolone. This is a Philly clot classic got from Wawa last weekend. And then this leftover dip that I brought to our super bowl hang.

[John Caramanica]

I'm sorry, wait, at the last time,

[Joe Coscarelli]

this is shelf stable.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Should it be in the fridge?

[John Caramanica]

Should it be? Okay, I was like, it was soft as such.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, no, it came from the shelf. It came from the shelf.

[John Caramanica]

Okay, can you just look into it before you subject our guests? To eating this.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Food poisoning.

[John Caramanica]

I know. I just, like. I have to, like, take a stand. I have to take a spider.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's expired.

[John Caramanica]

Can you smell it? Like, it's expired.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We don't have to eat it. Actually, it's expired.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, shit.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm sure it's fine. I don't think this really goes bad. I don't believe in expiration dates, but I will not make you eat this.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I can't say I've ever had, like, dip on the shelf before.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, see, I love a French onion dip in a can on the shelf. No refrigeration. That's like, one of the greatest known to man. You would think. So they figured it out.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Look, I don't ask questions.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm not going to to make you eat this. This is a Doritos 3 ranch jalapeno flavored dip.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It smells.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It smells like it should, in my opinion.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, it smells like Taco Bell.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Smells like Taco Bell.

[John Caramanica]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It doesn't smell bad, but I'm not

[Olivia Rodrigo]

going to make you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm not going to make you eat it. I'm not going to make either of you eat it. I might try it and if I end up in the hospital, you guys will send me a really honest with you man.

[John Caramanica]

Like, this is. This should. We should have.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

You're going to have hives tomorrow.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We didn't ever pick it. I was mostly there as a distraction. But you're a sicko.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah. This is absolutely nuts. That out of everything on the. I've got Korean snacks, Japanese snacks, British snacks. I got the Phillips.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you. This is the flavored Life chili crunch off Champion flavor. Long hots and sharp provolone.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Wow.

[John Caramanica]

Shout out, Chris Ryan.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[John Caramanica]

Philly King. Shout out. Zack Baron. Philly King. Carrie Batten. Carrie Batten.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Nick Sylvester. We got a lot of Philly in our.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Joel, Embi.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Really excited.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You did your best. Thank you for what you did to the Celtics.

[John Caramanica]

Mike Schmidt.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, that's. That's a great smell. That is a great smell. That's a.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's unlike anything I've ever tasted, to be honest. It almost tastes like a peanut. A peanut shell.

[John Caramanica]

Oh, wow. Oh, it's tart. It's tart. Interesting.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A lot of. Lot of depth of flavor. And the spice comes all the way at the end.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

This would be really good with a sub sandwich, though. I understand.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wow.

[John Caramanica]

Wow.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Cheesesteak and some of these long hots and sharp provolone flavors.

[John Caramanica]

Cheesesteak, sprinkle, crunch them up. Sprinkle them in the cheesesteak.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I love these.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

That's a little interesting, but cheese and

[Joe Coscarelli]

hot pepper flavored chip is straight out of my brain.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Gotta make it happen.

[John Caramanica]

You want some more?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh, yeah, I do.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, go in.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I do.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Really good. Two spots. Spicy for you, John?

[John Caramanica]

No, it's actually quite right.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Are you anti spice?

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, I just have a very tender stomach. Regrettably. It's hitting in just the right way. Like it's just the right amount of like pepper or whatever it is right at the back.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's fine guys. I've had such a good time.

[John Caramanica]

Oh no.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Oh my God.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'll miss you.

[John Caramanica]

I'm gonna visit you in the hospital.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'll miss you. I'm gonna try this dip. I'm gonna try this dip.

[John Caramanica]

Next episode of Popcast is bedside at the hospital.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

There's a guy dog.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're.

[John Caramanica]

You're wild. It's fresh. You're actually wild. It's fresh. That has been here for four months.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

The entirety of podcast that sat there.

[John Caramanica]

I'm going to live. Do you have anything that you want to say to Joe before he goes?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Parting words.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Let's rank these chips. What do you got out of 10?

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I'm coming back for more.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I feel like you're mixed in the. In the facial reaction but you just coming back.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I can't decide if I like it or not. I think that's why I keep coming back.

[John Caramanica]

Moving in a lot of directions.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I can't really place it. It's almost like salad dressing tasting. It's spicy, right?

[John Caramanica]

But it's in sort of like in sequence.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah, you're like.

[John Caramanica]

It's kind of like mealy and then it's like, oh, it's unctuous. And then you're like, oh, it's sharp. And then I love a her goes a lot.

[Joe Coscarelli]

In general though, I feel like the hers ridges are really strong.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah, I've shouted out.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think my one of my favorite chips all time are the better than a ruffle. Hers ketchup.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Ooh, ketchup.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Flavor is extremely good. Hard to find but this is. I don't know. Yeah, you go. You go first.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I give it a hard six.

[John Caramanica]

Wow. Okay, but it's like a six. Like is it a good six? Like six trending upwards or six kind of like. I'm just trying to be nice.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

No, like solid.

[John Caramanica]

Solid. Just living right there. Okay. Six. I'm gonna say it's an eight.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Wow.

[John Caramanica]

And I'm gonna say it's eight. The only thing that's not working for me is. And I will say this is a hurdle hers chip and maybe even a lay's chip problem. To me, the kind of when you crunch it, the immediate mealiness of the potato, you feel it's like it has a thinness to it. It's not quite a full crunch.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

It's a kettle cook.

[John Caramanica]

Yeah. I want something where I'm really like not fighting it, but there's a heft to it. And I feel like the hers, like they dissipate extremely quickly once you start chewing them. And then all of a sudden you're just left with like a layer of spice. And so that's the only part that' working. But it is a. It was an adventurous ride.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It was.

[John Caramanica]

It really was like zigzag left, right up, down, like it's a cool. It's a cool trip.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think.

[John Caramanica]

Shout out food science.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think I'm a seven and a half.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I wish it was spicier. And I wish I had a sandwich.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

I wish I had a sandwich. If it was a sandwich, it'd be a nine.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a great side.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Yeah. Yeah. It's not so low. Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Olivia Rodrigo.

[John Caramanica]

First of all, Olivia, thank you for being here.

[Olivia Rodrigo]

Thank you guys for having me.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Thank you for being here.

[John Caramanica]

What a blessing. Happy to have you here. Thank you so much for coming me.

[Joe Coscarelli]

For months, years, even John has been saying, we'll see you next week. This time I mean it.

[John Caramanica]

Every episode of podcast [e-mail] podcast like and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us on Tik tok and Instagram. Follow us to the Olivia Rodrigo tour. We'll be back next week.

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