Legaia Michonne (2:09)

Thank you so much for having us.

Tejal Rao (2:11)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Host (2:13)

So we did this call out on the show where we asked people to send in questions for you guys to call a number that we gave them and to ask whatever they wanted to ask of our new restaurant critics. And the response was, honestly, overwhelming. Like we could be here for hours. There were hundreds of questions that we received. And so I want to start the conversation by asking you guys one of the things that I think a lot of people are very eager to understand, which is how does one become a restaurant critic? What was your path to this work? Legaya, let's start with you. Wow.

Legaia Michonne (2:54)

So I Am a bit of an accidental food writer in that when I was growing up, I don't think that we even talked about there being such things as food writers. I grew up in Honolulu, and my mother is from the Philippines. My father is from England. And so my mother, when she came to the United States, she famously says that she didn't even know how to make a pot of rice. And so my dad did all the cooking. And being from England, of course, his dad dish was curry. And, yeah, the classic English dish. The classic English dish, I have to say, did not resemble any curry. That is actually really an Indian curry. But I thought it was delicious. In my household, I think I thought of food as mostly something for survival. So I definitely didn't grow up as a gourmet. You know, in my house, we. We drank Tang and, you know, there was powdered milk, and I ate Spam, which I do think is an underrated meat product that you can use as a flavoring agent, like prosciutto.

Host (4:01)

Wow.

Legaia Michonne (4:01)

But so I didn't grow up as a gourmet. And it was really only when I moved to New York that I started to become more interested in food. And I was working at the New Yorker magazine and writing lots of short book reviews. And then one day, I had a shot at writing the restaurant review, and I guess the rest is history. From there, I started writing restaurant reviews and eventually came over to the Times, and here we are.

Host (4:29)

Tejal, what about you? How did you arrive at this career?

Tejal Rao (4:33)

I grew up in a family really obsessed with food. So my mom was born in Uganda. She's South Asian. My dad was born in India, and I was born in London and grew up moving around a lot. So we lived in England and also Kuwait and Khartoum. We moved to France when I was about 9 years old, and I would go over to my neighbor's house and cook with her, and I would collect recipe cards, kind of like other kids might collect baseball cards or something. I would get recipe cards for chocolate mousse and for French pear tarts, and I would study the recipes and I would make them sometimes. And, wow. I was really a little lonely, maybe. And I'm really interested in food and cooking. And I studied literature in college, and then I worked in restaurant kitchens for a few years. And I did know I wanted to write about restaurants. Like, I think I had it in the back of my mind, but it seemed like such a crazy dream to do it. But I was able to start writing about restaurants for Timeout for Edible Brooklyn. Edible Manhattan. The Atlantic had a food blog for a while, so I was able to get a few pieces about food and restaurants published. And then I got my first job as a critic at the village voice in 2012. And that newsroom was like going to journalism school or going to food critics.

Host (6:04)

School, you know, legendary place.

Tejal Rao (6:06)

Yeah, yeah.

Host (6:08)

You're both coming to this job at a moment where the position of restaurant critic is changing. There are two kind of aspects of that change, right? First of all, you guys are not gonna be hiding your identities. That's a big piece of this. And the other part is that you're not just gonna be in New York City, Tejal. You're based in the west coast, and you're gonna be kind of reviewing restaurants all over the country. So I wanna take those changes one by one. Let's start with the an. Tell me about that. Why be open about who you are, not disguise that right now, I think.

Legaia Michonne (6:47)

That the idea of the anonymous critic was always a bit of an agreed upon fiction. A certain restaurant that was expecting to be reviewed would always have photos of all the restaurant critics in New York in the kitchen. So even though the critic, you know, we make reservations under fake names, and we do everything in our power to sort of slip in unnoticed. But often critics were recognized. So it seemed that moving forward, especially at this time when it's so difficult to maintain anonymity without literally being a member of the CIA, well, why don't we turn this around and turn it into a strength where by showing our faces, we can build relationships with our readers? I think that whenever you read a critic, you want to know something about this person so that you can know if you agree with them or not. Can you trust them? Is it okay that sometimes you agree with them and sometimes you don't? So I think that's the hope here, is that by showing our faces, by doing video, by having conversations like this, we can share a little bit more of ourselves and help. And help readers understand our thinking and just give them more insight into how this all works.

Host (8:01)

Do you guys have any worry that doing so is going to potentially skew the experience that you get at a restaurant? Do you get the sense that, you know, you might have restaurants that create these very special experiences for you guys that the rest of us plebeians might not get if we go in?

Tejal Rao (8:19)

I mean, we're still making an effort when we go to restaurants to slip in anonymously. So we're not making reservations under our own names. We're not announcing ourselves.

Host (8:30)

Got it?

Tejal Rao (8:31)

Every now and then we might get recognized. It has happened to me a couple of times, but it actually doesn't happen consistently, which is really interesting.

Host (8:41)

So let's talk about the geographical question here. Why expand the footprint of the job? And, you know, in that question, I think, is another one, which is, why should this job cover the whole country? Does that make the job more difficult? What are the benefits of that? And, Tejal, why don't you start us off, since you're coming to us from California, right?

Tejal Rao (9:04)

Yeah, I'm in LA right now. I mean, I think it does make the job more difficult, but I think it's really worth doing. You know, there's so much happening in the restaurant scene all over the country. If we focus on one city or if we think of New York as the whole scene, we're just missing out on so much. If you want to kind of tell a complete story of restaurants in the U.S. you have to look everywhere.

Legaia Michonne (9:31)

I think Tejal's absolutely right that, you know, what we want to write about is restaurants, and what are they saying about this moment in time, this moment in America and who we are? And to really understand that, we have to go everywhere and we have to go to cities and small towns and really try to understand what's going on. I think it makes the job very exciting.

Host (9:57)

Okay, let's get to the most fun stuff.

Natalie Kitroeff (10:02)

Just how do you do it? How do you pick a restaurant? What time of day do they go out to restaurants for these reviews? I want to know how you plan your whole day and have enough room in your stomach. Make sure to, like, eat no garlic for three days. What is the preparation process? How do you pick the dishes you're going to try? Do you order, like, a bunch of dishes off the menu so you get a good cross section and just not eat it all? When you have an experience that isn't great and the server comes back to ask you, how was your meal? Do you answer honestly, or do you just, like I do, say it was great. Thanks. What if you really hate a certain kind of food, like tongue or something, and that's what they're serving? How much does the service you receive at a restaurant impact your overall impression of your meal? Do they have to, like, finish the whole thing? And if they don't finish it, do they take it home in a doggy bag?

Host (11:06)

So break down for me what this job is like. What is a typical week like in the life of a restaurant critic?

Tejal Rao (11:15)

It's a lot of going out to eat and a lot of kind of researching and sitting at my desk. I'm traveling every other week, essentially. And when I'm in another place, my days are crammed with as many meals as possible. And then when I'm in Los Angeles, it's a little bit gentler and slower. And, you know, I'm only going out a few times in the week.

Host (11:38)

How many meals can you cram into one day? Like, I mean, there's obviously the standard three. Right. But do you go beyond that?

Tejal Rao (11:46)

I will say breakfast is not my favorite meal and I prefer to sort of work up an appetite and then start with lunch. But I will occasionally do an early dinner and a late dinner.

Host (11:58)

A bang bang.

Tejal Rao (12:00)

That's really intense. Or just maybe a drink at the bar and try one or two small things to see. Do I want to come back here and let me get a sense of the place and see if it's worth coming back for a full meal, which doesn't really count as a dinner in my opinion, but I do that quite a bit and then go to the real dinner afterwards.

Host (12:22)

Can I ask, sorry to get really specific here, but, like, how many hours do you have to put in between an early dinner and a late dinner in order to consume the amount you need to consume to be able to rate the food?

Tejal Rao (12:34)

I mean, that'll depend on, you know, it's nice to walk to the second place and feel hungry or to have a little bit of time in between. But I think it's really important to go to a place with some excitement and appetite and you're not really giving a place a fair shot if you don't get there. Wanting to eat, hungry, excited to eat. Yeah, yeah, that's really important to me. My appetite is the only thing limiting me. I would do more meals in the day if I could.

Host (13:06)

Yeah, same. Okay. Legaya, your typical week.

Legaia Michonne (13:13)

So, because I'm based in New York and I do about three New York reviews for everyone out of town, so I'm not traveling as much as Tejal, but I am eating out a lot because I also have to look ahead to the top hundred New York City restaurants list, which will come out in June.

Host (13:32)

Epic.

Legaia Michonne (13:33)

And that means I have to go to all the restaurants that were on last year's list, but there's also restaurants that were on the list a couple years before and then plus new restaurants. So there's both keeping up with that and scouting new restaurants. I have done the double. I really. The double dinner is really hard. I think that because that's not a.

Tejal Rao (13:55)

Part of what happens, not what we want to be doing.

Legaia Michonne (13:58)

Part of it is that you can only really take a few bites of anything. It's very difficult, especially if you're at the restaurant and you don't finish a dish or you're only taking a few bites and people at the restaurant become concerned. And I don't want to cause any stress. And so I will always say, of course this is delicious. I just, I'm going somewhere else. What can you say? You have to come up with a story. I really don't want people to think I'm not eating something because I don't like it.

Host (14:24)

Right, sure.

Legaia Michonne (14:26)

But to make it through the night, you have to just take little bites. And I snack throughout the day. I can't wait until, you know, six o' clock for dinner. I'm not the kind who would starve myself because I know I have a three hour tasting menu, so. So I just have to then run eight miles the next day or something. That's how I keep this going. So I think probably eating four meals a week is pretty average.

Host (14:52)

I wanna ask about what you do when you have to write a negative review. We got a question or two about this, where people were asking, how do you think about that? Because obviously, I'm sure, you know, that your take on this place, you know, it could make or break someone's. They put all this time into it, you know, it sounds difficult. On the other hand, you know, your credibility as a reviewer obviously rests on your ability to say the truth about how you feel about these places. How do you think about that?

Tejal Rao (15:29)

I think with a negative review, it has to be worth writing. It has to be newsworthy in some way. I can't imagine directing readers to a place that they've never ever heard of. You know, that's a small independent business that is not generating a lot of hype or excitement. And writing a negative review of that place, you know, punching down in that way doesn't really make sense. But I think if a place is, you know, established, if it's an institution, if it's very powerful in some way, if it's very newsworthy in some way, and it's not, it's just like it's not delivering the thing that it promises to deliver, I think I need to write about it. That feels important, you know?

Host (16:15)

Right. On the flip side, have either of you been responsible for putting a restaurant on the map and kind of leading to lines out the door? And if so, talk to me about your feelings about that. Because on the one Hand. I mean, that could be a life changing moment for a business and for its owners. On the other, you're gonna have the fans of that restaurant who are gonna say, you ruined it. You know, you kind of took away the magic. Do either of you have an experience like that? And if so, what do you make of it?

Legaia Michonne (16:51)

So when I was writing a Hungry City column, there were cases of places I wrote about where their rents went up after, you know, like a little taqueria and the rent went up and they had to close.

Host (17:05)

Wow.

Legaia Michonne (17:05)

So I was always very conscious of that. And of course, with Hungry City, I was writing about these smaller places, maybe more precarious, with a more tenuous foothold in the city. I would imagine that a lot of the places we write about now, this is something we have to think about. Can the places we write about hold up under this spotlight? Would it hurt them? I want them to be busy. I hope that the people who come because they read the review are coming for all the right reasons because they think it'll be a beautiful experience. I guess you just never know what happens when you do that. And so that is just something that we have to think about. Have you had this experience, Tejal? Have you, like, do you feel like people have gone mad because you've written about or exposed a place?

Tejal Rao (17:55)

I don't know if people have gotten mad. I do think sometimes the little places just can't keep up. They can't always keep up with being under a spotlight. And then diners get angry too. Right. Like, there's this whole relationship that happens where diners get annoyed because either they can't make reservations or things sell out quickly and they're not available. And I. I don't know, sometimes I want to. I want to tell people, you know, go here, but be cool. You know, can you just be chill?

Natalie Kitroeff (18:27)

Yeah.

Host (18:28)

I'm writing about this on the condition that you be chill about it. Yeah.

Tejal Rao (18:32)

And then we know we don't have control over that either, unfortunately.

Host (18:37)

Okay, this is my question for you. And I have to say, I lived in LA for a year and a half and I'm gonna cancel myself on air right now by saying that the food in LA is better than the food in New York, which I don't know if you agree with. I'm so sorry, Lagaya, but I think you might agree with Tejal Scandal. But okay, there was, there was. I'm already hearing that I'm wrong. Everybody's telling me I'm wrong. There was this one piece that you Wrote, and I have not forgotten it. The headline was the best bagels are in California. Parentheses, Sorry, New York, you gotta straighten this out for me. Were you just trolling? Because I feel like maybe you were. Can you explain? This is your moment to defend yourself.

Tejal Rao (19:27)

Well, I didn't write the headline, but I stand behind every sentence in that story. You know, that story wasn't really a takedown of New York bagels so much as it was a celebration of all these west coast bakers making excellent and really different styles of bagels. Some New York style, some Montreal style, some kind of their own hybridized style, really. I was just having a lot of excellent bagels here. And I do think that actually in the years since, the bagel scene has gotten a little better in New York too. You know, there's like some. There's. There's some really interesting bagel places in New York that have come up in the last few years.

Host (20:11)

New York upped its game, I think.

Tejal Rao (20:13)

I mean, I think so generally, like, with. When it comes to bagels. But yeah, I just. I don't know, is there something. Is there something to defend in that piece? I thought, I thought, no, that is.

Host (20:24)

The one place where I feel like defensive of New York. Like, I do think the bagels are better in New York, but I hear you. It was beautiful. It did make me want to go eat a bagel in la. So I think you achieved the goal there.

Tejal Rao (20:38)

People were so angry.

Host (20:40)

People were angry, right?

Tejal Rao (20:41)

I think it did get people so mad at me.

Host (20:43)

But that was, you know, inevitable. I mean, the headline writer kind of did that for you. You know, this job comes with a lot of benefits. But there's also this one specific challenge that a lot of our listeners wanted to hear about.

Natalie Kitroeff (21:02)

My question is, how do they do their job and not gain a lot of weight? I wanted to know how the critics stay in shape and also how is there a blood levels and everything because they eat rich food. Are any of these food critics on a GLP1 weight loss drug? And if not, do they expect to be on it anytime soon?

Host (21:31)

How do you balance your health and a job that is based around eating? Legaya, you mentioned an eight mile run, for example. Just talk to me about that because I know this has been a really big issue for restaurant critics, right?

Legaia Michonne (21:48)

Well, of course, this is part of why Pete Wells stepped down.

Host (21:54)

Pete Wells, your predecessor. A legend.

Legaia Michonne (21:56)

An icon, yes, legend. So dedicated. I mean, for him, I think double dinners almost every night. I just really admire his level of commitment. I feel like it's Everything from trying to not finish everything at dinner, which I find very difficult, actually, when things are good, I would like to eat them.

Host (22:17)

Yes, understandable.

Legaia Michonne (22:19)

And then balancing it out with. So I run regularly. I do push ups every day. I'm up to. I think when I started the job, I was at 36. I'm now up to 48 a day. Awesome.

Host (22:30)

Good for you.

Legaia Michonne (22:31)

And then on the days off, just eating salad is so beautiful. I've just come to love all my salads or just vegetables and rice. And it gives me so much joy, and I feel so much better.

Host (22:45)

What about you, Tejal?

Tejal Rao (22:48)

I don't think eating is inherently kind of bad or unhealthy. You know, of course, there are places where it's really rich and it's. Or it's, you know, or a tasting menu, but that's not the way that I'm eating at every restaurant I go to. There are a lot of restaurants where the food feels, you know, really nourishing or feels really exactly like what I. What I need in that moment. And yeah, there are a lot of restaurants that are just making me feel good too. And I also work out as needed.

Host (23:20)

Okay, so we want to do an experiment here, which is a lightning round section. You can pass if you don't want to answer. Just don't pass too many times, please. And try to answer with the first thing that comes to you. The first question I want to ask is one that we got from readers, which is, what is the most underrated in your opinion? Food city, Honolulu.

Tejal Rao (23:44)

Minneapolis.

Host (23:46)

Wow. Okay. I'm booking my flights. Food trend that you hate.

Tejal Rao (23:52)

Beef tallow. Everything okay.

Legaia Michonne (23:55)

Caviar and truffles and uni on everything okay.

Host (24:00)

Food trend, you're in favor of.

Legaia Michonne (24:04)

Madeline's for dessert.

Host (24:06)

Yum.

Tejal Rao (24:07)

Oh, that's a really good one.

Host (24:09)

That is a good one. Now I want to made.

Tejal Rao (24:11)

Yeah. When they come out and they're still warm, they're like, baked to order. Dusted with powdered sugar. Okay, sorry.

Host (24:19)

All right, we're going to give you Madeline's as well. Okay. Best style of pizza.

Natalie Kitroeff (24:29)

Bar.

Legaia Michonne (24:31)

White pizzas. I like white pizzas.

Host (24:33)

Okay, your most controversial food. Take it. Can be one that you've said publicly or one that you believe deeply in your heart that you're gonna be confessing right now for the first time.

Legaia Michonne (24:47)

Spam is a great flavoring agent. That's my controversial food take.

Host (24:55)

Do you have one?

Tejal Rao (24:56)

I don't know which ones are controversial.

Host (24:59)

Maybe it would be that the La Bagels are better than the new York City bagels.

Tejal Rao (25:03)

That west coast bagels are really excellent. That just seems not that controversial anymore.

Host (25:09)

Okay, we're gonna agree to disagree. Okay.

Tejal Rao (25:13)

Fair.

Host (25:14)

Okay. Let's call this Leave It, Marry it and spend a Wonderful night with it. Breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Tejal Rao (25:26)

Leave it to breakfast. Marry it.

Host (25:31)

Gosh.

Tejal Rao (25:32)

I'm actually not sure between lunch and dinner which one I want to.

Host (25:35)

It's tough. It's tough.

Tejal Rao (25:36)

Marry. I'm in. A merry lunch.

Host (25:40)

Okay.

Tejal Rao (25:41)

And I'm in. Just have one beautiful night with dinner.

Host (25:44)

All right. Lugaya.

Legaia Michonne (25:46)

Oh, I'm marrying breakfast, leaving lunch and flinging with dinner.

Host (25:50)

Amazing. Okay, good. All right. Um, last time that you sent something back, and what was it? Do you remember?

Tejal Rao (26:01)

I almost never will. I can't imagine sending something back.

Legaia Michonne (26:08)

I don't think I've ever done that.

Host (26:10)

Wow.

Legaia Michonne (26:11)

Even if. Even when it's been inedible, actually.

Host (26:14)

Okay, for both of you, best recent meal, restaurant, and describe what you ate.

Tejal Rao (26:23)

I can't believe I'm saying a tasting menu, because I. I kind of have tasting menu fatigue at the moment. But the tasting menu at Emeril's in New Orleans was so beautifully done. You know, every course was delicious, and there was just such a fun energy in the dining room, and everyone was who was working there seemed to be having a good time. Yeah, that was just a really great meal. There was a perfect little gumbo. There was a really beautiful housemade smoked boudin with, like, a sauce that had been mounted with foie gras, like, so over the top. It sounds ridiculous. It was.

Host (27:04)

Sounds incredible.

Tejal Rao (27:05)

There was shaved ice for dessert, and also a banana cream pie that they drizzled with warm caramel sauce at the table.

Host (27:14)

Okay. This is getting ridiculous.

Tejal Rao (27:15)

Really stand out.

Host (27:18)

Legaya.

Legaia Michonne (27:20)

So it has to be Karai Kitchen in Jersey City, where you're promised eight courses, and you lose count of how many dishes are coming. And it's all beautiful, and it's run by a mother and daughter, and they talk about it as homestyle food, but the amount of labor and attention to detail and sheer giftedness of this chef is just apparent in everything. So something that seems so simple, like just these rounds of eggplant that are fried with turmeric and salt. Like they're not even that many ingredients, and yet it's perfect. Or something like the goat biryani, which takes hours. The chef said, you know, each ingredient has its own time zone, so everything is being cooked separately and then being cooked together, and it's being only cooked to a certain amount because it's going to cook more when it's all the dessert alone takes another seven to eight hours. And that one, she wouldn't even tell me how she does it because that one's a secret. Basically. All I know is it's dairy based. And what kind of dairy could not be revealed.

Host (28:27)

Wow.

Legaia Michonne (28:28)

Or even the method of cooking.

Tejal Rao (28:30)

I love that review so much, Legaya.

Legaia Michonne (28:33)

Thank you.

Tejal Rao (28:33)

I love your description of the way you could feel your face differently after having the mustard oil. You could feel.

Legaia Michonne (28:40)

Yes, yes. There's mustard oil and everything. And so many chilies. And it goes on and on and it's. It's three hours and dessert hasn't come yet. And you love every moment of it.

Host (28:51)

For the final question, we're going to all timers, no time restriction. What is the restaurant that lives rent free in your head, the one you think about all the time? It can exist or not anymore, but for you, the classic restaurant, the one that is in your heart.

Tejal Rao (29:16)

I've been thinking a lot about. My grandmother died a couple of weeks ago and I've been thinking about this restaurant that she. Thank you. I've been thinking about this place she used to take me in Nairobi that was essentially just a place you went for fried potatoes, sliced potatoes dipped in chickpea batter and then fried. It was called Maru Bajia and she was a regular there. She knew everyone. I long to be a regular somewhere. It's the kind of relationship with restaurants that I don't really get to have as a critic. So I think I'm thinking about that place, you know, because it has this. I have this emotional connection to it, but also because I, from her got a sense of what it was like to be a regular and walk in and know everyone who works there, everyone who's dining there, who borrowed money from who, who just had a baby, whose kid is going to college. It's not just the food, which I remember it would always be like a little too hot to touch. It was so delicious. And it would come with green chutney. But it was also that sense of being a part of the restaurant, you know, the sense of it being like a real community.

Host (30:26)

Yeah, it's so beautiful. I mean, the experience of being a regular somewhere is just. It's like the best. It's like family.

Legaia Michonne (30:35)

Legaia When I lived in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, that was the one time in my life where I have been a regular at a restaurant and I don't live anywhere near it now, so I never go. But it was Romans. My daughter had just been born, I think maybe just six months before Romans opened. And so we would go with her. We would be the first people through the door at five o' clock and we'd be out of there by six. And we went two or three times a week. I just remember that, you know, the menu changed every day and there'd be times when I'd go in and there weren't that many dishes. Maybe three pastas, three mains, just a few starters. And sometimes I'd look at the menu and I'd think, oh, I don't know, maybe nothing is exactly what I want to eat. And it turned out that whatever I ordered was exactly what I wanted. I just didn't know it. So I think I've been chasing that feeling at a restaurant again all these years.

Host (31:38)

Restaurants are so magic and so are you too. Thank you both so much for coming on the show.

Legaia Michonne (31:46)

Thanks for having us.

Tejal Rao (31:47)

This was so fun.

Host (31:49)

Nailed it. Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley and Rob Zipko. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg, contains music by Marian Lozano and was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to everyone who called in and left a voicemail. We couldn't include them all, but they were so much fun to listen to. That's it for the Daily I'm Natalie Kitro F. See you on Monday.

Tejal Rao (32:40)

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