The Daily — "Senators Unleash on R.F.K. Jr."

Date: September 5, 2025
Host: Michael Barbaro
Main Guest: Cheryl Gay Stolberg (NYT congressional reporter)
Main Theme:
A fiery Senate hearing exposes bipartisan frustrations — and fury — at Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., over his controversial vaccine policies and the firing of the CDC director. What does this clash reveal about America's changing political and public health landscape?

Episode Overview

This episode centers on an extraordinarily tense Senate Finance Committee hearing where Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., President Trump’s Health and Human Services Secretary, faces bipartisan anger. Senators accuse him of spreading vaccine skepticism, firing key health officials, and undermining public health — all against the backdrop of America’s deepening political and cultural divides over vaccines and the federal government’s role.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Context: Why This Hearing Matters

• RFK Jr.’s Background: Kennedy, from a storied Democratic family, was confirmed as HHS Secretary under Trump, despite skepticism from both parties because of his vaccine views.
• Promises Made: At confirmation, Kennedy insisted he was “not anti-vaccine,” promising not to take away or discourage vaccines (03:39–03:50).
• Recent Actions:
  • Lukewarm endorsement of the measles vaccine during the worst outbreak in 20 years.
  • Cancelation of $500 million in mRNA vaccine contracts.
  • Ending COVID vaccine recommendations for healthy people under 65, making pharmacy/insurer access harder.
  • Firing the Senate-confirmed CDC Director, Susan Menares, just a month into the job.
  • Replacing the CDC vaccine panel with vaccine skeptics (03:55–05:19).

"Did all of this amount to Kennedy breaking his promise not to make it harder for Americans to get vaccines? That’s the context in which this hearing played out."
— Cheryl Gay Stolberg, [05:19]

2. Inside the Hearing: Tone and Tactics

Democrats' Approach: Direct Confrontation

• Senator Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) opens with scathing remarks, accusing Kennedy of:
  • Lying to Congress.
  • Elevating "junk science and fringe conspiracies." ([06:39], [07:08])
  • Demanding Kennedy be sworn in under oath (a rare insult to a cabinet secretary). ([07:19]–[08:20])
• Democrats' Case:
  • Kennedy is making vaccines less accessible.
  • He broke promises, lied, and endangered public health.
  • They underline the potential for preventable child deaths.

    "How many preventable child deaths are an acceptable sacrifice for enacting an agenda that I think is fundamentally cruel and defies common sense?"
    — Senator Wyden, [08:48]

Kennedy’s Defense

• Equates senators with failing to protect American health during rising chronic disease rates.
• Deflects blame onto senators and CDC — "They did not do their job. This was their job to keep us healthy." ([09:24]–[10:37])
• Contends CDC has presided over increasing ill health; claims his shake-ups are necessary reforms.

  "If we don’t end this chronic disease, we are the sickest country in the world. That’s why we have to fire people at the CDC."
  — RFK Jr., [10:14–10:22]

Key Exchanges

Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) Grills Kennedy ([11:03–12:26])

• Argues vaccine access is de facto being restricted:

  "It takes it away if you can't get it from your pharmacies ... No, they can't just walk into a pharmacy the way they could last month."
  — Warren (paraphrased by Cheryl Gay Stolberg), [11:36]

• Kennedy insists: “Anybody who wants a vaccine can get one.”
• Barbaro notes NYT reporting supports Warren: cost and availability will become new barriers.

Clinical Trials Debate ([12:51–13:44])

• Kennedy claims he’ll only recommend vaccines with clinical trial data.
• Stolberg clarifies the catch-22: COVID (and flu) boosters adjust annually to new strains, so traditional clinical trials would make them obsolete by release.

CDC Director Firing ([13:59–15:09])

• Kennedy alleges CDC director said she wasn’t trustworthy, justifying her firing (a claim her lawyers deny as “false and patently ridiculous”).
• Barbaro and Stolberg highlight that this defense is implausible and undermines Kennedy’s credibility.

Senator Mark Warner (D-VA) ([15:44–16:47])

• Warner presses Kennedy on basic COVID death statistics.
• Kennedy demurs, questioning data reliability, which angers Warner:

  “You’re the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don’t have any idea how many Americans died from COVID … How can you be that ignorant?”
  — Senator Warner, [16:03–16:47]

3. Republican Reaction: Division and Dismay

Traditional Approach: Sidestepping

• Some Republicans give Kennedy an easy ride, focusing on agriculture, rural health, and unrelated topics ([19:42–20:14]).

Unexpected Republicans: Tough Questions

• Senator Bill Cassidy (R-LA) — a physician, originally reluctant but ultimately supportive of RFK Jr.— uses Trump’s success with Operation Warp Speed to force Kennedy into a logical trap:

  • “Do you agree with me that the President deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?”

  • Kennedy: “Absolutely, Senator.”

  • Cassidy: “It surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when, as an attorney, you attempted to restrict access [to the COVID vaccine].” ([21:36–22:43])

    “You can’t simultaneously claim that Operation Warp Speed and Trump’s COVID vaccines are this monumental achievement and then do all these things that cast aspersions on the COVID vaccine ... you can’t have it both ways.”
    — Michael Barbaro summarizing Cassidy, [22:43]

• Senator John Barrasso (R-WY) — lauds Trump’s vaccine achievement, compares him to George Washington, then lambastes Kennedy for muddled, alarming vaccine policy ([23:35–24:46]).

• Senator Thom Tillis (R-NC) — businesslike, expresses confusion at Kennedy’s flip-flop on the CDC director, points out self-contradictions ([25:31–26:45]).

  > “You said you’re going to empower the scientists at HHS to do their job. I’d just like to see evidence where you’ve done that.”  
  > — Senator Tillis, [26:33]
  

4. Fallout & Implications: Divided States, Shifting Norms

• Partisan Realignment in Public Health: Kennedy’s skepticism is pushing states to make their own, often sharply divergent, vaccine policies.
  • Florida eliminates school vaccine requirements — a historic first for a large state ([28:24–28:59]).
  • Blue states (WA, OR, CA, MA) reject federal guidance, band together with stricter vaccine policies ([29:47]).
• The End of CDC Unity: States are breaking from 70 years of following CDC recommendations ([30:22]).
• Republican Regret: Senators who supported Kennedy now witness the reality of his influence:

  “…the thing they feared is actually happening, and it’s too late to stop it.”
  — Cheryl Gay Stolberg, [31:12]

• Will Trump Intervene?: No evidence Trump will remove Kennedy, despite rising Republican discomfort.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You are a hazard to the health of the American people.” — Senator Ron Wyden to RFK Jr., [01:37]
• “If we don’t end this chronic disease, we are the sickest country in the world. That’s why we have to fire people at the CDC.” — RFK Jr., [10:14]
• “I don’t know how many died. … I don’t think anybody knows that because there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC.” — RFK Jr., [16:03]
• “You’re the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don’t have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? … How can you be that ignorant?” — Sen. Warner, [16:47]
• “Do you agree with me that the President deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?” — Sen. Cassidy, [21:36]
• “[Florida] would be the first state to eliminate its childhood school vaccine requirements.” — Cheryl Gay Stolberg, [28:43]
• “It’s Kennedy’s world.” — Michael Barbaro, [29:47]

Important Timestamps

• [03:39] Kennedy’s confirmation promises.
• [05:19] Key decisions on vaccines and firing CDC director.
• [06:39], [08:48] Wyden’s accusations and demands.
• [11:03] Warren’s questioning on Covid vaccine access.
• [13:59–15:09] The firing of the CDC director.
• [16:03–16:47] Kennedy’s evasion on COVID death stats.
• [21:36–22:43] Cassidy’s challenge on Operation Warp Speed.
• [23:35–24:46] Barrasso’s historic comparison and challenge.
• [25:31–26:45] Tillis on Kennedy’s contradictions.
• [28:24–29:47] State responses, Florida’s vaccine repeal, blue states banding together.

Conclusion

This episode exposes the sharp rupture between RFK Jr. — a once-iconoclastic Democrat now shaping national health from within a Trumpian administration — and both parties in Congress. Democratic senators are openly hostile and accusatory, but it's the cracks in Republican support, and unprecedented state-level divergence in vaccine policy, that mark a turning point for U.S. public health. The fight over science, trust, and power is no longer merely political theater — it’s remaking the everyday decisions of states, schools, and families nationwide.

Summary by The Daily | New York Times