Senators Unleash on R.F.K. Jr.

Summary

The Daily — "Senators Unleash on R.F.K. Jr."

Date: September 5, 2025
Host: Michael Barbaro
Main Guest: Cheryl Gay Stolberg (NYT congressional reporter)
Main Theme:
A fiery Senate hearing exposes bipartisan frustrations — and fury — at Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., over his controversial vaccine policies and the firing of the CDC director. What does this clash reveal about America's changing political and public health landscape?

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on an extraordinarily tense Senate Finance Committee hearing where Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., President Trump’s Health and Human Services Secretary, faces bipartisan anger. Senators accuse him of spreading vaccine skepticism, firing key health officials, and undermining public health — all against the backdrop of America’s deepening political and cultural divides over vaccines and the federal government’s role.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Context: Why This Hearing Matters

• RFK Jr.’s Background: Kennedy, from a storied Democratic family, was confirmed as HHS Secretary under Trump, despite skepticism from both parties because of his vaccine views.
• Promises Made: At confirmation, Kennedy insisted he was “not anti-vaccine,” promising not to take away or discourage vaccines (03:39–03:50).
• Recent Actions:
  • Lukewarm endorsement of the measles vaccine during the worst outbreak in 20 years.
  • Cancelation of $500 million in mRNA vaccine contracts.
  • Ending COVID vaccine recommendations for healthy people under 65, making pharmacy/insurer access harder.
  • Firing the Senate-confirmed CDC Director, Susan Menares, just a month into the job.
  • Replacing the CDC vaccine panel with vaccine skeptics (03:55–05:19).

"Did all of this amount to Kennedy breaking his promise not to make it harder for Americans to get vaccines? That’s the context in which this hearing played out."
— Cheryl Gay Stolberg, [05:19]

---

2. Inside the Hearing: Tone and Tactics

Democrats' Approach: Direct Confrontation

• Senator Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) opens with scathing remarks, accusing Kennedy of:
  • Lying to Congress.
  • Elevating "junk science and fringe conspiracies." ([06:39], [07:08])
  • Demanding Kennedy be sworn in under oath (a rare insult to a cabinet secretary). ([07:19]–[08:20])
• Democrats' Case:
  • Kennedy is making vaccines less accessible.
  • He broke promises, lied, and endangered public health.
  • They underline the potential for preventable child deaths.

    "How many preventable child deaths are an acceptable sacrifice for enacting an agenda that I think is fundamentally cruel and defies common sense?"
    — Senator Wyden, [08:48]

Kennedy’s Defense

• Equates senators with failing to protect American health during rising chronic disease rates.
• Deflects blame onto senators and CDC — "They did not do their job. This was their job to keep us healthy." ([09:24]–[10:37])
• Contends CDC has presided over increasing ill health; claims his shake-ups are necessary reforms.

  "If we don’t end this chronic disease, we are the sickest country in the world. That’s why we have to fire people at the CDC."
  — RFK Jr., [10:14–10:22]

Key Exchanges

Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) Grills Kennedy ([11:03–12:26])

• Argues vaccine access is de facto being restricted:

  "It takes it away if you can't get it from your pharmacies ... No, they can't just walk into a pharmacy the way they could last month."
  — Warren (paraphrased by Cheryl Gay Stolberg), [11:36]

• Kennedy insists: “Anybody who wants a vaccine can get one.”
• Barbaro notes NYT reporting supports Warren: cost and availability will become new barriers.

Clinical Trials Debate ([12:51–13:44])

• Kennedy claims he’ll only recommend vaccines with clinical trial data.
• Stolberg clarifies the catch-22: COVID (and flu) boosters adjust annually to new strains, so traditional clinical trials would make them obsolete by release.

CDC Director Firing ([13:59–15:09])

• Kennedy alleges CDC director said she wasn’t trustworthy, justifying her firing (a claim her lawyers deny as “false and patently ridiculous”).
• Barbaro and Stolberg highlight that this defense is implausible and undermines Kennedy’s credibility.

Senator Mark Warner (D-VA) ([15:44–16:47])

• Warner presses Kennedy on basic COVID death statistics.
• Kennedy demurs, questioning data reliability, which angers Warner:

  “You’re the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don’t have any idea how many Americans died from COVID … How can you be that ignorant?”
  — Senator Warner, [16:03–16:47]

---

3. Republican Reaction: Division and Dismay

Traditional Approach: Sidestepping

• Some Republicans give Kennedy an easy ride, focusing on agriculture, rural health, and unrelated topics ([19:42–20:14]).

Unexpected Republicans: Tough Questions

• Senator Bill Cassidy (R-LA) — a physician, originally reluctant but ultimately supportive of RFK Jr.— uses Trump’s success with Operation Warp Speed to force Kennedy into a logical trap:

  • “Do you agree with me that the President deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?”

  • Kennedy: “Absolutely, Senator.”

  • Cassidy: “It surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when, as an attorney, you attempted to restrict access [to the COVID vaccine].” ([21:36–22:43])

    “You can’t simultaneously claim that Operation Warp Speed and Trump’s COVID vaccines are this monumental achievement and then do all these things that cast aspersions on the COVID vaccine ... you can’t have it both ways.”
    — Michael Barbaro summarizing Cassidy, [22:43]

• Senator John Barrasso (R-WY) — lauds Trump’s vaccine achievement, compares him to George Washington, then lambastes Kennedy for muddled, alarming vaccine policy ([23:35–24:46]).

• Senator Thom Tillis (R-NC) — businesslike, expresses confusion at Kennedy’s flip-flop on the CDC director, points out self-contradictions ([25:31–26:45]).

  > “You said you’re going to empower the scientists at HHS to do their job. I’d just like to see evidence where you’ve done that.”  
  > — Senator Tillis, [26:33]
  

---

4. Fallout & Implications: Divided States, Shifting Norms

• Partisan Realignment in Public Health: Kennedy’s skepticism is pushing states to make their own, often sharply divergent, vaccine policies.
  • Florida eliminates school vaccine requirements — a historic first for a large state ([28:24–28:59]).
  • Blue states (WA, OR, CA, MA) reject federal guidance, band together with stricter vaccine policies ([29:47]).
• The End of CDC Unity: States are breaking from 70 years of following CDC recommendations ([30:22]).
• Republican Regret: Senators who supported Kennedy now witness the reality of his influence:

  “…the thing they feared is actually happening, and it’s too late to stop it.”
  — Cheryl Gay Stolberg, [31:12]

• Will Trump Intervene?: No evidence Trump will remove Kennedy, despite rising Republican discomfort.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You are a hazard to the health of the American people.” — Senator Ron Wyden to RFK Jr., [01:37]
• “If we don’t end this chronic disease, we are the sickest country in the world. That’s why we have to fire people at the CDC.” — RFK Jr., [10:14]
• “I don’t know how many died. … I don’t think anybody knows that because there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC.” — RFK Jr., [16:03]
• “You’re the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don’t have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? … How can you be that ignorant?” — Sen. Warner, [16:47]
• “Do you agree with me that the President deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?” — Sen. Cassidy, [21:36]
• “[Florida] would be the first state to eliminate its childhood school vaccine requirements.” — Cheryl Gay Stolberg, [28:43]
• “It’s Kennedy’s world.” — Michael Barbaro, [29:47]

---

Important Timestamps

• [03:39] Kennedy’s confirmation promises.
• [05:19] Key decisions on vaccines and firing CDC director.
• [06:39], [08:48] Wyden’s accusations and demands.
• [11:03] Warren’s questioning on Covid vaccine access.
• [13:59–15:09] The firing of the CDC director.
• [16:03–16:47] Kennedy’s evasion on COVID death stats.
• [21:36–22:43] Cassidy’s challenge on Operation Warp Speed.
• [23:35–24:46] Barrasso’s historic comparison and challenge.
• [25:31–26:45] Tillis on Kennedy’s contradictions.
• [28:24–29:47] State responses, Florida’s vaccine repeal, blue states banding together.

---

Conclusion

This episode exposes the sharp rupture between RFK Jr. — a once-iconoclastic Democrat now shaping national health from within a Trumpian administration — and both parties in Congress. Democratic senators are openly hostile and accusatory, but it's the cracks in Republican support, and unprecedented state-level divergence in vaccine policy, that mark a turning point for U.S. public health. The fight over science, trust, and power is no longer merely political theater — it’s remaking the everyday decisions of states, schools, and families nationwide.

---

Summary by The Daily | New York Times

Transcript

[Michael Barbaro]

We are living in interesting times, a.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Turning point in history. Are we entering a dark authoritarian era.

[Michael Barbaro]

Or are we on the brink of a technological golden age or the apocalypse? No one really knows, but I'm trying to find out from New York Times opinion. I'm Ross Douthat, and on my show Interesting Times, I'm exploring this strange new world order with the thinkers and leaders giving it shape.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Follow it wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Barbaro]

From. New York Times. I'm Michael Babarro. This is the Daily.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I don't think Robert Kennedy should be within a million miles of this job.

[Michael Barbaro]

Today in an extraordinarily tense showdown on Thursday.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You're so wrong on your facts.

[Michael Barbaro]

You're interrupting me.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And, sir, you're a charlatan.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's what you are. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Was confronted by senators of both parties.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

This is crazy talk to prescribe a vaccine for children.

[Michael Barbaro]

I'm not making things up over his vaccine policies. His ouster of the director of the CDC and the growing list of federal health officials who have resigned in protest of his leadership.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Everybody is corrupt but you. Is that what we're looking at? I don't think so. And I think the issue. I don't even know what you're talking about.

[Michael Barbaro]

My colleague Cheryl Gay Stolberg was in the room and describes what seems like a turning point in the relationship between Congress and Kennedy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You are a hazard to the health of the American people. Can I respond? No.

[Michael Barbaro]

It's Friday, September 5th. Cheryl, this was a remarkable hearing. Remarkable, I would say, for the level of anger in both directions, witness and senators. Remarkable because of the accusations that were traded and the sheer number of times that people were called liars. And almost all of it stemmed from decisions that the Secretary of Health, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Has made around vaccines, especially in the past few weeks and where that leaves public health in the United States.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

It was extraordinary. First of all, it's very rare in the Capitol, if ever to see a witness call a senator a liar. And Kennedy comes from a very particular place. Right. He grew up in this Democratic family. He was playing in the Oval Office, you know, when he was a little boy and his Uncle John was president. And he feels no compunction about treating these senators as his equal. He does not come seeking favors. He comes lobbing insults.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, just give me the context as you see it, in which this hearing arrives.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Well, it's been seven months since Kennedy was sworn in by President Trump as Health and Human Services Secretary. When he was confirmed, there was a lot of pause about him on the part of Democrats, but also some Republicans about his views on vaccines. Many people would call him anti vaccine. He insists he's not anti vaccine. He's pro safety. But nonetheless, senators were very concerned. And Kennedy made some very explicit promises.

[Michael Barbaro]

To get confirmed. Right?

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

To get confirmed. He said he was not going to take away anybody's vaccines and he was not going to discourage vaccination.

[Michael Barbaro]

And that seems like a very important promise to have made for skeptical senators from both parties.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Yes, very much so. But in the seven months since, Kennedy has issued a very lukewarm endorsement of the measles vaccine during a measles outbreak that is the worst in this country in 20 years. He canceled $500 million in government contracts for MRNA vaccines. That's the that was used to create the COVID vaccines. Kennedy also announced that Covid vaccines would no longer be recommended for healthy children or adults under 65, which will make them effectively harder to get because some pharmacies will require prescriptions and some insurers might not insure them.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. That's a major rollback in the government's recommendation for Covid vaccines.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

It is. And on top of that, he fired all 17 members of the panel of experts who advise the CDC on vaccine policy, and he replaced them with his own people, many of whom are vaccine skeptics like he is. But the big thing, the thing that caused a huge uproar and chaos at the cdc, is that last week, Kennedy orchestrated the firing of the director of the CDC just one month after she had been confirmed by the Senate. And the question among members of both parties is, did all of this amount to Kennedy breaking his promise not to make it harder for Americans to get vaccines? And that's the context in which this hearing played out.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Sheryl, take us inside this hearing room and describe how this hearing starts to unfold.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

This hearing will come to order.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

So this was a hearing before the Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over the Health and Human Services Department.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Today we meet to hear from U.S. department of Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. And it was.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Ostensibly to give Kennedy a chance to testify on President Trump's 2026 budget proposal.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Mr. Secretary, I look forward to hearing from you today about the administration's efforts to make America healthy again.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

But everybody knew that's not what it was really about.

[Michael Barbaro]

It was always going to be about vaccines.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

It was always going to be about vaccines.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Thank you very much, Senator Wyden.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Right away, the Democrats came out swinging.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the committee gathers today, The United States is in the midst of a health care calamity.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

The largest, Ron Wyden, the top Democrat on the committee, kicked things off.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

It's been obvious from the start that Robert Kennedy's primary interest is to take vaccines away from Americans. During his confirmation process, he claimed to be pro safety and pro science. But his actions reveal a steadfast commitment to elevating junk science and fringe conspiracies.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

He right away goes through this long list of things that he says Kennedy has done to endanger the health of all Americans.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Families are confused. They're scared about who to trust about their health care.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Robert Kennedy, not only that, he accused Kennedy of lying to the committee previously.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I think it is unfortunate that I have to do this, but given the unprecedented nature of the witnesses behavior and I would ask now that the committee formally swear in Robert Kennedy as a.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Witness and took the extraordinary step of saying he wanted Kennedy sworn in formally so that he would have to vow to tell the truth under oath.

[Michael Barbaro]

Isn't that kind of a presumed state of testifying before Congress? What exactly is Wyden asking for?

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Well, it was kind of an insult to Kennedy, frankly. It is a presumed state and once someone is a cabinet secretary, it is presumed that they are going to come in and testify truthfully. Wyden is in effect telling Kennedy and his colleagues, I don't believe you're going to be truthful with us.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Senator Wyden, I will personally object and will reject your request. We will treat this witness as we treat all of the other administration witnesses who come before us.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And the chairman of the committee, Mike Crapo, Republican of Idaho, immediately shot it down and said, no, we're not doing that. But Wyden just went on and continued to press Kennedy and put him on the spot.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Mr. Chairman, I've made it clear. I think that Secretary Kennedy is dead set on making it harder for children to get vaccines and that kids are going to die because of it.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And this really set the tone for the hearing.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I hope that you will tell the American people how many preventable child deaths are an acceptable sacrifice for enacting an agenda that I think is fundamentally cruel and defies common sense. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Do I got a reply?

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And if Kennedy wasn't angry when he walked into the room, he was certainly angry after this.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Senator, you've sat in that chair for how long, 20, 25 years while the chronic disease in our children went up to 76% and you said nothing? You never asked the question why it's happening?

[Michael Barbaro]

Why is this happening and Kennedy's response to Wyden. Cheryl, and this comes up many times in this hearing, especially when it comes to the Democrats, is that in Kennedy's mind, senators responsible for overseeing America's health care system have allowed America to become a sicker and sicker country over time, and therefore, in Kennedy's mind, have failed to do their job. In his telling, they've upheld a bad status quo which he says he's trying to fix. And part of that is by questioning who gets what vaccine and if they really need it.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Yes, I would add to that, and I would say, in Kennedy's mind, the CDC has presided over a rise in chronic disease.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

If we don't end this chronic disease, we are the sickest country in the world. That's why we have to fire people at the cdc.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And it's the CDC that needs to be cleared out and reorganized because they have failed Americans. And the senators who oversaw the CDC were complicit in that failure.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

They did not do their job. This was their job to keep us healthy.

[Michael Barbaro]

But what becomes clear is that the Democrats on this committee don't really want to have that conversation about the cdc, about chronic illness in this country, at least not in this moment. They want to keep talking about what they see as Kennedy's broken promises on vaccines.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, yeah, and you really saw that when Senator Elizabeth Warren questioned Kennedy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Then last week you announced the COVID.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

19 vaccine is no longer approved for healthy people under the age of 65. She came at him really hard and said, you have made it harder for Americans to get vaccines.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Anybody can get the booster.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

I'm sorry?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Anybody can get it.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Anybody. He said, I didn't take away anybody's vaccines. You're wrong. I didn't do that. You just changed the classification of the COVID vaccine.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I'm not taking them away from people, Senator.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

It takes it away if you can't get it from. From your pharmacies. And she said, yes, you did. Because it's harder for pharmacies to give these Covid vaccines out when the CDC isn't recommending them. It's harder for insurers to cover them. No, they can't walk into a pharmacy.

[Michael Barbaro]

The way they could last month and get access.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

It depends on the state. It depends on the states a year ago. But they can still get it. Everybody can get it. Everybody can get it, Senator.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

So, look, poor people might not be able to afford them. So in effect, you have cut off people's access to vaccines, and he just Kept saying over and over again, no, I didn't. No, I didn't. Anybody who wants a vaccine can get one.

[Michael Barbaro]

We should say Times reporting has found that to a degree, Warren is correct. Kennedy doesn't want to accept that. But he's saying, look, there's a reason why we are taking away the recommendation that healthy people get these vaccines. And I want to engage you on that, Cheryl. He's saying, we did this because these Covid booster shots have never been put through clinical trials.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

We're not going to recommend a product for which there's no clinical data for that indication. Would you? Is that what I should be doing?

[Michael Barbaro]

And he's saying, I don't want the government recommendation to tell people to get a vaccine that hasn't gone through that. And as best I can tell, he is right about that.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

No, he is right about that. But it's kind of a catch 22. Michael. The original Covid vaccines went through clinical trials, but once you come around to boosters, a booster is a seasonal shot, just like a flu vaccine that we get every year, and they adjust it to match the current variant that is in circulation. If you do a clinical trial on a booster, by the time that trial is done, the virus has already mutated and the vaccine is not useful.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. To finish the metaphor, the flu season's over.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Exactly. So that argument does not quite add up.

[Michael Barbaro]

Gotcha. Warren did something else notable, which was to demand that Secretary Kennedy explain exactly why he had tried to to fire the director of the cdc, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Tell the head of the CDC that.

[Michael Barbaro]

If she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule, that she had to resign.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And he said something very interesting.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

He said that he met with Susan Menares, the director of the cdc, and he asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no. So he fired her.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

If you had an employee who told you they weren't trustworthy, would you ask them to resign, Senator?

[Michael Barbaro]

So, I'm sorry, but this is not.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

What she has said publicly.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

She has said, well, I'm not surprised about that.

[Michael Barbaro]

So you're saying she's lying?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Yes. Every conversation.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Which kind of doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. It doesn't exactly match human nature to imagine a senior government health official walking into her boss's office and saying, no, I'm not trustworthy.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Right. So, doing my due diligence, I asked her lawyers, you know, is this what happened? And they said, no, it's false and patently ridiculous.

[Michael Barbaro]

And it feels like this moment starts to make clear that for the Democrats on this committee, this hearing is an exercise in delegitimizing Kennedy as Secretary of Health by pointing out what they see as his dishonesty, in some cases what they see as his incompetence. And as this exchange lays bare a kind of lack of credibility, the suggestion that the CDC director offered herself up as not trustworthy.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Right. And also a lack of command of the facts. You know, Senator Mark Warner of Virginia asked Kennedy very pointedly, do you accept.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

The fact that a million Americans died.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

From COVID Do you know how many people died of COVID during the pandemic?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I don't know how many died. You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID I don't think anybody knows that because there was so much data chaos coming out of the cdc and there was diverse incentives. And these are modeling. You don't know the answer of how many Americans from COVID This is the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Do you think the vaccine.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Kennedy, frankly, was making a different point. He was questioning the data. He was saying, well, you know, they may have reported a million, but basically I don't believe it. That didn't satisfy Senator Warner.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

How can you be that ignorant?

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

It seemed to me like Democrats were carefully orchestrating their case that Kennedy is a danger to the health of Americans. Each one of them kind of taking a different aspect of what he did with vaccines. And it wasn't really a surprise that Democrats attacked Kennedy in this way. The big question was, what would the Republicans say? You know, President Trump memorably said that he was going to let Bobby, as he calls him, go wild on health. And the question in my mind was, did Republicans think that Kennedy may have gone a little too wild? And some of them think that he has.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Advertisement/Announcer]

Let's be honest. Most HR platforms aren't exactly a joy to use. Deal's different. It's AI native, keeps you compliant and grows with your team, whether you're five people or 50,000 HR IT and payroll on one platform that just works. See for yourself@d eel.com NYT Building a.

[Michael Barbaro]

Portfolio with fidelity Basket portfolios is kind of like making a sandwich. It's as simple as picking your stocks and ETFs, sort of like your meats and other toppings, and managing it as one big, juicy investment.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Now that's pretty good.

[Michael Barbaro]

Learn [e-mail] baskets Investing involves risk, including risk of loss. Fidelity Brokerage Services, llc Member NYSE SIPC.

[Advertisement/Announcer]

Your home is an active investment, not a passive one. And with Rocket Mortgage, you can put your home equity to work right away. When you unlock your home equity, you unlock new doors for your family, renovations, extensions, even buying your next property. Get started today with smarter tools and guidance from real mortgage experts. Find out [e-mail] Rocket Mortgage LLC licensed in 50 states nmlsconsumeraccess.org 3030.

[Michael Barbaro]

So, Cheryl, let's turn to how these Republicans at this hearing decide to handle Kennedy and his approach to vaccines.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

So, Michael, there were two kinds of Republicans at this hearing. There were the unsurprising Republicans.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

President Trump and Secretary Kennedy have made a steadfast commitment to make America healthy again.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Who wanted to talk about everything but vaccines.

[Michael Barbaro]

I appreciate the comments you've made about.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

The Rural Health Transformation Program. That is something they asked Kennedy about rural health care.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Hearing you told me that you agreed.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

To leave farming regulations, about agriculture policy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Do you believe COVID 19 was politicized? And the whole process was politicized.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

They were basically throwing softballs. The surprising Republicans were the ones who really questioned him hard on vaccine policy and on the decisions that he had made.

[Michael Barbaro]

And where should we start with those senators?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Senator Cassidy?

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

I think you have to begin with Senator Bill Cassidy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Thank you. I'll try and restore a little calm here. And I'm approaching this as a doctor, not as a senator.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

He's a Republican from Louisiana. He's a doctor. He's chairman of the Senate Health Committee. Cassidy is a fierce proponent of vaccination. And back during the confirmation process, Cassidy was agonizing over whether or not to confirm Kennedy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I am concerned about children's health, senior's.

[Michael Barbaro]

Health, all of our health.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Ultimately, Cassidy decided to vote for Kennedy. But what we saw on Thursday is that he is still deeply uneasy with Kennedy. And he really tried to entrap Kennedy almost by bringing in President Trump, who oversaw the development of the COVID vaccines, and pitting him against Kennedy, who has been so critical of the COVID vaccines.

[Michael Barbaro]

Just explain exactly how Cassidy is trying to pit Trump and Kennedy against each other.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

President Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Cassidy says Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed, the fast track vaccine initiative that produced the COVID vaccines in the first place.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

We saved millions of lives globally, trillions of dollars. We reopened economies, an incredible accomplishment.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And he wants to know Mr. Kennedy, do you agree?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Mr. Secretary, do you agree with me that the President deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed? Absolutely, Senator, let me ask you.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

So Kennedy says, yes, absolutely, Senator, I do think you should win a Nobel Prize. And Cassidy is not buying it.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. It surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when, as an attorney, you attempted to restrict access. Yeah, I'm happy to explain why. I had 3 minutes and 30 seconds left. It also surprises me.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. Cassidy is saying you can't simultaneously claim that Operation Warp Speed and Trump's Covid vaccines are this monumental achievement and then do all these things that cast aspersions on the COVID vaccine, the technology behind it. He's saying, you can't have it both ways.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Right. But Cassidy himself is trying to have it both ways. He's trying to make nice to President Trump, saying he deserves a Nobel Prize, but he's also trying to lean hard into Trump's health secretary and push him in a direction toward vaccines that he doesn't want to go.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. The only way to criticize Kennedy in this moment is by somehow simultaneously praising Trump.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Exactly.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Senator Barrasso, thanks. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, thanks for being.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And we see another Republican senator, also a Dr. John Barasso of Wyoming, use exactly the same strategy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I believe one of President Trump's greatest achievements was his bold and successful actions on Covid. But this wasn't the first time an American president acted boldly to address disease and vaccines.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

He compares President Trump to George Washington during the Revolutionary War, when Washington ordered all of his troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

And like President Trump, I believe President Washington acted decisively to protect Americans lives at a time of great national peril.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

He says, I support vaccines. Vaccines work.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles, outbreaks, leadership.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

But now he says, I'm very concerned about you, Secretary Kennedy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Americans don't know who to rely on.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

He tells them. I'm hearing from physicians, from parents back home in Wyoming. They're worried, they're confused. They don't want these infectious diseases to come back.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined. So could you explain what steps you're going to be taking to ensure vaccine guidance is clear, evidence based and trustworthy? We're going to make it clear, evidence based and trustworthy. For the first time in history.

[Michael Barbaro]

And so suddenly, with this very pointed set of questions from Senator Barrasso, we see that Senator Cassidy is no longer alone in being kind of openly anguished over whether or not Kennedy's approach to vaccines is tolerable.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Right. And there's a third senator.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I'm not a doctor. I'm not a trial lawyer. I'm a boring management consultant.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

A third Republican Senator, Thom Tillis of North Carolina, who takes a slightly different tack. He says, hey, I'm a little confused here, Secretary Kennedy, by what you're doing. A month ago, when we voted to confirm the CDC director, you told us she was brilliant and terrific and you trusted her.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

And I don't see how you go over four weeks from a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials, a longtime champion of maha values, caring and compassionate and brilliant microbiologists, and four weeks later, fire her.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Because how did you have this turnabout all of a sudden? What caused this?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

So, as somebody who advised executives on hiring strategies, number one, I would suggest in the interview, you ask them if they're truthful rather than four weeks after we took the time of the US Senate to confirm the person, just.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

And he ticks off a number of questions, sort of in that vein, I.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Do also believe that some of your statements seem to contradict what you said in the prior hearing. You said you're going to empower the scientists at HHS to do their job. I'd just like to see evidence where you've done that.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

He's saying that he is frankly confused by Kennedy's words and his actions and whether or not they match up.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You'll have the opportunity to submit written responses to questions which I'm going to reference in a minute, and you could make any further statements that you would like to make at that point. Bill, I think I'll have mercy on everybody here and let us adjourn. All right. Wise choice, Cheryl.

[Michael Barbaro]

When this hearing was over, what felt genuinely new about what had happened in this room was. And you said this earlier, not that Democrats are disgusted with rfk, because they were disgusted from the moment he was nominated. And yes, their disgust has intensified. It was the Republican dismay with Kennedy, the open dismay, and the articulation of a strategy that seemed aimed to discredit Kennedy to a degree. And the question is, where does that lead? If Trump were too ever sour on Kennedy and to push him out as Health Secretary, that would be enormously consequential, but we have no evidence that that is ever going to Happen. The Make America Healthy Again movement is exceptionally influential, and it feels like a tent pole of Trump's coalition at this point, just really important to him. And so what seems more likely is Kennedy will stay in this job and keep pushing the entire Republican Party towards greater skepticism and criticism of vaccines.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Yeah, I mean, I think we're already seeing that. We're already seeing the partisan split over vaccination now playing out in the states. Just this week, Florida announced that it would be the first state to eliminate its childhood school vaccine requirements.

[Michael Barbaro]

And just to talk about what a big deal that is, I mean, Florida not asking students to get measles vaccine, polio vaccine, hepatitis vaccine would be a very meaningful change to a hugely populous state.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

That's right. Not only that a populous state, but a state with a lot of elderly people, a state with a big tourist industry. And we know that when vaccination rates dip, infectious disease comes back. At the same time, a collection of blue states have also said they're going to reject CDC vaccine recommendations in favor of their own stricter or more aggressive recommendations for vaccination. Those states are Oregon, Washington, and California. They have kind of banded together in a coalition to put forth their own public health recommendations. And also Massachusetts has said it will put forth its own public health recommendations and no longer rely on those issued by the federal government.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And in a sense, you're seeing states already scrambling to inhabit this new world that Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. And his skeptical approach to vaccines has created. Some are formally adopting his skepticism, like Florida has. Others, Washington, California, Oregon are racing to insulate themselves from it. But clearly, those actions crystallized just how much local governments now feel like they're living in a new world. And it's Kennedy's world.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Yes. I mean, for nearly 70 years since the CDC was established, it has been the public health authority for the nation. It can't set policy for the nation. Vaccine policy is the province of the states. But states have always followed the CDC's recommendations, and we are now seeing that fall apart. And here in Washington, there's kind of a reckoning going on among these Republicans who all voted for Kennedy seven months ago. @ least one Cassidy with serious reservations, who are now recognizing that the thing they feared is actually happening, and it's too late to stop it.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Cheryl, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Thank you, Michael.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back. This podcast is supported by the American Petroleum Institute. Energy demand is rising, and the infrastructure we build today will power generations to come. We can deliver affordable, reliable, and innovative energy solutions for all Americans. But we need to overhaul our broken permitting process to make that happen. It's time to modernize and build, because when America builds, America wins. Read API's plan to secure America's future at permitting reformnow.org Ollie knows the back.

[Advertisement/Announcer]

To school chaos all too well. Schedules, carpools, relearning algebra 2 it's a lot for you and your crew. Olli makes wellness an easy and delightful part of your routine. Need immune support? Kids will enjoy Try Kids Multiplus Probiotic Is bedtime a struggle? Go with kids, sleep for gentle support moms Support your immune system, nutrition and more with Women's multi. Grab these [e-mail], or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here's what else you need. Tanner Day the Times reports that the Justice Department has opened a fraud investigation into Federal Reserve governor Lisa Cook, escalating President Trump's efforts to fire her. The White House has accused Cook of falsely claiming in mortgage applications that two separate properties were both her primary residence. But on Thursday, the Investigative news site ProPublica reported that at least three members of Trump's own cabinet have committed the same act in mortgage documents, suggesting that Trump's outrage over Cook's conduct is highly selective. A quick reminder, we're bringing you something new on Sundays all this fall, my colleague Gilbert Cruz talks arts and culture with a rotating cast of critics, editors, reporters and writers. This week, just in time for the new academic year, Gilbert speaks with Lewis Sachar, author of the Wayside School series and the novel Holes. And to an editor at the Times Book Review, Sadie Stein, about the books that can make kids fall in love with reading. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Olivia Natty and Alex Stern. It was edited by Rachel Quester and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balboro. See you on Monday.

[Advertisement/Announcer]

Ollie knows the back to school chaos all too well. Schedules, carpools, relearning algebra 2. It's a lot for you and your crew. Ollie makes wellness an easy and delightful part of your routine. Need immune support? Kids will enjoy. Try Kids Multi plus Probiotic Is bedtime a struggle? Go with kids, Sleep for gentle support moms Support your immune system, nutrition and more with women's multi. Grab these [e-mail] or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose treat, cure or prevent any disease.