Shen Yun: The Dark Side of a Dance Troupe

Summary

Summary of "Shen Yun: The Dark Side of a Dance Troupe" – The Daily, The New York Times (April 2, 2025)

Hosted by Michael Barbaro

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Introduction to Shen Yun

Rachel Abrams opens the episode by highlighting the widespread presence of Shen Yun billboards in New York City, characterized by pastel colors, dancers in flowing attire, and inspirational slogans. Despite their ubiquity, many, including Abrams herself, had not delved deeper into the nature of Shen Yun until Nicole Hong conducted an extensive investigation.

"I have seen billboards for Shen Yun literally all over New York City. They are pastel colored. They show people dancing. They're wearing this sort of long, flowy, diaphanous clothing."
— Rachel Abrams [00:34]

Understanding Shen Yun

Michael Rothfeld explains that Shen Yun presents itself as a performing arts group specializing in traditional Chinese dance accompanied by a full orchestra. The troupe is renowned for its high-caliber performances and pervasive advertising campaigns.

"So on the surface, Shen Yun is this performing arts group. They tour around the world. They perform traditional Chinese dance accompanied with a full orchestra."
— Michael Rothfeld [01:55]

Nicole Hong adds that Shen Yun's advertising often features vague yet inspiring slogans, aiming to attract a broad audience without immediately disclosing the underlying messages.

"This season, take an Incredible journey through 5000 years of culture with Shen Yun."
— Nicole Hong [02:30]

The Revelation: Shen Yun as Propaganda

During a Boston performance, Michael Rothfeld observes that Shen Yun incorporates spiritual and political narratives into their dances, notably depicting the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

"There's this one dance number we saw where a performer is dressed as a police officer for the Chinese Communist Party, and he is beating up this innocent man with a baton in a violent way."
— Michael Rothfeld [04:00]

This realization propels the investigation into Shen Yun's true purpose: spreading the ideology of Falun Gong and portraying it as a force battling the CCP's oppression.

Falun Gong: Origins and Persecution

Michael Rothfeld provides a background on Falun Gong, a spiritual movement founded in China in the early 1990s by Li Hongzhi, a former grain clerk. Combining elements of Buddhism and qigong, Falun Gong swiftly amassed millions of followers, leading to its widespread popularity both within China and internationally.

"The religious movement, Falun Gong, began in China in the early 1990s... It combines elements of Buddhism with these ancient Chinese energy-based exercises."
— Michael Rothfeld [06:26]

The rapid growth of Falun Gong attracted the CCP's ire, culminating in a severe crackdown starting in April 1999. The government labeled Falun Gong as an "evil cult," initiating mass arrests, torture, and propaganda campaigns to discredit the movement.

"Thousands of Falun Gong practitioners are imprisoned. They are sent to labor camps. They are tortured, they are beaten, and some of them never make it out."
— Michael Rothfeld [10:27]

Shen Yun: A Vehicle for Falun Gong's Agenda

In response to the persecution, Li Hongzhi and his followers established Shen Yun in 2006 as a means to garner international attention and support for Falun Gong. The performances are imbued with narratives that emphasize the struggle between Falun Gong and the CCP, effectively serving both as cultural showcases and ideological propaganda.

"Shen Yun is about spreading the message of this religious movement, Falun Gong, to a mainstream audience."
— Michael Rothfeld [05:20]

Exploitation of Performers and Followers

The investigation reveals that Shen Yun's operations heavily exploit its performers and followers:

1. Performers: Many dancers and musicians join Shen Yun at a young age, often residing at the Dragon Springs compound where they undergo grueling training regimes. These performers work excessive hours with minimal or no compensation, enduring strict control over their personal lives and access to information.

   "They were encouraged to inform on your classmates if you see them breaking the rules, and then the rule breakers can actually face these public critique sessions in front of all of their peers."
   — Michael Rothfeld [19:13]

2. Financial Exploitation: Local Falun Gong followers fund Shen Yun's extensive productions through donations and direct financial contributions. Shen Yun operates as a nonprofit but amassed $266 million in assets by the end of 2023, raising questions about the transparency and allocation of these funds.

   "By the end of 2023, they have $266 million in assets. They're making tens of millions of dollars a year in ticket sales."
   — Michael Rothfeld [13:33]

3. Media Manipulation: Shen Yun operates a sophisticated media network, including the Epoch Times, which not only promotes Shen Yun through favorable coverage but also suppresses criticism by controlling narratives and attacking detractors.

   "We found out about this meeting in 2023 where he [Li Hongzhi] gave direct editorial guidance to top Epoch Times editors."
   — Michael Rothfeld [29:42]

Financial Misappropriations and Abuse

A poignant example highlighted is the case of a Shen Yun bookkeeper who, despite donating extensively to the organization, faced severe financial and health consequences. Her medical bills were unpayable due to her donations, and unauthorized luxury purchases on her credit card suggested misallocation of funds intended for Shen Yun.

"The bookkeeper had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for purchases that her family believed were for the Li family and for Shen Yun."
— Michael Rothfeld [26:48]

Media Influence: Epoch Times

The Epoch Times, established by Falun Gong followers, plays a crucial role in promoting Shen Yun and Falun Gong's narratives. Initially focused on exposing CCP abuses, the newspaper shifted towards promoting right-wing conspiracy theories and supporting political figures like former President Donald Trump.

"They have published more than 17,000 articles about Shen Yun, typically glowing audience testimonials after each show."
— Michael Rothfeld [28:58]

Internal documents reveal that negative coverage of Shen Yun is systematically suppressed, and editorial decisions are directly influenced by Falun Gong leadership.

"We found out about this meeting in 2023 where he [Li Hongzhi] gave direct editorial guidance to top Epoch Times editors."
— Michael Rothfeld [29:42]

Reactions and Consequences of the Investigation

Following the publication of the investigation, Shen Yun and Falun Gong have vehemently denied all allegations. They have labeled the New York Times reporters as Chinese spies and mounted personal attacks against them, including disseminating false information aimed at discrediting their credibility.

"They say that our sources are Chinese spies. They're agents of the Chinese government. Their followers have relentlessly attacked the Times. They've attacked me personally."
— Michael Rothfeld [30:54]

Regulatory bodies have initiated inquiries into Shen Yun's labor practices and financial operations. Additionally, legal actions have been filed against the troupe, alleging forced labor and exploitation of performers.

"New York State regulators have been looking into Shen Yun for their labor practices. We also found out that there's a federal criminal investigation into Shen Yun, including into their finances."
— Michael Rothfeld [30:29]

Conclusion: A Persecutor Transformed

The investigation underscores a troubling irony: Shen Yun, established as a refuge for persecuted Falun Gong practitioners, now exhibits coercive and exploitative practices reminiscent of the very suppression it fled from China. Former practitioners express profound disillusionment, revealing how their aspirations for freedom and spiritual fulfillment were subverted by Shen Yun's demanding and oppressive structure.

"This has come up over and over again in our interviews with people who either personally survived the persecution in China or had family members go through it. They've come to the United States as refugees... it was especially devastating once they actually saw how the group operated."
— Michael Rothfeld [31:38]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "So this show has ended up becoming this huge moneymaker for Falun Gong."
  — Michael Rothfeld [13:33]

• "Any mistakes they made on stage could actually doom their audiences to hell."
  — Michael Rothfeld [22:15]

• "We've actually obtained internal editing guides that said anything negative about Shen Yun could not be published."
  — Michael Rothfeld [29:42]

• "It's something that's come up over and over again in our interviews with people who either personally survived the persecution in China or had family members go through it."
  — Michael Rothfeld [31:38]

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Final Remarks:

Nicole Hong's investigative reporting on Shen Yun reveals a complex and troubling network of exploitation, financial opacity, and ideological manipulation under the guise of cultural preservation and artistic performance. The episode serves as a stark reminder of how movements seeking refuge and recognition can sometimes mirror the oppressive dynamics they escape.

Transcript

[Rachel Abrams]

This podcast is supported by Betterment.

[Nicole Hong]

To be invested with Betterment is to believe in better, whether it's saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow. We help people and small businesses put their money to work. We automate to make saving simpler. We optimize to make investing smarter. We build innovative technology backed by financial experts. For anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better, so be invested in better with Betterment. Get [e-mail] Investing involves risk performance, not guarantee. Guaranteed.

[Rachel Abrams]

From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams. This is the Daily A few days ago, one of the most ubiquitous live shows in the country, Shen Yun began its latest run at arguably its most prestigious venue, Lincoln Center. It's drawn thousands of people to a performance that is colorful, acrobatic, and, according to many of its performers, shockingly abusive. Today, my colleague Nicole Hong on what a Times investigation has found about this secretive and sprawling Enterprise. It's Wednesday, April 2nd. Nicole I have seen billboards for Shen Yun literally all over New York City. They are pastel colored. They show people dancing. They're wearing this sort of long, flowy, diaphanous clothing. But I will admit this. I don't think I've ever actually bothered to look into what these billboards were actually advertising. And now you've done this big investigation into Shen Yun, which I'm really excited to talk about, we're gonna get to in a minute. But first, can you just tell us, what exactly is Shen Yun?

[Michael Rothfeld]

So on the surface, Shen Yun is this performing arts group. They tour around the world. They perform traditional Chinese dance accompanied with a full orchestra, and most people know them because of their advertising.

[Nicole Hong]

Every once in a while, something comes along so masterful it leaves you in awe.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Their billboards are everywhere.

[Nicole Hong]

So inspiring. Inspiring. It changes your life.

[Michael Rothfeld]

We've seen TV ads, flyers on storefronts, direct mailers into our mailboxes.

[Nicole Hong]

This season, take an Incredible journey through 5000 years of culture with Shen Yun.

[Michael Rothfeld]

And they're often advertising these vague slogans.

[Nicole Hong]

It's the beautiful culture and wisdom of China before communism.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Like China before communism or 5000 years of civilization reborn.

[Nicole Hong]

See it at least once in your lifetime. Shen Yun an all new production every year.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Like many people, I have seen these for years and never thought twice about what this group was.

[Rachel Abrams]

They were just part of the landscape.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yes, but in late 2023, my reporting partner, Michael Rothfeld got a tip from someone who was familiar with the inner workings of Shen Yun and said we should take a closer look at their operations. So we Started making phone calls. And of course, we also decided to go to one of their shows in Boston.

[Rachel Abrams]

And what was that like?

[Michael Rothfeld]

So the tickets were actually quite expensive. Our tickets were over $200.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wow. Okay. It's like going to Broadway.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yeah. And the show is basically a series of short, very choreographed dance and music pieces. And a lot of the scenes are retelling traditional Chinese folktales and mythology. And the level of dancing is very high level. As I was watching it, it reminded me of Olympic gymnastics or ballet. It's a lot of flips and splits in the air, that kind of thing. But as you get deeper into the show, you start to realize there's also something else going on, which is that there's a sort of spiritual and political element to some of these pieces. So, for example, there's this one dance number we saw where a performer is dressed as a police officer for the Chinese Communist Party, and he is beating up this innocent man with a baton in a violent way. And it turns out this man is getting beaten for practicing a religion called Falun Gong. And it becomes clear to you as an audience member as the show progresses, that the show is presenting this religion, Falun Gong, as a force for good, fighting against the evil of the Chinese government.

[Rachel Abrams]

So that is not at all what I was expecting. I mean, I expected that you were going to tell me that it was a show with dancing and colorful costumes and being transported to faraway places, but I did not expect that there would be this whole underlying religious and political message.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Right. This is not just a dance group. Shen Yun is about spreading the message of this religious movement, Falun Gong, to a mainstream audience. And I got to witness this firsthand, because when I went to the Boston show, the man sitting next to me I saw at intermission, was googling on his phone, what is Falun Gong? So that indicated to me that the message was penetrating. It was coming through to this audience.

[Rachel Abrams]

Member, which is what they want.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Exactly. But at the time, we didn't fully understand the bigger picture. We didn't yet know what was really happening behind the scenes. And when we dug more into Shenyun, what we uncovered through many, many months of reporting was this massive operation built on exploitation and coercion, all in service of Falun Gong's religious leader, who has turned Shen Yun into a major source of wealth and influence for his movement. Hmm.

[Rachel Abrams]

So tell me about this man and this religious movement.

[Michael Rothfeld]

So this religious movement, Falun Gong, began in China in the early 1990s, and it was started by this man Whose Chinese name is Li Hongzhi. He was actually a grain clerk. But somewhere along the way, he starts traveling across China to introduce this new movement he's created. It combines elements of Buddhism with these ancient Chinese energy based exercises that are known as qigong. These are basically slow movements where you move your hands and arms around the body to circulate energy. And Lee is teaching his followers his version of these exercises, along with spiritual texts that he's written. And he's promoting this religion not only as a way to improve your health physically, but he's also saying that this can help you reach enlightenment, that this is the roadmap to becoming a better and more moral person.

[Rachel Abrams]

Okay, so far, all of this sounds pretty on par with what you would expect a lot of religions to be.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yes. But once you get deeper into the teachings, there are more mystical elements that come up. For example, he has said that advanced practitioners can develop supernatural powers, like the ability to levitate or the ability to see through walls.

[Rachel Abrams]

Okay, so that seems kind of out there. Are people buying into it?

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yeah. So it's important to understand the context of what was going on in China at the time. This is the 1990s. It was a of economic and political turmoil. Mao Zedong, the Communist Party leader, had died not that long ago, and Mao had tried to stamp out traditional culture and traditional religions during his rule. So when he died, it left a spiritual vacuum in the country. And his death led to this revival of spiritual life in China, including ancient practices like qigong. So as a result, by the mid-1990s, Falun Gong has followers all over China. Many of them said their health did improve through the meditation exercises. And so the practice becomes extremely popular.

[Rachel Abrams]

So very quickly, it sounds like it becomes a national movement.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yeah, and not just a national movement, but an international one. Lee actually started taking his lectures and his teachings to the Chinese diaspora overseas. And it catches on in many countries like Australia, Canada, and the US as well.

[Rachel Abrams]

The Chinese government has been concerned at how Falun Gong has gained adherence within the political establishment.

[Michael Rothfeld]

But this is where it gets the attention of the Chinese Communist Party.

[James Rubin]

The group claims its practitioners include as many as 100 million people in China, a figure disputed by the Chinese government.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Obviously, this is an authoritarian regime. They are suspicious of any group they cannot control, especially one that can mobilize large groups of people very quickly. And all of this comes to a head in April 1999.

[James Rubin]

10,000 people gathered in Beijing at the government leader's compound, known as Jingnan high.

[Michael Rothfeld]

More than 10,000 Falun Gong followers had this rally in Beijing.

[James Rubin]

It was the largest public assembly in the Chinese capital since the Tiananmen Square demonstrations a decade ago.

[Michael Rothfeld]

And after the rally, this is where the persecution really starts.

[James Rubin]

Today in Beijing, arrests of Falun Gong practitioners continued.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Police and paramilitaries have been drafted into railway stations and bus depots to to prevent members of the sect traveling to Beijing to protest. Falun Gong is banned in China. China puts out an arrest warrant for Li.

[James Rubin]

Meanwhile, Chinese state television is running an almost constant video campaign against the group. Newscasts have run pictures showing the group's literature and audio cassettes being crushed by a steamroller.

[Michael Rothfeld]

The leadership is now trying to discredit Falun Gong with a barrage of propaganda aimed at showing that devotion can lead to insanity, suicide or murder. They start calling this group a quote, evil cult, which the group has vehemently denied. The group has followers in the Communist Party and the military, and many of them have now been sent for so called re education in Marxist ideology. And thousands of Falun Gong practitioners are imprisoned. They are sent to labor camps. They are tortured, they are beaten, and some of them never make it out. They died in custody during long prison terms. It was an incredibly brutal response that led many people abroad, including lawmakers in the United States, to consider Falun Gong a persecuted group and a victim of human rights abuses.

[James Rubin]

Last week, as the Chinese government stepped up its crackdown against the group, State Department spokesman James Rubin expressed concern. We are disturbed by reports of some heavy handed tactics being used to prevent Chinese citizens from exercising internationally protected fundamental rights and freedoms.

[Michael Rothfeld]

And I think it's also important to note that this suppression continues to this day.

[Rachel Abrams]

This is starting to explain the scenes in the play that you described of the man who's practicing Falun Gong being beaten. This is starting to make sense now.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Exactly.

[Rachel Abrams]

You mentioned Lee earlier, the founder of Falun Gong. So where is he in the middle of all this?

[Michael Rothfeld]

So by the late 1990s, in the middle of the persecution, Lee and his family have settled in the United States, in New York. This is now his new home base where he directs this global movement. And the persecution becomes this huge galvanizing and organizing force. And at this point, Lee's teachings actually take on an apocalyptic tone. He starts to portray the situation as this existential battle between the Chinese government and Falun Gong. It becomes a fight for survival. So in part, to draw global attention to the persecution and to continue to spread the religion, Li and his followers have this idea to put on a traveling show. And that's how in 2006. Shen Yoon was born.

[Rachel Abrams]

Got it. So everything you just said really helps to explain the show and the framing around, as you described it, good versus evil and Falun Gong versus the Chinese Communist Party. But given that this show is essentially propaganda, it does sort of surprise me that it's gotten so ubiquitous that it has billboards literally all over the world. So how successful could the show actually be?

[Michael Rothfeld]

So this show has ended up becoming this huge moneymaker for Falun Gong. We are able to look at their tax records because it's registered as a nonprofit. And by the end of 2023, they have $266 million in assets. They're making tens of millions of dollars a year in ticket sales, and they're stockpiling assets at a rate that would be extraordinary for any type of performing arts company. Right, Let alone this nonprofit dance group.

[Rachel Abrams]

So how is this possible? How are they making so much money with this show?

[Michael Rothfeld]

It's possible because Lee has these legions of followers in countries all over the world who are devoted to him, devoted to this fight against the Chinese Communist Party, and are willing to make all of these sacrifices for him. But what our reporting uncovered was the extent of that sacrifice. Because the success of Shen Yun has also come at this extraordinary cost. And much of it has been at the expense of Lee's most loyal followers, who have sometimes dedicated their entire lives and livelihoods to carry out his vision.

[Rachel Abrams]

We'll be right back.

[Nicole Hong]

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[Valerie Hopkins]

I'm Valerie Hopkins. I cover Russia for the New York Times. It's pretty difficult to report from Russia. Often I'm the only New York Times reporter in the country. When I'm talking to Russians, people sometimes ignore me. Or worse. Okay, he didn't want to talk. It's not always easy approaching Russians as an American. Sometimes these discussions are uncomfortable, but they're important because Times readers really benefit from hearing what ordinary Russians think. Very often it's different from the expectations people might have. I keep working in Russia because what happens here matters, and our audience deserves to get a Broad perspective of the world that they live in. If you want to make sure we can keep doing this work, subscribe to the New York Times.

[Rachel Abrams]

So, Nicole, your investigation pulls back the curtain on the inner workings of this show. And what you found is a system that's far more complex and sounds like it exploits people in a way that might not be apparent at first blush. So walk us through how all of this works.

[Michael Rothfeld]

So there are three main ways that Shenyun is essentially built on the backs of its followers. One has to do with the performers in Shenyun, the dancers and musicians. The second has to do with the Falun Gong followers who helped to finance the shows. And the third way involves the Falun Gong practitioners who run and operate this sophisticated media network to promote the show and also attack its critics.

[Rachel Abrams]

So let's start with the first piece that you outlined. The people who are actually performing in these shows, how do they fit in?

[Michael Rothfeld]

So we interviewed dozens of dancers, musicians, and instructors who used to perform for Shen Yun or work for Shen Yun. And what we learned was that many of the performers in Shen Yun are brought to New York when they are as young as 11 years old. They come from all over the world, and they've typically grown up in Falun Gong households. This is the religion that they practiced with their parents, and their parents were very eager to send them to Shenyun because this dance group is seen as a holy honor for any practitioner to participate in. And the way they join this group is that they're brought to this enormous 400 acre compound called Dragon Springs, where Lee himself is based. And just to illustrate how they view him there at Dragon Springs, there is this giant golden Buddha statue. The face of this Buddha looks a lot like Lee.

[Rachel Abrams]

Oh, wow. So it sounds like he's basically made himself into, like, a godlike figure.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yeah. Many Falun Gong practitioners see him as a living God. They want their kids to be close to Lee. And so these young performers end up living and training at Dragon Springs, sometimes well into their 20s.

[Rachel Abrams]

So what is daily life actually like for these young students who end up living at the compound?

[Michael Rothfeld]

What we found in our interviews is that it was a very grueling environment, both physically and mentally. Many of them described often working or training 15 hours a day, six days a week. They're essentially working a professional workload as students, but they're getting little to no pay. We spoke to a lot of people who said they weren't paid at all during their first year on tour. Their access to outside information is heavily controlled. Some students told us they got in trouble if they were caught watching unapproved movies or listening to music that was created after the year 1900.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wow. Okay.

[Michael Rothfeld]

You're encouraged to inform on your classmates if you see them breaking the rules, and then the rule breakers can actually face these public critique sessions in front of all of their peers. And one of the things we heard repeatedly from people is that they were discouraged from seeking medical help if they got injured. And this is tied to Li's teachings. He says that negative karma causes illness and that if you're a true believer, you can expel that from your body. So, for example, we spoke to one dancer who said that right before a performance, she was practicing a flip and then dislocated her kneecap. One of her classmates popped it back into place, and she just performed through it for two hours in completely excruciating pain. But she was terrified to ask for medical treatment, and she also didn't get any, because if you do, you get shamed as someone who is not a devout Falun Gong practitioner. There was also this former violinist in Shen Yun's orchestra who told us that he started feeling these sharp pains in his shoulder. So he was brought to see Li, who touched his shoulder and then told him he was healed. When the pain kept going, the violinist classmates told him, oh, that's because your faith is not strong enough. It wasn't until years later that he discovered the cause of the pain was actually a bulging disc in his spine. And this was a consistent theme that we heard from a lot of people.

[Rachel Abrams]

The conditions sound so extreme. Some of the injuries that you just described, having to dance through a busted kneecap. Why do people put up with this? Or why do their parents let them stay?

[Michael Rothfeld]

It has a lot to do with what Lee was telling the performers about their duty to Shen Yun. We learn that Lee was telling them the purpose of a Shen Yun show is not only to educate audiences, but to actually save them from the end times, this end times that is coming. The idea is that if audience members believe in Falun Gong's message, they'll be saved when the universe is destroyed. And some of the performers said they were told that any mistakes they made on stage could actually doom their audiences to hell.

[Rachel Abrams]

So these young people aren't just performing. They actually believe they are responsible for people's salvation.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yes. One of the dancers we talked to said he had this attitude that if he did not do well as a Shen Yun performer, then the universe wouldn't be saved, and it would be his fault.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wow.

[Michael Rothfeld]

So this is the kind of pressure that a lot of these performers, many of whom are teenagers, are hearing. Another reason that many of them are terrified to leave is financial. They get free tuition, free housing, free food. It's a full scholarship to a boarding school, essentially. And when they try to quit, many of them are told, if you leave, you're gonna have to pay all of that back. Now, we did not actually hear from anyone that they tried to seek repayment, but the threat of it was enough to keep many of them there.

[Rachel Abrams]

So basically, all of these different incentives, all of these different pressures are allowing Lee to get cheap or free labor from these young people.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yes, and that's not the only way his followers are propping up the mission. They're also giving large amounts of their money to Lee's movement. So the way these Shen Yun shows work, they put on hundreds of shows a year during their world tour. And there are a lot of costs to putting on a show. For example, the ads, the billboards. Someone has to go out and print the flyers and put them up in storefronts. Someone has to pay for hotel rooms and meals for the performers. Someone has to book the venue in each location. Most of the costs for putting on that show are taken on by local followers of Falun Gong.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wait, so the followers are actually putting up the money for the production costs of the show?

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yes. And these are essentially unpaid volunteers who organize to put on Shen Yun shows. And if the shows do well, they get their money back. But any profit has to go back to Shen Yun. If the shows lose money, the followers are the ones responsible for making up that shortfall.

[Rachel Abrams]

So they're in a very vulnerable position.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Right. We've also obtained internal messages to Falun Gong followers that say a show in this particular city is not selling well. So you guys either need to work harder to sell tickets, or you need to buy up some of them yourself. And Lee has publicly said that ticket sales are a sign of your spiritual devotion. So many followers feel this urgent pressure to sell as many tickets as they can. And this helps explain why, in your local city, you might see so many ads for Shen Yun.

[Rachel Abrams]

And all of this helps explain why they could be so incredibly profitable. Right, but where is the money going? Like, how is it being used?

[Michael Rothfeld]

So we don't exactly know. A lot of their financial records are opaque, and we can't see where the money is going. But we did uncover the story of one Falun Gong follower that could offer us a clue. So there was this woman who was Shen Yun's bookkeeper. She was a very, very devoted practitioner. Both of her kids performed with Shen Yun. She spent most of her time at Dragon Springs working for Shen Yun and for the Li family. And around 2018, 2019, she was getting very sick. Because she was a diligent Falun Gong believer, she resisted seeing a doctor for a long time. When she finally did, she found out that she had kidney cancer. But she told her kids that she wouldn't be able to pay for medical treatment because she had donated all of her money to Dragon Springs.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wow.

[Michael Rothfeld]

And this was a huge shock to them. But after the bookkeeper died of cancer, a Shen Yun employee accidentally mailed the bookkeeper's credit card statement to her family. What they eventually saw in the statements were tens of thousands of dollars in purchases of luxury goods from brand names like Hermes, Van Cleef, and Ferragamo. We've heard from many former performers that Lee's wife liked to dress well. She liked to wear luxury brands. The bookkeeper had also spent money on custom billiard cues. And we know that Lee loves to play pool.

[Rachel Abrams]

So basically, the assessment was that these purchases were likely for the Lee family.

[Michael Rothfeld]

What we found was that she was spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for purchases that her family believed were for the Li family and for Shen Yun. I see. Yes. We also found that she was paying for the monthly cell phone bills of Li and his wife. And our reporting showed that some of the money was repaid to her family. But because it was all part of this confidentiality agreement, we don't know a lot of the details.

[Rachel Abrams]

So the purchases, the fact that she didn't seek medical treatment, the fact that she didn't have money when she did seek medical treatment. It seems like this bookkeeper is emblematic of how much these followers are giving to Falun Gong, whether it's their money or their labor. And it also shows the extent to which this institution, and maybe even the lifestyle of the Lee family is made possible by these sacrifices.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yeah.

[Rachel Abrams]

I also want to come back to something you said earlier, because you mentioned that even beyond all of that, there's actually a third piece of this puzzle, right?

[Michael Rothfeld]

That is their media arm, primarily a newspaper run by Falun Gong practitioners called the Epoch Times.

[Rachel Abrams]

I've heard of it, but tell us a little bit more about it.

[Michael Rothfeld]

So this newspaper has been around since the persecution. It was initially started by Falun Gong followers in the year 2000 as a way to raise awareness about human rights abuses in China, including the persecution of Falun Gong. And it specifically rose to prominence in the US after the 2016 presidential election by promoting right wing conspiracy theories and also by embracing President Donald J. Trump as someone who supports the paper's opposition to the Chinese Communist Party. And in fact, Kash Patel, who was recently confirmed as Trump's FBI director, actually had a show with the Epoch Times in recent years where he got a sit down interview with Trump. But beyond their political coverage, what our investigation found was that they have also published more than 17,000 articles about Shen Yun.

[Rachel Abrams]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Rothfeld]

And they're typically glowing audience testimonials after each show. We found that they have this special team of reporters that go to the shows who are almost always Falun Gong followers. They're often working all night, getting very little sleep, to get these reviews published as quickly as possible.

[Rachel Abrams]

And do we know how influential they've actually been, though?

[Michael Rothfeld]

So we don't exactly know how much influence this coverage has had. Like, for example, we don't know how many ticket sales can be attributed to Epoch Times coverage. But this is some pretty unusual editorial treatment for a newspaper to give to a dance show.

[Rachel Abrams]

Right.

[Michael Rothfeld]

We actually obtained internal editing guides that said anything negative about Shen Yun could not be published. And Lee himself has way more influence over the newspaper's operations than we realized. So, for example, we found out about this meeting in 2023 where he gave direct editorial guidance to top Epoch Times editors.

[Rachel Abrams]

So it seems clear that even if we can't pinpoint exactly how influential the Epoch Times is in this larger ecosystem, it is part of this huge network that you've helped to reveal in your reporting. And that network seems like at the center of it are these followers who in many cases have been quite mistreated. I'm curious about the response to that part of your reporting, about that mistreatment.

[Michael Rothfeld]

So since we've published our reporting, New York State regulators have been looking into Shen Yun for their labor practices. We also found out that there's a federal criminal investigation into Shen Yun, including into their finances, and a former dancer has sued them and accused them of forced labor.

[Rachel Abrams]

And how has Li and Falun Gong responded to all of this?

[Michael Rothfeld]

They've denied wrongdoing. They say that everything they're doing is legal. A major part of their response to our reporting is to say that our sources are Chinese spies. They're agents of the Chinese government. You know, their followers have relentlessly attacked the Times. They've attacked me personally.

[Rachel Abrams]

Oh, wow. During the course of your reporting.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Yeah. They've even published false information about my family all over the Internet, calling All of us agents of the Chinese government. So this is their playbook for responding to scrutiny or criticism. And you can often see a lot of these responses published in the Epoch Times as news articles.

[Rachel Abrams]

You know, I can't help but notice that there's a certain kind of irony here that this group that flees China because of persecution comes to the United States and kind of starts acting like a persecutor just in terms of what they're doing to crack down on dissent and keep their followers in line.

[Michael Rothfeld]

So that has been one of the themes that has really stuck with me throughout this reporting. It's something that's come up over and over again in our interviews with people who either personally survived the persecution in China or had family members go through it. They've come to the United States as refugees. They're seeking asylum. They want to be able to practice their religion freely and chase the American dream here. And many of them were so happy when they got into Shen Yun. And when they got to Dragon Springs, they just felt this overwhelming sense of relief. So it was especially devastating once they actually saw how the group operated, that this thing that they had devoted their entire lives to turned out to be something completely different.

[Rachel Abrams]

Nicole, thank you so much.

[Michael Rothfeld]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rachel Abrams]

We'll be right back. I'm David Marchese. And I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. And we're the hosts of the Interview from the New York Times. David and I have spent our career interviewing some of the most interesting and influential people in the world, which means we know when to ask tough questions and when to just sit back and listen. And now we've teamed up to have these conversations every week. We'll try to reveal something about the people shaping our world. And we'll get some great stories from them, too. It's the Interview from the New York Times. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Here's what else you need to know. Today in the closely watched race for control of Wisconsin's state Supreme Court, the liberal candidate has soundly defeated the conservative. It was a major victory for Democrats in an election that had become a referendum on President Trump and Elon Musk, who spent $25 million supporting the Republican aligned candidate. Musk's interest in the race was so intense that he offered $100 to any Register who signed a petition related to the race and then entered those voters into a lottery to win a check for $1 million.

[Cory Booker]

And tonight, I rise with the intention of getting in some good trouble. I rise with the intention of disrupting the normal business of the United States Senate for as long as I am physically able. I rise tonight because I believe sincerely that our country is in crisis.

[Rachel Abrams]

And I believe that On Tuesday night, New Jersey Senator Cory Booker broke the record for speaking on the Senate floor more than 25 hours without a break, during which he criticized the Trump administration for violating the Constitution and disregarding the needs of everyday Americans.

[Cory Booker]

And so I've tried over the last 25 hours and 1 minute to center the conversation back on what will we do of good conscience?

[Rachel Abrams]

The marathon speech beat the record set in 1957 by South Carolina Senator Strom Thurmond when he tried to block passage of a civil rights bill.

[Cory Booker]

This is a moral moment. It's not left or right. It's right or wrong. It's getting good trouble, my friend. Madam President, I yield the floor.

[Rachel Abrams]

Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan with help from Diana Wynne. It was edited by Liz O'Ballin with help from Patricia Willins. Contains original music by Marianne Lozano, Dan Powell, Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Leah Shaw Damaron and Alicia Ba? Itup and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Michael Rothfeld. That's it for the Daily I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.

[Nicole Hong]

This podcast is supported by 20th Century Studios. The Amateur Critics rave the Amateur stands right up there with Bourne as one of the most exciting spy thrillers in many years. It's a tense, unpredictable ride that constantly finds new and inventive ways to up the stakes. Starring Academy Award winner Rami Malek and Academy Award nominee Laurence Fishburne. The Amateur, rated PG13. Only in theaters and IMAX April 11th. Get tickets now.