Sunday Special: The Books We Read in School

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily – Sunday Special: The Books We Read in School
Aired: September 7, 2025
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guests: Sadie Stein, Louis Sachar (author of Holes and Wayside School series)

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Overview

In this episode of The Daily’s Sunday Special, host Gilbert Cruz, book review editor at The New York Times, is joined by NYT Book Review colleague Sadie Stein and beloved children’s author Louis Sachar. As school resumes across the country, the trio delves into the books children are assigned in school, personal reading journeys, and what makes a book resonate with young readers. They discuss the enduring canon of classic school texts, the emotional charge certain books still hold, and offer recommendations geared toward sparking a love of reading. The episode closes with a playful game that tests how well the guests remember their school reading lists, as described by humorous and critical Amazon reviews.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Histories with Reading

• Early Experiences:
  • Louis Sachar shares he read “a lot as a child” but the pivotal moment was his fourth-grade teacher reading Charlotte’s Web aloud:

    “The bad part was I cried in class at the end. … I remember nothing else about fourth grade except our teacher reading that book.” (03:16)

  • Sadie Stein recalls becoming a near-obsessive reader ages 8–11 and highlights the Betsy-Tacy books as transformative.
  • Gilbert Cruz describes how movies spurred his reading, seeking out the novels that inspired them, immersing himself in authors like Stephen King and Michael Crichton.

2. What Hooks Young Readers?

• Sachar credits not talking down to kids:

  “I think it has to hook me first. … I don’t talk down to the kids, and I respect the reader’s intelligence and humanity. Even if it’s a nine-year-old…” (08:45)

• Stein and Cruz reflect on how charismatic teachers, engaging aloud readings, and connecting with a story’s humor, menace, or emotional depth make a difference.

3. The School Classics List: What Hasn’t Changed

• A 2025 study shows six of the ten most-assigned books in schools remain the same as in 1989:

  • Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, Hamlet (Shakespeare)
  • The Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald)
  • The Crucible (Miller)
  • Of Mice and Men (Steinbeck)
  • To Kill a Mockingbird (Lee)
  • Night (Wiesel)
  • Fahrenheit 451 (Bradbury)
  • Frankenstein (Shelley)

  Cruz: “Three of them being Shakespeare plays...that are most commonly taught as the backbone of an English literature education…” (11:42)

• Shakespeare’s Challenges:

  • Sachar admits:

    “I found Shakespeare very difficult to read. … The best way I found was to get records and listen as I read.” (12:09)

  • Stein counters with a positive, performative classroom experience:

    “We acted them out…people got very into it…at the end we would get to watch the movie adaptation.” (12:36)

  • All agree: reading or watching Shakespeare performed helps overcome the language barrier.

4. Connecting or Disconnecting with Assigned Books

• Steinbeck’s Emotional Impact:
  • Stein: “I found [Of Mice and Men] almost traumatic…I have not really read Steinbeck since…” (15:47)
  • Sachar values the author-reader connection:

    “You’re getting inside this author’s mind…if you’re just focusing on the plot...that bothers me about Shakespeare…you lose that [connection].” (14:37)

• Cliff’s Notes v. Real Engagement:
  • Stein: “By today’s standards [Cliffs Notes] actually took quite a bit of time and effort…”
• Lovability and Difficulty:
  • Standout loves: Catcher in the Rye, The Great Gatsby.
  • Struggles: The Sound and the Fury (Faulkner), As I Lay Dying, some Hemingway.

5. The Impact of Being Forced to Read Certain Books

• Both value encountering challenging works in school, even those they didn’t love:
  Stein: “I’m so glad to have...read certain books in school...I just wouldn’t have had the discipline to take up Faulkner or Joyce as an adult.” (29:45)

6. Audiobooks & Modernizing Access

• Stein: “More audiobooks should be worked into the school curriculum for people who find that easier. For certain books, it might be the way to go.” (26:19)
• Sachar: “Whether I listen to it or read it, it’s the same. ... But I can never listen to the audio readings of my books.” (27:57)

7. Encouraging Reading for Pleasure Amid Declining Rates

• Only 16% of Americans now read for pleasure annually (books, magazines, etc.).
• Both guests see value in “gateway” books and the importance of reading aloud or modeling a reading habit at home.
• No stigma for “commercial” or “series” books—engagement is what matters.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On reading aloud's impact:

  “I remember nothing else about fourth grade except our teacher reading that book.” – Louis Sachar, on Charlotte’s Web (03:52)

• On series and addiction to reading:

  “I think kids love a series...It creates a sense of community and anticipation. Kids who think they don’t like to read, I think series are sometimes a good device.” – Sadie Stein (31:42)

• On the enduring value (and trauma) of classics:

  “I found [Of Mice and Men] almost traumatic…that one in particular was easy to read, and everyone in the class kind of got involved with.” – Sadie Stein (15:47)

• On audiobooks:

  “More audiobooks should be worked into the school curriculum for people who find that easier.” – Sadie Stein (26:19)

• On the beauty of Gatsby:

  “I had read so many books up to that point, but I don’t know that I’d read a book that was just beautiful.” – Gilbert Cruz (22:20)

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Recommendations for Young Readers (36:14–41:53)

• Louis Sachar:
  • Lois Lowry – The Giver
  • Katherine Paterson – Bridge to Terabithia, The Great Gilly Hopkins
• Sadie Stein:
  • Alvin Schwartz – Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark
  • Where the Red Fern Grows, The Witch of Blackbird Pond, Sounder, Number the Stars, From the Mixed-up Files…, Jennifer, Hecate, Macbeth, William McKinley, and Me, Elizabeth.
• Gilbert Cruz:
  • Norton Juster – The Phantom Tollbooth
  • Katherine Arden – Small Spaces series (for older/more adventurous kids)
  • Beverly Cleary – Ramona books (esp. Ramona the Pest) for those starting school
  • Harry Allard – Miss Nelson is Missing

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The Game: Guess the Classic (43:19–49:33)

A round of “Name that Book” using snarky Amazon reviews of classics:

• Examples included The Great Gatsby, Huckleberry Finn, The Scarlet Letter, Of Mice and Men, Great Expectations, and Catcher in the Rye.
• The guests humorously wrestled with vague or biting one-star reviews to identify the books.
• Sadie Stein ultimately won, earning the “Gilby” trophy.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:06: Introduction, overview of episode theme.
• 03:08–06:11: Guests share formative childhood reading experiences.
• 11:42–17:16: Discussion of school reading lists and enduring classics.
• 19:11–23:22: Books they loved in school; emotional resonance of texts.
• 23:22–26:19: Books that were struggles; Faulkner and the challenge of “difficult” literature.
• 26:19–29:45: The role and importance of audiobooks.
• 32:35–34:37: Series and “gateway” books.
• 34:12–36:07: Decline of pleasure reading and strategies to reclaim it.
• 36:14–41:53: Recommendations for young readers and “back to school” favorites.
• 43:19–49:33: Amazon review guessing game with classic books.

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Tone & Style

Warm, nerdy, and humorous, with all three panelists showing a deep and personal affection for books, both old and new. The conversation is knowledgeable but accessible, mixing practical advice for parents/educators with nostalgia and wit. The rapport among guests makes for an engaging episode that celebrates the enduring, sometimes complicated relationship readers have with the books they first encounter in school.

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For anyone who’s ever loved, loathed, or wondered about the canon of school reading, this episode is a lively, insightful, and highly relatable literary roundtable.

Transcript

[Kate Biberdorf]

Not every science class is textbook, especially not for Kate Bieberdorf, known as Kate the Chemist. She earned her degree at the University of Michigan and now turns science into a spectacle for kids everywhere. She fills stadiums with nitrogen, launches ping pong balls on talk shows, and helps more kids see a place for themselves in STEM for making science more visible and more for everyone. Look to Michigan, see more solutions at umich. Edu.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Look.

[Sadie Stein]

Hi everyone, it's Rachel. I'm here with just a friendly reminder that today and every Sunday through the end of the year, my colleague Gilbert Cruz is going to be here. He's talking arts and culture with a rotating cast of critics, editors, reporters and writers. This week with kids back in the classroom, Gilbert and his guests talk classic books, the ones that you may have loved reading in school or maybe the ones you didn't really love reading in school, but kind of love now. You'll also hear about books that could help kids fall in love with reading. Hope you'll take a listen.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome everyone, to the Sunday special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, the book review editor here at the Times. All across America, kids are back in school. Here in New York City, school has just started, but some kids, this is always surprising to me, have been back for weeks. Regardless of where you're located, children are eventually going to be assigned some books to read. And those kids will look at that list and maybe they'll think, what the heck are these? And maybe their parents will look at that list and they will think, what the heck are these? Are we still reading Of Mice and Men? And so today we're talking about books, especially the books we read in school and the books we continue to read in school. Here with me to talk about all this is my colleague from the Book review, Sadie Stein. Whenever I think I am a well read person, all I have to do is look at Sadie, who sits right next to me in the office. She's read an astonishing number of books and I'm immediately put in my place. Sadie, welcome.

[Sadie Stein]

Thank you. No pressure. I mean, you're going to find a lot of glaring holes, I think, in my early reading, but we'll see.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And joining us from California, this is very exciting. The author of several beloved books for young people, including the famous Wayside School books, which I think might capture better than almost any other series just how weird school can be sometimes. He's also the author of the classic young adult novel Holes, and he has just released his first book for adults, the Magician of Tiger Castle. Lewis Sacker, welcome.

[Louis Sachar]

Thank you. It's Great to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Given that we are an author and two editors, I think it's fair to say that we're all book lovers now, as adults, as grownups. But, you know, Sadie and Lewis, did you always love books from the beginning, from the time that you were a young child?

[Louis Sachar]

I read a lot as a child. You know, the Scholastic Book Fairs would come through and I'd always order two or three books. I don't know that I loved reading. The one book that stands out was actually our teacher read to us out loud when I was in fourth grade, which surprised me. I didn't know teachers still read books aloud in fourth grade. But she read Charlotte's Web and I just loved it. The bad part was I cried in class at the end. But it was funny, it was emotional. I was completely caught up in the story, wanted to find out what happened next. That's really what I think started my love of reading. I think it's so important for people to read to kids because I remember nothing else about fourth grade except our teacher reading that book.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I think the same thing is true of me in fourth grade. I think I remember a teacher reading maybe island of the Lost. Island of the Lost Blue Dolphins, island of the Blue Dolphins or the Secret Garden. I just remember sitting and having a teacher read to me, which can be like a magical experience when your teacher's just holding an entire class wrapped with a story.

[Sadie Stein]

Well, it's funny that you both brought up fourth grade because when I was thinking about this subject, I realized that was the year that was most magical, both reading to myself and having the teacher read. And my teacher, Mary Neal, was a really gifted reader. And I remember she read from the Mixed up files of Mrs. Bazilie Frankweiler. And she read aloud to us every day. And we would knit and do the various handicrafts we did in elementary school. And it was just incredible, I should say. I was not an early reader. And I think what really started me loving it was the first Betsy Tacey book. Then I was just kind of off to the races. And I remember kind of the ages of 8 to 11 as just incessant, indiscriminate, immersive reading all the time, constantly.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sorry, before we go any further, what are the Betsy Tacey books?

[Sadie Stein]

The Betsy Tacy books were written by Mod Hart Lovelace. I think she wrote them in the 1940s. She started by telling her young daughter, Marian Lovelace, about her childhood growing up in Mankato, Minnesota, and turn them into this series of children's books, which Start when she's five, her fifth birthday, and end when she is married. And the level of the writing ages as she ages. And they're magical.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You see, when I said at the beginning about how well read Sadie Stein is, this is exactly what I was talking about.

[Sadie Stein]

Oh, I think you'll find if you bring this up, people who love these books are passionate about them.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Lewis, had you ever heard of these books?

[Louis Sachar]

I never have, which is amazing.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Me neither. I became sort of an obsessive reader, I feel like, right around 10 or 11. And it unfortunately was because of movies. I would watch a movie, and then I would watch read the book on which it was based. So Stephen King, who I continue to maintain an obsession with, Tom Clancy, John Grisham, Michael Crichton, Anne Rice, all these people. I would see Jurassic park or Interview with a Vampire or the Firm, and I would read the book. And I became obsessed with these popular fiction authors. And then that led into just wanting to read all the time. I always had a book in my hands. Lewis, I feel like I read somewhere that you didn't become a big reader until high school.

[Louis Sachar]

Right. You know, I was in high school in the early 1970s, and, you know, people. When people, you know, talk about those times, they focus on the counterculture and the drugs and the music. But people forget were some of the leaders of that, or at least among me and my friends, some of the people we most admired were people like Kurt Vonnegut and ken Kesey and J.D. salinger. And that's when I really started loving books. I remember a friend of mine and I. I don't remember how we started on this, but we each had a copy of Nine Stories by J.D. salinger. This wasn't through any class. We'd each just read a story a night and then talk about it the next day because there was so much to try to understand in those stories that just. I mean, like, one story ended about with a person having kept a chicken sandwich in his pocket for two weeks or something. And it's like, what did that have to do with the story? And, you know, things like that. And I just loved it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm curious, Louis, as someone who writes for young people or has written for young people, have you been able to develop over these many decades a theory about what hooks a kid? Like, what makes a book or a story particularly appealing for a young person?

[Louis Sachar]

I think it has to hook me first. And so I write what I like, and I don't talk down to the kids, and I respect the reader's intelligence and humanity. Even if it's a nine year old, they like the same things I like and don't feel like they're being preached to.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah. You know, I have a young kid just starting kindergarten this week, in fact, and so I'm very deep in kids literature right now. And so many of these books just hold up so well. I mean, you mentioned E.B. white, which has been a huge hit in our house. And those weren't books I was that involved with as a kid. Cause I never. I had this idea that I didn't like animal stories and I didn't like horse books. Like, if a kid met a horse, I was out. But reading them now, he's a genius. I mean, those books are great. And like, I've been rereading Natalie Babbitt. Amazing. I mean, these are fantastic writers. I think you have to be so skilled to appeal to children and to give them credit for humor and dignity and deep feelings and a capacity for menace, like Raald Dahl does.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I mean, it is the thing that people tell you maybe before you become a parent, when you are perhaps a little bit unclear about how to interact with a child or talk to a child. It's just like, just talk to them. They're a person. Just because they're younger doesn't mean you have to speak down to them or use a certain type of language. It's just talk to them and they'll talk back. I feel like, Louis, what you're saying is just write for them, try to inhabit their perspective and they will respond to it, which I think they have with your books.

[Louis Sachar]

Yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So that's. I think that's us as young readers. I want to talk a little bit about being a reader in school because recently a study came out that in addition to many other things, compare the books that are taught now in 2025 to middle and high school students with the books that were taught to middle and high school students in 1989, which was the last time sort of a study of this type was undertaken. And six of the 10 books were exactly the same. I'd love to quickly run through that list and get your thoughts on it. So let me go through all 10 here. Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare. The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald. The Crucible by Arthur Miller. Macbeth by William Shakespeare. Sadie's putting up very. She's like, yes, Shakespeare. Thumbs up. Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck. To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee. Night by Elie Wiesel. Hamlet by Shakespeare. Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury and Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. So what do we think about these 10 books, three of them being Shakespeare plays, being the books that are most commonly taught to middle and high schoolers as like, the backbone of an English literature education are these books that you remember reading, Some of them in middle and high school.

[Louis Sachar]

I found Shakespeare very difficult to read. The best way I found to read Shakespeare was actually. I mean, this was before computers and everything we've got now. I'd go into the library where you could get records and sit in one of these rooms and play a Shakespeare recording of a play as I read it. And then it made some sense to me, but otherwise I couldn't get through them.

[Sadie Stein]

See, I loved the Shakespeare section every year. And I think it really depends on having a very good teacher. And I had a couple, and I remember those. Not all of them, but a couple of those experiences, especially Romeo and Juliet, being a way that, you know, first of all, we acted them out. People got very into it. And then at the end of each, we would get to watch the movie adaptation, whether that be the Zeffirelli or the Roman Polanski, Macbeth or.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So they showed you the most inappropriate versions of these stories.

[Sadie Stein]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that maybe this is part of why I have such positive memories. But I got to play like the nurse when we read Romeo and Juliet. Got very into it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I mean, Sadie, I feel like you're saying a version of what Lewis is saying, which is like, you also have to sort of see this performed, whether it's. Or hear it perform. Whether it's Lyn listening to a record or seeing Leonardo DiCaprio play Romeo. Shakespeare is hard, particularly with this heightened language, which is both beautiful and difficult. I feel like for many kids of all ages, it is something that is in many ways the backbone of a Western civilization, literature, education. And it is also extremely difficult to get into. So I feel like I fall in between the two of you, which is where I sort of grew to appreciate it. But I also, on first sort of experience, it put me off. It is hard to get into, but I can understand why many kids be like, this is not for me. ChatGPT. Please summarize the plots of Julius Caesar. I'm curious about some of the other books on this list and whether or not either of you recall reading them in class. You know, John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, for example, you have. I remember reading Grapes of Wrath, but I feel like Of Mice and Men is one that is so commonly read that when you talk about George and Lenny, people get the reference.

[Louis Sachar]

I remember reading Of Mice and Men, and I liked it. Steinbeck is still one of my favorite writers. Grapes of Wrath, east of Eden. Yeah. I just think one of the things I love about writing the reading as well, I mean, is the connection I feel with the author, that you're getting inside this author's mind. You're appreciating his wit and his outlook on life. And I feel that's lost a little bit if you're just focusing on the plot. And I think that's what also bothers me about Shakespeare, for example, is it's so hard to relate to him as a person because the language is so foreign to us that you lose that. And now it's just about the plot.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sadie, did you feel that way about some of these books here? I mean, there is. You know, we had Cliff's Notes, then we didn't have Wikipedia. Right. But you feel like there was a way to cheat class by saying, oh, I know what that book is about. But really, your teachers try to get you to engage with the themes and the language.

[Sadie Stein]

Of course, the thing about Cliff's Notes is they, by today's standards, actually took quite a bit of time and effort. Like, you still had to read the summaries, because I remember I did it once, actually, in college, I'm not proud to say, with the Leather Stocking Tales, which I just. I don't know. For whatever reason, I didn't want to do it or hadn't made the time. So I tried to read the Cliffs Notes, and it really wasn't that much of a time saver, but they made them look so enticingly forbidden with those yellow and black covers, I guess, so teachers could see them. I do remember reading Of Mice and Men, and it made. I found it almost traumatic. I remember that. I think we were only freshmen, but I have not really read Steinbeck since we read that and the Pearl. And I found them so incredibly upsetting that I have never read them again. And I think anytime you feel a strong emotion is not a bad thing. And that one in particular was easy to read. And I remember it was one of the books that everyone in the class kind of got involved with, which wasn't by any means, always the case. And I'm thinking here of A Farewell to Arms, which was a particular dud in my freshman English class.

[Gilbert Cruz]

On that note, let's take a quick break, and when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more Specifically about the books we loved and maybe the ones we didn't love so much when we were in school.

[Kate Biberdorf]

Not every science class is textbook. Sometimes it's a teacher running around setting things on fire. A moment that makes a kid say, let me try. That's what happened to Kate Bieberdorf. When a high school chemistry teacher lit the fuse. She brought that spark to the University of Michigan, where she earned her Bachelor of Science in chemistry and discovered new ways to share what she loved. Today, she's better known as Kate the Chemist, a science entertainer, author, and professor bringing chemistry to life for audiences everywhere, from classrooms to talk shows. She makes science impossible to ignore or forget, helping countless kids see a place for themselves in stem, for making science more visible and more for everyone. Look to Michigan, see more [e-mail].

[Sadie Stein]

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[Gilbert Cruz]

So, Sadie, was there a book that you read in school that you just remember really, really loving?

[Sadie Stein]

Oh, seventh grade. We read Catcher in the Rye and I absolutely loved it. I mean, you mentioned Nine Stories, and we read that later on, and that was another gut punch. The Laughing man in particular. And I mean banana fish, Esme, every single one of those.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, tell me about Catcher in the Rye. Why? Because I feel like that is sort of a prototypical high school text. I don't know. I remember reading it when I was in high school and it was one that resonated. And then now if you try to talk about it as an adult, I feel like there are many people that look down upon it. But why did it sort of resonate with you at the time?

[Sadie Stein]

I think. I think it's. I don't love all of Salinger's work is the truth, but Catherine, the rye I think really holds up. And I think it does the book a real disservice to treat it as something kind of immature or zhijun, because, you know, he was an adult man, a War veteran writing this book. And he managed to capture something so real and so essential about being an alienated teenager. And when we read it in class, we also did kind of a nifty thing where we were each given maps of New York City and we would trace his path around, which made it really immersive and fun.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Lewis, did you read Catcher in the Rye in school again?

[Louis Sachar]

I don't know that it was assigned in a classroom. It might have been too controversial. But, yeah, it's one of my favorite books. And that, along with Nine Stories and all of Salinger's work, actually is why I became a writer. Him and Kurt Vonnegut, you know how unpretentious he was and how when you read J.D. salinger, you have a sense of who he is and the way he saw the world. And it was very relatable and funny and poignant, and that's what I tried to emulate with my books.

[Sadie Stein]

Gilbert, what were the books that you loved in high school?

[Gilbert Cruz]

There was a lot that I didn't love, but there was one book in particular that I loved. It is the most basic book, and I apologize for admitting it. The book was the Great Gatsby by Fitzgerald, which I have read possibly more than any other book. It helps that it's pretty short. I first read it in high school, and I remember the edition, the Scribner sort of trade paperback edition with those.

[Sadie Stein]

The blue and white one.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The blue and white one. But then it had the eyes on the COVID of the original edition, and I just. I fell in love with it.

[Sadie Stein]

Why would you ever be embarrassed about loving the Great Gatsby, which is so good, if you actually reread it? I would say anyone who is critical of that, have they reread it in the last 10 years? And the movies don't count because it is unadaptable, in my opinion. I think it's because the language is too beautiful. I don't know. But, yeah, that one touched me a lot.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I had read so many books up to that point, but I don't know that I'd have read a book that was just beautiful. It was just beautifully written. I definitely read books with better plots, but the lyricism of Fitzgerald, which some people would say is an over sentimentality, I would not. I was just like, oh, this is how you can write as well. You can write a book that has memorable characters, a memorable setting, and also has passages that make you swoon. As a young person, that's how I felt about that book. And I continue to think that book holds up. It's gorgeous. That's one of the things I think that being forced to. Maybe force is not the right word. That's so negative. Being made to read books in school can do. Sometimes you fall in love with a book, even if there are a ton of other things that don't resonate with you or that you sort of hold at an arm's distance. And I would love to talk about some of those books as well. Lewis, is there a book that sticks out in your mind as one that you really struggled with in school?

[Louis Sachar]

One of the books I remembered not liking was the Sound and the Fury by William.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm pointing at my screen right now. Please talk about Faulkner.

[Louis Sachar]

So now that I'm an adult and well read, I thought, well, maybe I'll try. Prior to the podcast, I'm going to try to read the Sound and the Fury again. And, boy, that is very difficult reading. It's the first. I don't know, 60 pages are written by someone who is mentally challenged, and you just have this vague sense of who all the characters are, but you're not sure. And I think there's two people named Quentin, one female, one male, and the characters named Somewhere in the Middle has changed from Maurice to Benjamin. It's a lot to read without knowing what's going on. So I've just finished that part. I could never. That's as far as I got. But I can't understand why that would be. If you're trying to get people to turn them on to reading and to authors, I don't understand why they'd ever assign that book.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sadie, were you at all into Faulkner in school?

[Sadie Stein]

I actually was kind of put off by my high school experiences with Faulkner. I mean, I persevered in college, and the only way I got through it was by taking college seminars where it was really broken down for us and done in very digestible chunks. I couldn't have done it alone.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I have a similar Faulkner experience, being made to read it in a high school English class as I laid dying as well. And just I was like, I have no idea what's happening. And it's possible that I never want to read this gentleman again. I was made to read it before I was ready to understand it or to engage with it. Sort of the opposite of the Great Gatsby, like I or others were primed at that age, or the Catcher in the Rye to receive and understand this book. Faulkner maybe is not the guy for.

[Louis Sachar]

High school, but there are so many engaging stories and so Many, you know, so many authors that. That I think if it was taught in high school that students would relate to. And like we read the Idiot in high school by Dostoevsky, which is this, you know, difficult Russian literature. But I just remember Loving was engaging and gripping. And I've, you know, since gone on and read lots of books by Dostoevsky, just like I've read lots of books by Steinbeck after reading probably the Mice and Men or maybe Tortilla Flats. But like you said with Faulkner, it just turned off any interest I had in reading.

[Sadie Stein]

Oh, I thought of kind of an opposite situation. I remember reading. We read quite a bit of. It was beloved that we first read in high school, Toni Morrison. And that was such a good high school book. I think we were juniors and we weren't too young. It was adult themes, but it was electrifying to read. But my brother always found it a lot easier to listen to books than to read them, especially long ones. And so we also had the audiobook of, I think, Song of Solomon in his case. And that was fantastic. I think one thing I'm coming around to in this conversation is that more audiobooks should be worked into the school curriculum for people who find that easier. And I think for certain books, it might be the way to go. I thought about my brother a lot in this context because he wasn't someone who really liked to read. I only remember him really reading the Muggsy Bogues memoir In the Land of Giants from his Charlotte Hornet Sira. He also liked Matt Christopher baseball books, which I'd read him a lot.

[Louis Sachar]

I read those.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah. I think getting kids who don't think they like to read to read things that are adjacent to their interests, I think it's great. I think whatever shows you that there's additional lore and secret knowledge and a different kind of experience of something you love is terrific. But, yeah, audiobooks, definitely.

[Louis Sachar]

Yeah. I mean, to me, whether I listen to it or read it, it's the same. It engages in the same way to me. Although it's funny because I can never listen to the audio readings of my books because every sentence is accentuated just a little differently than the way I had in mind when I wrote it. And so it's. It's constantly jarring me when I'm listening to my audiobooks.

[Sadie Stein]

Have you ever gotten through a full audiobook of one of your own works?

[Louis Sachar]

No, I've never even got. I mean, there are some that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sorry narrators of old Lewis Secker books.

[Louis Sachar]

And people tell me they love the audio version. So it's just my own idiosyncrasy.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Brief digression here, just to underscore, Sadie, what you said, which is the importance of audiobooks, which I feel like is something that for many readers is a big part of their lives and still continues to have a bit of a stigma to it. If you're listening to a book, you're not really reading it. I think you agree anything that engages the literary mind, whether you're reading with your eyes or listening with your ears, is valid. And so audiobooks are great. I listen to them all the time. I do think to your bigger point, the thing that you're talking about is this push pull that every lifelong reader experiences, which is between what they are told to read, what they are made to read, what they are forced to read, whether it's in school or by your parents, and what you actually end up loving and how sometimes those things work together and sometimes those two things can be in opposition. Right. The scariest thing is the idea that if you are made to read too many books that you don't like, it will turn you off from reading altogether.

[Sadie Stein]

This is the kind of thing that as a kid, you're never going to feel or believe and you'd hate hearing. But I'm so glad to have, I won't say crossed off my list to have read certain books in school, been forced to read them, which I then didn't feel were glaring omissions in my reading list later. I just wouldn't have had the discipline to take up Faulkner or Joyce or as an adult, I think there is a lot to be said for being made to do things in school, like, I'm not doing math on my own. I'm glad I was forced to learn it.

[Louis Sachar]

Yeah, I think reading has enriched my life tremendously. And so I think it's important to try to pass that along. And that's partly of what I do with my writing, is just try to, especially when I write for young people, is to try to turn them on to reading and show them that reading can be fun and engaging and thought provoking and all that. You can only do so much, but I think you want to try to reach as many people as you can and say, yeah, reading is worth doing.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Lewis, you're just back from a tour for your new book, the Magician of Tiger Castle, and I have to imagine that you've had a lot of fans, a lot of adult fans talking to you about reading your books when they were young.

[Louis Sachar]

Yeah, I've. I'VE just come back from a book tour with the new book, and one of the things that's been really heartwarming about it was I've heard from, from many adults who told me that mine were the books that got them to start reading. And. And now they're reading those same books to their kids or to their students. And it. It's been just to hear them talk about what the books meant to them is humbling.

[Sadie Stein]

One thing I remember really loving about Wayside in particular was that it was a series. And I think kids love a series, and I think it's immersive and propulsive in a way that standalone books aren't always. I think it creates a sense of community. I think it creates a sense of anticipation. Kids who think they don't like to read, I think series are sometimes a good device. My own little boy happens to be a reader, but he got really into these books, you know, Dogman. And I see the same thing is happening every time we're in a bookstore. He's kind of going into a corner and like mainlining as much Dogman as he can get in. And now they're considered a treat to him. And so there's something to be said for that too.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I agree. I think series books are sort of an entry point. You know, in many ways, like my kid never read the Dogman books. He never read the Diary of a Wimpy Kid books, which are also incredibly popular. But he was into the mysterious Benedict Society books. He is into the Last Kids on Earth books, which are sort of these sort of post apocalyptic zombie young reader books that also have images in them, although they're not graphic novels. Desmond Cole, Ghost Patrol is a series that he was also super into. So I think that idea, as you say, Sadie, of anticipation is something that helps kids. They want something to look forward to. They want to look forward to the next Marvel movie. They also want to look forward to the next Percy Jackson book. I'm very curious before we get into some recommendations not to go super dark, but there was just another report released a few weeks ago that talked about how pleasure reading in America has dropped to just a frightening low over the past many decades. It was something like only 16% of Americans now read for pleasure over the course of any given year. That's a combination of, you know, books, magazines, et cetera. I was both surprised and not surprised. I was both depressed and also I took it as a given that that's maybe where we were in this country at this point. I wonder if either of you had similar or different reactions.

[Louis Sachar]

Yeah, again, that goes to what I've been saying that, you know, in school, you just give them books that they can see the. And it's different for different people. Obviously, books that you relate to and realize, oh, this is really special, to connect with this writer and be a part of this world. I think that's important that we continue to do that.

[Sadie Stein]

I do feel like when you find that gateway, there's sort of no going back. I think if kids are reading, that's important because it shows them that it's accessible and fun. I think the kind of addictive Labubu quality of certain series which maybe are, like, weirdly short and seem very commercialized and seem to be kind of cranked out by factories rather than thoughtful writers. I don't believe in guilty pleasures. And I think the more we can remove certain things that, as you say, have stigmas around them, the better. I think reading period is good. I know it's not always possible, but I think if they can see you reading physical books, I think if that is normalized around them, I think that's important.

[Louis Sachar]

And also being read to. Being read to, I think, is the most important thing.

[Sadie Stein]

And, you know, it's good for parents and caretakers, too, quite frankly. We read aloud every night. I am reading books about animals for the first time in my life. It's not what I would choose, but you know what? I'm learning a lot. I know so much more about dinosaurs than I ever did. I've come to finally appreciate Charlotte's Web, Trumpet of the Swan. I mean, so we all can learn from this process.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I love the idea, Sadie, that it's going to be your child that finally gets you into horse books.

[Sadie Stein]

Don't tempt fate.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, well, let's move away from the dark towards the light. I'd love to ask each of you for one or two book recommendations. I'm looking for books that you think would be worth the young reader's time. Something that they'd really connect to.

[Louis Sachar]

Lewis, I should preface this by saying my own daughter is 38. I used to go to do a lot of school visits as a visiting authority, but I haven't done that for, like, 20 years. So the authors I know are the ones who wrote between 20 and 30 or 40 years ago. And the ones I really liked were Lois Lowry, who did the Giver, and Katherine Patterson, Bridge to Terabithia.

[Sadie Stein]

Bridge, Terabithia.

[Louis Sachar]

And also the great Gilly Hopkins. Both those books I found very moving.

[Sadie Stein]

Great Gilly Hopkins. I'm so glad you mentioned it. I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough because. But that was a formative book for me too. And for those who don't know, it's about a girl who's in the foster care system and isn't necessarily an immediately likable heroine, but it deals with adult themes and themes of alienation and certain social things which I haven't read it lately, but you can tell me if it's dated. But I remember loving is the wrong word because it was in some ways a hard read, but finding it incredibly impactful at about 10.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, so Sadie, what are your recommendations?

[Sadie Stein]

I mean, where do we get. You've got where the Red Fern Grows Bread, Shatterabithia, Witch of Blackbird Pond, Sounder Number the Stars Mix up files of Mrs. Basilique, Frankweiler, Jennifer Hecate Macbeth, William McKinley and me, Elizabeth. But if I had to give it to one, it has got to be Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark by Alvin Schwartz, which is a book I know Gilbert also enjoyed as a child. I think it is short format, it's spooky, it's fun. If you are drawn at all to the supernatural and we're entering that time of year, nothing better. And you will have made In Ghosts a friend for life.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I obviously could not love this recommendation. More. Sadie this book scared the crap out of me when I was a kid, particularly the illustrations. I don't even know if they use the illustrations anymore. That's how scary they were. I love them. I want to throw in the mix a book that I read with my son a couple of years ago and which we both loved. It's another classic. This is the Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster. And the reason I bring this up is because I had never read it before. It was not read to me when I was a child and it was not one that I had read on my own. And it is so clever and the wordplay is incredibly amusing. The illustrations by Jules Feifer are, I think, iconic in the right use of that word. Not in the way that everyone seems to use it these days, which is incorrectly. I can't wait to read it again and I would actually like to read it. My son, who's a little bit older again because it was such a delightful one. So the Phantom Toll Booth.

[Louis Sachar]

I love the Phantom Toll Booth as well.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Did you read it when you were.

[Louis Sachar]

I read it in high school and he has another book that's very fun, just called the.in the line and it's just this picture book about a. It's about a line being in love with a dot and the dot ends up falling for a squiggle. And it's all about, you know, how the line can do so much more than a squiggle. And it starts doing all these elaborate geometric shapes where all the squiggle could do is squiggle.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I've never heard of that one. And I'm gonna rush home and pick that one up.

[Sadie Stein]

Me too.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I would love to mention one more book just to sort of echo your early recommendations of Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. This is for kids that are slightly older. It is a series written by Katherine Arden that begins with a book called Small Spaces. It stars an 11 year old girl. Her name is Ollie. She develops a group of friends and they have to deal with creepy stuff over four books. Some very creepy stuff. In the first one, there's a character named the quote, Smiling man, which I feel like that's all I have to say. And you'll know whether or not your child is prepared to read a book like that. Mine, who is again now 11, read these when he was nine or so, but he really sort of. He's read them several times and they're quite well written.

[Sadie Stein]

I mean, I have all this to look forward to. I was thinking about good back to school books too. And we're starting kindergarten, so we just read Ramona the Pest to him and he loved it. And that book is so good. If you haven't read that one specifically in a long time. The way she gets in a small child's head and the pain Ramona feels at being misunderstood is so well done so sensitively and it's so incredibly funny.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That's one of the Ramona books by Beverly Cleary.

[Sadie Stein]

By Beverly Cleary, yeah. And another good back to school pick is Ms. Nelson is missing with the iconic James Marshall illustrations. It's by Harry Allard and just makes school seem kind of fun and mysterious and prone to magical happenings, even for very young children. So recommended.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I knew you were gonna sneak in one more Good one. Sad. Okay, let's take another quick break and when we get back, we're gonna play a little game involving some classic books and some people who really don't like those classic books. We'll be right back.

[Kate Biberdorf]

Not every science class is textbook, especially not for Kate Biberdorf, known as Kate the Chemist. She earned her degree at the University of Michigan and now turns science into a spectacle for kids everywhere. She fills stadiums with nitrogen, launches ping pong balls on talk shows and helps more kids see a place for themselves in STEM for making science more visible and more for everyone. Look to Michigan. See more solutions at umich. Edu.

[Sadie Stein]

Look hi, my name is Sondra E. Garcia and I'm a reporter at the New York Times. I write for the Stiles desk, where we try to understand our complicated world by keeping up with culture. We want to take you to the forefront of cultural shifts and let you know why things are trending. Our subscribers make this kind of coverage possible so the New York Times can continue to highlight the stories that go beyond breaking news. Help us keep a pulse on culture by [e-mail] subscribe.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm Gilbert Cruz. This is the Sunday Special and I'm here with Sadie Stein and author Louis Secker. And we are talking back to school. We're talking what books we loved in middle school and high school. And as kids we had some book recommendations. And now we have a game for our guests here in front of me. I've got some reviews that have been submitted by real, actual readers on Amazon of some classic books that you may have read in high school. I'm going to start with Lewis. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read a review, you're going to try to guess the book, and if you get it right, you get a point. If you get it wrong, I will go to Sadie with another review of that same book and she'll have a chance to guess. We'll go back and forth like that, and the most points wins a prize. These are all books that both of you know. These are books you most likely read in high school. All right, let's play. Lewis, I'm going to start with you. I'm going to read a review, and then you guess what the book is. This book has been rated by generations of American high school students as the great American novel. I believe this is because the book is mercifully short, lending itself to a quick read with time left over for plenty of football practice. Lewis, what might this book be?

[Louis Sachar]

Of Mice and Men.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's not Of Mice and Men. Sadie, I'm going to read you another review of this same book. This is a classic about the 20s, and it looks like it was a sad time.

[Sadie Stein]

I hadn't thought of it as short, but you mentioned earlier that Great Gatsby is not too long, so I am going to go with that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is. It is. I mistakenly seated the ground. I'm sorry, Lewis, I'm sorry, Sadie, we're gonna go to you for the next book. This is the review. The characters were just as lovable and humorous as in the first book, but often it was like they were over the top caricatures of themselves.

[Sadie Stein]

Okay, series classic.

[Gilbert Cruz]

First thought, first thought, best thought.

[Sadie Stein]

Fine, pass.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We're gonna go to Lewis. It begins as a road trip with two runaways, which quickly devolves to aimless and seemingly endless wandering. Lewis, what might this book be?

[Louis Sachar]

Oh, boy. I can tell Sadie knows it. Huckleberry Finn.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Huckleberry Finn. Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. You're tied at what each. Lewis. Literally. The last chapter just describes what happened to all the characters, Animal House style. And nearly every one of them randomly died. Wow, what a deeply brilliant ending. He must have let his dog write.

[Louis Sachar]

The last chapter book where everyone dies at the end. It's not Hamlet.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is not Hamlet. Although almost everyone dies at the end of Hamlet. We're gonna go to Sadie with another review of the same book. Postmodern society does not really care about baby daddies. And the revelation which is made at the end and beginning of this novel is reproduced daily on morning television, a la mori. Which seems like an outdated reference, but. What book might that be, Sadie?

[Sadie Stein]

Revelation of Paternity and Everyone dies. Can I ask, would you have gotten it?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I would not. How's that gonna help you? No, I would not have gotten.

[Sadie Stein]

I'm trying to get in your head. Let's do the Farewell to Arms.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is not a Farewell to Arms, Sadie. Although that is a book I also had to read in high school. We are going back to Lewis for the third clue. It addresses Christian values in early colonial America and promotes the idea that, quote, sins should be judged by society as a whole. Which did not engage my attention.

[Louis Sachar]

I don't know. The Crucible.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Same time period? As far as I could tell. Very close. Neither of you got it. That's Scarlet Leather.

[Sadie Stein]

Scarlet leather.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Scarlet. Sorry that you missed out, Sadie. It is the Scarlet Letter. So you're still both tied at one. I'm going to go to the next one, Sadie.

[Sadie Stein]

Okay.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I don't understand why this is classic literature. It is true. It's the time period, but pretty depressing to read. Did not like the ending at all. Oh, I'm sorry. This is a hard one, Sadie.

[Sadie Stein]

Okay, what's depressing? Set in another time.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Honestly, that sounds like everything we had to read in high school.

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah, right. I don't know. Maybe. Of Mice and Men.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, my God. You got it. It's Of Mice and Men. What?

[Sadie Stein]

It's because.

[Gilbert Cruz]

A lucky guess.

[Sadie Stein]

It's because Lewis had seated it earlier as a good guess.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, Lewis, the only thing I can say is you watched the boy grow through the book and become a man.

[Louis Sachar]

No, I'm just trying to. I have no clue.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Let's go over to Sadie. This story was essentially a Victorian soap opera. There's all sorts of unknown parents, secret, conniving, mysterious benefactors, and worst of all, many unrealistic characters.

[Sadie Stein]

David Copperfield. Oh, oh, oh.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, my God. Good guess, good guess, good guess.

[Sadie Stein]

I know, I know it. I know it. I know it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

No, you have one guess. Darn it, you have one guess. Sadie, third clue. Lewis. Who cares about a freak that has a decomposing wedding cake in her house? Who cares about a maniacal convict who develops an unnaturally strong bond to a young boy with an obnoxious name? Well, this person's.

[Louis Sachar]

I'll go with what I was thinking from the first one. Great Expectations.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Great Expectations. Good job, Lewis. We're going to come to our final clue here. All right, Sadie, what book is this a review of? The character was a mess all around. He had a very unrealistic outlook on life and it was depressing. I kept waiting for something to happen and it didn't. I have no idea why serial killers are drawn to this book. It starts and ends nowhere.

[Sadie Stein]

Our favorite book, Catcher in the Rye.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Catcher in the Rye. Your favorite book, Lewis. Favorite book? My favorite book, Catcher in the Rye. That is a good one to end on, I think. Sadie, I'm happy to tell you that you have won this round. Sadie, you have won something. You have won something physical. And listeners to last week episode know that I'm going to award you something. It is something that we are going to call the Gilby. Okay, I is a trophy with my face on it. I did not design this. It's slightly embarrassing, but we're running with it.

[Sadie Stein]

I'm honored to have received this trophy. I will treasure it and it will occupy a place of honor on my bookshelf.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sadie Stein, fellow editor at the New York Times Book Review. Thank you for joining.

[Sadie Stein]

Thank you for having me. That game was nightmarish.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Louis Sachar, beloved author of many children's and young adult books. Thank you for joining us here on the Sunday special.

[Louis Sachar]

Thanks. It's been fun.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Before we go, in a couple of weeks, I'll be chatting with some of my colleagues about fashion, about what we choose to wear and why. And we want to hear from you, our listeners do you have burning questions about personal style? I do. For example, is it okay to wear shorts while getting engaged? I'm going to say no. The answer is no. Sorry, Travis Kelce, but you might have some other questions, like how baggy is too baggy in a pair of pants? Or here's an actual question from me, and I think one that many of you share how do I not wear the same thing every day? Maybe you're struggling with how do I buy clothes on a budget? You have questions. Hopefully we have answers. Email those questions, dilemmas, arguments, debates, etc. To Sunday specialytimes.com along with your name and where you're based, and our experts will answer a few of your questions on the show. This episode was produced by Alex Barron with help from Tina Antolini, Kate Lopresti and Luke Van der Plug. We had production assistance from Franny Kartoth and Dalia Haddad. It was edited by Wendy Dore. The Sunday special is engineered by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Diane Wong and Elisheva Itu. Special thanks to Paula Schumann. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

[Kate Biberdorf]

Not every science class is textbook. Especially not for Kate Bieberdorf, known as Kate the Chemist. She earned her degree at the University of Michigan and now turns science into a spectacle for kids everywhere. She fills stadiums with nitrogen, launches ping pong balls on talk shows, and helps more kids see a place for themselves in STEM for making science more visible and more for everyone. Look to Michigan. See more [e-mail].

[Gilbert Cruz]

Look.