Sunday Special: TV's Big Night

Summary

---

The Daily Sunday Special: TV's Big Night

Date: September 14, 2025
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guests: Jason Zinneman (comedy critic), Alexis Soloski (culture reporter)
Theme: A lively roundtable on the standout Emmy-nominated shows of the year—dramas, comedies, and oddities—plus a spirited game show segment.

---

Episode Overview

This Sunday Special of The Daily, hosted by Gilbert Cruz with guests Jason Zinneman and Alexis Soloski, is a celebration of television’s most prestigious night: the Emmy Awards. With couch-potato camaraderie, the trio 'channel surfs' through some of the year’s most talked-about—and often divisive—shows. The discussion is an invigorating blend of sharp criticism, cultural context, and personal taste, culminating in a TV-themed quiz.

---

Key Show Discussions & Insights

“The Pit” (HBO Max Medical Drama)

[02:08–11:29]

• Premise: Hospital drama set in Pittsburgh’s ER; Noah Wyle stars as veteran Dr. Robbie alongside a compelling ensemble.
• Instant Comfort:
  “It was like sinking into a warm bath of competence. These people are so good at what they do… it soothes me.” – Alexis [02:48]
• Competence and Escapism: Viewers find solace in watching professionals handle crises expertly—a balm in stressful times.
• ER Comparisons & Controversy: The show's similarity to ER (with Noah Wyle on both) sparked debate—even drawing legal attention.
  • “It has one of the main producers, John Wells. It has one of the main stars, Noah Wylie. What are you guys doing?” – Gilbert [03:15]
• Realism: Praised for a sense of verisimilitude—some true-to-life hospital chaos, now with more grit and cursing thanks to streaming.
• Charge Nurse Dana: Both a plot anchor and a fantasy of no-nonsense leadership.
  • “How much better would all our lives be if charge nurse Dana told us what to do and we did it?” – Alexis [05:02]
• Nepo Babies: A “Nepo baby bonanza”—Taylor Dearden (Bryan Cranston’s daughter), Isa Briones, and Fiona Durif—all praised for talent over lineage.
  • “I love a Nepo baby.” – Alexis [07:11]
• Humor & Tone: It's unflinching, with few laughs, but has moments of absurdity (rats, bodily fluid mishaps).
  • “This show is not very funny.” – Alexis [09:54]
  • “As someone who has spent time in an ER… ER nurses have some of the darkest senses of humor out there.” – Jason [10:33]

---

“Severance” (Apple TV Paranoid Thriller)

[11:46–21:52]

• Premise: Office workers have their work and home selves “severed” by memory loss surgery; addresses corporate control, selfhood, and morality.
• Season 2 Shift: Focus moves from corporate oppression to self-oppression—the “innies” tyrannized by their “outies.”
  • “They’re kind of prisoners of themselves.” – Jason [13:07]
• Ambitious Tonality: Artistic, “serious and silly,” full of contradictory feelings—audiences are both “exhausted and entertained.”
  • “It has great ambition in terms of its tone… it both is very, very serious and very, very silly.” – Jason [13:07]
• Workplace Satire: Mundane perks (melon bars, dance breaks) become cherished; the design (retro-modern, oddly claustrophobic) is routinely praised.
• Actor Standouts:
  • “I think Adam Scott is amazing, and so is Brit Lauer.” – Jason [13:07]
  • Patricia Arquette’s performance splits the panel: “There’s one episode late in season… I think I fell asleep twice.” – Gilbert [17:04]
  • “Tramell Tillman… is incredible.” – Gilbert [17:31]
• Storytelling Frustrations: The mystery (What’s Lumen up to?) risks running too long, echoing Lost.
  • “I do not care anymore what Lumen is up to… and yet I enjoy it.” – Alexis [15:17]
• Underlying Questions:
  • “It turns into a show… about slavery, about whether these innies… are they worthy of love, are they worthy of life?” – Jason [19:51]
• Ben Stiller’s Shift: Known for comedy, now deftly directing brooding, daring drama.
• Lasting Impact: Even if the central mysteries resolve, panelists argue its artistry and performance will sustain it.

---

“The White Lotus” (HBO Satirical Drama)

[22:21–30:08]

• Premise: Each season, rich guests wreck and unravel at a luxury resort; beautiful scenery, sharp satire, and at least one corpse per season.
• Cultural Role:
  • “A show that understands the job of TV… all the wealth porn and all the schadenfreude, rolled into one.” – Alexis [23:08]
• Season 3 in Thailand: Some say the formula’s getting repetitive, though panelists suggest this echoes television’s comforting procedural side.
• Themes: The endless cycle of rich-people folly likened to Buddhist samsara.
• War-Movie Paradox: Can you ever not make luxury look glorious, even when critiquing it?
  • “I don’t care how much they make us want to think that being insanely wealthy looks bad, it still looks pretty good.” – Jason [27:28]
• Audience Fantasy: Viewers believe they’d be “better rich people.” (“I’d behave appropriately!” – Alexis [27:28])
• What Would Wealth Buy?
  • “I would buy a nursing comedy club. And I would pay the audience to laugh at my jokes.” – Jason [29:17]

---

“Somebody Somewhere” (HBO, Comedy-Drama)

[32:22–37:49]

• Premise: A woman, played by Bridget Everett, returns to her Kansas hometown and finds community among lovable outsiders.
• Emotional Power:
  • “This is a show that breaks my heart and then puts it back together with a band aid and a kiss.” – Alexis [32:56]
• Gentle, Particular: Small-scale, sincere, and focused on everyday kindness and real, incremental growth.
• Bridget Everett’s Performance:
  • “All that too muchness and over-the-topness she has restrained into playing a very real character.” – Alexis [33:47]
• Writing & Recognition:
  • “It has been ignored by the Emmys until now. And this year… so pleased to see it recognized.” – Alexis [36:48]
• A Rare Slice of TV: An endangered style—small, distinct, voicey comedies—surviving amidst bigger and flashier peers.

---

“The Studio” (Apple TV, Hollywood Comedy)

[37:52–46:12]

• Premise: Seth Rogen stars as a hapless new studio chief at the fictional “Continental.” The show lampoons modern Hollywood’s chaos and tech-diminished power.
• Warm Satire: More Larry Sanders than Larry Sanders—funny and affectionate more than scathing.
  • “This is much more warm-hearted… an actual comedy.” – Jason [39:49]
• Lovably Doofy Protagonist:
  • “It was hard for me… to imagine that someone like this stupid and this out of touch would have risen this high [in Hollywood].” – Alexis [38:46]
• Central Insight: The fall of the all-powerful mogul—an underdog, not an overlord, is now in charge.
• Cameos: From Marty Scorsese (Emmy-nominated cameo) to Zoe Kravitz, Anthony Mackie, Ron Howard, and more.
• Standout Supporting Cast:
  • “Sal Saperstein, the character played by Ike Barinholtz, who might be my favorite character of the entire year.” – Gilbert [44:01]
• Subversive Beauty: Unusually beautiful cinematography for a comedy, both a loving send-up and a celebration of movie magic.

---

“The Rehearsal” (Nathan Fielder’s Surreal Docu-Comedy)

[46:27–54:41]

• Premise: Nathan Fielder stages increasingly bizarre, high-concept simulations so people (and himself) can “rehearse” life events. Season 2: pilots, disaster protocols… then everything gets weirder.
• Indescribable, Unforgettable:
  • “First of all, I think this show’s a triumph. I love this show…” – Jason [47:58]
• Horrifying Brilliance: Body-shaved adult baby, giant crib, puppet breastfeeding, and more—beats that haunt the panel (and viewers).
  • “Is it the scene where he is breastfed by a giant puppet?” – Gilbert [50:24]
  • “I'm so scarred. I'm so scarred.” – Alexis [50:41]
• Obsession & Parody: Satirizes both obsessive analysis (à la Reddit theories) and the allure of finding deep meaning in everything.
  • “Everything’s a murder wall if you try hard enough, like you can red string just about anything.” – Alexis [53:04]
• Cult Appeal: Not for everyone, but those who love it are fervent.
  • “It's for you. It's for you, Jason.” – Alexis [53:58]

---

Memorable Quotes

• “It was like sinking into a warm bath of competence.” – Alexis [02:48], on The Pit
• “You think everyone needs a Dana?” – Gilbert [05:48]
• “I would like to try [being rich]. I think the secret to these shows is… I would do better if I were in this gorgeous hotel.” – Alexis [27:28]
• “This is a show that breaks my heart and then puts it back together with a band aid and a kiss.” – Alexis [32:56]
• “No one… thinks, one day I will green light Kool Aid.” – Alexis [42:01], on The Studio
• “Is it the scene where he is breastfed by a giant puppet?” – Gilbert [50:24], on The Rehearsal
• “Everything’s a murder wall if you try hard enough.” – Alexis [53:04]
• “It is literally, Nathan, for you.” – Gilbert [54:00]

---

Quick Hits: Additional Shows Mentioned

[54:41–55:17]

• Brief shout-outs to Adolescence, The Bear, Abbott Elementary, Adults, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, The Last of Us, Slow Horses, and Andor.

---

Game Segment: Channel-Surfing TV Quiz

[57:18–63:19]

• Rounds included:
  • Don’t Cross the Streams (Real or fake streaming platforms)
  • The Plot Thickens (Name the show from the logline)
  • Emmy Trivia
• Playful, chaotic energy; Alexis wins “The Gilby” trophy.
  • “I thought I didn't deserve this, but looking at this small plastic trophy, I really feel that this is aligned with what I believe I deserve.” – Alexis [63:09]

---

Conclusion & Tone

The episode effortlessly mixes smart, passionate criticism with behind-the-scenes industry fun and genuine, infectious love of TV culture. There’s comfort in the familiar, awe in the ambitious, and joy (or sometimes trauma) in the totally unhinged. Whether you’re a prestige drama superfan, comedy obsessive, or simply Emmy-curious, this spirited discussion is as snackable and layered as any great night of channel surfing.

---

Next Sunday: Gilbert will be joined by colleagues from the NYT Food desk to discuss America’s best restaurants.

---

Transcript

[Alexis Soloski]

Deal's not just another payroll platform. It's one your team might actually enjoy. Hr, it and payroll together finally built in. House built. For peace of mind, visit D eel.com NYT.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome, everyone, to the Daily Sunday Special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, the editor of the New York Times Book Review. And every week here, you'll find us talking about movies, books, the arts, just all sorts of culture. Today, we're talking about tv. The Emmy Awards are tonight, the biggest night in television, marking the best shows released between June 1, 2024 and May 31 of 2025. They've made it very simple. It's not at all confusing. Here in New York, a group of us has gathered to talk about some of the nominated shows that just keep rattling around in our brains. And we're gonna be talking about some of those shows in depth. So if we get to something that you don't want spoiled, you're in the middle of the season. Just jump ahead a few minutes and all will be well. Here with me is Jason Zinneman, a critic who writes about comedy for the Times. Hello, Jason.

[Jason Zinneman]

Hello. Good to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And also Alexis Soloski, one of our culture reporters. Hello, Alexis.

[Alexis Soloski]

Hi.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Hi. All right, there's a conceit here, and I'm hoping that you can, like, come along with me. You have to use your imagination. So picture the three of us sitting together on a sofa. It was really relaxed. Potato chips and soda. And I'm just flipping through channels. We're looking at tv. I'm gonna stop on a show, and then we're gonna talk about that show for a few minutes. And then we're gonna change the channel.

[Alexis Soloski]

TV roulette.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yes. Can you imagine that?

[Alexis Soloski]

Yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This is audio. It's the theater of the mind. You got it?

[Jason Zinneman]

Okay, I'm on board.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Excellent. Okay, so I am going to pick up this not at all metaphorical remote. It's actually a real remote. As the two of you can see, that that's old school. It is. I think we should just get started and flip to our first show.

[Ad Voice 1]

Dyno Mike.

[Jason Zinneman]

I am the one who knocks.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome to the Pit.

[Alexis Soloski]

We got two traumas from the tee, five minutes out.

[Jason Zinneman]

Okay, copy that. Actually, this is the most important person that you're gonna meet today.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This is Dana.

[Jason Zinneman]

She's our char. She is the ringleader of our circus.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do what she says when she says it. First up is the Pit. This is a medical drama. There was a bit of a sensation. This year. It streamed on hbo. Max. It's set in an Emergency room in a hospital in Pittsburgh, hence the name of the show. And it follows a veteran doctor named Dr. Robbie, played by Noah Wiley, who you just heard in that clip, and the sort of residents and interns around him. I had not watched a hospital show in years. Really enjoyed this one. Alexis, I know you watched and enjoyed this one too.

[Alexis Soloski]

I did. I didn't at first because I thought, oh, I don't like hospital shows. I don't need hospital shows. I find them stressful. I find them melodramatic. And then I started watching this one and it was like sinking into a warm bath of competence. These people are so good and at what they do, and watching them be good at what they do is. It's my asmr. Like, it soothes me.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I agree with everything you just said. I possibly have not watched a medical show intensely since er, and there's weirdness around this. Michael Crichton essentially created er, and Michael Crichton's widow said, this just feels like a reboot of er. It has one of the main producers, John Wells. It has one of the main stars, Noah Wylie. What are you guys doing?

[Alexis Soloski]

This is a real Theseus Ship kind of situation.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's fraught and the courts will work it out, but the competence is real and there's something about the time we are living in in which it is soothing, even though the show is intensely stressful. Just watch people be good. It's like, I wish I was as good at anything I do in my life as these people are at what they do.

[Alexis Soloski]

And when people come in with problems, they diagnose them, they find out what's wrong and then they treat it. It's the.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Are you saying this is how medicine should work?

[Alexis Soloski]

Yes. Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Gilbert Cruz]

What did you think about Noah Wiley? Who? I guess I forgot how wonderful a screen presence he is.

[Alexis Soloski]

He is. I mean, I think that when he was on er, he was so young and he looked so young that I didn't find him as compell. But, you know, a Noah Wylie with some miles on him, with some lines on his face, like, I can't. That gray in his beard straight into my veins. I love it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Dr. Robbie, which is the name again of his character, is my guy. I can't not wait until season two, which is starting in January. Jason, you didn't sort of dip into this?

[Jason Zinneman]

No, I've never seen this show. Hearing you talk about it makes me curious. Does it always end the same way?

[Gilbert Cruz]

In what way?

[Jason Zinneman]

Like, does it always end with a problem? Being solved.

[Alexis Soloski]

No, no, no. It's not procedural. You know, storylines will go through several episodes, but it is one 15 hour shift and there is a particular crisis and you were like, oh, I did not need a crisis. There was crisis enough already in this overcrowded, understaffed emergency room. But there is a crisis and they handle it. They handle it the best they can. Also charge nurst. How much better would all of our lives be if charge nurse Dana told us what to do and we did it? I think it would be very good. Listen up, Central789 is now the blood donor center.

[Jason Zinneman]

Anyone who says O neg or ops.

[Alexis Soloski]

We need you to donate now.

[Jason Zinneman]

Hands where I can see them.

[Alexis Soloski]

She's very good at her job.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You think everyone needs a Dana?

[Alexis Soloski]

A Dana in their lives?

[Jason Zinneman]

Yeah, I can see the fantasy of it, because it's hard to think of an experience with the hospital that isn't frustrating on multiple levels. So to hear this description sounds like wonderful escapism.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I mean, it's also, you know, the doctors experience tons of frustrations. One of the tensions early on in the series is between Dr. Rabi and the administrator, sort of the main administrator of the hospital who is coming down and saying, you know, your patient satisfaction numbers need to go up. And he says, we don't have enough nurses, we don't have enough beds. So it definitely sort of grapples in that way with what appears to be real tension in the emergency rooms of today. And I think I have also read that emergency room professionals who watch this show are like, yeah, that's what it's like. I mean, you know, give or take a couple of dramatic moments here, there, like, by all accounts, there's a great sense of verisimilitude to it. And because it's streamed on Max, you also can do what you were never able to do on er, which is show some really gnarly stuff, which you would see in an emergency room and then have people curse a lot.

[Alexis Soloski]

Yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So it's toeing this line between sort of the hospital procedurals of old and like a more prestige TV of the present day.

[Alexis Soloski]

I also love it, I'll admit, because it is a Nepo baby bonanza. There are at least three Nepo babies.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, I did not know this.

[Alexis Soloski]

Yes, yes. There are at least three Nepo babies in the cast. And I love a Nepo baby.

[Jason Zinneman]

I feel you're an expert, too.

[Alexis Soloski]

You should say, I am. I am. I am on the Nepo baby beat. But also, I feel so tender toward the Nepo. Babies of the world because of and despite the advantages that they have had. But this is a best case scenario because in only one case is the parent what we might think of as famous. The other two parents are just working actors. And you would never. You don't know. You would never know that these are the children of these parents.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, who. I had never seen many of the actors in this cast, other than maybe the top two or three. So whose parents. I mean, whose kids are these?

[Alexis Soloski]

Yeah, it's three of the doctors. It's Taylor Dearden, it's Isa Briones, and it's Fiona Durif. And probably the one with the most famous parent is Taylor Durden, who plays Mel, who is a resident who the show suggests is Neurodiverse. And I love this actress. I love this character. She is an angel. She should be protected at all costs. Like, her empathy is extraordinary.

[Jason Zinneman]

You okay?

[Alexis Soloski]

My patient hasn't seen her daughter, and.

[Jason Zinneman]

It won't happen again.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Never apologize for feeling something, for your patience.

[Alexis Soloski]

And it turns out, surprise. She is the daughter of Bryan Cranston.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What?

[Jason Zinneman]

Yeah.

[Alexis Soloski]

Yeah. Mel is the daughter of Bryan Cranston.

[Gilbert Cruz]

She's great.

[Alexis Soloski]

She's great.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That character is wonderful in the show.

[Alexis Soloski]

And then two of the other actresses, Isa Brionis and Fiona Duruff, who play young doctors, are the daughters, respectively, of John. John Briones and Brad Duraf, both of whom are working actor.

[Jason Zinneman]

But let me. We should say the voice of Chucky. You've written some excellent profiles of Nepo babies. I love that in the last year. And so I feel like you're like the good person to ask it. You say that this is like the best example of a Nepo baby. What's a bad example of it is the point that if you can tell too much who the parent is.

[Alexis Soloski]

I think it is a bad example is if you have to spend a moment thinking, oh, go. Did they really deserve this? Was there someone better that they could have cast in this role? Did they only get the role because of their parent? That's when it feels icky. And I've never had a thought with any of these actors who are wonderful and who really disappear into the roles who are really acting.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Jason, you gotta watch some of this.

[Jason Zinneman]

It sounds like.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It sounds like.

[Jason Zinneman]

I know.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Your deck is stacked.

[Jason Zinneman]

I know. I mean, there's only so many hours in the day.

[Alexis Soloski]

I will say you are a comedy critic, and this show is not very funny.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There's no comedy in it. It is so. And again, I love the show, but it is Incredibly serious.

[Jason Zinneman]

That's okay. I mean, that means that, like, a serious hospital show is my version of relief.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There's one funny thing that happens, and it's not funny, but it's the recurring motif of Dr. Robbie walking into a room where something terrible is happening and then two minutes later saying, it looks like you all have this, and then walking out. It's like 30% of the show.

[Alexis Soloski]

Okay, okay. There are rats who show up. There are rats. And there is one poor medical student who keeps being, like, sprayed with body fluids.

[Jason Zinneman]

See, now you're making me not like it because I'll say, as somebody who has spent time in an ER with family members. And one thing I've learned also from the comedy scene, because nurse comedy is a genre, a popular genre, that ER nurses have some of the darkest senses of humor out there. They are hilarious. And there's a whole market of hospital humor. And I guess the idea being if you see these horrible things on a daily basis.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah.

[Jason Zinneman]

Where your job is to repress your feelings and put on a, you know, a straight face on it. That you need relief. So when they go, you know, when they finish treating you as a patient, know that when they leave, they're making fun of you later on.

[Alexis Soloski]

Sure.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Can you take both of us to the next hospital open mic, wherever that may be?

[Jason Zinneman]

Sure, I will. I will. Nurse Lake. Yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The basement of old St. Vincent's or whatever.

[Jason Zinneman]

You might have to go to a cruise. They're big on cruises.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, well, I'm totally out. I do not like cruises. All right, we're gonna change the channel here. It's time to move on to our next show. I'm the youngest boy. Move it, football head. Macro data refinement. Welcome back.

[Jason Zinneman]

Please take a seat, Irving, if you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Wouldn'T mind being in back. Tall glass of water. So obviously that was Milchek from Apple tv. Severance. And it's sort of like a minor goal in my life to achieve the calm presentation that milk check gives in all scenarios at work. This is the second season of Severance. It aired this past winter, earlier this year. And it's a sci fi trauma. It's a bit of a paranoid thriller about a bunch of office workers whose memories have been surgically severed. We live in a world in this show in which you can divide your time between your work and your personal lives. You're essentially two different people in the same body, and neither person has memory of the other person's life. This season follows up on what was a pretty dramatic season one finale which aired so long ago in TV years. It was three years ago. And Severance this year has the most nominations of any show at the Emmys. 27 nominations, which is so many for a show that is fascinating to me in how both exciting and sleepy it can be at the same time. Jason, did you watch season one and season two in real time?

[Jason Zinneman]

I did. In fact, this is, I think, one of the few shows that I watch right when it comes out. And I kind of resent it because it forces you with a straight face to use terms that you previously only used to describe your belly button, which are innies and outies. It's humiliating to have to do this. We're grownups. But you sort of have to do it for this season. Because I think the big shift is that the first season, the fundamental drama, is about the Ennis, who are kind of oppressed and controlled by this sinister, mysterious company, Lumen. And that sort of shifts a bit in the second season to the Enies being oppressed and controlled by their outies, which opens up all this new kind of metaphorical running room. Cause they're kind of prisoners of themselves. I love this show because it has great ambition in terms of its tone. It both is very, very serious and very, very silly. In fact, I think it kind of sometimes teeters on the ludicrous and it escapes that I find because of the strength of the cast. I think Adam Scott is amazing, and so is what's her name, Brit Lauer. And I think this season in particular, cause they're playing two characters who are getting increasingly different, and the subtlety in their performance is really remarkable.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And.

[Jason Zinneman]

And, you know, this season sort of culminates with a meeting between Mark sending messages from his Indy to his Audi. His Audi back to his.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Andy.

[Jason Zinneman]

Oh, hey. Ms. Gogol told me you like someone down there.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Helena Egan, right?

[Jason Zinneman]

Her innie name's Helenie, which, again, it's always when I watch it, it's a little bit silly, but they managed to make it a sort of dripping fair fight telly.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Actually, Kelly, it's a person I'm in love with. Which you'd know if you'd ever taken.

[Jason Zinneman]

An interest in my life before tonight.

[Gilbert Cruz]

When you need something.

[Alexis Soloski]

I love it. And I find it exhausting. Like, I do not care. I do not care anymore what Lumen is up to. I do not care anymore what will happen to these employees. Uh, it's just stretched out the mystery too long for me and not enough has happened. And yet I enjoy it so much. Like any episode that involves the goats. The mysterious goats. I am. I'm here for the goats. I would watch the show that was just a supercut of employee perks, because when the Indies do well, they get these perquisites like melon bar, egg bar, music, dance experience, little finger trap toys. And I would just watch that in my heart of hearts. I love a workplace comedy. I love a workplace comedy so hard. And all the parts of this that verge on workplace comedy and absurdity, I love so much. And the parts that are deeper and more philosophical, I have come to find enervating. But goats and the design, oh, my God, the design. Like the mid century modern of it all, the creepiness of it all, of having these huge spaces and then crowding all of the workstations into one tiny part of this large space. The low ceilings, the lighting. It's beautiful.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is beautiful. I mean, I love the production design, I love the score, the acting. But by and large, maybe, give or take one performance.

[Alexis Soloski]

Ooh, provocative.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Talk about who I'm talking about here. But the who are you talking about?

[Alexis Soloski]

Who are you talking about?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm not in on Patricia Arquette's performance on this show. I think she's a wonderful actress who's been in many good things, but her. The character that they have set up and her performance is not. There's one episode late in the season that's focused primarily on her, and I. I think I fell asleep twice while I watched two successive episodes.

[Jason Zinneman]

Is that her fault or is that the script?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, I would say both. I would say both. Everyone else is great, particularly Tramell Tillman, who you heard at the beginning, who plays Mr. Milchek and who many people saw this summer in the new Mission Impossible movie. He's incredible.

[Alexis Soloski]

What a star.

[Gilbert Cruz]

But there is. I agree with both of you. I find much of the sort of the metaphorical conceit fascinating. I think the thing that I continue to trip on is you were alluding to sort of the mystery element of it, the lostness of it. And I use that not pejoratively, because I think Lost is one of the great shows of the past many decades. But there is this part of it which is like, all right, what is Lumen doing? What are the goats? Why are there only four, seemingly four people working at this company in charge?

[Jason Zinneman]

But I think I empathize. And I also felt that. But I also, at some point I realized, oh, this isn't the strength of it isn't the mystery. Okay, Like, I think, you know, like Alexis is saying, like, it has moment to moment, all these incredible jewels. I mean, the relationship between Christopher Walken and John Turturro is beautifully realized. Zack Cherry is showing incredible range. That's a fascinating relationship with Merritt Weaver. The language of it is incredibly ornate and interesting. But fundamentally, I think it's not a show where plot is its strength. And increasingly the way that we're taught to watch these shows is as in trying to solve a mystery of the plot. You know, we're not living in a golden age of tv, right? As our TV critic pointed out, we're in a mid era of tv. But if you were to make a case that we are, if you were to try to strain it, I think you'd have to start here because what it's attempting to do is so ambitious. And if you look at really great art, plot is important, but it's not certainly not what you would describe as the most important aspect of most great art. And I think at some point it became less interested in plot and the mystery of it than in some of these ideas where it's actually quite dark ideas. I mean, it turns into a show, in my view, about slavery, about whether these innies are they people, are they worthy of love, are they worthy of life, or are they just means to an end?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I think it's fascinating too, because there's a show. It's sort of created by a gentleman named Dan Erickson, but it is produced and many of the episodes are directed by someone who we used to consider one of the great comic actors, Ben Stiller, who has become someone now who I feel like has moved into this phase where this sort of is his life now as opposed to being a comedic actor.

[Jason Zinneman]

It's true and you forget it. It doesn't feel like a bed. Every once in a while something will happen where you're like, oh yeah, there's a comedian behind this. And I do think that's the magic trick of the show is that the tone, you know, is it's paranoid. It's kind of unlike anything else on tv.

[Alexis Soloski]

I would say it really is. Like the flavor is unlike anything else. And it could. I mean, it is a dark show and it is a dour show in its way, but it could be so much darker and so much more dour. And there are moments of pur. Pure absurdism that really leaven it and make it feel like nothing else. I would like to believe, and I don't know if this is true, but I would like to believe that it is strong enough that if the central mysteries were Solved if the questions were answered, if we suddenly knew everything about Lumen Industries and what Lumen Industries was doing, that there would still be enough for the show to persevere, that this is just a carapace. And maybe a carapace that it doesn't really need anym.

[Jason Zinneman]

You're right. I think it also becomes like a.

[Alexis Soloski]

Romance in which there's a love triangle.

[Jason Zinneman]

There's a love triangle in which he has to choose at the end because.

[Alexis Soloski]

He has two selves. So it's like a love quadrilateral.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yeah, that's right. And then, you know, he chooses and he doesn't. And then there's, like, this Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, you know, freeze frame.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is. The last minute of this season is quite striking and memorable both in musical choice and imagery.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yes. The Velvet Fog returns.

[Alexis Soloski]

It's like the Graduate before they get on the bus.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We are going to keep surfing. Let's move on to our next show, gang.

[Jason Zinneman]

We were on a break.

[Alexis Soloski]

Kim, would you stop taking pictures of yourself? Your sister's going to jail. Who did you meet with? A boat? Are they decent people?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. They own their own yacht. They're rich.

[Alexis Soloski]

Just because people are rich doesn't mean they're not trashy.

[Jason Zinneman]

Most rich people are trashy. I wouldn't go that far.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That accent can only be from one show. We have changed the channel back to hbo. We're talking about the White Lotus. This is the third season of the Mike White drama in which essentially, rich people go to a fancy resort somewhere all owned by the White Lotus chain, and then someone dies. First one Hawaii, second one Sicily. Next season's gonna be in France, but this one was set in Thailand. Alexis, I don't watch the show. I've never wanted to start. I don't think I ever will.

[Alexis Soloski]

How do you. What do you do at. Oh, my God. At cocktail parties? Do you talk about books? Jesus.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. And I can't find anyone to actually engage with me.

[Alexis Soloski]

How do you participate in the life of the culture? I have to.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I think I'd just say, have you seen the bear? That show's great. People are like, yeah, the bear. Talk about the White Lotus.

[Alexis Soloski]

I love a show that understands the assignment. I love a show that understands that the job of tv. TV has many jobs, but I would say the really big one is to entertain. And that knows that what we want to see are beautiful people in a gorgeous location being miserable. So it is all the wealth, porn, and all the schadenfreude rolled into one. And Because Mike White and his casting directors are very savvy. They get some of the greatest working actors to populate these shows. And so it has mystery, it has excitement, it has sex. It has me imagining what my life would be like if I too could afford room service. It has it all. It delivers.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Why do you think, other than Wealthporn Schadenfreude, when you talk to your friends about this show, do you want more?

[Alexis Soloski]

Do you want more than what?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do you. I'm not sold yet. Tell me. I need you to sell me. But the Parker Posey accent, what do you.

[Alexis Soloski]

Yes. And you know when you said this could only be one show, I think it could actually be two shows. One is the White Lotus and one is an unusually demented episode of Southern Charm.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Alexis Soloski]

But I think it has everything. And I don't think you need to think too hard. I think it has these incredibly beautiful locations, this evocation of luxury. I think it has wonderful actors. In every season, something really terrible and awkward happens on a boat. So if, I mean, you need more than this.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I get that. But I do feel like this season got some mix notices, as they say.

[Alexis Soloski]

I think it did. I think this season did feel sometimes like it was repeating beats of the previous seasons, which you could say suggests a show that's out of ideas. I like to liken it to the Buddhist concept of samsara. Right.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Remind us what that is again.

[Jason Zinneman]

No, no.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I just want a song for the booty. I want to be on the same page here.

[Alexis Soloski]

How do you. I know just this idea that, you know, we are in a constant cycle of death and rebirth and that we are always going to work out the same tensions, the same conflicts, the same desires that. That is at the core of our humanity. So. And I also think that television does benefit somewhat from the familiar. I do enjoy a procedural. I do enjoy the comforts of a procedural. And I would not necessarily call White Lotus comfortable show because there was a lot of cringe, there was like a semi incest plotline this season that I absolutely had to watch through my fingers. But I do think that there is something comforting in seeing a writer director at the top of his game do what he does, which has always been, if you're Mike White, to display humans at their most venal.

[Jason Zinneman]

Most people don't have good values.

[Alexis Soloski]

They're scammers. You're all gorgeous and you come for money. So you have to be hyper vigilant. Okay. You have to be on your guard.

[Jason Zinneman]

Let me ask you if you agree. I sort of have. There's so many of these shows about rich people behaving badly that are intended for us to dislike them. And I. You know, there's a thing that people say or a theory about war movies, that there's no such thing as an anti war movie. That if you put war on screen, it's inevitably gonna come off glamorous and it's gonna romanticize violence. And I've kind of grown to feel like that's true of rich people. Movies and television shows, of which this is not an insignificant part of our cultural diet succession. Most famously, I don't care how much they make us want to think that being insanely wealthy looks bad, it still looks pretty good.

[Alexis Soloski]

I would like to try it. I think that the secret to these shows is the feeling that you have, even if you don't express it, which is, I would do better if I were in this gorgeous hotel, in this gorgeous location. I would behave appropriately.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You know, everyone thinks they'll be a better rich person. Sure. Do you?

[Jason Zinneman]

No. No.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right.

[Jason Zinneman]

Do I think I'm gonna be better? No, I think, you know, you're just gonna be gross. Yeah. I'm gonna be like, what arrogance. What hubris. To think that I'll be like, clearly there's something corrupting about being surrounded by all. By having everything taken care of. Why would I be any better? I don't feel that I'm gonna say. And I guess I mean, I also, really, I confess, I do come to television for fundamentally different reasons. I like to feel bad. I like shows that aim to disrupt and make me feel uncomfortable. And this explains so much. I wrote a book on horror films. This is who I am. It's funny because the White Lotus I enjoyed because it is uncomfortable and there is a tension. And although I didn't see the season, I did see that monologue by Sam Rockwell everywhere. That was this year. Right. Which did make me very interested. And he goes for it. Mike White. And those are the parts that are exciting.

[Alexis Soloski]

This is so funny. Cause all I want out of TV is to feel okay, and you want the opposite. But wait, Jason, because you have introduced this, I have to know what is the most disgusting thing that you would buy with your billions? What is the most disgusting, abusive waste of money?

[Gilbert Cruz]

He would buy a comedy club. I would buy a comedy for nurses.

[Jason Zinneman]

I would buy a nursing comedy club. And I would pay the audience to laugh at my jokes. I would go on stage and tell nursing jokes.

[Alexis Soloski]

All dad jokes. All dad jokes. All the time?

[Jason Zinneman]

Yes, all the time. All the time. No, I once I've been to a fancy, fancy hotel before and there are perks there that are corrupting. And I've been to one where it was a resort where at any point in the resort if you asked for a bowl of popcorn, it would appear and I can't think of anything better, like any imagine in your life, at any time in your life, you just think I feel like, you know, who shares this?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Like a popcorn concierge.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yeah, Lorne Michaels. If you ever I'm sure you've read profiles of Lorne Michaels. He always has a bowl of popcorn. And I get it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, we are going to take a quick break and when we come back we'll talk about some proper comedies.

[Ad Voice 1]

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Join host Michael Cyril Creighton behind the scenes to talk all things Arconia with Steve Martin, Martin Short, Selena Gomez and more. Actors, writers and crew from season five. Watch and listen to the new podcast series Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast now streaming with new episodes Tuesdays. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and don't miss Only Murders in the Building streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers Terms apply.

[Ad Voice 2]

This podcast is supported by My Mochi Ice Cream. We all have those moments, midday, late night. And we want something cool and sweet. But not just anything, something better. Like My Mochi Ice Cream. My Mochi is scoops of rich, creamy ice cream wrapped in soft, chewy dough. It's like a sweet little ice cream dumpling that will curb your cravings and keep you feeling joyfully chill. My Mochi comes in tons of amazing flavors like strawberry. It's bursting with real berry flavor that's deliciously refreshing and mango. Talk about rich and tropical. It tastes like a mini vacation in your mouth, feeling extra indulgent. Try My Mochi Cookies and Cream. It's everything you love about the classic with a fun handheld twist. My Mochi Ice Cream is gluten free and only around 70 calories per piece. It's made for mindful snacking for a bite sized treat that's a little different and a lot satisfying. Look for the purple box of My Mochi Ice Cream at Walmart or go to mymochi.com to find a store near you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome back. This is a Sunday Special. I'm Gilbert Cruz and I'm here with Jason Zinneman and Alexis Soloski. On this Emmy's Day. We're talking about some of our favorite TV from the past Year. Let us go to our next show. Channel change. Now.

[Alexis Soloski]

I couldn't help but wonder.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You start packing yet? Oh, no, but I will. You want some help?

[Jason Zinneman]

From who?

[Alexis Soloski]

You?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yes, from me. Come on. Well.

[Jason Zinneman]

Cause you hate packing.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Everybody hates packing, Joel. But, you know, we do the things that we hate for the ones we love. Oh, my gosh.

[Jason Zinneman]

Are you being tender with me?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yes. I like it. So this is Somebody Somewhere, which aired its third and final season. This is about a woman played by Bridget Everett, who moves back to her Midwestern hometown and finds a bunch of friends, bunch of outsiders that she falls in with. And it's sort of like a warm show. Both of you like this?

[Alexis Soloski]

I love this show. This is a show that breaks my heart and then puts it back together with a band aid and a kiss. I felt so many feelings just in that little clip that you played. All I want are shows about people being kind to each other and learning to grow and be better in incremental ways. Like this is what I love and this does it so well. And if you have ever seen Bridget Everett on stage, she is an alt cabaret performer. She is dynamic, she is exciting, she is sumptuous, she is over the top and all of that too muchness and over the topness she has restrained into playing a very real character.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yeah, I mean, I can't think of a half hour show, comedy or otherwise, that's made me cry more than the show. Now, I don't know. And it's something I thought, why am I always crying at this show? But I think there's a. I have a couple theories. One is the use of music. Music is the most emotional of art forms. And as Alexis points out, you know, Bridget Everett is a singer and they strategically use. She has this incredible gift, a cup.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Of coffee or a trip to the store. I'll take forever and then I'll take some more.

[Jason Zinneman]

And not just her, but there's a couple other, you know, sort of strategic songs in the show which are heartbreaking. Second of all, I think so much of entertainment is these high stakes stories about fighting aliens or, you know, doctors saving lives or billionaires fighting people. It almost feels radical to see a carefully observed portrait of ordinary people, working class people in the Midwest trying to make connections because, oh, the way you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Look at me, I can't explain it, but I know it's love.

[Jason Zinneman]

And it's funny. It's a funny. It's an irony of the show that it's this Middle American portrait because it's made by all these downtown New York theater people and Bridget Everett and Jeff Hillary get a lot of credit, as they should. They're the kind of friendship that's at the core of this show. But the writers and creators of the show ran a off Broadway theater company called Debate Society that really put on these jewel like productions. And they, you know, they were also, a lot of them were set in the Midwest and what they. I would describe them as being very fully realized, very detailed. So every choice felt like incredible amount of thought came into it. Every character felt like they had a considered backstory, felt very lived in. At the same time, there was something a little Lynchian about these shows. And so what they did here is they took out the kind of Lynchian aspect to it and put in this realism anchored by this, as Alexis points out, this understated performance by Bridget Everett. And there's a real power in this marriage, particularly. I think one thing that's always emotional is when these larger than life characters go small. You know, when you see the tenderness of, you know, Marlon Brando and the Godfather at the end, at the end of the Godfather, that makes our people cry. And there's something similar about Patricia Everest's performance that she's this powerhouse, but she's constantly making herself small in a way that is very recognizable. And it's really not what you feel. At least what I feel when I see Bridget Everett doing cabaret show. You think this is this sort of superhero like. But she really is playing against it in a quite heartbreaking way.

[Alexis Soloski]

It's so particular, it's so beautifully observed. It has been ignored by the Emmys until now. And this year, finally, it has two nominations. One from Jeff Hiller, who is extraordinary, and then one I think really, really deserved for outstanding writing because the writing really is outstanding and I'm so pleased to see it recognized. But I think there was a moment in the 2000 and tens where studios, network streamers were putting their money a little bit behind these sort of smaller, voicey comedies that felt really lovely and really particular. And we've moved away from that. And the fact that somebody somewhere was allowed to exist that was given three seasons. What a gift. What a joy.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, listening to music, Jason, and watching TV and watching movies are really the only way that I can cry these days. So I think I need to watch somebody somewhere. We are going to change the channel.

[Ad Voice 1]

You unlock this door with the key of imagination.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You come at the king, you best not miss. You know, prestige films and box office hits, those are not mutually exclusive. We can do both and we will do both. And that is why I am excited to announce that we are fast tracking a Kool Aid movie. Oh, yeah, this is the studio. This is a show that all three of us watched. It's an Apple TV show. It's co created by. And it stars Seth Rogen. And he plays an executive at a Hollywood studio named Continental, who at the beginning of the series is elevated to studio chief when his mentor, the former studio chief, is deposed. And this is a Hollywood satire, Obviously. This is something that Hollywood loves to do. It loves to make fun of itself, whether it's in something really dark like the Player, the Robert Altman movie, or lighter things like this one. What did we think of this show?

[Alexis Soloski]

I'll be honest, it took a minute for me because Seth Rogen is playing a very Seth Rogen character. His studio executive, Matt Remick, is extremely doofy. He is so doofy. And it was hard for me, even in the comedy universe, the heightened reality universe, to imagine that someone like this stupid and this out of touch would have risen this high. And I wouldn't say I'm someone with like a glowing opinion of studio executives. And yet. So I kept longing for someone who was just a little smarter, a little savvier, who would still make these mistakes. But I was staying with my sister in LA and I have compromised night vision. And as such, I walked through her screen door and the only thing I could think of to say was, oh, yeah. So it got. And by the final episodes, the Golden Globe episodes, perfect. It got me. I was all in. I loved it.

[Jason Zinneman]

I mean, I love this genre. I mean, Larry Sanders is probably my favorite television show of all time. This is not that. If you're expecting like a scathing takedown of or one deeply realistic for that matter, this is much more warm hearted. I think it's good that the Emmys are gonna, like, celebrate an actual comedy. This is.

[Alexis Soloski]

Oh, oh, the Bear.

[Jason Zinneman]

I mean, I know it's. You laughed more then than I did at the Bear.

[Alexis Soloski]

The jokes per minute ratio on the Bear, they're like, what, 0 for 30?

[Jason Zinneman]

Exactly. Which is not good. It's not good for. I mean, the Golden Globes episode of the Studio I thought was hilarious and was very well crafted. It's not a show where you've seen everything it's done before. At the same time, I think it has one great insight and innovation, which is that we're living in this time where Hollywood has lost its mojo, has lost its swagger, and bosses more generally of prestige, institutions, Seem like the stature has fallen a little bit. No offense, Gilbert, as a boss of.

[Gilbert Cruz]

A prestige institution, a boss with a small B. So it's fine.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yes, yes. Okay. And I think what the people who created the studio, they saw this as an opportunity because if you think of a Hollywood mogul, what do you think of a cigar chomping person?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Robert Evans.

[Jason Zinneman]

Robert Evans. Someone who's intimidating, someone who's making decisions because of the bottom line. What they realize is that, oh, you could actually make a Hollywood mogul who's not only like a underdog, but a pathetic, likable underdog. You can make him like a Seth Rogen figure, which I had never seen before. And I think it's in its most Larry Sanders mom. He's this guy who's desperate for validation, who got into this for the art because he loved these great movies. And then he suddenly finds himself in this diminished business where it's really run by tech and that is realistic. I've talked to a lot of people in Hollywood or in show business who have that same story. So in that sense, I think it's actually quite topical.

[Alexis Soloski]

No one, as a child at the movie staring up at that big, beautiful screen, thinks, one day I will green light Kool Aid.

[Gilbert Cruz]

No one except for Marty Scorsese, who in the first episode makes one of many great cameos that happens by many people over the course of this season. And he, you know, he's forced to turn his three hour Killers of the Flower Moon type project about the Jonestown massacre into a Kool Aid movie, which when you, of course, as both gross and yet hilarious at the same time. And he was nominated for an Emmy for that cameo. One of the great joys of this is all the other cameos that you have in it.

[Alexis Soloski]

Zoe Kravitz, Olivia Wilde, Zoe Kravitz, amazing.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Self in three episodes at the end, Ron Howard doing Ted Sarandos, I thought.

[Alexis Soloski]

Setting himself up with hilarious Anthony Mackie. All of these people just skewering themselves. It's beautiful.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And it's something that, you know, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg and all the people around him have done well in the past. I mean, they've made many movies in which sort of the line between, you know, actors and their real Hollywood friends are very fuzzy. There's an incredible Dave Franco run in, you know, near the end of the season that I would watch again just to see his scenes. I found the show hilarious. I actually would watch the entire season again. And it also feels like there's something about Seth Rogen's laugh that sort of drives the dude of this character. I didn't know that anyone else could play this character in the way that it is played here. And it all rests in his sort of type laugh. I think he's really good in this performance.

[Alexis Soloski]

He's having a beautiful moment.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Arseth, can I say who I also think is having a beautiful moment on the studio? Sal Saperstein, the character played by Ike Barinholtz, who might be my favorite character of the entire year so far.

[Jason Zinneman]

I'm not going to pretend to have a dead cousin to give Ron Howard a note that you should.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, are you stricken by the morality of this situation?

[Jason Zinneman]

He is great.

[Gilbert Cruz]

No.

[Jason Zinneman]

Him and Katherine Hahn are a fantastic duo.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Saliva. Saliva is flying. God, what is wrong with you? Why can't you just give him the notes?

[Alexis Soloski]

Okay, now look at you. You look just like my son did.

[Jason Zinneman]

When I caught him watching porn on my iPhone. And, yeah, the running joke of everyone thanking Sal Saperstein and the Golden Globes. So there's a bunch of lines in there that were when Rami is complimenting Zoe Kravitz and he says, you know, it's good. It's not just diversity good, it's good. That's also a very of the moment.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There's some cutting stuff in there.

[Jason Zinneman]

That's some cutting stuff. One of the interesting things about this show is, is how beautifully it's shot, which I don't know if is good or bad. I wonder what you guys think about that. I mean, if it had a grittier aesthetic, would that make it better or worse? I think it does increase the sort of loving tribute to Hollywood aspect of.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Definitely draws your attention to the sort of the quote, awesomeness of the camera work. I mean, these swirling handheld cameras, the tracking shots, like that stuff is forefronted, like you're supposed to notice it.

[Jason Zinneman]

Right.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And it makes it feel like a weird contrast. Like you have these people who love movies who are doing the stupidest things possible, but yet look at the beauty of the filmmaking that is happening here. I actually think the two work in tandem.

[Alexis Soloski]

I'm a sybarite. I just. I like something pretty to look at.

[Jason Zinneman]

No, I do too. I like it. And I think it. As you said, I think there's a way to kind of rationalize why it makes sense with the material. But I'd be curious to know what it like. It does draw me out of it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah.

[Jason Zinneman]

The moments where they kind of. You're immersed in this world, it keeps saying, hey, look at this gorgeous Shot is the point. Is it trying to say, hey, look, Hollywood can still pull off this magic.

[Gilbert Cruz]

To me, that is part of the point. I think it is. Filmmaking can be beautiful, even in a show about a bunch of doofuses, you know, making bad horror movies. All right, let us change the chann one more time into a show that made me deeply uncomfortable. Marcia. Marsha.

[Alexis Soloski]

Marcia, no.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What you talking about, Willis? Look, what you're about to witness is going to seem weird, which is why I'm putting myself through it before I invite any real pilots to participate. But if a personality transfer can work on a dark, then maybe, just maybe, it could work on a human being.

[Jason Zinneman]

Okay, that's like the 15th craziest thing in that episode.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That line is like, it's impossible for me to hear Nathan Fielder's voice without the giftina from Bob's Burger. But we've arrived at Nathan Fielder's nearly impossible to describe show. This show, which aired its second season and has two Emmy nominations this year, sort of sets up, creates scenarios where you could, quote, rehearse for moments in real life in the second season. And again, Nathan Fielder is a comedian. He becomes obsessed with the idea that the reason that some plane crashes happen is because there's a dynamic that happens in pilot communication that leads to the co pilot not being able to sort of stave off emergencies that they see. Jason, this is a weird show. I almost watched it on a plane ride back from Colorado. I decided in the first two minutes to turn it off. Wise, how do you describe this show? How do you describe Nathan Fielder?

[Jason Zinneman]

First of all, I think this show's a triumph. I love this show and I think it's interesting. It is a hard show to describe, but I think it's actually fundamentally about a socially awkward, emotionally clueless control freak trying to be a normal person. That's what all his work is kind of about. And the method of creating these rehearsals is a means to that end. You know, he has this big theory in the show that miscommunication among pilots is the cause of plane crashes. And if we could fix that, then we could solve this major problem. And he goes a long way to convincing you he's right more than any of his previous work, which always kind of blurs the line between reality and fiction. This one really makes you question what is real, what is not. And in thinking of, like, what this has in common with all his previous work. Flight is a big part of his aesthetic. At the end of Nathan for your, the last image is this drone shot flying up into the sky. At the end of the curse, there's this horrifying levitation where he violently floats up into space. And the end of this show, Nathan Fielder flies a Boeing 737 passenger plane. And there's an element of Nathan Fielder of the showman, of the. That he's tried to create a sense of awe in the way that, like in Wicked, when she flies, the impact it has on the audience is this. It's trying to create this sort of disorienting sense of wonder. And in the third episode where he recreates the life of Sully, which also includes a crazy bit of theatrical flight when he turns himself into Baby Sullenberger and he shaves his body. And then you see him in a diaper walking out, and then suddenly you see this giant crib and you have no idea what you're watching at that moment. You're like, what your brain's got to re. And you realize, oh, he's built this three story tall crib and then he's hooked into these harnesses like from Peter Pan.

[Gilbert Cruz]

If even just the tiniest bit of Sully could become a part of me, it would all be worth it.

[Jason Zinneman]

And he flies up into this crypt. It's a very magical, magical moment which precedes the most horrifying, awkward moment I've seen all year.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It was difficult at first to inhabit the mind of a baby. Is it the scene where he is breastfed by a giant puppet?

[Jason Zinneman]

By a giant puppet, yes. And basically he's almost like clowning on Mother's man.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So I tried not to think about the fact that I was a 41 year old man and just did my best to be present in the moment. So that face that Alexis is making right now.

[Alexis Soloski]

I'm so scarred. I'm so scarred.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Just wait until you watch it.

[Alexis Soloski]

No, I did. I did. I watched it. I watched it.

[Jason Zinneman]

Oh, God, I can't unwatch is like. It sticks with you. Maybe it's scarring, but maybe it's wonderful. But unlike a lot of most stuff on television, it sticks with you.

[Alexis Soloski]

I will say. I mean, there is no one who commits to the bit harder. Like, there is no one working in TV right now who goes harder and who follows things through in ways that make me distinctly uncomfortable and never takes the easy option when a more elaborate option would work. I mean, in that sequence that you mentioned before, the horrific breastfeeding, there's also a very uncomfortable thing where he's supposed to get sexually excited. Oh, God. Anyway, but before that, when he's still the baby. They use, like a very sophisticated form of Japanese puppetry to like, puppet a giant mother. For him, he does the most.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And his tall father on stilts.

[Jason Zinneman]

His tall. Oh, my God.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I mean, it's all very eternal. Sunshine of the Spotless Minds, sort of like Kaufman esque.

[Jason Zinneman]

But it's also like. It's also about obsession. Like, there's. In that episode, there's. I also see it as like a parody of like the sort of obsessed literary theory that can find meaning in anything if you look at it long enough. Right. He has this theory about the reason Sully did this act of great bravery in landing this plane is tied to a song by Evanescence. And you believe it because I've felt this, Alexa. I'm sure you have. If you look closely enough at something and you get obsessed with it, sort of the act of criticism, the act of analysis takes on a life of its own. It has its own pleasure. And he mocks that and dramatizes it throughout.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There was something also in that episode and many other things, many other wild things happened throughout this second season that felt like he was connecting the entire conceit to the way that we're all sort of Reddit pilled now and everyone is just trying to, you know, figure out what the reason is and go deeper and deeper and deeper. And if you reread Sully's memoir over and over and over again, look for the holes and find these connections, then you can understand why something actually happened.

[Alexis Soloski]

Everything's a murder wall if you try hard enough, like, you can red string just about anything.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And just to be clear, this is an episode that starts not with Sully, but with Nathan Fielder building a replica of a dog owner's house. A dog owner who has cloned her dead dog to try to see if he can make that dog act like the dead dog by creating the circumstances under which the dead dog lived.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yes. No, it's. I mean, this is a series I've seen twice and so there's layers upon layers to go in. It's funny cause it's making fun of this, but it's also building something for you to analyze and unpack. It's structurally really clever and ambitious and also just insane.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Is this for everyone? Is it for anyone who's this show for you?

[Alexis Soloski]

It's for you. It's for you, Jason.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is literally, Nathan, for you.

[Jason Zinneman]

It is. It is. It is.

[Alexis Soloski]

When you were describing a kind of like, anxious, like, hyper intelligent person, like, trying to control the world and like, be normal. I was like, oh, I don't want.

[Jason Zinneman]

To control the world, Alexis. That's somebody else's job.

[Gilbert Cruz]

But.

[Jason Zinneman]

But no, it's a cult hit, which I think actually in the current culture, it works because it doesn't have as big a fan base as Star Wars. But the people who like Nathan Fielder are in the tank for Nathan Fielder, they're obsessed with it. And I do think it speaks to today in a way a lot of other work does not.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. All right. Before we get to our game segment, I just want to mention, obviously there's so many shows that came out over the past year or whatever. The crazy eligibility period for the Emmys actually is that we could not talk about adolescence. One of the most talked about shows of the past few months, the aforementioned the Bear Abbott, elementary Adults, which I know that both of you love. An FX show, the Late show with Stephen Colbert, the Last of Us Slow Horses, which I'm a super big fan of andor my favorite show of the year. I'll devote an episode to that separately down the line.

[Jason Zinneman]

We should have let Gilbert talk about Andor. I feel guilty about that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, but you didn't. So that's where we are. And we'll play our game right after this break.

[Ad Voice 1]

The US Electric grid is approaching a breaking point. As demand soars from data centers and home energy use, our aging infrastructure can't keep up. And the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready, powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn [e-mail] don't just imagine a better future.

[Ad Voice 2]

Start investing in one with better. Whether it's saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow, we help people in small businesses put their money to work. We automate to make saving simpler. We optimize to make investing smarter. We build innovative technology backed by financial experts. For anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better. So be invested in yourself. Be invested in your business. Be invested in better with betterment. Get [e-mail] Investing involves risk. Performance not guaranteed.

[Ad Voice 1]

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Join the 3.5 million employers worldwide that use indeed to hire great talent fast. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com NYT just go to indeed.com NYT right now and support our show by saying you heard about indee on this podcast. Indeed.com NYT terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome back. I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm here with Jason Zinneman and Alexis Solasky. And we are going to, as we do at the end of every Sunday special, play a game. Jason and Alexis. One of the defining features about this year in TV, the past 10 years of TV have been just how much of it there is. So in honor of that, we're going to play a giant game this week. We're going to channel surf through a bunch of essentially minigames. I'm going to explain the rules as we go along. You both have buzzers in front of you. The person who gets the most points wins.

[Jason Zinneman]

The goal is not to win, but to have fun. Is that right?

[Gilbert Cruz]

The goal is disgusting.

[Alexis Soloski]

Disgusting to do both.

[Jason Zinneman]

Are we in America?

[Gilbert Cruz]

You're going to win something, guys. So you do want to win.

[Jason Zinneman]

Is that right? This might change my calculus.

[Alexis Soloski]

What is our lovely prize?

[Gilbert Cruz]

You'll see at the end.

[Jason Zinneman]

Seems like it's not going to be good.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, Jason, you are corre. All right. Round one of our game is called Don't Cross the Streams. I'm going to name a streaming service and you tell me if it is real. Are you ready?

[Jason Zinneman]

Yes.

[Alexis Soloski]

Yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Friendly tv, Jason.

[Jason Zinneman]

Not real.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is real. It's focused on family programming. Opus Real. It is not real. It's not about the Catholic church.

[Alexis Soloski]

It just shows conclave 24 hours a day.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I would watch it. All right, next up, Psalm tv. Psalm tv, Jason.

[Jason Zinneman]

Psalm tv. That's not real. That's nonsense. It shouldn't be real.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is real.

[Jason Zinneman]

No, it's not.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I won't. It is real. Where's the proof? It's focused on wine and food programming. Somalia tv. I guess.

[Jason Zinneman]

This is nonsense.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Next. Is there a streaming service named Virgo?

[Jason Zinneman]

No, not real.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Not real. One point. Someone finally got a point. All right, next one. Howdy.

[Alexis Soloski]

Yes. Yes. Real.

[Jason Zinneman]

Real.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Alexis. It is real. Hey you, Jason.

[Jason Zinneman]

Real.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yes, it is real. Apparently it distributes NBC content around the world.

[Jason Zinneman]

Who knew there were all these streaming services?

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right. Hi ya, Jason.

[Alexis Soloski]

Sure.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yes. This is martial arts movies. What's up, Jason? No, no. It is not a streaming service. That's right.

[Jason Zinneman]

It's a hilarious catchphrase from the 90s.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I still say it. That was round one. Hopefully someone is keeping score. Cause I am not. Round two is called. The plot thickens. I'm going to give you a logline for a TV series from the past year, and you have to tell me what the show is. A brilliant septuagenarian attorney rejoins the workforce at a prestigious law firm.

[Alexis Soloski]

Matlock.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Alexis Matlock. Correct. An itinerant former military policeman solves crimes and metes out his own brand of street justice. Just.

[Jason Zinneman]

I don't watch tv.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Again, the answer is. Reacher. Reacher.

[Alexis Soloski]

Yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

A group of singles come to stay in a villa for a few weeks and have to couple up with one another. Alexis.

[Alexis Soloski]

Love Island.

[Jason Zinneman]

Love Island.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Love Island. Alexis.

[Alexis Soloski]

We can share.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right. Love Island. Alexis. Correct.

[Alexis Soloski]

Unlike the Love island, three friends navigate.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The journey from the complicated reality of friendship and life in their 30s to the even more complicated reality of life and friendship in their 50s. What is the show?

[Alexis Soloski]

Alexis was it? And just like that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Correct. Aw, you're on a roll here, Alexis. Find a one. In this round, a documentary crew searches for a new subject, finding a dying Midwestern paper and its publisher's efforts to revive. Jason.

[Jason Zinneman]

The paper.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The paper. Correct. Next and final round.

[Jason Zinneman]

Yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Emmy thing goes. The Emmys are tonight. That's why we're here. In honor of that, three pieces of Emmy trivia. What Hollywood legend, star of two major film franchises, is nominated for his first Emmy this year at the age of 83. Oh.

[Alexis Soloski]

Oh.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, Alexis. Oh.

[Alexis Soloski]

Harrison Ford.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Harrison Ford. Who is in TV shrinking. That is correct. All right, next question. None of the 16 nominees for outstanding Comedy Series and Outstanding Drama Series air on network tv with the sole exception of what Philadelphia set sitcom?

[Jason Zinneman]

I know the answer.

[Alexis Soloski]

I'm gonna say Abbott Elementary.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Abbott elementary.

[Jason Zinneman]

I'm trying to lose now.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, just tank it.

[Alexis Soloski]

Tank it, baby.

[Jason Zinneman]

I'm trying to get a perfect score of zero.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Final question. Only three actors are nominated for Emmys this year for portraying real people. All three actors appear on the same series based on a famous murder case from the 1990s. What is the name of that series? Alexis.

[Alexis Soloski]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is wrong. Oh, no is not.

[Alexis Soloski]

I was gonna say monster, but it's not that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The answer is monsters.

[Alexis Soloski]

Oh, it's monsters.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The Lyle and Eric Menendez Story.

[Alexis Soloski]

Okay.

[Gilbert Cruz]

How topical. That is the end of our quiz. We have to do a lot of adding up to see who won. I'm not exactly sure here.

[Alexis Soloski]

Fair. Well played. Fair.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Alexis, I believe you are the champion of this week's game.

[Alexis Soloski]

Oh, my God. I don't deserve it. I don't deserve it. I don't know what to do.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Someone bring in the prize.

[Alexis Soloski]

No, No, I don't want it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There have been three episodes of the Sunday special so far. We have awarded one of these in each episode. It is something we call the Gilby.

[Alexis Soloski]

Oh, thank you. You know, I thought I didn't deserve this, but looking at this small plastic trophy, I really feel that this is aligned with what I believe I des.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Given that my face is on it. I don't know how to feel about what you just said, but congratulations. Both of you were really game in coming on this week's episode to talk about some of our favorite TV from the past year. Jason, thanks so much.

[Jason Zinneman]

Good to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Alexis, thank you.

[Alexis Soloski]

An honor.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This episode was produced by Kate Lopresti with help from Alex Barron, Tina Antolini and Luke Van Der Plumer. We had production assistance from Franny Kartoth and Dalia Haddad. It was edited by Wendy Doerr. The Sunday special is engineered by Sophia Landman, original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Elisheba Itup and Diane Wong. Special thanks to Paula Schumann. Thanks for listening, everyone. Next week, I'll be talking with some of my colleagues from the food desk about the 50 best restaurants in America. America. See you then.

[Ad Voice 1]

This podcast is supported by Comedy Central's the Daily show, which is finally back with brand new episodes with Ronny Chang, Josh Johnson, Jordan Klepper, Michael Costa, Desi Lydic, and every Monday, Jon Stewart. It's the most hosted show in late night. And it's a good thing, too, because in these uncertain times, one thing is for certain. This much news needs this many hosts. Comedy Central's the Daily show new weeknights at 11 on Comedy Central and streaming next day on Paramount.