Sunday Special: What Makes a Restaurant Great?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily Sunday Special: “What Makes a Restaurant Great?”

Podcast: The Daily
Host: Gilbert Cruz (with Priya Krishna & Brett Anderson)
Date: September 21, 2025
Episode Theme: Exploring what makes a restaurant truly great, through the lens of the New York Times’ "50 Best Restaurants in America" list, with deep dives on the selection process, dining trends, memorable meals, and the future of restaurants.

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Overview of the Episode

In this special episode, Gilbert Cruz is joined by NYT food writers Priya Krishna and Brett Anderson to pull back the curtain on how the NYT’s annual “50 Best Restaurants in America” list is compiled. They delve into the behind-the-scenes work, the shifting dining landscape, what makes a restaurant memorable, and the subjective nature of food criticism. The conversation journeys through research, scouting, local food culture, the impact of atmosphere, industry challenges, and exciting new trends, all with a blend of humor and candor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How the 50 Best List Gets Made

[02:16 - 04:36]

• The nationwide list began 5 years ago, post-pandemic, as a way for the NYT to guide friends (and readers) to places worth visiting if coming to the US.
• The initial version was informal—reporters (mainly Priya & Brett) flew across the country, exploring regions on the fly.
• Now, writers are assigned specific regions or cities, each maintaining year-long spreadsheets and scouting local coverage to build and refine a shortlist before even stepping foot in restaurants.

"Scouting Texas is like scouting five different states, essentially." — Priya Krishna [04:24]

Process Details:

• “Scouting” means visiting as many places as possible daily, coordinating with locals, taking recommendations, occasionally changing plans mid-day.
• Both rely on spreadsheets, local tips, news, and social media—today’s abundance of information aids their process and sharpens their pre-visit impressions.

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2. Scouting Techniques & Eating Routines

[06:00 - 09:11]

• Typical research trips involve “two dinners, two lunches” a day; sometimes even more.
• Brett describes using “three and a half meals” per day as a framework—includes quick “toe touch” visits to assess atmosphere and quality.
• Flexibility is key; a quick taste might turn into a surprise discovery (the “toe touch” sometimes results in last-minute itinerary changes).

“I always like to try to visit a place, kind of do a toe touch... sometimes I'll cancel my Friday reservation based on what happens on my toe touch.” — Brett Anderson [07:37]

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3. What Makes a Restaurant Stand Out?

[09:56 - 15:55]

• Pre-visit work includes analyzing menus for originality and avoiding filler dishes (“burrata salad” and “cacio e pepe” are overused).
• Instagram and TikTok help set expectations for environment, food presentation, and vibes.
• On arrival, the key is how well a restaurant fulfills its own vision and what it brings to the local scene—success is measured against both intent and context.
• The team strives to step outside personal biases, thinking about what makes a place beloved to locals and its role in the community.

“Is the restaurant succeeding on its own terms? Is it delivering what it’s promising?” — Brett Anderson [12:06]
“There’s this idea that restaurants outside NY or CA are ‘graded on a curve.’ I disagree entirely. It bums me out.” — Brett Anderson [13:15]

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4. The Subjectivity of Taste and Criticism

[15:24 - 18:38]

• Reviewers set aside dietary restrictions and preferences, striving to “learn the language” of any dish, even ones they don’t naturally enjoy.
• Priya's mantra comes from a friend:

  “A food you don’t love is just a language you haven’t learned yet.” — Priya Krishna [16:16]

• When ordering, they seek signature or chef-excited items (rather than just what’s popular), always questing for the “why” behind menu decisions.

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5. The Role of Non-Food Elements

[18:54 - 24:35]

• Atmosphere is crucial and goes beyond fancy décor; it includes staff attitude, design intention, and personal warmth.
• Memorable spots include tiny kebab shops or chaotic snack bars—energy, scrappiness, and a distinctive spirit often beat out glossy, expensive spaces.
• “Atmosphere is not just a fancy dining room. A tiny taqueria can have atmosphere.” — Priya Krishna [21:33]
• Economic challenges—rising costs—have led to more creativity, both in scrappy, DIY operations and in flexible models like the all-day café.

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6. The Subjectivity and Stakes of ‘Best’

[24:35 - 28:45]

• Best is inherently subjective; NYT critics are aware that lists inflate customer expectations, leading to heightened praise and occasional disappointment.
• Both Priya and Brett emphasize that reviews aren’t a guarantee of transcendence. Restaurants can (and will) have off nights.
• The “NYC 100” and numbered lists bring even more scrutiny—people struggle to choose their own #1 when challenged.

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7. Exciting Trends & Restaurant Evolutions

[31:45 - 49:40]

• Legacy restaurants reinventing themselves:
  • At Emeril’s (New Orleans), chef Emeril Lagasse’s son EJ transformed the icon into a high-level tasting menu spot—an example of meaningful succession and evolution in the restaurant world.

  “I think it is, frankly, an early example of what we might start to see in the culture...We don’t really know what the model is for succession with restaurants like this.” — Brett Anderson [34:58]

• Rise of All Day Cafés:
  • Priya spotlights Houston’s Chop & Block (West African), a model of daytime and nighttime flexibility, counter service, and outstanding suya.

  “Having good suya is like being dead and being jolted back to life.” — Priya Krishna [38:59]

• Economic divides & creativity:
  • Food scenes now include both lavishly funded, designed-out spots and super-scrappy, low-budget gems—even in cities like Austin.
  • Tiny, alleyway shops like Mercado sin nombre (Austin, with masa “Twinkies”) and places like KC Turkey Leg Man (Kansas City, KS) evoke care, hospitality, and distinctiveness outside of traditional/posh settings.

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8. What Critics Want More & Less Of

[49:40 - 53:40]

• Brett: Wants restaurants to let customers call them—no phone number or impersonal apps create barriers.

  “It mystifies me...service can start on the phone.” — Brett Anderson [51:20]

• Priya: Less “Epcot-ification”—restaurants mimicking the look & menu of a place/cuisine without authenticity; too many copycats, not enough originality.

  “Don't give me the simulacra of the thing.” — Priya Krishna [53:14] "There is such a monoculture with restaurants, and I think a lot of it is because of social media." — Priya Krishna [53:28]

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9. Lighthearted Conclusion: Restaurant Dish Quiz

[55:31 - 63:29]

• Brett and Priya compete in “Dish or Debt”—guessing real menu items from famed restaurants for laughs and bragging rights.
• Brett emerges victorious, receiving a whimsical trophy, “The Gilby.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the work ethic of scouting:

  “Every meal that I’m not eating out is a wasted opportunity to do discovery.” — Priya Krishna [06:06]

• On the soul of great restaurants:

  “You want to give the restaurant the best shot to possibly do that [communicate its vision].” — Priya Krishna [16:41]

• On the atmosphere:

  “A fancy dining room isn’t atmosphere. A tiny taqueria can have atmosphere.” — Priya Krishna [21:33]

• On personal biases:

  “It is our job to be able to evaluate all sorts of different things that maybe also might not be the kind of place we would go in our free time.” — Brett Anderson [14:50]

• On “Epcot-ified” spots:

  “I’m just sort of tired of it. Just give me the thing. Don’t give me like the simulacra of the thing.” — Priya Krishna [53:14]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:16] The genesis of the list & method
• [06:00] Scouting, eating routines, “toe touch” method
• [09:56] How critics appraise menus on arrival—what stands out
• [12:04] Brett’s “algorithm” for judging restaurants
• [15:24] Approaching unfamiliar foods and signature menu items
• [18:54] Valuing the non-food experience (atmosphere, spirit, and staff)
• [24:35] The impact and subjectivity of best-of lists
• [31:45] Exciting new/renewed restaurant trends
• [41:49] Mercado sin nombre and “scrappy” food gems
• [49:49] What critics wish for less of in the industry

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Conclusion

This episode is a delicious, behind-the-curtain glide through the work and joy (and indigestion) of top-tier food criticism. Priya Krishna and Brett Anderson—energetic, thoughtful, and deeply knowledgeable—demystify how the best restaurants are scouted, explored, and celebrated, while refusing to lose sight of community, authenticity, and surprise. For anyone curious about how the sausage (or masa Twinkie) gets made, this episode is essential listening.

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For listeners: Even after this robust discussion, both critics encourage you to chase what excites you most, remembering that “best” is always in the eater’s eye (and stomach).

Transcript

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[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome, everyone, to the Daily Sunday Special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. And every Sunday, I'm here talking with my colleagues about culture of all sorts, which often means movies and TV and books and stuff like that. But this week, wonderfully, deliciously, we're talking about food. So this month, the Times released a list of the 50 best restaurants in America. And it's an amazing thing that the reporters and critics and editors in our food department did. They crisscrossed the country and wrote about all sorts of places. Casual, fancy, big, small. And somehow they came up with this list that represents the state of modern dining in America. Luckily, today I have two of those people here with me to talk about that list. Priya Krishna, who wrote a lot about Texas for this project. It's where she's from. Hello, Priya.

[Priya Krishna]

Hi.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And then Brett Anderson, who is based in New Orleans, one of my favorite food cities. Brett, happy to have you here.

[Brett Anderson]

It's great to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, so you all on the food desk have been doing this list for, I don't know, five years now. Five years?

[Priya Krishna]

Really? This is the fifth one.

[Gilbert Cruz]

2001, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25.

[Brett Anderson]

I have to do the math.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So you've been doing this list for five years now, in addition to smaller but equally impactful sort of city lists, you know, New Orleans, Portland, Oregon, New York City. How the hell do you actually do this? Something this big, are you splitting this country up by region? How long does this take? I want to know all the details.

[Brett Anderson]

Well, it started five years ago when we were coming out of the Pandemic. Brian Gallagher, who's one of our editors, who's also my editor, had this idea that we should do a restaurant list, which we'd never done before, a nationwide restaurant list, as far as I recall it. I remember he told. I did not hear this from him. But I heard this from one of our colleagues, Kim Severson, who said that Brian explained what the purpose of the list was to her as. This is where you would tell a friend to go if they're coming to the country for the weekend.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Brett Anderson]

Or something like that.

[Priya Krishna]

Which I. Yeah, no, I do remember that.

[Brett Anderson]

Which I kind of feels right. And I don't. You know, I think Priya and I have always have kind of different ideas about how we approach things. I mean, I see the list as being a. You know, a list of what we think are the 50 best places, the 50 places we're most excited about right now. I mean, that was the original sort of framing, and it's what I sort of think of it as being. But I also see it as a story. It's a mosaic of what's great about dying in America, you know, at this given time, as best as we can assess it.

[Priya Krishna]

What I remember of that first year is Brett and I, we were both coming out of the pandemic freshly vaccinated, and Brian was like, we're doing this list. Who wants to travel? And Brett and I were like. We put our hands up, and everyone else on the desk was like, yeah, we're good. So that first year.

[Brett Anderson]

The first year was a little bit.

[Priya Krishna]

Like, Brett and I were, like, running around the United States. Like, I was Oklahoma to Ohio to Illinois. I was like, to Santa Fe.

[Brett Anderson]

It's a little bit more formalized now, but, yeah, that first year was just like, you know, you build the. Build the plane once you're in the air kind of thing. But now we, you know, we do sort of divide. Most writers have their regions and their cities that we ask, you know, that we're in charge of, so to speak. And it sort of flows from that in terms of the reporting. Right?

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we've done a much better job dividing it up. I remember the first few years, what I did not realize is that scouting Texas is like scouting five. Five different states, essentially.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah.

[Priya Krishna]

I mean, like, to scout Houston alone requires me to be there for at least a week, if not 10 days.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Get into this. What. When you say scouting, what is that even for, you know, a major metropolis like Houston, what does that look like.

[Priya Krishna]

For the average person? It might mean eating at one restaurant a day for dinner for me, and I think for Brett as well, it's like you are cramming in as many meals as you possibly can every day. And so even before we get to these places. Brad, I'm curious what your process Is. But, like, I basically spend the entire year with, like, a spreadsheet where I have, like, every major Texas city listed out other cities. This year, I was also serving as the restaurant critic in New York, so I had a separate spreadsheet for New York. And. And I am talking to local food writers, talking to people I trust on the ground, reading all the local newspapers and noting down anything that feels remotely interesting. And you're just spending the year refining and refining and refining that list until you land in the place. I land in Houston. And when you land there, you need to have, like, mapped out. You know, I'm going here on this day. Here on this day. Now, restaurants are often closed on Mondays and Tuesdays, so you gotta figure out what you're gonna do on Monday and Tuesday. Maybe there's.

[Brett Anderson]

Stay home is usually the answer.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Cleanse yourself.

[Priya Krishna]

But, like, I'm of the. Of the opinion that, like, you know, every meal that I'm not eating out is, like, a wasted opportunity to do discovery. Why would I go eat a sweet green salad when I can go check out that classic barbecue joint, you know, 10 minutes away? And once you get there, like, once I get to Houston, oftentimes you're eating with locals. You're telling them where else you're going, and you're kind of refining your itinerary as you go. Like, I've literally, like, canceled a reservation for, like, the next few hours while I'm at my first dinner and changed it to something else. And so, like, you just have to.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Be, like, incredibly, two dinners a night.

[Priya Krishna]

Usually it's two dinners.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Two dinners, two lunches. Yeah. What are you.

[Brett Anderson]

I mean, I do this. Like, what you described is. Cause this is interesting. Cause we haven't really seen.

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah. I feel like I've never heard about your process.

[Brett Anderson]

You know, I'm making the list all year long. My list, my personal list for every city. When I go to a place, I have this sort of framework in my head where each day I think of it as three and a half meals, which most people would call four.

[Priya Krishna]

What's the half meal?

[Brett Anderson]

And incidentally, doesn't include breakfast, which I also eat. But, you know, basically, I try to do, like, start with thinking. If I can do a day where I'm having two full lunches and one dinner, or one full lunch and two full dinners, and then the half is like, I always like to try to visit a place, kind of do a toe touch. If it's just like, grabbing a taco.

[Priya Krishna]

I do that too.

[Brett Anderson]

Or, you know, sitting at the bar, and then that's the meal that might cause me to adjust my schedule.

[Priya Krishna]

You know, that's happened to me before.

[Brett Anderson]

It'll be like, you know, let's say I'm coming into town on a Tuesday, and I'm gonna be going to this one place on a Friday, and I have a certain sense about it, and so I want to visit it, you know, I'll visit it on Tuesday, you know, sometimes. And sometimes I'll cancel my Friday reservation based on what happens on my toe touch.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What I got.

[Priya Krishna]

Sometimes you go to the toe touch place, and you're like, I'm only gonna get one taco. The one taco is incredible. Suddenly the toe touch, and then it's two hours later.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I mean, have you ever been able. Yes. How often are you able to hold yourself back? Like, well, I just thought I was going to have that delicious salad I had last time.

[Priya Krishna]

Like, most. Most often for me, the toe touch is a toe touch. But I would say, like, two out of the 10. I really like that term toe touch, by the way. I'm gonna.

[Brett Anderson]

Yeah. Like, you know, I just want to breathe the air.

[Priya Krishna]

Totally. You just want to, like, get the vibe. Like, is there any promise to what this place is doing? But every so often, like, I will go somewhere speculatively, eat, order a few dishes, and those few dishes just rock. And I'm like, all right, I'm in.

[Brett Anderson]

Yeah, we're coming back. Like, I, you know, and that's how I do it, you know, and then often, sometimes it'll, you know, every once in a while, it'll be like, oh, no, I need to do five meals if I want to make this trip worthwhile. But I really try not to do that because I don't, you know, the last meal is getting. I feel sorry for the restaurant.

[Priya Krishna]

Okay, yes, yes.

[Brett Anderson]

That is the fifth place. They really try to prevent that.

[Priya Krishna]

But to the converse of that is you're at your fifth meal. You're like, I could not possibly eat anything more. I'm so disgustingly full. And that meal makes you want to create additional space in your stomach. Like, it's also a great tell. It's like, if the meal is so good, it. It. It's. You don't even mind that this is, you know, you're 50 meal a day happens to.

[Brett Anderson]

And that. And that can be an amazing. You're. You're right. It's sort of like, whoa. I was like, the opposite of hungry, you know, when I got here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I don't understand how you have. You how either of you have so much space in your stomach. I want to ask you about the actual. You sit down and what are you looking for?

[Priya Krishna]

I feel like that has to start before you even get to the restaurant. Like, I feel like I've now developed a pretty good sense of I can look at a menu and know, like, I can do some. The initial line of cutting based off of, like, all right, this menu kind of feels like I've seen it before. I don't really see anything that's jumping out at me.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And what. So what jumps out at you? Let me. Let's dig into that a little bit. Is it just a lack of or as you say, this looks like three other places I've been to. When you see something that is truly different and new.

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah, when I. Like, when I see dishes I haven't seen before. When I don't see the kind of filler dishes that I know restaurants put on the menu because they're like. Like a burrata salad.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Brett Anderson]

Same, same. And I love a burrata salad, I should say, but yeah.

[Priya Krishna]

And I love a cacio e pepe. It's not like an odd. Like, if you have burrata, it's not like you're done. It's over. But it's like, you can kind of tell, like, oh, is this restaurant pandering? Or they trying to go lowest common denominator, or do they actually have something to say?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, you guys are laughing. The laughter of people who have to look at hundreds of menus a year.

[Priya Krishna]

We know. We. I mean, we really do. I just constantly. I also really like to go on Instagram and see what the food looks like. Like, I feel like I can just get a good sense seeing, like, what's the vibe of the place? How are they plating the food? Does it. You know, are they trying to do some crazy plating that looks really silly and goofy? I don't know. I feel like there's just, like, a lot of. We now have access to so much information.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Absolutely.

[Priya Krishna]

About a restaurant before we even go there. I actually find even those, like, stupid little tiktoks that are like, come with me to have breakfast at Emma in Houston. Like, I find it very helpful to have, like, a video of the place to look at, too.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So you start maybe in a way now that if you were doing this 20 years ago, you would not have been able to. You have a sense of the menu. You have a sense of the. What it looks like, what some of the plates look like. You make the decision to go There you get there. What next?

[Priya Krishna]

What do you do, Brett?

[Brett Anderson]

Well, the way I think about it is, first of all, is the restaurant succeeding on its own terms? You know, like, is it delivering what it is promising through its sort of, through its aesthetics, through its price point, you know, through the style. Like a barbecue place obviously is gonna. You're gonna expect something different of it than you are a fine French restaurant. Right. And. And then I run the experience through what I call my algorithm.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I want to hear about this.

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah, tell me about your algorithm.

[Brett Anderson]

I mean, it's sort of like, you know, every meal you eat creates this, adds to the context to which you sort of experience every subsequent meal. Right. I mean, that's the way it is with books. That's the way it is with music. And so I run it through that. You know, how good is this compared to restaurants that are vaguely similar or very similar to this? How much does it succeed in those terms? And then I also think you need to factor in stuff particularly. I'm like a child of flyover country. I've never lived here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Here being New York, being New York.

[Brett Anderson]

And I think that you need to be reasonable about. There's this idea in food journalism that restaurants that aren't in New York or California are graded on a quote unquote curve. Right, Right. And maybe they are, but I think that another way to. That's a little bit coastally elitist friendly for me.

[Priya Krishna]

I disagree with that entirely.

[Brett Anderson]

It kind of bums me out. And I think you can just be reasonable about how the reality of how trends travel and where they travel and how fast they travel and be realistic about the idea that something can be fresh in one location that might feel derivative in another. And, you know, I mean, we mentioned these dishes that you sort of like, you know, I get people eye rolling burrata salads in New York and stuff. Like, there's a lot of places where that's not redundant, it's not omnipresent. Right. And I think you need to factor that in. And then there's one other thing. When I'm thinking about whether or not I'm going to try to recommend a restaurant for this list, and sometimes you don't succeed. But if I'm gonna make a push for it, when I'm in the restaurant, I try to think about what would it be like if I was from here and I already loved it, why would I love it? Right. Like, that's a way to think about, I think, you know, restaurants mean something to smaller communities than they do to Bigger communities. And I try to see it through that frame to see if that blows off any of my biases, you know, or makes me think differently about the place that I'm in, you know, writ large. The town, the region, the state. You know, what does this. If I lived here, how would this restaurant fit into my life? And that's the way I've learned to sort of teach myself, to also be able to judge restaurants that might not be totally my cup of tea, but they're someone's cup of tea. And I feel like it's our job to be able to evaluate all sorts of different things that maybe also might not be the kind of place that we would go in our free time.

[Priya Krishna]

You know, I. I actually feel that as food writers, we are not allowed to have dietary restrictions. Truly, I think we're not allowed to say, like, I don't. Like, I won't eat X. Because it is truly our job to, like, understand why people find things delicious. So when I sit down at a restaurant and I am ordering, if I see something that I don't usually gravitate towards, if I'm, like, ordering for myself, I will order it. If I see something that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What's an example of something that falls into this category?

[Priya Krishna]

Recently, I am not big on, like, the giant smothered pork chop.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Priya Krishna]

But like, if I. But if I, like, spit it, it's.

[Gilbert Cruz]

10Am when we're recording this, and I'm already.

[Priya Krishna]

But if I. But if I, like, see it. My friend Chris always says, a food you don't love is just a language you haven't learned yet. So now when I, like, see a giant smothered pork chop on a menu, I will order it because I'm like, I want to learn the language of that giant smothered pork chop. And I felt the same way. I didn't like martinis. I just, like, subjected myself to tons of martinis until I learned the language of martinis. But, like, I.

[Brett Anderson]

Hard work.

[Priya Krishna]

But, like, I truly feel that, like, when you go to a restaurant, it is your job to understand exactly what Brett said. Why did they choose to put these things on the menu? And, you know, what are they trying to communicate here? And you want to, like, give the restaurant the best shot to possibly do that. So when I arrive at a restaurant, I've already done a bunch of research. I already kind of have a. I've, like, you know, read write ups. If I already have a sense of like, all right, have signature dishes emerged that people really like, I will get those you know, there are certain, like, touch points I'll always order. Like, I'll always order the, the bread service. Always very curious, like, how a restaurant does. Does bread. I will always, if there's a pasta on the menu, I will always order it just because I'm curious. And I, I'm so sorry. You're gluten free. I just love pasta so much.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Pasta is great. I would eat it every day if I could.

[Brett Anderson]

I am not the gluten free person, just to be clear.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sorry.

[Priya Krishna]

And then, like, I never ask the server, what do you like? Or what's popular? Because I usually like, I don't, I don't really care about one person's opinion and I don't want the lowest comment on dominator dishes. Usually what's most popular are those lowest common denominator dishes. I'll ask, like, what is the chef really excited about right now? Like, what? And, and usually that will. In. In, like, that will cause a completely different response. Like, they'll start to say what's popular and then they'll be like, oh, well, chef actually just added this, like, hamachi collar. And it's kind of crazy. It's got this crazy story and here's what. And then you kind of start the conversation. But I have genuine, genuinely found that after like a dozen years of doing this, like, what I'm excited about and what the chef's excited about, I feel like often, you know, it's. It's often like the things that are not like the things you've seen everywhere.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Should we be asking servers different questions? I feel like they probably.

[Priya Krishna]

I think we should, I don't think we should be asking servers what's popular. What do you like? Yeah, Like, I just don't think those are useful questions. Yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So let me. I, I'm curious about all the non food things because I feel like we could talk about food all day, but, Brett, we could. Yeah. When you talk about walking into that place in Algiers, in New Orleans, and having the journey there be part of the experience, or you talk about the idea inherent in this particular South Asian cuisine, or one of your other colleagues talked about the fact that flowers are in a ketchup bucket or something, what are all the non food elements that you are taking into account and how do you balance those against each other?

[Brett Anderson]

Well, you mentioned a place called St. Clair in New Orleans, which is. I really care about atmosphere. I mean, there is this idea. I think it's like the food is paramount. It can overcome everything, including a boring space. And that Is true. But. But when I think about where I'm gonna eat when I'm not on the job, I think about two things. I think about how much do I wanna spend? And I think about where do I wanna be, where do I wanna spend two hours? What space do I wanna spend that time in? Who do I wanna be with that are not just my guests? That's what I think about when I'm making my own personal decisions about dining out that aren't on the expense account. And so in that regard, I think space really does matter. And I think that I really care about restaurants where it looks like there's some craft has been devoted into transforming whatever that space is into a place to dine. St. Clair in New Orleans is a beautiful example of it. It's, you know, it's near the levee. It's on the other side of the river from the French Quarter. It feels like you've gone into the country. It's very sort of tasteful in a way that's not alienating. You know, it feels welcoming and homey and all that kind of thing. And, you know, I can't say there's like 50% atmosphere, 50% food, but atmosphere can overcome a B minus dish or two if there's a dishes, you know what I'm saying? And the atmosphere is not just the design. The atmosphere is also what. How the. How the restaurant carries itself, how the staff carries itself. Yeah. Are they scripted or are they sort of just confident enough in what they do and what they're serving to. To just be themselves?

[Priya Krishna]

I think it's important to note here that atmosphere is not just like a fancy dining room, like a, like tiny taqueria off the side of the road can have atmosphere. You know, I went to like, a kebab shop in the suburbs of Phoenix, Kebab Grill, and go. And it's just. I think it was smaller than this room that we are in now, but the servers were just so excited for. For every customer. And then there were just these swords of kebabs in the front, really, just like that you could just ogle at. As soon as you. You walk in these, like, swords of meat and peppers and onions, and between that and just like, how excited this man was to. To. To grill you a kebab, I was like, this is. This is my favorite restaurant in America.

[Brett Anderson]

I've been jealous of that restaurant ever since. You found you got. You got it that good of a kebab.

[Priya Krishna]

But, like. No, but really, like, I feel like, you know, the, The Stuff beyond the food are. It's. It's not like we're looking for specific things. You know, we live in an era now of the, like, multimillion dollar restaurant with the design budget, where everything is branded, where the cocktails come with ice imprinted with the Restaura restaurants logo. Like, that's all nice, but, like, that's not what we mean when we say atmosphere. It's like, yeah, it's like a place you want to be, a place where you feel welcomed. A place that has a really distinctive style, that's not trying to follow trends. And, you know, increasingly I am so attracted to. It is so, so expensive to run a restaurant right now, not just in the coastal cities, but like, you know, scouting in Texas. Like, the cost of living in Texas has skyrocketed in places like Austin and Dallas and Houston. And so the restaurants this year that some of the restaurants I felt most charmed by were sort of the scrappy restaurants. The restaurants with this, like, DIY attitude and spirit that were just kind of like making it work. But it was like, in that scrappy attitude that it just felt like such a, like, spirited and energized restaurant. An example of that is Ha's Snack bar in New York. I mean, that restaurant, tiny place, it's so. It's so small. Anthony, the chef is cooking off of like, two portable stove tops in a combi oven. That's pretty much it. Sadie, who is his partner, is, you know, baking a pie from scratch for dessert and then just like running around pouring wine. That's all just like, you know, in this small bucket. And there is something about that, like, kind of like tiny, scrappy, chaotic spirit that makes the restaurant come alive. And in a big dining room with, like, sumptuous banquettes, I don't think it would be as effective.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So I have to say, after reading your list, I wanted to try one. And I was able to go to lunch at one of the 50 best restaurants in America. And I have to say, it was fine. And it made me think, when you put together a list like this, what do you think about the fact that you're raising people's expectations in your mind? They're going to go into one of these restaurants just thinking, this is one of the best. I need to have an amazing experience here.

[Priya Krishna]

Oh, like, I mean, the lists are subjective, but you're absolutely right. When a place goes on the list, people have all sorts of expectations. Every single time this list comes out, my DMS are filled. I don't know if this is true of you. My DMs are just filled with people going to these restaurants, and I will never hear any in between. It's either, this was the best meal I ever had. Changed my life. Thank you for recommending X Place. Or like, so and so was so mediocre. Why would you put it on this list? Like, I do feel like we're sort of creating these really sky high expectations of a place. But, like, that's sort of something I try to keep in mind when I'm working on the list. Like, what are actually the places that I'm like, breathlessly excited to tell people about? Or I'm like, oh, my God, this restaurant is so awesome. I, like, need to tell you about it. If you're going to Houston, if you're going to Austin, like, I can't stop thinking about this place. And, you know, sometimes the place that I love and I can't stop thinking about that I'm obsessed with, like, someone else goes to and they're like, it was just fine. But, like, I do think we live in a world where, like, the best. We're obsessed with the best.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I mean, we live in the age of the Internet. You need to put best on a list. Even if, as Brett said, it is the restaurants that you're most excited about, which maybe more directly reflects the sort of spirit of it. But we all understand that best is currency.

[Brett Anderson]

Yeah. And it's subjective. And you know that that person who you sort of describe in the form of you. But there's a. You know, that is something you get when you write about restaurants for a living is people saying, like, you know, I didn't agree with you at all. Like, my, you know, my experience was like, I thought that was super meh. And, you know, I always just say it's like, well, I'm sorry, it sounds like we had different experiences.

[Priya Krishna]

Totally.

[Brett Anderson]

You know, I mean, that happens with restaurants. Restaurants have off night when you, like, Priya did the restaurant review job here in New York for a good stretch there. And you go to restaurants three times. At least. That's why. Because there can be a second visit where it really drops off. And that's really important when you're trying to characterize. When you're trying to write a story that gives a reader the best possible impression you can about what a restaurant is like day in and day out on this national list. Because we've been doing it five years now, and we return to markets again and again. I feel a little better about it. I'm writing A lot about places that I've been to more than once now.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Got it.

[Brett Anderson]

Because I've returned the markets and because I've developed this system of, like, the toe touch and the, you know, like.

[Priya Krishna]

You can get the Brett algorithm.

[Brett Anderson]

Yeah. You can get to them more. And I, you know, I also just. People have this expect. They think that a review is a promise, you know, of. Of transcendence, I think, and sometimes. And like. But it's not, you know, and I try to explain that to people when they confront me. It's like, you know, look, I. I wrote about what I loved about that restaurant in as clear terms as I possibly could have. And I'm sorry that, like, you know, we dis. We had a different experience of that. We disagree. And that's gonna happen all the time.

[Priya Krishna]

I will say that there was, like, there's a different pressure doing the NYC 100 and naming a number one restaurant. I feel like that's where I feel it the most and where I get the most.

[Gilbert Cruz]

When something is numbered, people will literally.

[Priya Krishna]

Come up to me and be like, how could Sema possibly be the number one restaurant in New York? And I'm like, okay, well, what would your number one restaurant be? And they're just like. It's like a minute full silence.

[Brett Anderson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Priya Krishna]

It's hard, isn't it?

[Brett Anderson]

Yeah, that's hard.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Not so easy, is it? We're going to take a brief break, and when we return, Priya and Brett are going to talk about some of the trends that they're most excited about, as well as a couple of the things they would like to see less of. We'll be right back.

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[Brett Anderson]

Recently we asked about how you share your New York Times account, and you had a lot to say about New York Times games. I need my own New York Times.

[Priya Krishna]

Login because my sister is so much worse at the crossword than I am. I Discover that he's already finished Connections that day. And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day.

[Brett Anderson]

It doesn't let us play the same games as each other.

[Priya Krishna]

I play the Stoku.

[Brett Anderson]

I do the crossword.

[Priya Krishna]

I do the spelling bee.

[Brett Anderson]

I do the wordle.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Please help. My kids want to be able to play wordle. But with the wordle bot, we would.

[Brett Anderson]

Love to to be able to have our own puzzles.

[Priya Krishna]

I love New York Times games. I want to be able to play my own games.

[Brett Anderson]

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[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, so we have talked about a lot about how this list comes together. Came together. I think it's time to switch gears and I want to hear a little bit about what the two of you are excited about, some trends that you have noticed as you've traveled across the country. Let's start with the positive and then we'll talk about some stuff that maybe is a little bit played out. Brett, you live in New Orleans. You've been a food critic there for, for quite a while. For us before that for the Times Picayune, one of the places that you wrote about was Emerils. I saw you sort of respond kindly to someone in the comments of this piece who said, how can you put Emerils on there? This is a place that all the tourists go to. This is ridiculous. And you pointed out, as you sort of wrote about in your write up, that it has a new owner, someone in the family, but a new owner. They've really tried to reinvent it. Love for you to talk about that place and what it means about, you know, the potential for older restaurants to still be new.

[Brett Anderson]

Well, Emeril's is I, you know, I think a lot of people probably know who Emeril Lagasse is, at least people of my generation. You know, he was, I would argue, really the first true celebrity chef out of a restaurant, you know, who got big on cable, had his, you know, multi platform media star. And Emeril's was his first restaurant in New Orleans, which he opened 35 years ago. And, and in that case is like a very kind of important historically culturally historical restaurant in the United States and always has been in New Orleans. It has been a place that attracts a lot of tourists, which in New Orleans doesn't, isn't, isn't evidence that it's bad. I mean, every restaurant attracts tourists in New Orleans. If they stay open like it's. We're in the tourism business now. I mean, it's just how it is. Right. But in any event, what changed at Emeril's recently is that his son, who goes by ej, took it over a couple of years ago and he turned it into a very much more expensive tasting menu restaurant with like a lot more ambitious food, much less seating. It's a much more sedate place than it used to be. And you know, I went there, I have to say, with sort of suspicious mainly cause I should point out that EJ's 22 years old. You know, that's a lot to.

[Priya Krishna]

He's big on social media, but, you.

[Brett Anderson]

Know, he's a young guy and I'm an old guy. You know, it's like that's a lot of responsibility for an inexperienced restaurant professional. And I, you know, I made sure to go there twice to make sure that it, you know, I believed what I believe about it, which is that it's an exceptional restaurant. They're cooking at a really, really high level. If you are someone who travels the country and world and really likes a tasting menu meal, a sort of a Michelin starred style meal, they will, they will satisfy your expectations for what you would expect to get at a restaurant like that. And I just think that's a really interesting new development. And you know, and furthermore, I think that it is, I think, an early example of what we might start to see in the culture. You know, Emeril is part of this generation that really helped define what restaurants are in the United States. This sort of auteur occupied places, the chefs with a personality who, you know, I'm not saying just famous people, but chefs is sort of the anchor and brand of the restaurant, which could be a small farm to table place in a very small place. Right. But they all sort of are modeled on this sort of Chez Panisse era of restaurants. Well, those guys are all still around and they're not getting any younger. And we don't really know what the model is for succession with restaurants like this. Right. We don't know what happens to Danielle here when Daniel Ballou goes away. Right. Like there's no path. And I think this, you know, Emeril's is sort of, you know, the obvious thing is to pass it along. If you have someone with the ability to pick up that mantle. I mean, it's very convenient that EJ is quite talented and also named Emerl.

[Priya Krishna]

It's like Emeril thought about this.

[Brett Anderson]

Yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah.

[Brett Anderson]

You Know, it is, you know, that is helpful from a branding perspective. And I really look forward to, you know, to frankly seeing how his career develops and to seeing kind of what they do next.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Can I ask you just to. To describe one dish from this place? I think I'd love for listeners to just sort of picture it in their mind.

[Brett Anderson]

Well, meals there start with this spread of canapes, you know, little, small, little bites of things that you get on the. You know, the idea is that you're getting something for free, but of course you're not getting. But it's, you know, it's sort of part of the aesthetic of a certain kind of restaurant, you know, fancy sort of French derived place. And there they do this spread of very, very small signature New Orleans dishes, you know, including like a po boy. And I'm holding up. I know this is radio, but, you know, about the size of my thumb.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You know, you have a normal size.

[Brett Anderson]

Thumb and I have a normal size thumb. I'm a bigger person, but I have a normal sized thumb.

[Gilbert Cruz]

How do you make a poboy that small?

[Brett Anderson]

Well, you know, they have a joke they tell at the side of the table. It's like, you should see the size of the people that make them, you know. Wow. Which. I like a joke.

[Priya Krishna]

Me too.

[Brett Anderson]

I like a joke. But it's a absolutely delicious one bite of a po'. Boy. You know, it gives you every little bit of crunch you get with a real po' boy. It gives you a little bit of mayo, the little bit of tomato, you know, and it's this, you know, it's this beginning of the meal that sort of tells you, like, all right, you know, like you guys got some game and you're having fun and, you know, they do something that might seem a little obvious and then really kind of stick a, you know, they set the hook there and, you know, and it stays that good through the whole meal.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Priya, what are you seeing that you are particularly excited about?

[Priya Krishna]

One big thing, and Brett and I have talked about this a lot, is the return triumphantly of the All Day Cafe. The restaurant that is can be one thing at one time, an entirely different thing at another time. A restaurant that I think so perfectly encompasses this is Chop and Block in Houston. It is a West African restaurant. And, you know, I went on a Sunday around brunch time and it was like church ladies in fascinators having, you know, suya and fried plantains. And then you go at night and it's just like big groups of friends having frozen drinks and Also skewers of suya. Their suya is incredible. He brings it from a club in Lagos. He literally packs it in his suitcase. Suya is a spice. It's got red chilies, it has nuts. It is just. It electrifies whatever it touches when done really well. And just like having good suya is. It's like being like. It's like being dead and being like jolted back to life is the experience of having really good suya, I would say. And so I just like, I love restaurants that are sort of shape shifters. Restaurants can, that can be different things for different people at different forms of the day. I also think this is a much more economically sustainable model for many places because it's counter service, so it requires less labor because it's not, you know, servers touching every table. You know, you, you, you can make money on alcohol, whereas if you were just a regular cafe, you might not be serving alcohol during the day, but you're also making margins on like coffee drinks in the morning. Like, I think it makes a lot of sense. It kind of disappeared during the pandemic. I'm really happy to have it back. And also just like to normalize this idea that just because you're ordering from a counter doesn't mean the service isn't going to be exceptional and the food isn't going to be super special.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Not to make this into a conversation about finance, but you've brought up a couple times the economic factors that either can force a restaurant to be a certain type of place or take a certain stance and how the lack of those can give a restaurant freedom. When you are going out there, how are you taking those things into account? It just seems like it's a. It's always been hard to open a restaurant, but it feels like it is harder than ever before. Money wise, real estate wise.

[Priya Krishna]

I think it just gives you context. It's not like I'm going, I'm grading on a curve because yeah, it's more expensive, but it's just like when you're going into a city, it just like really helps create a frame of mind for the restaurants that you're going to be eating at. But like, what I find is it sort of has created this interesting stratification where you either have the very high end, very well funded, kind of lavishly designed places and then like the really scrappy, we're making it work, you know, making Laotian food out of a garage types of spots. And I think for, at one point it was like, you know, that was happening mostly In New York and California and now, I mean that's the story of, of many major cities. I mean if you go to Austin, the cost of eating out in Austin is just about the same in New York. And you'll see the exact same trends of like the super fancy. Like you can tell they had a million dollar design budget places. And then you know, the, the shack serving Hainanese chicken rice. And it's like there's nothing to say that like one is better than the other, but it just like kind of informs.

[Brett Anderson]

It informs things. But we also travel, we're also reporters.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, right.

[Brett Anderson]

Like, you know, we notice trends that inform our other writing. That's a good point.

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah.

[Brett Anderson]

And that's the way too I think about the economic piece of it is you're always kind of very aware of the struggles that restauranters have to make to make money. Right. I mean, and there are restaurants that are clearly solutions for real estate conundrums. Right. And they're branded within an inch of their life. And you know, I judge them by a different standard than I do places that are clearly under capitalized and are solving those economic problems in really creative ways that often, that often we register as soulful, frankly.

[Priya Krishna]

And sometimes they work and sometimes they don't work.

[Brett Anderson]

Yeah. And then sometimes they don't work. You know, when you were talking about Austin, I said what's the name of that coffee place with the Twinkie and the Masa Twinkie.

[Priya Krishna]

Oh, Mercados y nombre.

[Brett Anderson]

Oh my God, that place is good.

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah, it's so good.

[Brett Anderson]

That's not even on our list.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tell us about.

[Priya Krishna]

Is this place that.

[Brett Anderson]

And you order at the counter is one of the reasons I thought it said they don't even have it inside.

[Priya Krishna]

It's literally in. It's like in a residential neighborhood in an alleyway, like the alleyway between two neighborhoods. There's like a little awning and the little menu has like coffee and then a bunch of things made with masa masa Twinkies, masa pancakes, you know, burritos where they're, you know, nixtamalizing the corn for the tortillas. And it is this tiny, tiny, tiny place that is just punching so above its weight class for a place in an alleyway. And there's like just such a distinct charm to it. Like it is just.

[Brett Anderson]

They're touching, they're giving you little pieces of shade. You know, we were both in Austin, so and I went there just I went there. Cause Priya told me about it famously.

[Priya Krishna]

I went there with my cousin Neha, who was like nine months pregnant and she went into labor maybe the day after. And I was like, oh my God. And she was like, it was because of the Masa Twinkie. It was because Mercados y nombre.

[Brett Anderson]

That Twinkie is like how they tell.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You to have, you know, hot sauce if you want to. If you want to induce flavor, you should just have one of these Twinkies.

[Brett Anderson]

And in that part of Austin, it's sort of like, that's East Austin, I believe, and which is a very like, I mean, talk about gentrification.

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah.

[Brett Anderson]

You know, and it's also. I like it. You know, I mean, I have to say as a visitor, I mean, I like the restaurants, East Austin or whatever, but I. You know, when you're at that place, it's sort of like this is the answer to how you can still do something in Austin without giving your entire business plan over to a banker. Right. You just take a little block of a building and you put a window in there and you do your cool stuff and you'd be as hospitable as you possibly can.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sometimes it feels like you see Priya, as I think you have noticed, you know, smaller places that were a food truck, that were a stall, that existed in an alley that all of a sudden are sort of fully formed in realized restaurants.

[Priya Krishna]

And it is the biggest disappointment when you ate an amazing pop up and then you go to the brick and mortar and it doesn't, it doesn't deliver the energy and scrappy creativity of the pop up. But this year I think we had a lot of places that went from stall or truck to full fledged restaurants that really, I mean, just like some of my favorite meals, the place that comes to mind as there's this place called P Thai's Khao Man Gai and Noodles in Austin. This is like. I have been quietly following this chef's career since I worked at a food magazine called Lucky Peach. And I went to Austin 2014 and he had a truck called Tycoon. And I had never had Hainanese chicken and rice. He was doing sort of a. A Thai version inspired by the population of Chinese people who lived in Thailand, which is his background. And it was like one of the most amazing things I'd ever had. Just like the slippery pieces of chicken skin. This like chicken you could kind of cut through. Like it was. It was a block of butter and then this just like fat enriched rice. It was so simple, but it was so perfect. And I had this perfect vision from 2014 of this man's cooking. Never got to have it again because he just couldn't. He couldn't raise the money to get a brick and mortar space. He did pop ups. I always missed his pop ups. Finally, he opens a brick and mortar space in Austin. Last year, I went, I ordered it, and it was like, this never happens. It lived up to every memory of his church.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You've been thinking about it for a decade.

[Priya Krishna]

For an entire decade, I'd been thinking about this guy's chicken and rice. And, like, you know, this is like, part of our job is like, you. So you have chefs in the back of your mind that you're kind of just following their career. Like, where. What are they going to open a restaurant? What are they doing next? Like, I had something really good. I wonder what that guy's going to do. He is one of those people, and it was the best feeling in the world to eat the same dish and be like, he has met and exceeded my expectations now that he has this. This big chicken. And then I called him to ask him how he made it, and he described the process. It just like, it, like, thrilled me all over again. Hearing he was like, now with this big chicken, you know, I can keep the broth going. He kept the same broth going for two years that he cooks this chicken in.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I saw you write that. Two years. I slightly thought that was a misprint.

[Priya Krishna]

No, no. Two year old broth.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That's. That finely aged broth. That's what that is.

[Priya Krishna]

Well, it's like. It's like stone soup. You just kind of keep replenishing and adding. And I mean, it was just. It's so exciting when a restaurant makes the transition, and with those additional resources, they're able to sort of create something even better and more ambitious. But doesn't always happen.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Brett, does this place in Kansas City fall into that category?

[Brett Anderson]

It does. Casey, Turkey Leg Man.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Casey, Turkey Leg Man. We have a picture of it as part of our list. It looks like something I would have eaten at medieval times when I was a kid.

[Brett Anderson]

Casey, Turkey Leg man did begin its life as a truck serving turkey legs, but opened in a brick and mortar space in Kansas City in the Kendaro neighborhood, which is like this historic part of Kansas City that used to be on the underground Railroad.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Kansas City, Kansas.

[Brett Anderson]

Kansas City, Kansas. Kck, As I believe the locals say. At least I've heard some locals say. In any event, it's, you know, it is now technically a brick and mortar restaurant. Right. Not a lot of places to Eat still. It does still, I think, function mainly as a takeout place. But it was a really interesting example of, like, how hospitality and atmosphere can be established in ways you don't quite expect. I mean, I went there with my friend. My friend Michael Palmer, who sometimes meets me in cities, a buddy of mine, to eat around with me. I know Priya does that, too.

[Priya Krishna]

I ran into Priya with her friends.

[Brett Anderson]

And we went there and we ate the food on the hood of our car, right? But I left there feeling this really intense sense of hospitality. First when we were there, the greeting we got from the guys behind the window, they were, you know, they were, you know, it was like, you guys aren't from around here, are you? Kind of. Right? And it's like, turns out we're not, you know, but. And, you know, we had that sort of interaction. And then there was. Once we started eating, and these turkey legs just sort of. I'm like, wow, this is like. You spend time thinking about a really good turkey leg. This is like. This is a good. This is delicious, right? And turkey is a part of barbecue that I think is a little bit under. Underappreciated, too, particularly in Texas. So I was bringing all that with me. And at one point while we were eating, it was. I was like, you know, I need to use the bathroom. And. And you're in the parking lot, and you're next door to the laundromat. And so I'm like, I'm gonna sneak into the Laundromat. I think I'm gonna launder. I don't want anyone to see because I'm not really doing any business with the laundromat. And the people in the Laundromat were.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Like, hey.

[Brett Anderson]

They were, like, super nice, you know, And I. They didn't care that I was peeing and not paying. And then when I got back out to the car, I'm like, michael, you gotta go to the laundromat, man. You know, like, so it was just this entire experience that was like, not just with the place, but with the neighborhood. Right? We sort of visited, and I just loved it, you know? And we had other good food in Kansas City, and it was. But that was the one that just in my memory that I kept thinking about. And so, yeah, it is now a real restaurant, but it's still, like, not table service. Right. In fact, I don't recall tables.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. I'd love to hear one thing that each of you maybe want to see a little bit less of over the next year in restaurants.

[Brett Anderson]

I really wish that restaurants would let us call them.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What do you mean?

[Brett Anderson]

It is impossible to call a restaurant on the phone?

[Priya Krishna]

Like, the phone on the thing that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Just nobody picks up?

[Brett Anderson]

Well, often they're not even. Don't even have a phone number, you know, and, like, I get that. That.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What do you want to talk to them about?

[Brett Anderson]

I mean, you know, we went to a restaurant last night, actually, Priya and I, and we were going to be going with a friend who was in a wheelchair. And then it was a reservation for three, so we needed to communicate that. And, you know, when you only can do it on the Resi app or whatever it is, I don't know if they saw it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brett Anderson]

You know, and then, like, also I had a question about, like, okay, so we had a reservation for three. Is it okay if we add a fourth person? You know, because often that's a four top. But maybe it's different when it's a wheelchair. You know, it's just like stuff you can't really ask. And when I'm traveling too, I don't know, there's. I think that it's something that restaurants. It mystifies me because I feel like it's abandoning this competitive advantage that restaurants have, you know, is that it's one of the few businesses left that we can interact with someone with that we can call and not like, dial zero.

[Gilbert Cruz]

To get the menu.

[Brett Anderson]

And then when you get. And I feel like that service can start on the phone, and that when you're abandoning that particular point of contact, you are creating this barrier between you and your customer that. That makes it feel like the rest of the alienating way in which we consume now that is not representative of what you get when you go to the place. And I think that you can start the experience of hospitality on the phone.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Brett Anderson]

So I'd like to see less. No phone numbers.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Invest in landlines restaurants. Yes, Priya.

[Priya Krishna]

I feel like I see this now every single place that I go, but it's like the Epcot restaurant where it's like, not serving the food, but it's serving, like the epcotified.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah.

[Priya Krishna]

Simulacra of the food. You find this with French restaurants, sort of like the Epcot French bistro that, you know, has the candles and the, you know, the bistro seats and serves the same menu of steak frites and gnocchi Parisienne and, you know, natural wine. And it's sort of like they're following from a playbook. I feel like the same thing happens with the. With Italian restaurants too. I see actually the same thing happen also with Indian restaurants like Epcot Indian restaurants that sort of like, are sort of fancy and a little like vaguely colonialist. Like, sort of. It's giving like British Raj version of India. Like, I'm seeing a lot of that style of restaurant and I don't know, I'm just sort of tired of it. Just like, give me the thing. Don't give me like the simulacra of. Of the thing. I just feel like there is such a monoculture with restaurants and I think a lot of it is because of social media. So you'll start to see like the same dishes, the same types of restaurants, restaurants that are sort of derivative of each other. And I understand why restaurants do it because they're like, it worked for here, so we should just do it. But I wish that there was less of it, sort of more originality, less derivativeness.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I love that phrase. The epic codification of restaurants. Thank you for such a robust conversation about great restaurants, best restaurants, restaurants you're excited about. I'm excited about the game that we're going to play at the end of every episode of the daily Sunday special. We play a game.

[Brett Anderson]

Are we in competition?

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's a game. Yes.

[Brett Anderson]

What are you saying?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm saying you are playing each other and one of you will win. But it's fine. It's okay for someone to win and someone not to win. You both will walk away feeling okay. We'll do that after the break.

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[Priya Krishna]

We went to Rome. Me, Aaron and her boyfriend. The entire time. I think that my boyfriend is going to propose to me. I knew he wasn't. Anyway, we booked this beautiful hotel with the edit through Chase Travel. Then later at a romantic dinner, no proposal. And his card was not accepted. I pay with my sapphire reserve. The three time points on dining made up for the whole, you know, no proposal thing. Yeah.

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[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm Wesley Morris. I'm a critic for the New York.

[Brett Anderson]

Times and I'm the host of a podcast called Cannonball. We're going to talk about that song you can't get out of your head.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That TV show you watched and can't.

[Brett Anderson]

Stop thinking about and the movie that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You saw when you were a kid.

[Brett Anderson]

That made you who you are, whether you like it or not.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I was so embarrassed the whole time because it's a bad film and I still love it.

[Brett Anderson]

You can find Cannonball on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, Brett, Priya, I promise we're gonna play a game. It is time to play that game. That means, Brett, that the two of you are competing against each other. Are you okay with that?

[Brett Anderson]

Do I have a choice?

[Gilbert Cruz]

No, you do not have a choice.

[Brett Anderson]

So, yeah, you don't care.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You don't have a choice. Okay. We are calling this game Dish or Debt. Okay, I'm going to give you the name of a well known restaurant. Then I'm going to describe two menu items from that restaurant. One is real, the other is not. If you can tell me which is the real one, you get a point.

[Priya Krishna]

I feel like, Brett, you're going to kick.

[Brett Anderson]

I'm not going to.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We're not going to include any of the 50 best restaurants from this year's list because that would have been too easy. Perhaps I ask one thing. Let me finish the question first before you buzz in. Okay, let us begin. Alinea, the Chicago restaurant that some people might remember from the Netflix series Chef's Table. It's renowned for molecular gastronomy. Has Alinea served a dish called nostalgia, which is a candy bar. A balloon. There's helium involved in grape or antiquity, which is artichoke, potato, parchment, olive and cream. Brett, which one is real?

[Brett Anderson]

The first one is real. The one with the balloon. Nostalgia.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Nostalgia is real, correct?

[Brett Anderson]

Yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This dish is an edible helium filled balloon. You can suck the helium out of it and then you eat the entire balloon. It's like.

[Brett Anderson]

It's weird.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's like, what happens?

[Priya Krishna]

I think we've both eaten after a.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Fish concert with food. Okay, next. Spago, Wolfgang Puck's Beverly Hills restaurant dedicated to fusion cuisine. Which one of these two dishes is real? Wasabi macaroni and cheese with miso and nori dressing or Applewood smoked salmon pizza with dill creme fraiche, chives and salmon roe.

[Priya Krishna]

Priya, the smoked salmon pizza. It's one of our most famous dishes. Smoked salmon pizza.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct. It has been on the menu at Spago since It opened in 1982. I believe the score is 1:1. All right, next. Restaurant Keens, the classic old school steakhouse right here in New York City, not too far from where we're sitting. Now. Which one of these two dishes is real? The legendary mutton chop or the famous venison loin?

[Brett Anderson]

Brett, Mutton chop.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You Are correct. Mutton chop. It is quite large. It's enormous. I would say it costs $73, I believe.

[Priya Krishna]

Does it really? Yeah, it's a. It's huge.

[Brett Anderson]

I've had it.

[Priya Krishna]

It's really expensive. Yeah.

[Brett Anderson]

It's the place to get mutton chop.

[Gilbert Cruz]

If you're getting mutton chop. All right, let's go after this. Next restaurant. Uchiko. This is a sushi restaurant in Austin, Texas. Which one of these two dishes is real hot rock? Wagyu beef, Japanese river rock and ponzu or green stream trout, shiso and yuzu. Priya.

[Priya Krishna]

Hot rock.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The hot rock, which is a great movie starring the recently deceased Robert Redford. Also a wonderful dish at Uchiko. It's thinly sliced beef that you can cook yourself at the table. You place the meat on a very hot stone. You guys are doing great.

[Brett Anderson]

I just watched Priya buzzed way too early that time. I just have to say. Okay, we were told to wait until the question was over. All right. I knew the hot rock thing. Just saying.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, I'm glad you guys are self regulating me. Next restaurant.

[Brett Anderson]

She's cheating.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Those are big accusations. That is a big accusation. Matt's Bar, a locally beloved burger restaurant in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Which of these two dishes is real? Wait until I ask. Wait until I say both dishes. Number one, Saucy Sally. Number two, Juicy Lucy. Brett.

[Brett Anderson]

Juicy Lucy.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The Juicy Lucy is the real dish. It is a burger made of two beef patties. They are sealed together and filled with very hot cheese. Sounds amazing.

[Brett Anderson]

It's awesome.

[Priya Krishna]

It's really good.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, next. Fleur, a fine dining restaurant at the Mandalay Bay Resort and casino in Las Vegas. Which of these two dishes is real? The Fleur foie gras filet mignon or The Fleur Burger 5000.

[Priya Krishna]

I have no. Like, have you been totally guessing?

[Brett Anderson]

I've been to Fleur. I'm gonna say the second one.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You're saying The Fleur Burger 5000.

[Brett Anderson]

Oh, wait. Excuse me.

[Priya Krishna]

I think it's the first one.

[Brett Anderson]

No, the first one is real. The first one is real.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The fleur foie gras la mignon. Yeah, you're both incorrect. I'm sorry.

[Priya Krishna]

It was the 5000.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The Fleur Burger 5000 is made with wagyu beef. It's topped with foie gras, shaved black truffles. It cost $5,000.

[Priya Krishna]

Wow.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I feel like you really have a lot of problems with this quiz.

[Brett Anderson]

Crazy rules.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Union Oyster House.

[Brett Anderson]

It's rigged.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Union Oyster House, one of Boston's oldest restaurants. Which of these two, is the real dish the broiled fresh Boston skrod or the whoopie pie?

[Priya Krishna]

I don't know.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Someone has.

[Brett Anderson]

My guess is gonna be the squad. Brett, I'm gonna guess the scrod.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The skrod. That is correct.

[Priya Krishna]

That feels very Boston.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is actually not a kind of fish, but it's the way that you prepare it. You're preparing a cod or a haddock. It's a New England term for a fish that's been split and deboned.

[Priya Krishna]

I feel like skrat is an onomatopoeia. It's kind of what it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, you're scroding and you scrod something. Okay, we're almost done here. Matt's El Rancho, a classic Tex mess restaurant in Austin that's been around since the 1950s. Which of these two is real? Bob Armstrong dip or the Davy Crockett dip? Priya.

[Priya Krishna]

I think it's the Bob Armstrong dip.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You are correct.

[Priya Krishna]

Yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's a dip that is named for a former Texas land commissioner who is apparently bored with what they had here. It's queso with a scoop of beef taco meat and then a scoop of guacamole added.

[Priya Krishna]

There is like no food association with Davy Crockett. But we do love Davy Crockett.

[Gilbert Cruz]

He's the king of the wild frontier.

[Priya Krishna]

I was taught a different song.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Wait, there's another Davy Crockett song?

[Priya Krishna]

It's like, with different verses. It's like a kid friendly version. I had to sing it in our second grade play.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Come on.

[Priya Krishna]

I don't know.

[Brett Anderson]

You gotta do it now.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Last one. Wendy's, the fast food giant. That this is a hint. Loves to do collabs. Wendy's was all I ate for like three years in my teenage years. Which of these is real? The rest in 10 piece chicken nuggets and dips of dread or the Raven's blood Frosty?

[Brett Anderson]

Brett, I'm gonna guess here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Brett Anderson]

Raven's blood Frosty.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sorry, it's a trick question. They're both on the menu. They are collabs with the Netflix series Wednesday, which just finished its second season. The dips of dread are mystery sauces with the names. This will sting. Great mistake. Nowhere to whoa. And you'd can't hide Hyde spelled like Jekyll and Hyde. Who won? Wonderful producer, Brett. Brett won. Do you feel better?

[Brett Anderson]

I feel a little better about it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Brett, I have a prize for you. You can take this back to New Orleans. We've awarded.

[Priya Krishna]

Oh, my God.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This will be the fourth one that we are awarding. It is called the Gilby. It has my face on it.

[Priya Krishna]

Incredible.

[Brett Anderson]

Gilbert. I'm at a loss for words. I'm holding it above my head with both hands like it's the Stanley Cup.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Great job, Brett. Great job, Priya. Thank you, both of you for being on the Daily Sunday special. This was just a pure delight. Thank you so much.

[Brett Anderson]

Thanks so much for having us. It was fun.

[Priya Krishna]

I'm willing to sing us out with a Davy Crockett song.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do it.

[Brett Anderson]

Do it.

[Priya Krishna]

They did not win at the Alamo, but with Santa Ana, Texas did show. Sam Houston led the battle. You know, Texas was freed at San Jacinto Houston. Sam Houston remembered the Alamo. Texas was free. That's the secret last verse of the Davy Crockett song.

[Brett Anderson]

Oh, never heard it. Fabulous.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was fantastic.

[Brett Anderson]

Bring a banjo next time.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, that's our show, everyone. This episode was produced by Tina Antolini with help from Luke Van Der Plug, Kate Lopresti and Alex Barron. We had production assistance from Dalia Haddad. It was edited by Wendy Doerr and engineered by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Elisheba Itup and Diane Wong. Special thanks to Paula Schumann. Next week I'll be talking about fashion with my colleagues from the styles desk. I play plan to ask them what else I should wear to work other than a white button down shirt. It's going to be fun. See you here. Thanks for listening.

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