Sunday Special: Wicked, Good?

Summary

The Daily: Sunday Special – Wicked, Good?

Date: November 23, 2025
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guests: Kyle Buchanan (Hollywood columnist, NYT), Madison Malone Kircher (Internet culture reporter, NYT)

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Episode Overview

This Sunday special dives deep into the pop culture phenomenon of Wicked’s two-part film adaptation, focusing on the just-released Wicked for Good (Part 2). Gilbert Cruz is joined by Kyle Buchanan and Madison Malone Kircher to discuss the films’ impact, their faithfulness to the original Broadway musical, adaptation challenges, internet fandom, critical reception, and the future of movie musicals in a struggling Hollywood landscape. The episode balances earnest critique, humor, and playful rivalry—capped with a musical theater quiz.

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1. The Panel’s Relationship to Wicked

[01:04 – 04:03]

• Hosts' Backgrounds:
  • Gilbert Cruz: Hadn't seen Broadway's Wicked but watched the first film multiple times, enjoyed it, and recently saw the sequel.
  • Kyle Buchanan: Came to Wicked as a “virgin,” never seeing the stage show, which he believes gave him a “clean perspective” (01:43).
    • "I actually think that gave me a very sort of clean perspective on the movie project itself." – Kyle Buchanan [01:43]
  • Madison Malone Kircher: A long-time theater fan who saw Wicked on Broadway, recalling the post-pandemic reopening as “for lack of a better word, magical.” [02:23-02:58]
    • "Being there that night was, for lack of a better word, magical." – Madison Malone Kircher [02:58]
    • Sang “For Good” at her 8th grade graduation, citing Wicked as formative.

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2. Two-Film Adaptation: From Skepticism to Phenomenon

[04:03 – 06:27]

• The creative choice to split the story into two films received early skepticism, especially over whether the second would have enough plot and strong songs.
• The first movie was a cultural and financial blockbuster and earned a Best Picture nomination—a fact that still surprises the panel (04:53).
  • “Which I still think is crazy.” – Gilbert Cruz [04:53]
• Quick recap of Wicked’s story and core characters—Elphaba (Wicked Witch), Glinda (Good Witch), their friendship at Shiz University, ending act one with “Defying Gravity.”

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3. Skepticism Around Movie Musicals

[05:48 – 07:42]

• Musicals often struggle in film adaptation (Les Miserables, Phantom of the Opera) or outright bomb (Cats, Dear Evan Hansen).
• The cast and production team were aware of the challenge; “not a done deal” Wicked would succeed.
  • "So it was not a done deal at all that Wicked would be a success. And in fact, I think that's why it took so long to get off the ground." – Kyle Buchanan [05:48]
• Hollywood history of musical adaptation, with cycles of success and failure.
• The panel reminisces (humorously) about Les Mis and Russell Crowe’s controversial casting [07:02].

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4. The Marketing Machine and Press Tour Hype

[07:42 – 10:16]

• Discusses the nearly non-stop Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo press tour, omnipresent and “adjacent costuming.”
• The most viral moment: “holding space for Defying Gravity”—a meme spawned by an awkward press junket where an interviewer badly misused therapy-speak, charmingly confusing both leads [08:01+].
  • “You could not forget. You could not escape it.” – Madison about the press tour [07:54]
  • “The moment continued to heighten, heighten, heighten, until it reached an absolutely absurd place.” – Kyle Buchanan [09:00]

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5. Wicked for Good: Film Critique, Adaptation Struggles & Character Arcs

[10:26 – 18:54]

• Opening recap: The sequel picks up with a time jump; Elphaba is a fugitive after being branded, Glinda is now a figurehead for propaganda, and undertones of oppression and resistance are more explicit.
• Madison unpacks why adapting act two is tough—less plot, fewer songs, and “the songs that we, the musical theater girlies, skip.” [11:51]
  • "Frankly, I'm so sorry to anyone out here who's in this for the Wizard. ...these are the songs that we, the musical theater girlies, skip." – Madison [12:26]
  • The act functions as connective tissue to canon: “The second act exists to tie all those things together and make you go, oh, and then you get 'For Good' and we all cry.” [12:39]
• Kyle observes that for newcomers, Part 1 felt complete—Part 2 feels more like “an extended coda” whose appeal is in spending more time with beloved characters [13:20].
  • “It doesn't feel necessarily like a complete and urgent movie in the way that the first one does. But I do think it works as sort of an extended coda...” – Kyle Buchanan [13:20]
• Ariana Grande’s Glinda gets deeper character focus in the sequel. The director signaled this by printing the script on pink pages; Glinda’s arc is “the most interesting conflict here.” [14:26]
• Madison’s blunt review of Wicked for Good: “Horrendous. Hideous. ...It just felt thin.” Songs and politics are “heavy-handed”—the “magic” is missing. [15:23-16:28]
• Debate over the political allegory (animal rights/propaganda), with playful ribbing about Gilbert’s anti-animal attitudes; confusion about Oz’s political system provides comic relief [18:54+].
  • “Do we care this much about the animals of Oz?” – Gilbert [18:20]

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6. Emotional Highs, Standout Moments & LGBTQ Resonance

[19:24 – 24:25]

• Both praise “For Good” and an emotionally charged (if platonic) scene between Glinda and Elphaba, staged with a door between them [19:49].
• Madison dishes on the “racy” love scene between Elphaba and Fiyero, with surprising “heat” for a PG film [20:54+].
  • “I was honestly surprised to get even just the amount of bare shoulders, the very strong implication that these two characters had.” – Kyle Buchanan [22:23]
• The real “love story” is the friendship and emotional connection between the two leads.
  • “That is really the love story that this entire franchise is about, right? The relationship between these two women.” – Madison [23:01]
• The cast’s chemistry humanizes the film, creating “remarkably human sized” moments in an epic production. [24:00]
  • “They’re not afraid to play these characters very real and intimate and small, which I think makes the big moments feel even bigger.” – Kyle Buchanan [24:00]

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7. Hollywood’s Box Office Crisis (and Wicked’s Counterexample)

[26:42 – 33:16]

• Recent box office has been dismal, even for star-led films; audiences want “event” movies that are culturally required viewing, making Wicked uniquely positioned for success. [27:33+]
  • “They felt like events. … If you don't see Sinners in IMAX 70...are you really doing it right, bro?” – Kyle Buchanan [27:46]
• Wicked’s chain of “IP” is key to its draw, tying together 120+ years of Oz lore. [29:48]
• Kyle questions whether young audiences even know The Wizard of Oz: “Would a 10-year-old have seen the Wizard of Oz as many times as we would have by 10?...This might be an interesting case of the tail wagging the dog—that people will be coming to the Wizard of Oz predominantly through Wicked and not the other way around.” [30:06]
• Wicked for Good leans heavily on references to the original movie, which may go over kids’ heads—or make the twists fresher for those unfamiliar.
  • “If you can't see it coming a mile away, ...the ending of this film would be that much more satisfying if...it comes as a genuine surprise to you.” – Madison [31:53]
• PSA: Parents, show your kids The Wizard of Oz, proclaims Gilbert [32:34].

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8. The Power of Female Fandom

[33:16 – 35:07]

• Wicked’s success is powered by young women, echoing Barbie, Titanic, K-pop, etc. Their repeat viewership and online enthusiasm are unparalleled—a demographic Hollywood insufficiently serves. [33:16]
  • “If women really like something...they will watch it multiple times. ...The bounds of their fandom and obsession are ultimately very lucrative...” – Kyle [33:16]
• There’s playful wishful thinking (and capitalist realism) about more young-women-focused properties like Practical Magic 2 and Devil Wears Prada 2. [34:26]

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9. Online Fandom & The Wicked Community

[35:07 – 36:48]

• Wicked has always been “extremely online,” due to its fanfic roots and themes of “being othered.” Fandoms congregated in chat rooms, forums, and now video bootlegs, as not everyone can make it to Broadway.
  • "For many, Broadway is an online experience." – Madison [35:07]
• Fans obsess over mishaps (“no-fly nights” when Elphaba doesn’t fly), and over-the-top dissections of vocal runs, making for a lively digital fan culture. [36:48]

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10. Intense Marketing, Press Cycles & Cultural Saturation

[37:56 – 39:51]

• The onslaught of Wicked-themed merch and marketing is now “pink and green noise” for diehard fans; the only real viral moment was an actual real-life incident (Ariana being rushed by a fan in Singapore, saved by Cynthia). [38:24]
  • “I'm not gonna buy the pink ketchup. Like, I don't need the eyeshadow palette...it just becomes pink and green noise.” – Madison [38:24]

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11. The Inevitable “Wicked” Franchise Question

[39:53 – 41:08]

• Will Hollywood chase more “empowering content for women” or just churn out more Wicked sequels and spin-offs? Both, probably.
• Discussion of possible spin-offs (Shiz University?), animated prequels, and more, noting there’s book source material to mine if the studio wants.

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12. Podcast Game Segment: "Off to See the Wizard"

[43:16 – 53:33]
(A light-hearted, competitive quiz covers:)

• Wizard of Oz-related pop culture (e.g., Scarecrow, Cowardly Lion, Tin Man, films set in Oz)

• Famous renditions of “Defying Gravity” (with humorous celebrity impersonations)

• Naming as many “Wicked for Good” songs, Oz films, or musicals Oscar-nominated for Best Picture as possible

• The quiz maintains a playful, nerdy tone, with Madison and Kyle swapping friendly verbal jabs, culminating in “The Gilby”—a gag trophy.

  • Memorable exchange:
    • “I'm treasuring this. This is incredible.” – Kyle, upon winning the trophy [53:34]
    • “Put your finger out again so she could hold it.” – Gilbert, referencing the iconic “holding space” meme [53:57]

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13. Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the cultural power of Wicked's fandom:
  “So much of what we're seeing and what we're seeing not work is aimed at either young men or older audiences who simply aren't showing up. And then you have this. This slice of the demographic pie where they're not just showing up, they're showing up once, twice, three times, four times, and bringing their friends.” – Kyle Buchanan [33:16]

• On the second film's themes:
  “It all but stops short of having Ariana, you know, poke the bubble in the air.” – Madison Malone Kircher on new, heavy-handed songs [16:01]

• On speculative future spin-offs:
  “Some sort of Shiz University spinoff.” – Kyle Buchanan [40:36]

• On the movie industry's struggles:
  “It’s been rough, man... a lot of these films have been underperforming, no matter the star power.” – Kyle Buchanan [27:33]

• On the meaningfulness of the Elphaba-Glinda bond:
  “That is really the love story that this entire franchise is about, right? The relationship between these two women.” – Madison Malone Kircher [23:01]

• On the “holding space” meme:
  “The moment continued to heighten, heighten, heighten, until it reached an absolutely absurd place.” – Kyle Buchanan [09:00]

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14. Final Thoughts

The episode closes recognizing Wicked’s unique position in both box office and online pop culture—drawing crowds as Hollywood falters, sparking memes, inspiring intense fandom, and centering women in ways few blockbusters do. There is genuine affection, critique, and admiration from the panel for the film’s human emotional core—even when the adaptation and politics feel heavy-handed. It's a celebration of pop and theater convergence, internet frenzy, and the powerful intersection of nostalgia, IP, and community.

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Recommended Segments & Timestamps

• Panelist intros/love for Wicked: [01:04–04:03]
• The first film’s unexpected blockbuster status: [04:03–06:27]
• The press tour and “holding space for Defying Gravity” meme: [07:42–10:16]
• Critique of Wicked for Good adaptation: [11:51–16:28]
• Animal rights themes and political allegory debate: [17:01–18:54]
• Emotional, LGBTQ+ resonance and favorite moments: [19:24–24:25]
• Why fans (especially young women) power these successes: [33:16–35:07]
• Fandom: online bootlegs, viral mishaps, and internet tradition: [35:07–36:48]
• The future of the Wicked “franchise”: [39:53–41:08]
• Quiz/game segment for Wizard of Oz superfans: [43:16–53:33]

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This summary captures the episode’s thoughtful criticisms, pop culture insights, and playful in-jokes for both superfans and newcomers to Oz—leaving listeners informed, entertained, and, perhaps, a bit more “wicked-pilled.”

Transcript

[Starbucks Representative]

This podcast is supported by Starbucks.

At Starbucks, we've more than doubled paid parental leave now up to 18 weeks, which means Starbucks baristas can spend more time with the best company they know, their families. At Starbucks, benefits like parental leave are just the start.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome to the Sunday special. I'm Gilbert Cruz. Wicked is back. Wicked for Good has just been released. This is film number two. The first movie, simply titled Wicked, came out almost exactly one year ago today. And Wicked for Good is going to be one of the biggest films of the year. Joining me to talk about it is Kyle Buchanan, who covers Hollywood for the Times and who recently profiled Ariana Grande, one of the stars of the film. Hello, Kyle. Hello, Gilbert And Madison. Malone Kircher, who covers Internet culture for the Times, but more importantly, for the purposes of this conversation, is an Ozzie and she is a wick enthusiast.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Yeah, we'll go with that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Hello, Madison.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I'm thrillified to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We're going to try not to spoil too much of this movie, but we are going to talk about some specific scenes. So if you're the type of person for which that is important, keep that in mind. All right, to get started, I think listeners should have a sense from all of us of where we stand Wicked wise in relation to Wicked. How wickified are we? How Wicked pilled are we? I've never seen the Broadway show, but I've seen the first movie several times. I enjoyed it, saw the second movie, listened to the music. Kyle, we're gonna start with you. What's your relationship to Wicked?

[Kyle Buchanan]

You know, I came to Wicked as something of a virgin. I had never seen it on stage, which made me feel like a little bit of an aberration. But I actually think that gave me a very sort of clean perspective on the movie project itself. And also, this may well be how people come to Wicked in the future because the movies are such a phenomenon that I think a lot of people and future generations will experience this as a movie first situation.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madison, you are slightly, perhaps slightly more or less green.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I guess in this particular letter, you're.

[Gilbert Cruz]

A little different from Kyle here. You were familiar with the musical.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I am familiar with the musical. I have seen it on the Broadway when Wicked returned after the pandemic shifted. Deep in the pandemic, my little sister called me and said, we have to be there the first night. And we like Wicked, but this is not like a musical that we have a deep, long sisterly tradition of. And I said, why? And she goes, the first line. Glinda comes down from the bubble and says, it's good to see me, isn't it? And my sister said, the crowd is gonna go nuts. It will cure the depression we've been sunk into for years. And she was right. She was really right. Being there that night was, for lack of a better word, magical.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Was that the first time that you had seen it?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I had seen it in Chicago, of all places. And also, I grew up as a young millennial musical theater geek with blonde hair and a gentle curl, as it were. So what I'm saying is, I did sing for good at my 8th grade graduation with a girl I literally never saw again after that day. I think this was a formative experience for me.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Some people come into your life for a reason.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's because they can also hold a pitch.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Before these movies came out, would you say that this was something that you had ever been interested in seeing a film version of?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I mean, been interested? I don't know how closely you followed the production of Wicked, the film. It took decades. Is that right?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Yeah, very long time.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

It was sort of like, you know, like Lucy and the Football. For many of us online, it was like, wicked movie is coming. Wicked movie is coming. You get. You know, I was working in entertainment journalism. You'd get dribs and drabs of announcements, and we'd all sort of be like, yeah, okay, sure. See you when I see ya. So, yeah, it was exciting to finally see it become made manifest.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So now that we've established where each of us stand, I want to sort of focus on these two movies for a bit. You know, the team behind this decided to split the story into two separate films. Essentially, Wicked is act one, Wicked for good is act two. This was a choice that in the lead up to the release of the first film last year, a lot of people were talking smack about. They were like, why are we doing this? This is a musical in which you're gonna have a second movie full of lackluster songs in which there's not a ton of plot. The first film, however, was an undeniable success. It was financially successful, culturally dominant, somewhat critically successful. It was nominated for best Picture.

[Bank of America Representative]

What?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

What are you staring at?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Which I still think is crazy. The first movie, just to remind people what it's about. It's about Elphaba. She becomes the Wicked Witch of the West.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

You're green.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You have Glinda, who becomes the good witch.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

She's so good. We love you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Takes you through their school years, where they go to shiz University, which is.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I'll say it like a question, a.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Name they should have changed for the movie Elphaba.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

You can room with Ms. Galinda.

[Gilbert Cruz]

They form this unlikely friendship. And the movie ends with arguably the musical's biggest hit, which is Defying Gravity.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

There is no fight we cannot win Just you and I Defying Gravity.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Kyle, you've spoken to members of the cast and the crew over the past couple years. Did these two films always feel like they were going to be a success?

[Kyle Buchanan]

I think people hoped that they would be, but there was enough precedent to suggest that they wouldn't. I mean, when you look at the really big musical theater phenomenons that have come out on film, something like, you know, Les Miserables or Phantom of the Opera, they couldn't quite translate that gigantic, overwhelming enthusiasm to, you know, big boffo box office scores. And then you had, you know, outright bombs like Dear Evan Hansen or Cats that maybe did a little bit of damage to the actual, you know, brand on stage. So it was not a done deal at all that Wicked would be a success. And in fact, I think that's why it took so long to get off the ground.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, it, it, it's interesting thinking about that because movie musicals since the invention of sound, have been one of the mainstays of sort of big Hollywood productions. They've obviously gone through peaks and dips. You had, you know, you had the phase where we were making Dr. Dolittle and stuff like that in the late 60s, and that was pretty awful. You talk about Les Mis. I think we were both working at Vulture at the time. I was so excited because I love Les Mis. And I think within the first 15 minutes I was like, this is gonna be rough going.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Stars in their multitudes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Russell Crowe is a great actor. He should not have been in that movie. And Yet Wicked Part 1 was a great success. And I think that's in part not just because of the film, but also because of the lead up to the release. I think we've all observed how the way that actors and stars do the press circuit now is as entertaining sometimes as the film itself. And Ariana and Cynthia were on what seemed like a 32 month press tour. It just lasted forever. And Madison, you observed so much for.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

This as the chronically online person in the room. Yes, the pink and green blur that was the press tour for Wicked Part 1. Ariana and Cynthia were everywhere, and notably they were everywhere together. This is a film about sisterhood, which apparently means you can never leave each other's side. They're Everywhere. They're constantly in costume. Adjacent dress, like, lest you forget, I am green and she is pink. And which witch is which? You could not. You could not forget. You could not escape it. I think perhaps the biggest and most viral moment, though, that breaks out of this particular press circuit is, and I will now, Kyle, can I have your finger? I'm delicately clutching Kyle's pointer finger. The moment in which the phrase holding space for defying gravity enters the digital lexicon. It was what should have been just an incredibly or potentially incredibly mundane press junket interview this week. People are taking the lyrics of defying gravity and really holding space with that. An interviewer named Tracy Gochrest asked arguably just an insane question about people online holding space for the lyrics of defying gravity. Ariana and Cynthia are incredibly consummate professional polite. But you can tell behind their eyes they're going, what is this person asking us about? I can't remember which one of them says it, but they're like, oh, I didn't, I didn't know that was happening.

[Kyle Buchanan]

And it's like, Cynthia, I know Diamond.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I didn't know that was happening. I've seen it on a couple posts. I don't know how widespread, but you know, I am in queer media. So that's. And it goes on to become this moment. Brands co opted. It becomes a meme. This phrase transcends the film in the way that marketers sit in a room and go, okay, how can we figure out how to have a holding space moment? Like it was one of those. The sort of thing you cannot fake.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I have to say, it must have been amazing for Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. Cause you're asked the same questions over and over or some variation of the same questions. And then for this one magical moment, they have no idea what's going on and they really have to, you know, respond in real time.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I also think that Ariana and Cynthia, you know, they have this ability on screen and certainly when they sing to sort of match each other's frequency. They can also do that emotionally in real life, but certainly in this case where nobody was quite sure what anyone was doing. And yet the moment continued to heighten, heighten, heighten, until it reached an absolutely absurd place. I don't know that anybody involved knows how they got there, but God bless them for doing that.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

That's what's beautiful about it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There is still magic in the world is my reaction to that video. So we also wicked for good and I would love to talk about it. Listeners again, you've been warned.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

It's been 22 years since the musical.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Came out and about three days since the movie came out. We're gonna talk about it. There's a bit of a time jump from the first film, haven't you?

[Bank of America Representative]

I'm the Wicked Witch of the West.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Elphaba has been officially branded the Wicked Witch of the west by the wizard of Oz, played by Jeff Goldblum in this film. And Madame Morrible, played by Michelle Yeoh.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

The Wicked Witch, can't elude us forever.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The two of them, they're still being mean to animals, and Elphaba is still trying to free all the animals. Glinda has been made like the propaganda face of this new administration here.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

It's more important than ever that you lift everyone's spirits.

[Gilbert Cruz]

She's tasked with wearing a lot of pink, lifting the spirits of the people of Oz. But the thing is, she still loves her friend and she still wants the best for her.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Elphaba, they're coming for you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There's a lot of other stuff that goes on. The film is darker than the first one. There's a lot of not very subtle political undertones. Let's talk about it. Madison. You, as we established, are the biggest fan of Wicked in the entire New York Times building. What is your understanding of the difficulties of adapting essentially the second act of the show to its own film?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Notably, Act 1 ends on the highest note in the show. Right. It ends on that riff in Defying Gravity. It is. There's quite literal height to it, and so there's an immediate crash that follows. And the second act of the show is fairly thin, both in terms of content. There's not a ton of plot left to happen. The big twists don't come until the last, you know, 10 minutes or so. There aren't that many songs, quite, quite literally. There just aren't that many numbers. And frankly, I'm so sorry to anyone out here who's in this for the Wizard. But like Wonderful Sentimental Man Reprise, these are the songs that we, the musical theater girlies, skip.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. You don't like the guys.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Yeah, obviously, I'm not. No one is watching Wicked for the men.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Well, apologies to People magazine, I suppose.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And Jonathan Baling, sexiest man alive.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

But it's very thin. There's not a ton of plot. A lot of it exists simply to tie in the world that Gregor McGuire, the author of the book, has built around the existing wizard of Oz ip. So, you know, the Yellow Brick Road, Dorothy Gale, the entire story, you know, and Love. So much happened before the house dropped in. Like, mostly the second act exists to tie all those things together and make you go, oh, and then you get for good and we all cry.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That's a really good song.

[Kyle Buchanan]

But it's interesting, too, because as somebody who came to this material very fresh and with a cynical eye of, oh, are they really splitting it in two for maximum profit? When I watched the first movie, I was surprised at how complete it felt.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Agreed.

[Kyle Buchanan]

It felt to me as though all of the real questions of this property were answered by the end. I know why she became the Wicked Witch. So I sort of wonder to myself, what more terrain is there to cover in the second movie? And I think having seen it, the answer is it doesn't feel necessarily like a complete and urgent movie in the way that the first one does. But I do think it works as sort of an extended coda with these characters. If you liked spending time with these two in the first movie, well, here you go. Here's two hours more that you can have to wrap up that experience. I do think, like, even if it doesn't feel like this film has the same stakes as the original, that people that audiences will appreciate that extended time that they get with Cynthia and Ariana.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. And as someone who, again, wrote about Ariana for the Times, it seems like a lot of this film was really predicated on her character, her character arc, her performance. What was your understanding of what she and the director, John Chu, sort of tried to do with Linda?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Yeah. Even when John decided to split these movies into two, the first script he printed on green page, and the second one he printed on pink. You know, just to sort of indicate that the second film, in a lot of ways, the arc is Glinda's, or at least the most interesting conflict here. You know, Glinda has sort of bought into this fascist ideal that the wizard is espousing because it means that she gets to wear a lot of pretty pink dresses and be famous. But within that gilded life, within that bubble, she's dying inside. She doesn't have access to her friends. Everybody's kind of turning on her, and she has to keep espousing these lies. And I think Ariana plays this role. You know, I think all of Cynthia's highlights, at least the major parts of that performance that everyone will remember are in the first movie. And a lot of the really strong dramatic material that Ariana gets is in the second one.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. Madison, what did you think of the film?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Horrendous.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is extreme. Horrendous.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Hideous. I'm running out of Ozzie and Slang from my memory. I, I didn't love it. It just felt thin. And I agree to your point about the first film feeling just beautifully composed. I went into that movie with very high expectations and I left having them met if not exceeded. I was deeply impressed with Ariana Grande, who was giving Doris Day if she wore highlighter from Pat McGrath. Just genuinely was very impressed by both of those performances and the film and left thinking, okay, let's see what they got for part two. The new songs didn't do a ton for me. There's not a ton of stuff.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There are two new songs.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

There are two new songs, one of which is called the Girl in the Bubble. It's incredibly heavy. It all but stops short of having Ariana, you know, poke the bubble in the air.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You're saying a musical theater song is heavy handed.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

You know, there's some room for subtlety.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Uh huh.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Isn't it high time were her bubble to pop? There simply isn't enough plot to sustain it. And also by nature of the politics of the world we're living in right now, so many of the undertones just feel, I've already used heavy handed ham fisted. They just, it's. There's no magic, there's only drudgery.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, I agree with you that some of it does feel heavy handed. The sort of the present day resonances. But the original book, and by virtue of that, the original musical, that stuff is baked into there as well. When Gregory Maguire wrote this in 1995, when the musical came out around the time of the Iraq war, it was sort of a different idea of who's in power and what are the messages that they're giving us and who are the people that are spreading what some consider to be propaganda.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

And that comes down to the difference between a 45 minute second act and a 2 hour and 18 minute second act. Yeah, because at a certain point you're just saying the same thing over and over again.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There's so many banners in this movie.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

So many banners.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Like what's the banner budget? Every scene is like, here's new banners from the sky. They're all saying the wicked Witch is passed. At a certain point. We got it.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I want to push back on something though, which is, you know, you're criticizing the heavy handedness of the fascist message and the metaphors, but I don't think they worked on our dear friend Gilbert Cruz because Gilbert is very anti animal after having watched the Wiccan movies. This is Gilbert does not want those animals to have rights.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This is totally unnecessary to put Peter Gilbert. I love animals.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Uh huh. Prove it.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

You just don't want to listen to what they have to say.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I just. I don't know that predicating Elphaba's entire journey on wanting to advocate for animal rights is the strongest or most convincing motivation for a character. Animals are great. I don't want to hear them talk. I don't know. It's just. Do we care this much about the animals of Oz? What is the animal system? We see one animal who's a teacher. Not a very good teacher, as far as I could tell. And that is what we're supposed to base our entire love of this animal underclass on.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I'm just imagining gilbert going to ratemyteacher.com and looking at Dr. Dillon.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I do not understand the animal hierarchy in Oz. Neither do I understand.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

As you recall, at one point during this movie, I'm taking notes in a notebook like, you know, a good little journalist, and Gilbert just shoulders me, like elbows me in the shoulder and takes my pen and scribbles in his hand. We get to the end of the film and I'm like, gilbert, what? And it's the only note you took the entire movie?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

What'd you write down?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I wrote down, what is Oz's political system? The entire first half of the movie, I was like, so is the wizard a dictator? Where is the government? I understand there's this council of governors and Nessa Rose is a Munchkin governor.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

But canonically Munchkin City also has a mayor. Like, that's the source text. So I agree.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Can you see my confusion?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Yeah, no, I agree.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, she's green.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Just go with it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You're right, you're right. I'm thinking too much about it. All that being said, there's some pretty great highs in this. I found, for good, quite emotionally moving. There's a scene towards the end where they are in the tower and Elphaba puts Linda behind a door and says, you have to hide here, Dorothy. She puts her in the closet. Dorothy is coming. Take the book. Hide here. There's a split screen and the two of them are on opposite sides of the door for quite a long time. And I was just like, these two love each other so much. When are they gonna kiss? And they never did.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Well, that's something that they arrived in, in rehearsals, according to John Chu, really, when they were just simply rehearsing it before. I think they'd even gotten to London, where they shot this film, Ariana and Cynthia were singing that song and then essentially mimed a door. So their relationship, their bond is what informed the staging of that movie ultimately.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madison, what are the scenes that stuck with you, good or bad?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Well, we have to talk about the cardigan and the shoulder.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay. Well, there's a slightly racy scene for PG movie. I feel like in this film Kiss Me to Fear, which is Fiyero, who's played by Jonathan Bailey, the man people.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Are coming to see. Wicked four. My sincerest applause.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The sexiest man alive. He is Glinda's fiance, but since the first film, he has been in love with Elphaba. He's the head of essentially the wizard's royal guard at this point in the story. But he makes a decision to flee with Elphaba. They go to her tree house in the woods and they have a love scene. And Elphabeth takes off her robe, which I was wondering, is she just gonna wear this the whole movie? Does she ever bathe? Like, what's going on? And she puts on a very ratty looking gray sweater and there's a lot of shoulder action going on. Ratty Chicago, ratty chic.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

It's this long coat sweater that looks like it's from a costuming plot from a modernist take on cats. Like, that is Grizabella's costume in some college production. A black box of cats.

[Kyle Buchanan]

They don't have unique, low and a not yet, maybe post wizard.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I was. Maybe I'm just a bit of a prude, but I was surprised at the heat that was generated in this scene.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I was honestly surprised to get even Just the amount of bare shoulders, the very strong implication that these two characters had. It was a little bit of a relief to me. I thought, okay, they're not pussyfooting around this. I mean, I couldn't think of the very last time that it was clear that two characters in a big tentpole movie had hooked up.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm happy for them because he turns into a scarecrow at the end and as far as I know, has no genitals. Madison, what do you think audiences are gonna walk away from this movie feeling good about?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

The moments in Wicked for good that touched me are the ones that are these, like intimate little moments between Ariana and Cynthia, who do have this undeniable chemistry. And that is really the love story that this entire franchise is about, right? The relationship between these two women. And it's so clear even it's easy to become cynical. Watching the never ending green and pink press tour and Feel that this is a little contrived, but there's this scene, it's actually in the trailer where they're talking and Cynthia says something like, just look at me. Not with your eyes, with theirs. Look at me. Not with your eyes, with theirs. And you can just, like in these micro movements of her, like, perfect little eyebrows, you can just. The emotions that Ariana Grande is able to telegraph and the feelings she has towards Cynthia and also towards Elphaba. This is a show that is deeply special and important to Ariana Grande and has been since she was a child. You can feel that sitting in your seat.

[Kyle Buchanan]

And I think that is actually sort of a big takeaway that people will have not just from this second movie, but from both of these movies, which is Cynthia and Ariana are delivering something that is remarkably human sized given the epic scale of this project. And they're not afraid to play these characters very real and intimate and small when they need to, which I think makes the big moments feel even bigger.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, it is the human moments, it's not the animal moments. And that's my point. Like, we don't need to.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Oh, man, we walked away right into that one.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Humans are animals too.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Do you own a pet?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I. I have a dog and I love him. I love him very much.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Tracks.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What does that mean?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I'm just saying, someone who owns a pet.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Subjugating an animal, we treat that dog goddamn well.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Okay, Gilbert, I'm gonna need to know your thoughts on Zootopia too.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, all right. We are gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna talk about why this franchise has done so well, is continuing to do so well in what is by all accounts a pretty dark time for Hollywood. We'll be right back.

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[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, we're going to talk about Hollywood right now. Hollywood has not been doing great this fall. I don't think that's a secret. The industry, I think, has been struggling to get people into theaters for years now, certainly since the pandemic. And we have seen the past few months this trend of movies with people who at least used to be regarded as movie stars really sort of bombing at the box office or not making a dent in any way. I think I saw the stat that if you adjust for inflation, which we always must do, I really don't understand what that means and exclude 2020 because of the pandemic. This October's box office, this is only one, but this October's box office was the lowest monthly total on record ever. Cal, I'd love for you to talk through, you know, what is happening in Hollywood right now and like, where does Wicked fit in?

[Kyle Buchanan]

It's been rough, man, like you said. Yeah, a lot of these films have been underperforming, no matter the star power. You know, there's a really lovely Channing Tatum, Kirsten Dunst dramedy called Roofman that came out that I think back in the day would have made at least 60, $70 million, would have been a word of mouth hit and people just simply didn't go. There are success stories this year. You know, you have sinners one battle after another, weapons. But in two of those three cases, what Sinners and One Battle did very effectively, in addition to just being good movies is they felt like events. They felt like you have to see it in this premium format. And if you don't see sinners in IMAX 70 or one battle after another in VistaVision, are you really doing it right, bro? Like you've got to go see it in the right format and that creates the feeling of this actually is special. This is a particular thing that you ought to do. And a small movie can feel like an event. But you've got to make sure that people feel if I don't see this I won't be part of the cultural conversation that it will move past me. So there's stakes to going to the film. And Wicked has that, you know, that the cultural conversation is going to be about Wicked during, you know, these few weeks. So you've got to go at some point.

[Gilbert Cruz]

One of the other things that a movie can have to state the obvious is a connection to ip, which is a phrase that we've used intellectual property, franchises, pre existing sort of already baked lore. Lore or names that sort of do half the work already to getting people in theaters. Wicked is based on a very long chain of ip. It was never called IP back then. But you have a book that came out in 1900 and then you had a movie musical that came out in 1990, still one of the most famous American movies ever made, the wizard of Oz. And then you have this book in 1995 by Gregory Maguire. You have this musical in 2003, and now you have these two movies. Kyle, I'm wondering how much of the success of these two films you attribute to the fact that this is, you know, at least in America, sort of a story that's been around for so long and this is a part of the Oz ip. Exactly.

[Kyle Buchanan]

You know, this is an interesting test case because obviously I think that when we grew up, and I would wager most of the listeners, the wizard of Oz was ubiquitous. You would always see it on television.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

It was, you know, every Thanksgiving at grandma's house.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It aired on Thanksgiving film at least once a year for, for more than 30 years.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Certainly felt like one of the top three most famous movies ever made and probably one of the top three movies, movies most watched. You could pretty much count on anybody you met having watched that movie at some point. I'm not sure that that is true of the generation that is coming up. Would a 10 year old have seen the wizard of Oz as many times as we would have by 10? Or would a 10 year old have seen it at all? You know, they're not watching movies that are ubiquitous on TV because they're more prone to watch a roblox playthrough on YouTube. So I don't know that you just really depressed me. I'm sorry. Well, I'm saying that this might be an interesting case of the tail wagging the dog in the future that people will be coming to the wizard of Oz predominantly through Wicked and not the other way around. And it's gonna be particularly interesting because Wicked for good, the second film, really relies on how well you know the wizard of Oz, particularly the movie version of that, because the characters are getting into places, a lot is implied and I don't know if young kids today are going to get all those references.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

One thought just in terms of ip, Yellow Brick, Roblox, I think this is the tie in we've been looking for. I think that's right. But I also think there's a possibility where that makes Wicked for good more enjoyable to those viewers. Because I think if you have read the original book, you've seen the film a gajillion times and you come to Wicked, the twists at the ending are quite obvious. Right. It's not really a surprise. You go, oh yeah, we saw that coming a mile away. But if you can't see it coming a mile away, I can imagine the ending of this film would be that much more satisfying if, you know, scratchy faced scarecrow man comes as a genuine surprise to you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, I guess I was surprised that again, I have listened to the show and I've seen a scratchy bootleg. I guess I forgot how much the second act really ties into the wizard of Oz, which is a film. Maybe like Kyle, maybe like you, I've seen dozens and dozens of times, either in full or in part. And I just side note, if you are a parent and you have not shown your child the wizard of Oz already, shame on you. And you should do that immediately. It is one of the great things that this country has ever produced.

[Kyle Buchanan]

How did your son react when you showed him?

[Gilbert Cruz]

He loved it.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Was that post Wicked?

[Gilbert Cruz]

It was not post Wicked. I think we showed it to him.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Did it scare him?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yes, there were a couple parts that scared me.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Kids are going to be okay.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The Wicked Witch of the west in the 1939 musical is scary. There are lots of things that are weird about that movie and sort of offbeat, but it is beautiful and it is something that everyone should experience. So please show your children the wizard of Oz either before or after going to see this movie. This has been a public service announcement. So Wicked for good. As we said, it's sort of pitched to be one of the top grossing movies of the year. And Kyle, I'm wondering what is missing in movies that this movie is providing to viewers, Providing in the marketplace. It feels like it's sort of filling a hole that desperately wants to be filled in some way.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a really incredible contrast that can be drawn here at a time when it's hard to get almost every demographic to the movies. You have one demographic, young Girls who will not just go to the movies, but will go over and over. That repeat audience is why Wicked became such a phenomenon. And you can trace that back to movies like Barbie, even all the way back to Titanic. That if women really like something, as they do with, you know, K Pop, Demon Hunters or Wednesday, they will watch it multiple times. They will discuss it with their friends. Now they will make fan edits. You know, the. The bounds of their fandom and obsession are ultimately very lucrative in a way where I'm not sure that we actually have enough product coming out to satisfy, you know, probably the most loyal fan base there is, the most loyal demographic. So much of what we're seeing and what we're seeing not work is aimed at either young men or older audiences who simply aren't showing up. And then you have this. This slice of the demographic pie where they're not just showing up, they're showing up once, twice, three times, four times, and bringing their friends.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

So what he's saying is, could you hurry up with practical magic, too? We're waiting. We're ready. I've got 22 bucks ad nauseam.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Practical magic two, you've got devil Wears Prada, too, coming out. But then also, let's make more properties that I think, you know, young women want to feel like they've stumbled upon these things themselves, that they are part of the ground floor in making these things a hit.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Lady Bird, I think my mother's ears just perked up about an hour and a half away when she heard you say practical magic, too. There's no one who is more excited for this film. Tell her to call me Madison. I don't know if you would call yourself an Ozzien, but you have been part of a subset of this fandom from the beginning, before there was ever.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I was trying not to claim stolen Green Valor, but I think we've established that I am a longtime fan.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, Okay. I don't wanna speak for you.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I just wanna speak for the animals.

[Gilbert Cruz]

No one should speak for the animals. What was the. Can you tell us? What has the fandom for this been like? What was it like back when it was just on Broadway?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Yeah. Wicked has always been an extremely online musical because if you think about it, Wicked, the novel, boil it down, it's fanfic, which is a deeply online genre. And it's also quite obviously a story about being othered, whether that's as a queer person or a person of color or really, anyone who has any experience of feeling not part of the in group can Watch this show and really connect to it. And those are the communities that historically congregate in online spaces. Right? And that's chat rooms, forums, boards. So it makes perfect sense to me that the groups of people with whom this show resonates, present company included, then found themselves looking for the community who was also feeling that resonance. And we found it online. Broadway, also, for many, is an online experience. If you don't live here, if you can't afford to see an exorbitantly expensive show, that leaves you with the Internet. You said you watched a scratchy bootleg. A lot of people experience Broadway online through. And I'm not suggesting anyone film a Broadway show while they're sitting in it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

But do not do that.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Do not do that. It's rude. But. But people have and people do. And so for many fans of this show, getting to see it only happens through a camera that was snuck into a theater and then uploaded to YouTube.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay. I am still new to this world. So what are some of the ways in which fans, like, sort of engage with each other over Wicked?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I mean, some of my favorite Wicked rabbit holes are their entire compilations online of nights where the flying mechanism didn't work. No. Fly nights where Elphaba doesn't get off the ground. And so you've just kind of, you know, Idina, Menzel or whoever's standing in the middle of the stage at the Gershwin holding a broom on the ground, getting louder and louder, but not going up.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, no.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

And then there's also. My favorite compilations are people who are hyper analytical about the riffs in the show. So, like, the incredibly small differences between how actresses who have played these roles sing them, People get very obsessive about who their favorites are, being able to identify them within OneNote. It's an incredibly fun game online. I highly recommend if you haven't. Haven't spent some time in this corner of the Internet, I'll do that over Thanksgiving.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, we don't have anything this year approaching holding space, But. But still, once again, this has been a press tour, a marketing cycle that has been pretty intense. Madison, I know you have wanted to use green deodorant for your entire life. What is it like, as someone who has been a Wicked fan for so long, just to see sort of the overwhelming sort of wave of Wicked stuff out there?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I mean, it makes it, frankly, easier to tune out, Right? The same marketers who are in that room trying to figure out how to have their holding space moment should probably know that. I think at this point, Wicked fans who are gonna go see this movie a couple of times or feel very strongly about the musical. And I'm not gonna buy the pink ketchup. Like, I don't need the eyeshadow palette. I'm not gonna get the Crocs. I'm making all these up. I don't know if they exist. Just to be clear for our legal team who's listening, it just becomes pink and green noise. That one tunes out entirely. It's not lost on me that the only breakthrough moment of this, this film's press cycle is actually. And it sort of ties into the film, like quite violent and dark. It was a man who rushed Ariana Grande on a carpet in Singapore and Cynthia sort of like, steps in to protect her. It's this quite frightening moment. And that's, I think, the one moment of the press cycle that has really broken through the noise. This time less so, the pink and green ketchup.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Well, not to sound like a capitalist shill, but I think that, you know, for people who are going through their first round with Wicked, I think maybe they do want some of those. I mean, I'm surprised when I spoke to people for the first movie, friends of mine who I consider to be, you know, somewhat difficult to impress when it comes to film. And they fanned out so hard about Wicked, and I, you know, I found it somewhat out of character. And then I would find out that they owned the Grimory when they were 13. You know, great book.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Still, are they buying the ketchup?

[Gilbert Cruz]

So have we reached people Wicked? Like, what's next for this? It is. I've been sort of hesitant to call it a franchise because it's only two films, but it is part of, as we said, the sort of greater Wicked or greater wizard of Oz, decades long sort of intellectual property. Like, what could be next for this?

[Kyle Buchanan]

What's the afterlife of Wicked? Yeah, well, look, there's the lesson that I hope Hollywood would learn, which is to make more properties that are aimed at and for and that can empower young women. And then there's the lesson that I think Hollywood will learn, which is we should make more Wicked. I expect more spinoffs. I do think spinoff films, spinoff films or spin off anything, you know, animated prequels, some sort of Shiz University spinoff.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

There are some other books.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Yes. I mean, there's a lot that you could mine. But I think that this film ends in a way where if they made a standalone Glinda movie, you could see how they're setting that. And I'm curious to see if they'll follow through on that. Obviously, you know, they'd have to come up with songs and experiences that don't exist in the Broadway show, but they've already done that to some extent in these movies and I think they feel empowered to keep doing it as long as Ariana wants to.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, we have talked so much, possibly too much about Wicked. Madison's making a face. We are gonna.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

That is just my face.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Take a break and when we come back, we're going to end this episode as we do every week, with a little game Goat hater. I love my dog.

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[Gilbert Cruz]

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[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, Madison and Kyle, we're gonna wrap up this episode as we wrap up every episode with a game and today we're gonna set off down the yellow brick road toward the Emerald City. Are you two ready?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Very.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Let's Go.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do you have your ruby slippers?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Well, for purposes of copyright, they're silver.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do you have your little dog?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

And your little dog too, as well?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I've got three rounds for you, so please put your hands on your buzzers. Are you ready?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Let's do it.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Let's go.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, we're off to see the wizard. Round one is called if I Only Had a Brain. The answers to all of the questions in this round have a theme. Buzzing first with the right answer and you will get a point. Dr. Jonathan Crane is the alter ego of what fear toxin spewing Batman villain portrayed on screen by Cillian Murphy in Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Kyle the Scarecrow.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Scarecrow. That is correct. This British theater legend performed in his own plays, Blithe Spirits, Private Lives and Present Laughter. Kyle.

[Kyle Buchanan]

No Coward.

[Gilbert Cruz]

No coward. That is correct. This filmmaking icon and one time Oscar winner made his first short film, Last Hustle in Brooklyn while a student at Morehouse College. Kyle.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Spike Lee.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Spike Lee. Kyle. Oh, sorry, Busty. Spike Lee. That is correct. Slats, Jackie Tanner and Leo, all of whom have appeared in the logo for the Hollywood studio mgm, are what kind of animal, Madison?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

A lion.

[Gilbert Cruz]

A lion. That is correct. In 2011, Steven Spielberg and Peter Jackson teamed up to bring what Belgian comic book character, an intrepid reporter with a dog named Snowy, to the big screen?

[Kyle Buchanan]

That would be Tin Tin.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tin Tin. That is correct. This Hollywood actress met her husband while auditioning for the Cable Guy and went on to star in three of his films alongside the couple's two daughters, Maude and Iris. Kyle.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Leslie Mann.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Leslie Mann. Correct. To recap those answers, Scarecrow, Cowardly Lion. Tin Tin Man.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Man.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I think you get the theme.

[Kyle Buchanan]

It's lost on me.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, great. There's maybe no moment in musical theater that comes right from the heart as much as that final note at the end of Defying Gravity, the act One film, one finale in Wicked. I'm going to play you a recording of a notable person performing that moment and you tell me who the person is. And this is a note for Madison. These are not obscure Broadway actors. All right, Madison.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Idina Menzel.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Idina Menzel. That is correct. All right, next, Kyle.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I think that might be Keke Palmer.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is not Keke Palmer.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

She does a good one, though.

[Kyle Buchanan]

She does. I'm waiting for that one.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madison, do you want to give it a try?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Trish Paytas.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I don't know who that is. This, however, is Sabrina Carpenter. Oh, that was Sabrina Carpenter. Next, Madam.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Cynthia Erivo.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Cynthia Erivo. That is correct. Next one, Anyone.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Is that Ben Platt?

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is not Ben Platt. Madison. Kyle.

[Kyle Buchanan]

No clue.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is Paul Mescal.

[Kyle Buchanan]

What?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do you remember Glicken?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Kyle Buchanan]

As a phenomenon. Who made him do that?

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was from Saturday Night Live.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Uh huh.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, we have a couple more here. Next. I didn't think I was gonna win because. Kyle.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Well, that is keke palmer.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is definitely kiki palmer. Very good. Final one. I even hide myself trying to sing like Madison.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Is that Harvey Fierstein?

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is not Harvey Fierstein. That is Hank Azaria as his iconic character, Professor John I.Q. nerdlebaum Frink Jr. From the Simpsons.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Sure.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Obviously, Professor Frink. Final round. Round three, titled what Makes the Muskrat Guard his Musk? Ask Courage. This round is gonna take some guts. I'm gonna give you a category and you have to tell me how many items in that category you can name. Whoever says they can name more is gonna get a chance to try succeed, and you'll get a point. Fail, and your opponent gets the point. Kyle, you are currently in the lead, so you are going to go first. The first category is songs from Wicked For Good. How many items can you think you can name in that category?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Oh, my God, this is gonna be humiliating. I'm gonna say three.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madison, how many do you think you can name?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Four. I definitely can't do five.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madison, you picked one more than Kyle, which is kind of a cheap way to do this.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Cowardly lion, baby.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You have to name four songs from Wicked for good.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

For good.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

The Girl in the Bubble.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

No good deed.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is also correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

As long as you're mine.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is also correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

You want me to keep going?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Keep going.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Just keep going.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Sentimental man. Reprise the Wicked Witch of the East. Wonderful. That new one they wrote for Cynthia about the Yellowbird Road that I don't remember the name of.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I believe it's called no Place Like Home.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Oh, okay, great. No Place Like Home. The one on the gaping maw of the yellow brick road hole.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, you proved your bona fides. You won that round. Very good.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Thank you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I would have been disappointed if you hadn't.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Yeah, same.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, next category is Movies that Take Place in Oz. Okay, Madison, how many movies that take place in Oz do you think you can name?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Three.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is so low. Kyle, how many movies that take place in Oz do you think you can name?

[Kyle Buchanan]

5.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madison, you can't do 6. Since this is your move.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Absolutely not.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay. All right. It's good to know Oneself. Kyle, you're on.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Well, obviously Wicked and Wicked for good.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That's two.

[Kyle Buchanan]

The wizard of Oz. We're at three already. Return to Oz if you want to really freak your kids out.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is a weird one.

[Kyle Buchanan]

And then Sam Raimi's Oz, the Great and Powerful.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct. Very good. Do you want to keep going?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

And does Australia count?

[Gilbert Cruz]

What is that?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Oz.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The Land of Oz, starring the boy from Oz.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Yeah, exactly. Great. I'm in. I'm back.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Does that count?

[Madison Malone Kircher]

I'm back in.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Kyle, you won that category. Very good. We are down to our final category in our final round. This is a big one. Musicals that were nominated for Best Picture. How many musicals are nominated for Best Picture? Kyle, do you think you can name?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Oh, man. Nominated for Best Picture. That's interesting, because they didn't have to win.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Correct. That's what that means.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I'm just gonna go with five.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Conservatively, you guys, these are low numbers. Madison, how many musicals nominated for Best Picture do you think you can name it's final round? 6. What are you doing? Kyle, do you think you can name more than six?

[Kyle Buchanan]

I want to watch Madison do it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, boy. That is cruel. Also hilarious. Madison, you're up. You have to name six movies that were nominated for Best picture.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Les Mis.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

West side Story.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Wicked Part One.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

La La Land.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is correct.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

In the Heights.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is not correct.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Wow.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Tough break.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right. You were so close. You did very, very poorly. Well, Kyle, you're gonna get the point. That was a good strategy on your part, but I just. I wanna hear you name some more.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I'll add two more to those. Chicago, which won.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Mm.

[Kyle Buchanan]

And the Spielberg west side Story, which was also.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Oh, that's cheating.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Hey, well, it counts.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Let's end this round by asking very quickly, what's your favorite movie musical?

[Kyle Buchanan]

Oh, man.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Hello, Dolly.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Hello, Dolly. That's good.

[Kyle Buchanan]

You know, honestly, for me, the Sound of Music.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The Sound of Music. Mine is My Fair Lady. And it pains me to say this, but literally all three of the movies that we just mentioned were nominated for Best Picture. Neither of you guessed them. Which is fine. Nobody's perfect. So they say. The more perfect competitor today, however, is Kyle. Kyle, you have won. You flew all the way from Los Angeles to win this game, to win an actual prize.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Oh, is it a bounty of gold bricks?

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is not. That would not have fit in this cheap tote bag that I have here.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Okay?

[Gilbert Cruz]

However, the thing inside is even cheaper than the tote bag. It is a plastic trophy with my face on it.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Oh, wow.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We call it the Gilby.

[Kyle Buchanan]

I'm treasuring this. This is incredible.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Congrat. Congratulations. I don't know what they would say it. Oz.

[Kyle Buchanan]

It is gold.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is gold.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Wow.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well done.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Congratulations, Kyle.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Thank you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That's so nice of you to say, Madison. Thank you both for coming on.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Thank you. And I feel like Madison and I had a nice, good Elphaba Glinda rivalry that deepened into true friendship.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Put your finger out again so she could hold it.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

This is where we do the musical number, right? I was told there would be a musical number. That's why I showed up.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madison, thank you for. For coming on.

[Madison Malone Kircher]

Thanks for having me.

[Kyle Buchanan]

Take us out with a riff, Madison. That was gold.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This episode was produced by Kate lopresti with help from Alex Barron, who's also our quizmaster, Luke Van Der Plug and Dalia Haddad. It was edited by Wendy Duration and engineered by Rowan Nimisto. Original music by Dan Powell, Elisheba Etoupe and Diane Wong. Special thanks to Paula Schumann. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

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