The Daily: Sunday Special – Wicked, Good?

Date: November 23, 2025
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guests: Kyle Buchanan (Hollywood columnist, NYT), Madison Malone Kircher (Internet culture reporter, NYT)

Episode Overview

This Sunday special dives deep into the pop culture phenomenon of Wicked’s two-part film adaptation, focusing on the just-released Wicked for Good (Part 2). Gilbert Cruz is joined by Kyle Buchanan and Madison Malone Kircher to discuss the films’ impact, their faithfulness to the original Broadway musical, adaptation challenges, internet fandom, critical reception, and the future of movie musicals in a struggling Hollywood landscape. The episode balances earnest critique, humor, and playful rivalry—capped with a musical theater quiz.

1. The Panel’s Relationship to Wicked

[01:04 – 04:03]

• Hosts' Backgrounds:
  • Gilbert Cruz: Hadn't seen Broadway's Wicked but watched the first film multiple times, enjoyed it, and recently saw the sequel.
  • Kyle Buchanan: Came to Wicked as a “virgin,” never seeing the stage show, which he believes gave him a “clean perspective” (01:43).
    • "I actually think that gave me a very sort of clean perspective on the movie project itself." – Kyle Buchanan [01:43]
  • Madison Malone Kircher: A long-time theater fan who saw Wicked on Broadway, recalling the post-pandemic reopening as “for lack of a better word, magical.” [02:23-02:58]
    • "Being there that night was, for lack of a better word, magical." – Madison Malone Kircher [02:58]
    • Sang “For Good” at her 8th grade graduation, citing Wicked as formative.

2. Two-Film Adaptation: From Skepticism to Phenomenon

[04:03 – 06:27]

• The creative choice to split the story into two films received early skepticism, especially over whether the second would have enough plot and strong songs.
• The first movie was a cultural and financial blockbuster and earned a Best Picture nomination—a fact that still surprises the panel (04:53).
  • “Which I still think is crazy.” – Gilbert Cruz [04:53]
• Quick recap of Wicked’s story and core characters—Elphaba (Wicked Witch), Glinda (Good Witch), their friendship at Shiz University, ending act one with “Defying Gravity.”

3. Skepticism Around Movie Musicals

[05:48 – 07:42]

• Musicals often struggle in film adaptation (Les Miserables, Phantom of the Opera) or outright bomb (Cats, Dear Evan Hansen).
• The cast and production team were aware of the challenge; “not a done deal” Wicked would succeed.
  • "So it was not a done deal at all that Wicked would be a success. And in fact, I think that's why it took so long to get off the ground." – Kyle Buchanan [05:48]
• Hollywood history of musical adaptation, with cycles of success and failure.
• The panel reminisces (humorously) about Les Mis and Russell Crowe’s controversial casting [07:02].

4. The Marketing Machine and Press Tour Hype

[07:42 – 10:16]

• Discusses the nearly non-stop Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo press tour, omnipresent and “adjacent costuming.”
• The most viral moment: “holding space for Defying Gravity”—a meme spawned by an awkward press junket where an interviewer badly misused therapy-speak, charmingly confusing both leads [08:01+].
  • “You could not forget. You could not escape it.” – Madison about the press tour [07:54]
  • “The moment continued to heighten, heighten, heighten, until it reached an absolutely absurd place.” – Kyle Buchanan [09:00]

5. Wicked for Good: Film Critique, Adaptation Struggles & Character Arcs

[10:26 – 18:54]

• Opening recap: The sequel picks up with a time jump; Elphaba is a fugitive after being branded, Glinda is now a figurehead for propaganda, and undertones of oppression and resistance are more explicit.
• Madison unpacks why adapting act two is tough—less plot, fewer songs, and “the songs that we, the musical theater girlies, skip.” [11:51]
  • "Frankly, I'm so sorry to anyone out here who's in this for the Wizard. ...these are the songs that we, the musical theater girlies, skip." – Madison [12:26]
  • The act functions as connective tissue to canon: “The second act exists to tie all those things together and make you go, oh, and then you get 'For Good' and we all cry.” [12:39]
• Kyle observes that for newcomers, Part 1 felt complete—Part 2 feels more like “an extended coda” whose appeal is in spending more time with beloved characters [13:20].
  • “It doesn't feel necessarily like a complete and urgent movie in the way that the first one does. But I do think it works as sort of an extended coda...” – Kyle Buchanan [13:20]
• Ariana Grande’s Glinda gets deeper character focus in the sequel. The director signaled this by printing the script on pink pages; Glinda’s arc is “the most interesting conflict here.” [14:26]
• Madison’s blunt review of Wicked for Good: “Horrendous. Hideous. ...It just felt thin.” Songs and politics are “heavy-handed”—the “magic” is missing. [15:23-16:28]
• Debate over the political allegory (animal rights/propaganda), with playful ribbing about Gilbert’s anti-animal attitudes; confusion about Oz’s political system provides comic relief [18:54+].
  • “Do we care this much about the animals of Oz?” – Gilbert [18:20]

6. Emotional Highs, Standout Moments & LGBTQ Resonance

[19:24 – 24:25]

• Both praise “For Good” and an emotionally charged (if platonic) scene between Glinda and Elphaba, staged with a door between them [19:49].
• Madison dishes on the “racy” love scene between Elphaba and Fiyero, with surprising “heat” for a PG film [20:54+].
  • “I was honestly surprised to get even just the amount of bare shoulders, the very strong implication that these two characters had.” – Kyle Buchanan [22:23]
• The real “love story” is the friendship and emotional connection between the two leads.
  • “That is really the love story that this entire franchise is about, right? The relationship between these two women.” – Madison [23:01]
• The cast’s chemistry humanizes the film, creating “remarkably human sized” moments in an epic production. [24:00]
  • “They’re not afraid to play these characters very real and intimate and small, which I think makes the big moments feel even bigger.” – Kyle Buchanan [24:00]

7. Hollywood’s Box Office Crisis (and Wicked’s Counterexample)

[26:42 – 33:16]

• Recent box office has been dismal, even for star-led films; audiences want “event” movies that are culturally required viewing, making Wicked uniquely positioned for success. [27:33+]
  • “They felt like events. … If you don't see Sinners in IMAX 70...are you really doing it right, bro?” – Kyle Buchanan [27:46]
• Wicked’s chain of “IP” is key to its draw, tying together 120+ years of Oz lore. [29:48]
• Kyle questions whether young audiences even know The Wizard of Oz: “Would a 10-year-old have seen the Wizard of Oz as many times as we would have by 10?...This might be an interesting case of the tail wagging the dog—that people will be coming to the Wizard of Oz predominantly through Wicked and not the other way around.” [30:06]
• Wicked for Good leans heavily on references to the original movie, which may go over kids’ heads—or make the twists fresher for those unfamiliar.
  • “If you can't see it coming a mile away, ...the ending of this film would be that much more satisfying if...it comes as a genuine surprise to you.” – Madison [31:53]
• PSA: Parents, show your kids The Wizard of Oz, proclaims Gilbert [32:34].

8. The Power of Female Fandom

[33:16 – 35:07]

• Wicked’s success is powered by young women, echoing Barbie, Titanic, K-pop, etc. Their repeat viewership and online enthusiasm are unparalleled—a demographic Hollywood insufficiently serves. [33:16]
  • “If women really like something...they will watch it multiple times. ...The bounds of their fandom and obsession are ultimately very lucrative...” – Kyle [33:16]
• There’s playful wishful thinking (and capitalist realism) about more young-women-focused properties like Practical Magic 2 and Devil Wears Prada 2. [34:26]

9. Online Fandom & The Wicked Community

[35:07 – 36:48]

• Wicked has always been “extremely online,” due to its fanfic roots and themes of “being othered.” Fandoms congregated in chat rooms, forums, and now video bootlegs, as not everyone can make it to Broadway.
  • "For many, Broadway is an online experience." – Madison [35:07]
• Fans obsess over mishaps (“no-fly nights” when Elphaba doesn’t fly), and over-the-top dissections of vocal runs, making for a lively digital fan culture. [36:48]

10. Intense Marketing, Press Cycles & Cultural Saturation

[37:56 – 39:51]

• The onslaught of Wicked-themed merch and marketing is now “pink and green noise” for diehard fans; the only real viral moment was an actual real-life incident (Ariana being rushed by a fan in Singapore, saved by Cynthia). [38:24]
  • “I'm not gonna buy the pink ketchup. Like, I don't need the eyeshadow palette...it just becomes pink and green noise.” – Madison [38:24]

11. The Inevitable “Wicked” Franchise Question

[39:53 – 41:08]

• Will Hollywood chase more “empowering content for women” or just churn out more Wicked sequels and spin-offs? Both, probably.
• Discussion of possible spin-offs (Shiz University?), animated prequels, and more, noting there’s book source material to mine if the studio wants.

12. Podcast Game Segment: "Off to See the Wizard"

[43:16 – 53:33]
(A light-hearted, competitive quiz covers:)

• Wizard of Oz-related pop culture (e.g., Scarecrow, Cowardly Lion, Tin Man, films set in Oz)

• Famous renditions of “Defying Gravity” (with humorous celebrity impersonations)

• Naming as many “Wicked for Good” songs, Oz films, or musicals Oscar-nominated for Best Picture as possible

• The quiz maintains a playful, nerdy tone, with Madison and Kyle swapping friendly verbal jabs, culminating in “The Gilby”—a gag trophy.

  • Memorable exchange:
    • “I'm treasuring this. This is incredible.” – Kyle, upon winning the trophy [53:34]
    • “Put your finger out again so she could hold it.” – Gilbert, referencing the iconic “holding space” meme [53:57]

13. Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the cultural power of Wicked's fandom:
  “So much of what we're seeing and what we're seeing not work is aimed at either young men or older audiences who simply aren't showing up. And then you have this. This slice of the demographic pie where they're not just showing up, they're showing up once, twice, three times, four times, and bringing their friends.” – Kyle Buchanan [33:16]

• On the second film's themes:
  “It all but stops short of having Ariana, you know, poke the bubble in the air.” – Madison Malone Kircher on new, heavy-handed songs [16:01]

• On speculative future spin-offs:
  “Some sort of Shiz University spinoff.” – Kyle Buchanan [40:36]

• On the movie industry's struggles:
  “It’s been rough, man... a lot of these films have been underperforming, no matter the star power.” – Kyle Buchanan [27:33]

• On the meaningfulness of the Elphaba-Glinda bond:
  “That is really the love story that this entire franchise is about, right? The relationship between these two women.” – Madison Malone Kircher [23:01]

• On the “holding space” meme:
  “The moment continued to heighten, heighten, heighten, until it reached an absolutely absurd place.” – Kyle Buchanan [09:00]

14. Final Thoughts

The episode closes recognizing Wicked’s unique position in both box office and online pop culture—drawing crowds as Hollywood falters, sparking memes, inspiring intense fandom, and centering women in ways few blockbusters do. There is genuine affection, critique, and admiration from the panel for the film’s human emotional core—even when the adaptation and politics feel heavy-handed. It's a celebration of pop and theater convergence, internet frenzy, and the powerful intersection of nostalgia, IP, and community.

Recommended Segments & Timestamps

• Panelist intros/love for Wicked: [01:04–04:03]
• The first film’s unexpected blockbuster status: [04:03–06:27]
• The press tour and “holding space for Defying Gravity” meme: [07:42–10:16]
• Critique of Wicked for Good adaptation: [11:51–16:28]
• Animal rights themes and political allegory debate: [17:01–18:54]
• Emotional, LGBTQ+ resonance and favorite moments: [19:24–24:25]
• Why fans (especially young women) power these successes: [33:16–35:07]
• Fandom: online bootlegs, viral mishaps, and internet tradition: [35:07–36:48]
• The future of the Wicked “franchise”: [39:53–41:08]
• Quiz/game segment for Wizard of Oz superfans: [43:16–53:33]

This summary captures the episode’s thoughtful criticisms, pop culture insights, and playful in-jokes for both superfans and newcomers to Oz—leaving listeners informed, entertained, and, perhaps, a bit more “wicked-pilled.”