The Aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s Killing

Summary

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The Daily: The Aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s Death

Date: September 12, 2025
Hosted by: Michael Barbaro
Guests: Nicholas Bogle Burrows, Alan Foyer

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Overview

This episode of The Daily examines the immediate fallout from the assassination of conservative leader Charlie Kirk. Host Michael Barbaro speaks with Times reporters Nicholas Bogle Burrows and Alan Foyer, delving into gaps and confusion in the ongoing police investigation as well as the intense, deeply polarized political response. The conversation highlights why authorities struggled to identify the suspect and explores how both major parties and their respective bases responded — with Democrats largely condemning the attack and Republicans uniting around blame for the left.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Confusion and Struggles in the Manhunt (00:26–12:09)

• Initial Uncertainty: Despite ample video footage and rapid information spread online, police have “incredibly little” information about the identity or motivation of the shooter.

  • Quote (Nicholas Bogle Burrows, 01:38): “We do not know who carried out this attack and we don’t know that person’s motivations. It’s been 30 hours… almost nothing about the person who did this.”

• Mistaken Identity & Police Missteps: Police twice detained and released men with no connection to the shooting, amplifying public and online confusion. Both men endured damaging public scrutiny before being cleared.

  • Quote (Michael Barbaro, 03:17): “The names of these two men get widely circulated and their reputations were widely maligned, and it turns out they had nothing to do with it.”

• Suspect Identification Challenges: Police and FBI released grainy surveillance images, seeking public assistance in identifying the suspect—an unusual move signifying investigative difficulties.

  • Quote (Nicholas Bogle Burrows, 03:27): “A few hours later, the FBI posts two grainy surveillance images… That’s a pretty clear indication that they were not able to identify him through other means.”

• Security Lapses: Unlike a presidential event, Kirk’s rally had minimal police (6 officers) for a 3,000-person crowd, reflecting an underestimation of risk.

  • Quote (05:35): “It’s not the kind of thing that is planned for in the same way, though, that a presidential rally or a political rally would be.”

• Escape and Investigation Details:

  • Shooter used a bolt-action rifle from a roof, fired one shot, fled through a wooded area, and managed to escape quickly; police found the rifle ditched nearby but have little trace beyond that.
  • Quote (Nicholas Bogle Burrows, 07:51): “The police have not been clear about those details or whether they know those details. The one thing that they have indicated is that he went through some wooded area where he ditched the gun. That’s it.”

• Speculation on Motive: Reports of ammunition engraved with “transgender anti-fascist ideology” are unconfirmed, and police have not clarified motive.

  • Quote (Nicholas Bogle Burrows, 08:12): “There’s been reporting ... that suggest(s) some of the ammunition ... was engraved with ... transgender anti fascist ideology. ... There’s very little evidence of any motive.”

• Manhunt Comparison: This situation is highly unusual; in past manhunts, the suspect was known and usually caught nearby. Here, they don't even know who to look for.

  • Quote (Nicholas Bogle Burrows, 09:37): “The unique aspect of this is ... we have no name, that we don’t know who did this.”

• Federal Pressure: FBI Director Cash Patel and his deputy, Dan Bongino, both closely tied to the Trump administration, have flown to Utah to take control, signaling intense political pressure.

  • Quote (Michael Barbaro, 10:41): “Should that be seen as a sign that they are frustrated with where this investigation stands and how little has been confirmed?”
  • Quote (Nicholas Bogle Burrows, 11:08): “You have to imagine that there’s pressure from Trump all the way down for the FBI to solve this crime.”

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2. Political Fallout: Responses from the Left and the Right (13:28–26:21)

Democratic Response

• Swift and Unified Condemnation: Democratic elected officials, from President Obama to Governor Gavin Newsom, condemned the assassination as an attack on democracy.

  • Quote (Gavin Newsom, 14:28): “The attack on Charlie Kirk is disgusting, vile and reprehensible.”
  • Quote (Barack Obama, 14:31): “We don’t know yet what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy.”

• Fringe Reactions: Some social media users on the left expressed approval or mocked Kirk given his stance on gun rights, but these views did not overlap with official Democratic statements.

  • Quote (Alan Foyer, 15:16): “Were there people who held up things that Charlie Kirk had said during his career, even in the moments after his death, to throw his own words back in his face about things like, you know, his belief in gun rights? Yes, there were.”
  • Quote (Michael Barbaro, 16:00): “That was absolutely out there. Yes, but it was not... the official reaction of elected Democrats.”

Republican Response

• From Grief to Fury: Conservative reactions quickly transformed from shock to explicit rage, blaming the left for fostering a “climate of violence” and in some cases, calling for vengeance.

  • Quote (Alan Foyer, 16:19): “What began as sort of shock and sorrow, it transformed pretty quickly ... into a kind of almost vengeful rage.”
  • Quote (Various right-wing personalities, 16:57): “He was hunted. ... We’re either in a civil war ... It’s war, motherfuckers. We’re coming for you.”

• Elected Officials and Trump:

  • Republican lawmakers in Congress and President Trump directly blamed the left, invoking historical analogies with “Marx and Stalin and Lenin and Pol Pot and Fidel Castro.”
    • Quote (Michael Barbaro, 17:38): “Leftist Marx and Stalin and Lenin and Pol Pot and Fidel Castro did.”
    • Quote (Trump, 17:51): “For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world’s worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we’re seeing in our country today.”
  • Trump promised punishment for not just the shooter but “those who contributed to this atrocity... including the organizations that fund it and support it.”
    • Quote (Trump, 18:48): “My administration will find each and every one of those who contributed to this atrocity… as well as those who go after our judges, law enforcement officials, and everyone else who brings order to our country.”

• Collapse Between Fringe & Officialdom: Alan Foyer observes a convergence on the right between the fringe voices and official messaging, unlike the distinction seen among Democrats.

  • Quote (Alan Foyer, 21:09): “On the right, you kind of have a synthesis of... the people outside of power and the people inside of power more or less saying the same thing... where, as on the other side of the aisle, there’s a real divide.”
  • Quote (21:39): “It’s worth recalling a couple of weeks ago, Stephen Miller... called the Democratic Party, the entire Democratic Party, a domestic extremist organization.”

Risks of Escalated Rhetoric

• Potential for More Violence: Experts warn that three ingredients are needed for political violence: an agitated populace, a triggering event, and a focal point. Two out of three are now present.

  • Quote (Alan Foyer, 22:44): “One of them is a riled up populace. ... There has to be a sort of triggering event, right? ... The third thing that experts will tell you is needed is a kind of focal point for the action.”

• Dangers of Political Demonization: The use of blanket accusations — especially by those in power — risks lowering barriers to real-world violence.

  • Quote (Alan Foyer, 25:39): “The use of that incendiary rhetoric is just a bad thing for democracy, period. Because the more that we permit ourselves ... to engage in this kind of violent rhetoric, the more we invite violence itself.”

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3. Symbolism and Next Steps (26:35–28:22)

• State Recognition: Vice President J.D. Vance personally escorted Kirk’s casket via Air Force Two, underlining Kirk’s stature within the Trump administration.
  • Quote (Michael Barbaro, 26:35): “Vice President J.D. Vance flew to Utah to greet Kirk’s casket at the airport and to return it aboard Air Force Two to Kirk’s family in Arizona.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We do not know who carried out this attack and we don’t know that person’s motivations.” – Nicholas Bogle Burrows (01:38)
• “The attack on Charlie Kirk is disgusting, vile and reprehensible.” – Governor Gavin Newsom (14:28)
• “He was hunted.” – Conservative social media personality (16:56)
• “For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis… This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we’re seeing in our country today.” – President Trump (18:22)
• “It’s worth recalling that a couple of weeks ago, Stephen Miller… called the Democratic Party, the entire Democratic Party, a domestic extremist organization.” – Alan Foyer (21:39)
• “The use of that incendiary rhetoric is just a bad thing for democracy, period.” – Alan Foyer (25:39)
• “The more we permit ourselves... to engage in this kind of violent rhetoric, the more we invite violence itself.” – Alan Foyer (25:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:26 — Overview and introduction to the investigation
• 02:10 — Confusion over suspect identities and police detentions
• 03:27 — Police/FBI appeal for public help in identifying suspect
• 05:21 — Analysis of security and crowd control failures
• 06:05 — Shooter movement and escape; details from surveillance
• 07:53 — Rumors and ambiguity about ammunition "messages"
• 09:37 — Comparison to other manhunts; investigative challenges
• 10:41 — Political pressure as FBI takes direct control
• 13:28 — Political fallout segment introduction
• 14:28 — Official Democratic condemnations
• 16:19 — Right-wing response: rage and blame
• 17:51 — Trump’s public remarks on the assassination
• 21:39 — Analysis of right-wing rhetoric collapse between fringe and power
• 22:44 — Ingredients and dangers of political violence
• 25:39 — Reflections on rhetoric, violence, and democratic risk
• 26:35 — Casket returned with VP’s escort; closing symbol

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Tone

The episode maintains The Daily’s hallmark: direct, measured, and analytical conversation. Guests provide careful reporting and nuanced analysis, while Barbaro elicits clarity on emotional and political tension. There is urgency and worry in the discussions around political rhetoric and violence, but a commitment to fact over speculation.

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Summary

In the wake of Charlie Kirk’s assassination, authorities faced confusion and lacked viable leads, struggling in both identifying the shooter and understanding his motive. The delay and uncertainty fueled political reactions: Democrats, especially elected officials, condemned the violence unequivocally, while a collapse between Republican officials and base saw the right swiftly and vocally blame the left and stoke existential conflict. Experts caution that, with rhetorical escalation and a catalyzing event, the United States teeters on the edge of further violence — underlining the critical risk of treating political opponents as mortal enemies. The episode closes with high-level recognition of Kirk’s place in the Trump administration, symbolized by the Vice President himself returning his casket home.

Transcript

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[Michael Bavaro]

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is the Daily Today, the political fallout from Charlie Kirk's murder and the manhunt for his killer. I speak with my colleague Nicholas Bogle Burrows about why police are struggling to answer basic questions about the shooter and to Alan Foyer about how the assassination may be a turning point for the conservative movement. It's Friday, September 12th.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Nick, we are talking to you at about 6:35pm Eastern Time and I just want to start by asking you what we know about who carried out this assassination against Charlie Kirk and what we know about why they may have carried this out.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

We know incredibly little about both of those questions. We do not know who carried out this attack and we don't know that person's motivations. It's been 30 hours since this assassination took place and everyone's seen all these videos that have come out from the scene. There's an incredible wealth of information about what happened, but almost nothing about the person who did this.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

And it felt like from the very beginning there was a lot of confusion and mistaken identity.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Absolutely. I mean, as we've seen time and time again, unfortunately there is a very quick response on the part of people online, self identified sleuths to try to figure out who it could have been. And in this case also some wrong guesses by the police. It seems there was two instances where people were taken into custody and questioned and in both cases the police determined that those people had nothing to do with it and they were released.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

And were they both people on the scene? Is that the primary rationale for detaining them?

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Yeah, we don't know exactly why each of these people were detained, but one was an older man who's a political gadfly in Utah. People had a lot of familiarity with him, him and he was cuffed right away, questioned presumably about what had happened and then, you know, determined to not have anything to do with this. The other person was a guy who seemed to just be in attendance of this rally. I don't know why that person was brought in by the police, but they were very clear today that he was questioned and let go. And they said, you know, please don't harass him and his family.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

We should say in both cases, the names of these two men get widely circulated and their reputations were widely maligned, and it turns out they had nothing to do with it.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

That's right. And what happened then on Thursday morning was the police said that they had found on various surveillance video images of the person that they believed was the gunman. This is now the third person that they considered a person of interest. They said, if we can't identify him on our own, we will seek the media's help in dispersing this picture. Lo and behold, a few hours later, the FBI posts two grainy surveillance images onto social media of the person that they believe is the suspect. So that's a pretty clear indication that they were not able to identify him through other means. And we're now seeking the public's help.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

I mean, what's your sense, Nick, about how it's possible? We've gotten into the place we are where somebody carried out the assassination of Charlie Kirk, this enormously influential conservative leader, in an exceptional public place and was able to flee with what appears to have been such ease.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

I think it helps to understand it by considering that it's not like an assassination attempt on Trump. It's not like a rally where you have the Secret Service and you have, you know, hundreds of police officers or, you know, extensive planning about the environment around a stage. This is an event that brought 3,000 people to a Utah college campus. And the university police chief said that they had six officers working security, plus Charlie Kirk's security team that he brings with him. Charlie Kirk is someone who's gone to a huge number of campuses, has had very controversial events, events that bring a lot of anger and support, and it's not the kind of thing that is planned for in the same way, though, that a presidential rally or a political rally would be.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right. This ratio you're describing of police to 3,000 crowd suggests that the people involved in putting this event together and even the security team around Charlie Kirk just didn't see him as a major target.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

I think that's right. And I think also if you look at what the police have outlined as happening, I mean, this is a pretty extreme attack. This is a single gunshot from the roof of a building from far behind where the crowd is.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right. I mean, you're starting to do this. But describe, in the absence of an understanding of who did this and why they did it, what the police do know about the movements of this shooter who did what he did, and so far has gotten away with it.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Right. So they say that they have surveillance footage that shows him arriving near the campus around 11:52am local time, that they then can track him as he moves into a building and up a stairwell and onto the roof of this building that looks down over a basically amphitheater where Charlie Kirk was speaking.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right. Kind of an outdoor quad looking space on campus.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Exactly. And up on this roof, the shooter has a high powered bolt action rifle. The police say he fired that single shot and then ran to another side of the roof where he was able to jump down from it.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

And I recall that there is some video of him running across the roof.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Right. There's a video that captures someone, presumably the shooter, running across the roof right after the shooting has taken place. Just looking, exploring the geography of this campus has been really interesting because it really looks like the gunman would have had the ability to take that shot, go back to another side of the roof, jump down, and then very, very quickly be off campus. He's basically on the edge of campus. The police said that they recovered that rifle that they think he used from a wooded area right near the campus. And they've spent much of the last 30 hours combing through this area, speaking with neighbors, speaking with folks who live there.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Do we know anything about how he left the campus, what direction he went in, if it was on foot, if it was in a car, anything.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

The police have not been clear about those details or whether they know those details. The one thing that they have indicated is that he went through some wooded area where he ditched the gun.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

That's it.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

That's it.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

There has been a report circulating throughout Thursday that I want to better understand. It revolves around the casings from the weapon that was fired at this scene from this rifle. And I wonder if you can tell us about that and how much attention we should be paying to those casings.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

To be very clear, the truth is, I don't know yet, and I think very few people do. There's been reporting in a couple of outlets that suggest that some of the ammunition that was left with the gun was engraved with. And this is the phrasing that they're using transgender anti fascist ideology.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right. And this made its way into a law enforcement bulletin.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Right. This is something that was circulated among some group of law enforcement. Our reporting has been very unclear on how accurate that is. And at this point there's very little evidence of any motive. I also haven't seen in Any of those reports what that actual marking that's supposedly on the ammunition would actually say. It's only been described in this sort of vague way. Second or third hand. You know, we have a whole team of reporters trying to figure it out. We're all very interested in what the motive is for this attack. And right now we don't know.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

You've covered a lot of manhunts in your career. Does everything you're describing here feel typical? Sometimes people do get away for some period of time. Frequently they're caught in the end. Or does this all feel, especially the confusion in the beginning, the detentions and the releases, a little bit bumbling? Especially given the stakes and the profile of Charlie Kirk.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

When something this high profile happens, you certainly expect that the person who carried it out is going to be taken into custody very quickly. The unique aspect of this is the fact that we have no name, that we don't know who did this. It's not just we're looking for this guy, it's we want to know who this guy is. I think that's very unusual. When I think of other manhunts in recent years in Maine or Montana, it was always, here's the guy we're looking for and we're narrowing in on him. And maybe it takes a few days. In almost every manhunt I've covered, the person has been found very close to where the crime took place. They've been scrounging for food or in someone's backyard. I don't want to speculate too much, but if this person had a plan before carrying this out. There's a lot of things you can do in 30 hours when the police don't know who you are. I mean, you could try to leave the country, you could try to leave the state, you could drive a far distance, you could get on a train. There's a lot less risk when the police don't have a flag out for your name.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

I have to wonder if that helps explain why. Over the past few hours, we have seen the director of the FBI, Cash Patel, and his number two, Dan Bongino, both prominent conservative figures in their own right, announced that they are headed to Utah to oversee this investigation. Should that be seen as a sign that they are frustrated with where this investigation stands and how little has been confirmed?

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

I think it could be that. I think this is, of course, just an incredibly high profile investigation into an assassination. I think you're right that the pressure is certainly on the FBI director was the person who was saying shortly after the shooting, that there was a subject in custody, and that ended up being one of the two people that they had to release. But also this is someone, Charlie Kirk, who was very close with many members of Trump's administration, with Trump himself. And so you have to imagine that there's pressure from Trump all the way down for the FBI to solve this crime. And I think until that happens, there's going to be a void there and there's going to be speculation about the motive and other things that increasingly fills that void.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Well, Nick, thank you very much.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Thank you, Michael.

[Michael Bavaro]

After the break, Alan Foyer on the political fallout from Kirk's assassination. We'll be right back.

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[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

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[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

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[Ad Council Representative]

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[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

I can immediately navigate to something that.

[Alan Foyer]

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[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

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[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

I loved how much content it exposed.

[Alan Foyer]

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[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

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[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

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[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Alan it feels like from the moment that Charlie Kirk was assassinated, it was pretty clear given who he was, given the volatility of the moment, that the reactions to this were gonna be big and they were gonna be very closely watched on both sides of the political aisle, from official party leaders to the fringes. And that has absolutely been the case. And I'm curious what has struck you about it so far?

[Alan Foyer]

Sure. So if you wanna start on the left, probably the most palpable reaction was a very rapid and vocal condemnation of this assassination by establishment Democrats.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Obviously a flurry of social media posts from political leaders following the news of the shooting.

[Alan Foyer]

Political elected officials from Gavin Newsom, Governor.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Gavin Newsom putting out a statement saying.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Quote, the attack on Charlie Kirk is.

[Alan Foyer]

Disgusting, vile and reprehensible to Barack Obama. President Obama here saying, we don't know yet what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. To Senator Chris Murphy, who took a moment on the floor of the Senate Senator from Connecticut to condemn this attack. We are all horrified watching images and following the news out of Utah. And we are sending all of our thoughts to Mr. Kirk to his family. So, I mean, that said, were there people on the Internet in a kind of gleeful way celebrating the killing of Charlie Kirk?

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Do you support his death?

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

I do.

[Alan Foyer]

Yes, there were.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

You support Charlie Kirk being killed?

[Ad Council Representative]

Yes, I do.

[Alan Foyer]

Were there people who held up things that Charlie Kirk had said during his career, even in the moments after his death, to throw his own words back in his face about things like, you know, his belief in gun rights?

[Capital One Advertiser]

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[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

A weird hill to die on, consider that you might actually have to die on that hill.

[Alan Foyer]

Yes, yes, there were.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right. In fact, some of that was happening even in the comments section of New York Times articles. This non official, kind of very online, liberal Democratic viewpoint that Charlie Kirk reaped what he sowed. That was absolutely out there. Yes, but it was not, you're saying at all the official reaction of elected Democrats.

[Alan Foyer]

No, there was. There, I think there was a pretty stark divide, I thought. I think you saw official Democrats, people who, who actually hold power, really move quickly to condemn this. But on the right, things look very different.

[Donald Trump]

I just murdered Charlie Kirk right here in Utah. I'm so freaking pissed right now.

[Alan Foyer]

I love that guy. What began as sort of shock and sorrow, it transformed pretty quickly, you liberal progressive, deranged animals, into a kind of almost vengeful rage.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

And who is. Who's saying that? Who's articulating that message?

[Alan Foyer]

Well, I mean, you've got, you know, right wing social media influencers, podcasters.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

We actually are being victimized. There's no other word for what happened to Charlie Kirk yesterday.

[Alan Foyer]

Hunted.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

He was hunted.

[Alan Foyer]

And the comments kind of range from, we're either in a civil war and this video is for the fucking liberals. It's war, motherfuckers. We're coming for you. Or if we're not, we should be. Democrats own what happened today. You've got members of Congress speaking inside the Capitol, if we didn't know it already.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

There is no longer any middle ground.

[Alan Foyer]

Saying that there is no longer any middle ground left. That people on the left, there may be some who are well meaning, but the ideology itself is pure evil.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

And they literally will kill those with.

[Nicholas Bogle Burrows]

Whom they disagree, just as their predecessor.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Leftist Marx and Stalin and Lenin and Pol Pot and Fidel Castro did.

[Alan Foyer]

And this goes all the way up to President Trump, who offered remarks about Kirk's assassination.

[Donald Trump]

It's a long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree day after day, year after.

[Alan Foyer]

Year, where he kind of, on the one hand, said that violence like this emerges from demonizing people who don't agree with you, but then sort of rapidly pivoted.

[Donald Trump]

For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in.

[Alan Foyer]

Our country today, to blaming the assassination on what he called the radical left.

[Donald Trump]

My administration will find each and every one of those who contributed to this atrocity and to other political violence, including the organizations that fund it and support it, as well as those who go after our judges, law enforcement officials, and everyone else who brings order to our country.

[Alan Foyer]

And so, in some sense, all of this taken collectively, it looks like people were identifying a target before the authorities had identified a suspect.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right. That's what seems most distinctive, and, if we're being honest, problematic about the response from both the activist and official Republican world is a kind of presupposition that whatever happened here to Charlie Kirk, it represents an intentional effort to wound the conservative movement, which could be true. We just have no idea. And all the way up to the president comes this message. This is without ambiguity what happened. And the left must be held responsible for it. And the left exclusively.

[Alan Foyer]

Yes. And so when you really drill down on what President Trump was saying about Charlie Kirk's assassination, you know, you've got him sort of blaming the radical left for creating the conditions that allowed, that gave permission for somebody to assassinate this guy, and moreover, that he was going to punish people that he felt were responsible for it in a way that was very hard to understand beyond his seeming desire to. To point a finger at his political adversaries. So what's remarkable is that on the right, you kind of have a synthesis of, you know, the people outside of power and the people inside of power, more or less saying the same thing, that, you know, their adversaries are to blame and something must be done about it, where, as on the other side of the aisle, there's a real divide between people who were sort of espousing violence or using kind of ghoulishly gleeful rhetoric. Those were the fringes that were very distinct from those in power, because the establishment Democrats, again, like we said, were Sort of ironclad and vocal in their condemnation of this. And I think that reflects a larger dynamic that is important, which is the kind of collapse on the right between the fringe and. And those in power.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right. They've become suffused.

[Alan Foyer]

Look, it's worth recalling that a couple of weeks ago, Stephen Miller, who is arguably Trump's most powerful aide in the White House, called the Democratic Party, the entire Democratic Party, a domestic extremist organization.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

A stunning statement.

[Alan Foyer]

Yes. And one that was, you know, sort of rehashed and re echoed in the wake of the Kirk assassination. So this is not, you know, identifying a single suspect who may or may not be of the left, who needs to be punished for a specific crime. This is something different. This is sort of a wholesale demonization of one's political adversaries.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

The question is, does that invite action? Because whether it's the fringe all the way up through Congress and the President, there is now language that suggests that the left, that the Democratic Party, in the words of Stephen Miller, are a kind of existential threat.

[Alan Foyer]

Well, when you talk to people who study political violence, they tend to tell you that there are three things that you need to get actual violence on the ground. One of them is a riled up populace. Right? So check we have that. Two, there has to be a sort of triggering event, right? Well, check.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

The assassination of Charlie Kirk.

[Alan Foyer]

Charlie Kirk's assassination is clearly that it has landed with an incredible emotional intensity on the right. And the third thing that experts will tell you is neat is a kind of focal point for the action.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

And Alan, when Trump or Miller or any of the people we're talking about here was when they blame the left with a broad brush, but very clearly blame the left for something like the assassination of Charlie Kirk, are they intentionally or not offering a focal point?

[Alan Foyer]

I'm not sure that that constitutes a focal point. I think it has to be something a little more specific. Right. So just like if you imagine January 6, 2021, there was a giant event, a gathering where people went to the Capitol after having spent three months being very spun up about a stolen election. Right. So you had a route up population. You know, you had a stolen election allegedly in their minds, and then you had a focal point a single day, a mass gathering at the Capitol. I mean, I don't know that there's a focal point staring us in the face at the moment.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Right.

[Alan Foyer]

Which is not to say that this is not playing with fire, it's just where this goes next. I honestly don't think anybody knows the trouble with blaming rhetoric for causing violence is that the link is pretty tenuous. Right? The fact is not many people are sort of characterologically inclined to pick up a gun or plant a bomb or commit violence. However, the kind of ambient rhetoric that we have been hearing blaming one side and or blaming the other in, you know, kind of like sweepingly violent ways itself, it just sort of lowers the human inhibitions to committing. It creates an environment that increasingly encourages people to act.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Which is not to say that it justifies violence. It just may make it more likely. It may create the circumstances in which it happens. And it feels like there's a bit of an irony here because the president, in his pursuit of what he sees as left wing rhetoric that he believes is engendering violence, maybe lowering the bar for violence himself, given the nature of the pulpit he has.

[Alan Foyer]

Well, look, I think what you're describing is a cycle here that needs to be broken in the end. And the use of that incendiary rhetoric is just a bad thing for democracy, period. Because the more that we permit ourselves, you know, as a country as a whole to engage in this kind of violent rhetoric, the more we invite violence itself.

[Michael Bavaro (Interviewer)]

Well, Alan, thank you very much.

[Alan Foyer]

Thanks for having me. As always, Michael.

[Michael Bavaro]

On Thursday afternoon, in a sign of Kirk's importance to the Trump administration, Vice President J.D. vance flew to Utah to greet Kirk's casket at the airport and to return it aboard Air Force Two to Kirk's family in Arizona. We'll be right back.

[Ad Council Representative]

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[Michael Bavaro]

Here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, Brazil's Supreme Court convicted the country's former president, Jair Bolsonaro, of overseeing a failed conspiracy to overturn the results of the 2022 election, which Bolsonaro had lost. In a 5 to 1 ruling, the court voted to convict Bolsonaro and seven co conspirators of a plot that included disbanding courts, empowering the military and assassinating the president elect. Bolsonaro was sentenced to 27 years in prison despite intense pressure from President Trump, a Bolsonaro ally, to have the case dropped. Today's episode was produced produced by Eric Krupke and Shannon Lynn with help from Michelle Boggia. It was edited by Mark George with help from Paige Cowett and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for the Daily. I'm Michael. See you on Monday.

[Ad Council Representative]

Gun injuries are the leading cause of death for children and teens in the United States. Some people avoid talking about gun violence because they don't think they can make a difference. But every conversation matters. When it comes to gun violence, we agree on more than we think. And having productive conversations about gun violence can help protect children and teens. Learn how to have the conversation@ agreeto agree.org brought to you by the Ad Council.