The Courtroom Showdown Between Elon Musk and Sam Altman

Summary

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The Daily – The Courtroom Showdown Between Elon Musk and Sam Altman

Date: May 18, 2026
Hosts/Reporters: Natalie Kitroeff, Mike Isaac, Michael Barbaro (briefly)
Theme: An inside look at the scorched-earth legal battle between Elon Musk and Sam Altman over the fate, structure, and original mission of OpenAI—and what the trial reveals about Silicon Valley, its players, and the future of artificial intelligence.

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Episode Overview

This episode dissects the dramatic and deeply personal courtroom clash between two AI titans, Elon Musk and Sam Altman. With jury deliberations underway, tech reporter Mike Isaac offers a behind-the-scenes account of the spectacle—inside and outside the Oakland courthouse—examining how the case shifted from a technical corporate dispute into a "battle of the billionaires" centered on matters of trust, reputation, and the core values underlying the AI industry.
Main Focus: Beyond legal maneuvering, the episode lays bare how much of the AI sector now hinges on personal rivalries, public perception, and staggering stakes for both the tech industry and society at large.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Spectacle Around the Trial (02:07–04:47)

• Atmosphere Outside:

  • Each day, “people show up at like five or six o’clock in the morning,” describing a circus-like atmosphere with protestors, fans, and spectacle (“wavy car dealership things” with "Elon sucks" signage; anti-Musk imagery, even a mechanical Musk doing a Nazi salute). (03:13)
  • The crowd includes the simply curious, diehard partisans, and those seeing a societal struggle—“trillionaires and billionaires arguing over open AI while hundreds of thousands of workers cannot afford to live in the region.” (02:59)
  • Only about 30 courtroom seats are available to the public, giving it “the vibe of trying to get into a club, but the club is people worried about the end of the world because of AI.” (03:34)

• Inside the Courthouse:

  • Intimate, tense environment; Altman, Musk, and OpenAI co-founders repeatedly walk past press and public to enter court. (04:07)
  • Stakes are “pretty big”—the possibility of upending OpenAI and broader implications for the tech sector.

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2. The Core of Musk’s Lawsuit (04:48–06:30)

• Musk’s Claims:
  • Accuses Altman and co-founders of “duping” him—transforming OpenAI from its nonprofit, altruistic mission to a profit-seeking juggernaut.
  • Seeks $150 billion in damages—not for himself, but to be returned to the nonprofit foundation underpinning OpenAI.
  • Also demands reversal of OpenAI’s for-profit status and the removal of Sam Altman and Greg Brockman from leadership.

Notable Quote:

“Musk is levying this lawsuit, which has been years now in the making. He’s saying...he was duped essentially from creating what he thought would be a nonprofit...for the good of mankind.”
—Mike Isaac (04:48)

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3. Origins and Divergence: OpenAI’s Founding Story (06:44–13:57)

• 2015: Utopian Beginnings

  • Musk’s disagreement with Larry Page over AI ethics leads him to co-found OpenAI alongside Altman and Brockman, seeking “altruistic” oversight over powerful technology.
  • At the time, “no one cared about AI”; the idea was fringe. Private emails show genuine early concern for humanity’s fate.

• Initial Roles:

  • Musk as chief funder, Altman and Brockman as builders/visionaries.
  • 2017–2018: Altman and Brockman conclude the nonprofit model can’t attract the funds needed for major AI breakthroughs. Emails in evidence show their struggle on structure.

• Breakdown:

  • Musk tries to consolidate OpenAI within Tesla—Altman refuses.
  • Musk exits but continues to pay rent briefly; Altman and Brockman secure Microsoft as a new, far larger backer ($1 billion initially).
  • Contrasts: Musk’s total contribution was $38 million—a fraction of Microsoft’s eventual $10 billion. (13:47)

Notable Moment:

“Sam and Greg start talking to Microsoft, the king of software...They realize Google is very far ahead of them in AI...Microsoft promises OpenAI $1 billion.”
—Mike Isaac (12:49)

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4. The Incendiary Rise of OpenAI (14:12–15:59)

• ChatGPT’s Explosion and Fallout

  • OpenAI’s ChatGPT launch (2022) is a world-shifting event, turning OpenAI into a quasi-monopoly and drawing $10 billion from Microsoft.
  • Musk feels betrayed and fires off a furious message to Altman, calling the move “a bait and switch.”

• Parallel Ambition:

  • Musk launches his own for-profit AI company, xAI, despite criticizing OpenAI’s for-profit shift—opening both to charges of hypocrisy.

Key Point:

“This case is basically like deciding which billionaire you believe.”
—Mike Isaac (16:02)

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5. “Battle of the Billionaires”: Testimonies & Character on Trial (18:14–29:08)

A. Musk’s Testimony (18:35–25:02)

• Jury Selection Hurdles: Musk’s polarizing political activity complicated seating an unbiased jury.
• On the Stand:
  • Presented as both “serial entrepreneur dreamer” and “altruist.”
  • Isaac observes Musk “mutters and rambles...in a self-effacing and even charming way...There is a sort of interesting charm when he says it so matter of factly.”
  • Musk positions Altman as “Machiavellian”—a betrayer of nonprofit ideals.
  • Cross-examination triggers Musk’s combative side; exchanges become “pugilistic,” eliciting laughter and fist-pumps from Musk’s courtroom fans.

Notable Quote:

“They're trying to steal a charity. And if you allow OpenAI to get away with this, no charity will ever be safe in the future.”
—Mike Isaac paraphrasing Musk’s argument (21:48)

B. Altman’s Testimony (25:05–29:08)

• Demeanor: Not traditionally charismatic but comes off as “soft-spoken,” earnest, and humble; emphasizes background and commitment to noble causes.
• Musk’s Legal Assault: Cross-examination is merciless. The first question: “Are you trustworthy?” lays groundwork for painting Altman as duplicitous—citing boardroom drama, negative press, and recent a New Yorker piece labeling him “fundamentally untrustworthy.”
• Altman’s Response: Initially humble, eventually starts to assertively push back after repeated character attacks.
• Broader Point: The trial becomes a proxy on “who these people are at their core,” with the jury forced to intuit which leader is believable.

Notable Moment:

“Literally the first question out of Elon Musk’s counsel’s mouth was, ‘Are you trustworthy?’...it was brutal.”
—Mike Isaac (27:10)

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6. What’s Really at Stake—For AI and Public Perception (29:08–34:19)

• Reputation War:

  • The trial is dominated by “vibes”—character, trust, personality—more than legal minutiae.
  • Mud-slinging has done lasting damage to both men and their causes; “there is something lost for both sides” as trust in AI leadership erodes.

• Broader Tech Landscape:

  • Hostility and personal attacks now define the AI arms race.
  • Stakes are not just monetary but existential: “dragging reputations through the mud...is part of the game in this incredibly intense competitive arena.”
  • Illustrates how far the sector is from the collaborative, idealistic “joint mission” of the OpenAI founding.

Memorable Quote:

“There’s something different about how people are competing in this AI race...It’s getting as much competitive intelligence on each other so you can throw it into a lawsuit or get some, like, nasty character assassination out there into the public.”
—Mike Isaac (34:19)

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7. Final Thoughts (35:21–End)

• Uncertain Outcomes:
  • Mike Isaac states it’s impossible to predict the jury’s verdict; even after a decision, appeals are inevitable.
  • No matter the result, “there’s not really any coming back from how high-stakes things are”—AI leadership and competition will remain fierce and polarized.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The club is people worried about the end of the world because of AI, basically.”
  (Mike Isaac, 03:34)

• “The way they deliver these testimonies is they don’t face the lawyers, they face the jury...there’s something powerful about having the world’s richest and most powerful men in front of you.”
  (Mike Isaac, 19:32)

• “It was like a show, man. People wanted the Elon show and they got it.”
  (Mike Isaac, 24:34)

• “Literally the first question out of Elon Musk’s counsel’s mouth was, 'Are you trustworthy?'”
  (Mike Isaac, 27:10)

• “A lot of this trial feels kind of vibes-based at this point. You have to remember this is a jury of nine people who are essentially trying to figure out...which side they trust more.”
  (Mike Isaac, 29:32)

• “Whoever wins this case, there is something lost for both sides...it’s just a lot of real ugliness being dredged up for the public to see and judge for themselves.”
  (Mike Isaac, 31:49)

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Timeline of Key Segments

• Early Scenes & Atmosphere: 02:07–04:47
• Overview of Lawsuit & Stakes: 04:48–06:30
• Founding Story, Musk’s Exit: 06:44–13:57
• ChatGPT’s Impact, Shift to For-Profit: 14:12–16:32
• The Courtroom as Theater: Musk's Testimony: 18:14–25:02
• Altman’s Testimony and Character on Trial: 25:05–29:08
• Broader Implications & AI’s Image Problem: 29:08–34:19
• Future of AI and Uncertain Verdict: 34:19–35:21

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Tone and Style

The episode’s tone is vivid, insider, and at times irreverent, echoing both the absurdity and gravity of the AI showdown. Mike Isaac’s observations capture the carnival and cage-match spirit of the trial, while the hosts underscore what’s at stake for both Silicon Valley and society at large.

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Utility for Listeners

• Offers in-depth insider reporting on the Musk vs. Altman trial, making sense of the legal, personal, and cultural stakes.
• Explains the evolution of OpenAI and its mission, for those new to the tech’s origin story.
• Captures the high drama and high tension of this latest milestone in the AI arms race.
• Addresses larger societal questions about technology, trust, and the people monopolizing the future of AI.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone following the next chapter in America’s tech titans, the fate of OpenAI, or the volatile intersection of personal ambition and public good in Silicon Valley.

Transcript

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[Natalie Kitroeff]

Times, I'm Natalie Kitroweff. This is the Daily. For the last three weeks, a messy, dramatic battle has played out between two of the most powerful titans of tech in the world, Elon Musk and Sam Altman. In a high stakes lawsuit, Musk is seeking to cripple one of the leaders of the AI.

[Podcast Host]

Boom.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

OpenAI and remove Altman as its chief executive. Today, as jury deliberations in the trial begin, tech reporter Mike Isaac takes us inside the courtroom drama and explains how a corporate dispute got extremely personal. It's Monday, may 18th.

[Mike Isaac]

Oh my God. I'm so sorry. Can you hear me? Mike?

[Podcast Host]

You made it.

[Mike Isaac]

I'm sorry. I've been so harried. Thank you for dealing with it.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, are you hanging in? It seems like it's been a long day.

[Mike Isaac]

I'm pretty fried, man. It's been like three weeks of 12 hour days. 5am mornings. It's pretty intense.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Three weeks, no breaks. Covering the Musk Altman trial every single day. I have so many questions. Just tell us what that's been like.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

What have you seen?

[Mike Isaac]

There we go. There's Elon. So it's downtown Oakland. It's the battle of the billionaires here at the district court. People show up at like five or six o' clock in the morning most days. And right from the beginning, this song is hot off the press. It's kind of like the circus is entering town.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Ready?

[Mike Isaac]

He calls himself an altruist, but look at what he's done. His race to super AI could kill each and every one. You have a bunch of protest groups. You have people who hate Sam Haltman. You have people who hate Elon Musk. Musk's ego marches on. Evil muskrat. You have people who hate everyone involved. So again, we have trillionaires and billionaires arguing over open AI while hundreds of thousands of workers cannot afford to live in the region. Oh, and I forgot to mention the, you know, those like wavy car dealership things.

[Podcast Host]

Sure. Iconic.

[Mike Isaac]

So there's that with An Elon sucks printed in big block letters on it.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Mike Isaac]

There's a more intense one of Musk doing the Sig Heil Salute.

[Podcast Host]

Wow. Like the arms are doing the Heil.

[Mike Isaac]

Yes. I don't actually know how they did the engineering to make that work, but all of which is to say it's a scene.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Mike Isaac]

I talked to one woman who is retired and was a university administrator and has just been showing up because it's fun. Everyone is showing up hoping to get into the courtroom, which is only like 30 unreserved seats. So it's kind of like trying to get in the club, but the club is people worried about the end of the world because of AI, basically.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

So high intensity atmosphere outside the courtroom, clearly.

[Podcast Host]

What about inside?

[Mike Isaac]

You know, we all have to go into this federal courthouse and it's a pretty intimate hallway that leads to the courtroom and then on the other side is like a holding pen where they keep all the like, billionaires that don't want to be around people like me all day. And they have to essentially walk past us to get into the courtroom. So every day on the way in, you have Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, one of the other co founders of OpenAI, all the sort of like big wigs of AI kind of coming down to earth and dealing with the press and the public and their fans and their detractors. But it's more than that. It's this moment where the stakes are pretty big here.

[Podcast Host]

Talk about that.

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah, it's Musk levying this lawsuit, which has been years now in the making. He's saying that with this project that he got involved with with OpenAI so many years ago, he was duped essentially from creating what he thought would be a nonprofit to build artificial intelligence for the good of mankind. And instead, what Elon Musk says is that he was tricked by his co founders, Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, who decided they wanted to make it a for profit company once they had stars and dollar signs in their eyes. And I think it's, you know, there's a lot of lawsuits that fly around Silicon Valley, but this one could really damage OpenAI, what is now almost a trillion dollar private company.

[Podcast Host]

Say, why?

[Mike Isaac]

So Musk is asking for a lot. For one, he wants 150 billion with a B dollars in damages. But he's saying, not for me, of course, it's to be returned to the nonprofit organization which is like the parent of OpenAI, the for profit company. So it's like this quote unquote, selfless moment that he's trying to do. Musk is also asking for them to unwind this for profit structure that they've devised and basically turn OpenAI back into exclusively a nonprofit. And finally we have, I guess, what would be the coup de grace for management, which is to basically remove Sam Altman and Greg Brockman from the top of the company and the board of directors. And, and that's a big deal. So it's a lot, Mike.

[Podcast Host]

I think it's going to be news to people that OpenAI even has a nonprofit company attached to it. So I want you to kind of go back to the beginning, which seems like is at the heart of this case.

[Mike Isaac]

Yes. Rewind to 2015. We have this moment of Elon Musk sitting down with Larry Page, chief executive of Google, and having basically a big disagreement over the future of what AI should look like. Musk says, I'm very worried. Apparently he's been talking at parties forever how he's very concerned about the future of AI and it harming humanity. Larry Page says, whatever, it's fine. You know, the way that AI will progress, even if it's not for the good of mankind, it's still going to be okay because AI will survive past us. Musk is shocked and aghast by that and saying, you know, you don't care about humanity. Paige calls him a speciesist, which is a funny, new to me word, not a term I've heard 100% saying, you know, like he's being discriminatory against an artificial intelligence robot. And Elon's like, I gotta do something about. Google goes and starts talking with Sam Altman, who then was running a startup incubator in Silicon Valley, and saying, this is existential stuff. We need to worry about what AI could do for the future. Thus OpenAI was born. And the idea was we should be the ones building the future of artificial intelligence, but we need to do it safely and build it in an altruistic manner, let's say. And Elon Musk was the money man, right? He had made a ton of money on PayPal, he was building Tesla and doing really well. He had SpaceX. And, you know, this feels long ago, but his star was also pretty high. And there was, it was mostly seeing him as like Iron man slash boy Wonder inventions guy and, you know, the entrepreneur that everyone loved. So he was the one that was like, okay, I'm going to fund this thing. That's a money losing endeavor. But that's the point, because we're doing this for the good of mankind, basically.

[Podcast Host]

And from the beginning, everyone involved, including Musk, Altman, they agree AI is this incredibly important technology and that it's really critical that they be in charge of it as an altruistic endeavor. So that in their minds, the good guys are the stewards of this ultra powerful thing that's coming. And the thought is Altman is going to build it and Musk is going to fund it.

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah, that's right. And you know, the funny thing going on in this trial too is just sort of seeing a window into how they were talking about it over email at the time. And like this was when no one cared about AI and it was kind of a fringe pursuit. And they were all talking about it like the far flung universe in which AI was going to take over the world. They were serious about it.

[Podcast Host]

It's interesting because we hear so much of that now, these dumorous kind of concerns about AI. But you're saying privately amongst each other they were voicing that early on?

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm, I've been out here in the valley for like 16, 17 years and pretty cynical and usually when I hear these sort of grand proclamations about worrying about humanity, I'm just like, okay, all right. But like they've been talking about this for a long time in the same way and weren't performing on an email chain of three people.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so these guys join forces, they're aligned on mission. What happens next?

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah, so Musk, who by the way is running multiple companies, is kind of a figure in the background who is paying the rent. He's got the checks coming in, funding this thing. While Sam Altman and Greg Brockman are trying to do the work of building the next generation AI models. Right. We get to around 2017, 2018, Greg and Sam start talking about if we need to develop these models the way we want to, we are going to need a heck of a lot more money and maybe like in the millions, tens of millions, billions even like long before the insane sums we know we're spending now. But they start saying this not for profit model, the way we have it structured, may not work entirely.

[Podcast Host]

They're basically realizing this is going to be super resource intensive and a nonprofit isn't going to get us where we need to be to build the thing we need to build.

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah, that's exactly right. And so what we started seeing come out in the trial is emails between Sam Altman and Greg Brockman trying to figure out just exactly how they could change this nonprofit structure into something that could Help them get the money they needed.

[Podcast Host]

And so what do they do?

[Mike Isaac]

So there's this sort of, like, interesting Cold War battle brewing between Sam and Elon and other folks involved. They're exchanging these increasingly terse, intense emails with one another, and Musk is worried that he's essentially losing his grasp on this nonprofit company. And so he has this idea of moving OpenAI inside of Tesla to say, hey, we can incubate it in here. This is where we can build AI. Altman Bucks that idea, and things basically fall apart. And so at that point, Elon says, look, I'm out. Go with God. Good luck. I'm doing my own thing. Wow.

[Podcast Host]

He. He's out. He cuts bait over this.

[Mike Isaac]

That's right. He's just, like, tired of it. And you have to understand, too, AI development at the time was not what it is now. It wasn't like him saying, I don't care about the hottest technology ever. Like, this thing was costing him money, and it was making him frustrated, and he was arguing with them on a thing that he didn't know if it would ever work.

[Podcast Host]

Right. And for OpenAI, does that mean that the Elon money spigot then turns off? Practically. What's the consequence for them?

[Mike Isaac]

I mean, it's funny, he actually does continue to pay rent on their offices for a few more months, which is nice of him, I guess, but. But Sam and Greg start talking to Microsoft, the king of software from Forever. They've been doing a bunch of AI spending for a long time. They realize that Google is very far ahead of them in AI. And so Microsoft Satya Nadella, the CEO, says, hey, do we need to get on this AI train? Should we be funding this research in OpenAI? That's sort of the deal they start arranging. And, you know, Sam and Greg negotiate this thing where Microsoft will now be the backer of incubating AI research inside of OpenAI. And Microsoft promises OpenAI $1 billion. And it's important there because the amount of money that Elon Musk spent On this was $38 million, which a lot to me, certainly. Yeah, it's more than I made.

[Podcast Host]

Right. But in the grand scheme of things.

[Mike Isaac]

In the grand scheme of things, it's nothing compared to how much Microsoft and others would eventually put into this.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so the split at this point doesn't sound that acrimonious. Like, it doesn't sound that bitter. If he's still paying the rent, it's just kind of like, okay, we agree to part ways.

[Mike Isaac]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

So then how does it get to the point where Musk is now suing them for 150 billion.

[Mike Isaac]

OpenAI almost unceremoniously releases ChatGPT in 2022. Their chatbot that they didn't really think was a big deal at the time, but they put it out in the world and then the thing goes crazy. Like, it literally becomes the most downloaded app of all time overnight. It also wakes up every big company in the valley saying, okay, time to invest enormous amounts of money in this. And Microsoft decides to really step it up and invest $10 billion in OpenAI. Whoa. Which is a lot of money. The one person who doesn't like this when they hear about it is Elon Musk.

[Podcast Host]

Why?

[Mike Isaac]

So if you're Elon Musk and you're thinking, okay, I left this AI startup that I founded, co founded as a nonprofit, and now all of a sudden this thing sure seems like it's taking on the characteristics of a for profit company with a significant amount of investment. I'm not happy. And so he fires off this message to Sam Altman. Just being like, dude, what are you doing? This feels like a bait and switch.

[Podcast Host]

So this is the moment when Elon gets really mad at OpenAI. It's after they have this hit on their hands. It's after they start to look dominant in this industry. And if I'm not wrong about this, isn't this also when Musk himself is launching an AI company? Around the same time you are not

[Mike Isaac]

wrong about this, he starts building xai, which is his own version of developing the next generation AI models. He wants to essentially compete with what OpenAI is doing.

[Podcast Host]

Just curious, was Musk's AI project a nonprofit?

[Mike Isaac]

Funny you asked that. Actually, it was not a nonprofit. This is a for profit company. And you're getting at something which I think is really key to the case. Sam Altman and Elon Musk are both accusing each other of being hypocritical in what they're doing. You know, I think this case is basically like deciding which billionaire you believe.

[Podcast Host]

We'll be right back.

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[Podcast Host]

Mike, you're telling us this whole trial hinges on how credible members of the jury find these two tech titans. Which billionaire they believe so let's get into the stories that these billionaires told about about themselves in their testimonies, which I understand were quite explosive. Let's start with Musk.

[Mike Isaac]

Here's something you should probably think about. Leading up to the trial, there was actually some difficulty in finding a jury that wasn't biased against Musk for a little while because of no, you might be surprised, but because of his recent political activities, because he was willing to be very vocal about his politics online. He's aligned with President Trump in a lot of ways. And one way that Musk started off his testimony and his lawyers started questioning them is to go back to that era we were talking about where people still revered Elon Musk. He created PayPal, he co created Tesla and SpaceX, and they tried to paint him as this serial entrepreneur dreamer guy who just wants to do things that are good for the world and good for humanity.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think that worked? Mike, it makes sense that they wanted to do that. Did it succeed?

[Mike Isaac]

Jury trials like this are always a crapshoot. You really don't know if people are gonna buy it or not. But I was looking at the jury the whole time, and there's something powerful about having the world's literal, richest and most powerful men in front of you. And the way that they deliver these testimonies is they don't face the lawyers, they face the jury, and they're maybe a few feet away. And so Elon Musk, this guy who was at least once revered as like the heir to Steve Jobs as far as creativity and technology, telling you that he cares about Humanity. He cares about you, the jurors, and is doing this for you. I think it was probably smart for them to kind of at least lay that groundwork. And this is where Elon Musk was when he was building OpenAI.

[Podcast Host]

And what was he like on the stand?

[Mike Isaac]

Musk has like all these interesting mannerisms. You know, he tends to mutter and ramble, but in a occasionally self effacing and even charming way, if you can believe that. He talks about these big grand things, you know, oh, I want to go to Mars, I want to save humanity, but doesn't do it with the grandeur of a Carnival Barker or P.T. barnum. He's just sort of muttering it as an engineer would be saying something. Right. And. And it's very interesting.

[Podcast Host]

That is interesting because I was going to say claiming that you want to save humanity. It feels like that could go one of two ways. Either you sound like a megalomaniac, frankly, or you sound like an altruist 100%.

[Mike Isaac]

I remember actually at a tech conference years ago where he was doing similar sort of way of delivering his, you know, big grand thoughts. And it really worked on the crowd because of exactly what you said. There is a sort of interesting charm that I think works on a certain crowd. When he says it so matter of factly, like this is just his life. And the way he thinks about, I don't know, going to the grocery store, he's like, okay, I gotta buy vegetables, I gotta buy some soda and I have to take us to Mars eventually. That's what his daily list looks like.

[Podcast Host]

I guess fundamentally, Musk's argument in the case is that Altman deceived him. Did he come off as genuinely hurt?

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah. So there was a very clear line that Musk and his attorneys sort of went over and over, which was, they're trying to steal a charity. And if you allow OpenAI to get away with this, no charity will ever be safe in the future, is basically how he positioned it. And I think that was just sort of laying the groundwork for little old me. I'm this billionaire who also wants to save humanity and do it altruistically without any sort of hint of profit. While my counterpart sitting across from me over there is this Machiavellian guy who, once he got the whiff of money from this endeavor, decided to change the whole thing and pull the rug out from under me. But I think the most memorable part was upon cross examination from OpenAI's attorneys, that's when Elon Musk the fighter, let the fireworks out, essentially.

[Podcast Host]

Tell me what happened.

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah. So I think this actually kind of goes to the heart of how OpenAI is trying to prove its case. They're saying Elon Musk is just a spurned guy who feels like he's being out competed and he's mad that he didn't have control over this thing. And the way that OpenAI's attorneys come at Musk is, I think, a way that Musk probably doesn't get spoken to that often. He starts getting prodded by cross examination and questions insinuating that he's being untruthful or hypocritical or contradictory. And the humble sort of aw shuck's entrepreneurial Musk from before starts melting away. And we get Musk the pugilist, right? He starts getting snippy and saying, you're being disingenuous. You're not telling the truth. The questions you're asking me are not yes or no questions. And getting really sort of caught up in the details of how he's being spoken to. It went from, like, inspirational tone to him being really mad and really upset with the other attorneys. And it's one of those things that could go either way. When he was getting these little clapbacks in, let's say there were guys around me who were clearly there to view Musk, and they would do little fist pumps or laugh at, like, Musk's jokes or snippiness. And the gallery was sort of popping off.

[Podcast Host]

Were people really fist bumping in the audience?

[Mike Isaac]

Oh, my God. You have no idea. It was a wild gallery. When I was in the back, I would hear snickers around me from people who are clearly fans of Musk when they felt he was scoring a point against the lawyers. It was like a show, man. It was like, really?

[Podcast Host]

This is like a cage match happening.

[Mike Isaac]

It was a trip. That was the thing. It was sort of like people wanted the Elon show and they got it. And it was one of these moments for the OpenAI lawyers to show. Hey, look, this is how Elon Musk can get when he doesn't get his way, essentially, was the idea that this is about Musk being mad, that he's not in control, he's being left behind, and now he's throwing a tantrum.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, what about Sam Altman? What was the Altman show?

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah. So how do I put this? I wouldn't call him, like, classically charismatic.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Sure.

[Mike Isaac]

But I think he has a type of charisma that actually works for him. He's more soft spoken. He he was leaning into this sort of like, I'm an entrepreneur who cares about the world. Clearly not as famous as Elon Musk, but I came from humble beginnings and I built startups. I worked in Silicon Valley with other optimistic entrepreneurs. And it worked for him. You know, like, I think it was a chance for him to really present himself to the jury for the first time. And I do think that he presented well in that regard. You know, he tried to talk about his passion for tech and for building things and this idea of getting into the technology industry to make a positive difference in the world.

[Podcast Host]

And how did Musk's lawyers try to poke holes in that image?

[Mike Isaac]

So this is where things get super gnarly for Altman. There has been piece after piece of the image of Sam Altman being chipped away in public. A lot of this started when he was briefly fired from his job from the board of directors and then reinstated, which the reason he was fired was because he was, quote, unquote, not consistently candid with the executives at the company. There have been articles about him being duplicitous, telling people one thing and then telling people completely opposite things five minutes later. There's a particularly damning article in the New Yorker a few weeks ago, basically painting him as just a fundamentally untrustworthy person.

[Podcast Host]

Right. So while he may not be as famous as Elon Musk, the information that has been made public about him and that has gotten a lot of attention recently, has basically amounted to accusations that he's deceptive.

[Mike Isaac]

I mean, if this is any indication, literally the first question out of Elon Musk's counsel's mouth was, are you trustworthy? Wow. Thrown down the gauntlet just like a, like a bucket of cold water in his face right off of the bat. And it was funny, actually, because I don't even know how I would answer that. I would probably say, like, I think so or something, but, like, you are trustworthy. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. And I think he said what I said. Like, I think so. Like, yeah, I would like to believe so. And then immediately Elon's lawyers were like, oh, you think so? You're not immediately trustworthy. Are you not trustworthy? Like, it was brutal and it was very much just a, just a, a parade of here are all the ways we think you're a bald faced liar in every aspect of your life.

[Podcast Host]

Just over and over and over again

[Mike Isaac]

you're saying, yeah, yeah, like, I mean, I was uncomfortable. I do this for a living. And I was like, oh, God, ugh. That's brutal. Please stop. I think it can be kind of a gamble. Like, maybe the jury absorbed it or maybe they thought it was a bit much. But picture that Musk's counsel was trying to paint was essentially, this guy is not building AI for the right reasons. Elon Musk is, and Sam Altman is not.

[Podcast Host]

What's Altman's demeanor as these accusations are being presented to him?

[Mike Isaac]

He tried to sort of be humble and say, I think I'm trustworthy. And then slowly, over the course of hours of questioning, started to push back and started being a little more forceful in his pushback. He certainly was not like Elon, who would just throw insults right back at the lawyers or whatever, you know, And I think Altman was, you know, probably had the foresight to not come off as snippy in that regard. But I think after, like, hour one of getting called, you know, Satan, he decided to start pushing back a little bit more.

[Podcast Host]

It's interesting how personal this all sounds. Like you said, this trial feels very much about the characters of these two men. It's ostensibly about whether this company that was a nonprofit betrayed its original mission. But at a really fundamental sense, it seems to be about who these people are at their core.

[Mike Isaac]

Yeah, totally. And I. I really think that's part of the point of why we've been getting into all these old emails and muckraking. It's because a lot of this trial feels kind of vibes based at this point. You have to remember this is a jury of nine people who are essentially trying to figure out kind of which side they trust more.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Mike Isaac]

Is it Elon Musk telling the truth? Is it Sam Altman? And I think each new bit of evidence being introduced is trying to sway the jury a little bit more that actually this person shouldn't be trusted.

[Podcast Host]

Mike, you obviously can't say all that much about the jury, and it would be unfair for me to ask you to predict what's about to happen, but thank you. But I have to ask. Who do you think came out on top in the war to prove to these nine people that they are the more credible one?

[Mike Isaac]

No, totally. I mean, well, can I just tell you, as I was reporting this trial, and I would get random messages from people who are trying to bet on the outcome of this trial on Kalshi and polymarket.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, that's not why I'm asking.

[Mike Isaac]

I was gonna say. So I'm not telling you if that's the case, but, no, also, I did not respond to any of them, but it's too hard to tell, you know, and there's still a bunch of stuff that has to happen before we even get to a real outcome. The jury has to deliberate on the verdict itself. The judge has to decide what remedies are, depending on who wins. And I am sure there's going to be appeals after whatever decision comes.

[Podcast Host]

So, Mike, setting aside who may win, what do you think the effect of this case will be of all the mudslinging and the tarring and feathering of these two guys? At this moment, when public opinion of AI is so contested? I mean, it's not lost on me that this is all happening in a context where neither of these two men, or AI in general, is broadly beloved. Does it heighten the sense that people might have the skepticism that people might have over the leaders of this hugely important industry?

[Mike Isaac]

I mean, it certainly doesn't help to have all these gnarly emails from the past saying really bad stuff about each other out there for public consumption. But I think you're exactly right. We're in this weird moment in Silicon Valley where everyone in AI realizes how much the average person isn't as enamored with it as they are. You know, technologists see is this is how we can do things faster and better. And these jobs are going to go away, but in service of something bigger and better. And what the average person hears out in the rest of the world is, you're going to take my jobs and you're going to, you know, be richer than God, and I'm going to be left with the scraps. Why would I? Why would I see anything good in this? You know, whoever wins this case, there is something lost for both sides there because it's just a lot of real ugliness being dredged up for the public to see and judge for themselves. You know, so sure, they can say all day long that they want to get back to building, and I'm sure that they do. But also, this is part of the game, man. This is how they chip away at each other in this incredibly intense competitive arena around racing to build AI.

[Podcast Host]

Obviously, competition has always existed in this space, but it just strikes me that what you're describing right now is so different from that era in 2015 that you heard about in this trial, where there was a real sense of joint mission around this.

[Mike Isaac]

Look, Silicon Valley has always been a competitive place, but I was actually talking to my editor the other day, and she was saying, I don't think I've ever seen it this crazy. The entire time I've been reporting out here, and I agree with her. You know, like, there's something different about how people are competing in this AI race. You know, it's not just raising millions of dollars. It's tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars at stake. It's looking at your competitors and dragging their name and reputation through the mud any way you can. It's getting as much competitive intelligence on each other so you can throw it into a lawsuit or get some, like, nasty character assassination out there into the public. It's doing whatever you can to keep other people from investing your competitors.

[Podcast Host]

And you have Molotov cocktails being thrown at Sam Altman's house, for example. I mean, the public feeling about it is heightened, too.

[Mike Isaac]

I think that's the other part of it. You know, like, there's the money part, and there are people who believe this is actually existential. You know, actually the stakes are not just, I'm going to have the next cool company. It's what happens to the human race if we fail. But look, the jury's deliberating right now. The trial is still, you know, a total up in the air thing. But I think no matter what the outcome of this thing is, there's not really any coming back from how high stakes things are. That's just how it is out here now.

[Podcast Host]

Well, Mike, thanks so much. We really appreciate it.

[Mike Isaac]

Thank you for having me.

[Podcast Host]

We'll be right back.

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[Natalie Kitroeff]

Here's what else you need to know today.

[Mike Isaac]

I've been able to participate in democracy, and when you participate in democracy, sometimes it doesn't turn out the way you want it to.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Republican Senator Bill Cassidy decisively lost his primary over the weekend after President Trump targeted him for defeat. Trump was retaliating against Cassidy for voting to impeach him for inciting insurrection after he lost the 2020 election.

[Mike Isaac]

But you don't pout, you don't whine, you don't claim the election was stolen. You don't find a reason why.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

In his concession speech, Cassidy took a thinly veiled swipe at Trump, saying America's leaders shouldn't be focused on one individual who demanded absolute loyalty. But his defeat demonstrated the strength of Trump's hold on the party. Trump's chosen candidate, Julia Letlow, finished well ahead. A former Trump official finished second, and Cassidy couldn't even secure enough support to stay in the race. Trump celebrated the result in a social media post, saying that Cassidy's, quote, disloyalty to the man who got him elected is now a part of Legend. Today's episode was produced by Asta Chaturvedi, Adrienne Hurst, Shannon Lynn and Rochelle Bonga. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg with help from Paige Cowett, and contains music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano and Rowan Nimisto. Our theme music is by Wonderly.

[Podcast Host]

This episode.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

This episode was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the Daily I'm Natalie Kitroweff. See you tomorrow.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

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