The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown

Summary

Summary of "The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown" – The Daily, The New York Times

Release Date: March 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Daily, hosted by Michael Barbaro, The New York Times delves deep into the unprecedented confrontation that unfolded in the Oval Office between President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. This clash not only disrupted a critical diplomatic meeting but also sent shockwaves through international relations, domestic politics, and the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

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Setting the Stage: A Historic Breakdown

Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent, provides an overview of the meeting's gravity:

"I've been covering these meetings at White Houses since 1996, and I've never seen anything like this... a verbal assault that we've seen even on an adversary, much less on an ally."
— Peter Baker, 01:49

The meeting was intended to solidify the United States' support for Ukraine amidst its conflict with Russia. However, tensions between Trump and Zelensky escalated rapidly, leading to what Baker describes as a "unique, singular moment" in presidential history.

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Backdrop of U.S.-Ukraine Relations

Baker contextualizes the fraught relationship between Trump and Ukraine:

"President Trump has never liked Ukraine in particular... during the last four years when Trump was out of office, he was never supportive of Ukraine in its war against Russia."
— Peter Baker, 04:18

Trump's skepticism towards Ukraine's intentions and support has been evident since his presidency, including his controversial phone call with Zelensky that led to his impeachment. This longstanding tension set the stage for the dramatic fallout in the Oval Office.

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The Confrontation Unfolds

During the meeting, Zelensky aimed to emphasize Ukraine's victimhood in the war:

"I want to share with you some images of Ukrainian men and women who have been released from Russian prisons... we are the victim, not the villain."
— Volodymyr Zelensky, 07:37

However, the dialogue took a sharp turn as Trump and Vance expressed frustration over Ukraine's military struggles and questioned the efficacy of diplomatic efforts without concrete security guarantees.

Vance interjected in defense of Trump's stance:

"Trump is the one who's going to bring peace. He's going to be engaging in diplomacy."
— J.D. Vance, 09:56

Zelensky countered by highlighting the futility of past diplomatic efforts and the repeated breaches by Putin:

"Putin broke the ceasefire 25 times... He will never agree to a ceasefire without security guarantees."
— Volodymyr Zelensky, 09:23

The confrontation escalated as Trump dismissed Zelensky's concerns:

"You're not in a good position... You're gambling with the lives of millions of people."
— Donald Trump, 13:40

This aggressive stance left Zelensky without a constructive path forward in the meeting.

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Immediate Aftermath: A Ruptured Alliance

Post-confrontation, tensions boiled over when Zelensky was effectively expelled from the White House:

"Tell him to leave."
— Peter Baker, 20:07

Zelensky exited the building amidst confusion and disappointment, signaling a significant rupture in U.S.-Ukraine relations.

Trump responded on social media:

"I have determined that President Zelensky is not ready for peace if America is involved... He can come back when he is ready for peace."
— Donald Trump, 20:28

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Domestic Political Reactions

The episode highlights the polarized responses within the United States:

• Republicans, led by Senator Lindsey Graham, condemned Zelensky, urging his resignation and framing the fallout as a matter of respect.

  "I have never been more proud of the president for standing up for America, but if Zelenskyy wouldn't change that he should even resign."
  — Senator Lindsey Graham, 21:53

• Democrats expressed outrage over the President's treatment of an allied leader, fearing it undermines U.S. credibility and emboldens adversaries like Russia.

  "Zelensky is leading a country trying to defend democracy against an authoritarian dictator, Putin, who invaded his country."
  — Volodymyr Zelensky, 23:38

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International Implications: Europe's Role in the Shadow

With the U.S. appearing to retract its support, European leaders vowed to step up:

"By refusing to bend in Washington, Volodymyr Zelenskyy was the honor of Europe... now it is upon us Europeans to decide what we want to be."
— French Prime Minister, paraphrased by Michael Barbaro, 26:04

Peter Baker notes that Europe has historically pledged support but often hesitates to fully shoulder the burden:

"Europeans have donated more money for Ukraine's defense than the United States has... But it's still a question whether they can do everything that Ukraine would need without American support."
— Peter Baker, 28:11

The UK Prime Minister echoed this sentiment while acknowledging the necessity of continued U.S. involvement:

"We've gotta be honest, we still need a backstop from the U.S. There's nothing approaching a true guarantee of Ukraine's safety unless the U.S. is involved."
— UK Prime Minister, 29:14

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Analyzing Trump's Strategic Shift

The episode explores the strategic motivations behind Trump's stance, suggesting a pivot towards prioritizing relationships with Russia and China over traditional alliances:

"Trump respects strength and power... What matters more is who is powerful, not who has the same kind of governmental system."
— Peter Baker, 26:29

This realpolitik approach raises concerns about the long-term implications for democratic alliances and global stability.

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Zelensky's Future Moves: Navigating a New Landscape

Facing diminished U.S. support, Zelensky is strategizing his next steps. Baker speculates on Zelensky's potential reluctance to capitulate:

"Zelensky is a man of pride... He's a man struggling to save his country from an aggressor. There's only so far he was willing to go."
— Peter Baker, 31:14

Zelensky's commitment to Ukraine's sovereignty suggests he may seek alternative alliances or intensify diplomatic efforts within Europe to secure necessary support.

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Conclusion: A New Era of Diplomacy?

The fallout from the Oval Office confrontation marks a pivotal moment in international relations. As the U.S. redefines its foreign policy priorities, the episode underscores the urgent need for allies to reassess their roles in global conflicts. The long-term consequences of this diplomatic meltdown remain to be seen, with significant implications for the balance of power and the future of democracy worldwide.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Peter Baker (01:49): "I've been covering these meetings at White Houses since 1996, and I've never seen anything like this... a verbal assault that we've seen even on an adversary, much less on an ally."

• Volodymyr Zelensky (07:37): "I want to share with you some images of Ukrainian men and women who have been released from Russian prisons... we are the victim, not the villain."

• J.D. Vance (09:56): "Trump is the one who's going to bring peace. He's going to be engaging in diplomacy."

• Donald Trump (13:40): "You're not in a good position... You're gambling with the lives of millions of people."

• Senator Lindsey Graham (21:53): "I have never been more proud of the president for standing up for America, but if Zelenskyy wouldn't change that he should even resign."

• UK Prime Minister (29:14): "We've gotta be honest, we still need a backstop from the U.S. There's nothing approaching a true guarantee of Ukraine's safety unless the U.S. is involved."

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Implications for the Future

The episode concludes by highlighting the potential realignment of international alliances and the challenges democracies face in maintaining unity against authoritarianism in the wake of shifting U.S. foreign policy priorities.

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This summary aims to encapsulate the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who did not listen to the full podcast.

Transcript

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[Michael Bavaro]

From the new York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is the Daily Today, the fallout from the extraordinary televised Oval Office shouting match between Donald Trump, JD Vance and Volodymyr Zelensky. My colleague, chief White House correspondent Peter Baker, walks us through the clash and its consequences. It's Monday, March 3rd. Peter, thank you for making time for us on a Sunday afternoon, no less. We appreciate it.

[Peter Baker]

Thanks for having me.

[Michael Bavaro]

I'm curious, Peter, where in the pantheon of moments that you have witnessed at the White House over the past 30 years to date, you does what happened in the Oval Office on Friday fit, would you say?

[Peter Baker]

Yeah, Michael, I've been covering these meetings at white houses since 1996, and I've never seen anything like this. Never. You had the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, show up for a meeting with the President, United States, Donald Trump, in the middle of a war with so much at stake. And so, you know, everybody was looking to this meeting to see how it would come together. I mean, it was extraordinary. It was excruciating. It was a brutal dressing down of a foreign leader in the Oval Office. And presidents just don't do that. They get frustrated at times and sometimes they're appointed moments, but nothing like this verbal assault that we've seen even on an adversary, much less on an ally. And I think in history. We're gonna look back on this as a unique, singular moment, Right.

[Michael Bavaro]

And not just for the spectacle of it, but for its actual consequentialness.

[Peter Baker]

Absolutely right. This is a rupture of a relationship now between the United states and Ukraine 11 years after Russia, Russia first invaded, three years after its full fledged invasion in 2022. And America has been Ukraine's best friend, biggest partner, most important patron. And if this rupture, this blowup, this meltdown in the Oval Office means that the relationship now is on the rocks, it has great consequence for Ukraine especially, has great consequences for Russian aggression in the world, for Europe and for the United States, I would say.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. And for all those reasons, I suspect history will keep turning over this encounter for a very long time, as will we in this conversation in a few moments. But I think it's worth setting up a bit what led to this blowup and talk through the kind of dynamics into which both men entered the Oval Office on Friday.

[Peter Baker]

Right. Well, first of all, it's important to know the history. President Trump has never liked Ukraine in particular. He was convinced way back in his first term that Ukraine had been opposed his election in 2016. This is a Russian talking point, right? This is a Russian intelligence fable, but one that Trump bought into. And of course, Zelensky was the other guy on the phone. He had the, quote, perfect phone call, not so perfect that led to his impeachment, in which he tried to bully Zelensky into launching a fake investigation of Joe Biden.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. Two men have never had such awkward history, perhaps as world leaders, very awkward history.

[Peter Baker]

And during the last four years when Trump was out of office, he was never supportive of Ukraine in its war against Russia. He praised Vladimir Putin for being a genius for sending troops to pressure Ukraine into making concessions. And he opposed aid to Ukraine, basically blocked it by Republicans in the House, forced them to block it for about six months. And sitting next to him was J.D. vance, who was famously quoted saying, I don't care what happens in Ukraine. So these are not supporters of Ukraine going into this meeting. And then over the last two weeks, you see the relationship really change dramatically. Instead of Joe Biden sending arms and standing with Ukraine saying we will never, never, never not be with you, you have Donald Trump coming in and calling Zelenskyy a dictator, saying it was Ukraine falsely that started the war, adopting Russian talking points about whether Zelenskyy should have to have elections. Never mind that Vladimir Putin is the dictator that he started the fake elections at home. He was basically 180 degrees changing American policy toward Russia and Ukraine, making clear that in this new cold war that we've been talking about now for so long, America was essentially switching sides, Right? And for Zelensky, this is existential for him. And he faced this pressure from Trump to sign a rare minerals deal, handing over a lot of Ukraine's natural resources to the United States without any assurance United States is going to give them anything back. Trump said, you owe us basically for all the aid that Biden gave you over the last three years. Right? So Zelensky unhappily, grudgingly comes to Washington as almost a supplicant to sign this agreement, hoping that that will keep Trump on Ukraine's side in any future peace talks.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. So Zelenskyy, as you've clearly just laid out here, has no affection for Trump, but will agree to come to Washington to sign this minerals deal, mostly to protect whatever existing, frayed, attenuated relationship the US still has with Ukraine as a supporter of its defense.

[Peter Baker]

Yes, that's right. Because he hopes that it will keep the United States on Ukraine's side, give it something at stake in the war, in this case, economic stakes. And he knows how much that matters to Trump. So Zelensky shows up at the White House on Friday morning, and Trump, Trump comes out at the door to greet him as he does with foreign leaders. And they have a polite handshake, but not a lot of warmth, I would say. And Trump makes a comment as Zelenskyy arrives that later, I think becomes kind of telling, says, I see you came dressed up for the occasion. Zelenskyy, of course, is wearing his tactical dark sweater, one of the versions of the combat type clothing he's been wearing for the last three years in solidarity with Ukrainian soldiers.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right.

[Peter Baker]

And they go into the Oval Office, they take their seats. There's a number of top officials there. J.D. vance is there, Secretary Rubio is there, and the meeting gets off to a relatively fine start.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Well, thank you very much. It's an honor to have President Zelensky of Ukraine. And we've been working very hard, very close. So we've actually known each other for a long time. We've been dealing with each other for a long time and very well.

[Peter Baker]

But Zelensky's trying to make sure Trump understands that Ukraine is the victim, not the villain in this war.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

I wanted to share with you some, some images how I've just, just can, can I, can I now? Yeah.

[Peter Baker]

He shows and pictures of Ukrainian men and women who have been released from Russian prisons and how amazing they are, how terribly or, you know, abused they had been in Russian captivity. Tries to get Trump to see that the Russians are the bad guys here.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

I mean, it's looking tragic. That's tough stuff.

[Peter Baker]

And the first 20 minutes, 25 minutes are perfectly normal, perfectly fine. But you begin to hear a little bit of an edge. You begin to hear a little bit the tension that's there. Does that provide security guarantees? Mr. President, I don't want to talk.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

About security yet because I want to get the deal done. You know, you fall into the same trap like everybody else. A billion times. You say it over and over. I want to get the deal done. Security is so easy. That's about 2% of the problem. I'm not worried about security. I'm worried about getting the deal done.

[Peter Baker]

And they just don't see the war in the same way.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Before my Presidency, from the 2014, Putin broken 25 times. 25 times he broken his own signature. 25 times he broke and ceasefire. He never broke to me. Never broke. No, no, you were the president. You were the president during. In 2016. You've been the president, Mr. President. You've been the president.

[Peter Baker]

But he, Zelensky does not want Trump to negotiate a ceasefire with Russia with no conditions. And Ukraine gets nothing out of it.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right.

[Peter Baker]

He doesn't think Putin can be trusted.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

That's why we will never accept just ceasefire. It will not work without security guarantees.

[Peter Baker]

He doesn't think that a ceasefire would hold. So he says, I need security guarantees. And that's what he's there to ask the United States for. And Trump does not want to have anything to do with it.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

I don't think you're going to need much security. I think once this deal gets done, it's over. Russia is not going to want to go back and nobody's going to want to go back. When this deal ends, I really believe this deal is going to be over.

[Peter Baker]

But then in the midst of this back and forth, suddenly you hear a new voice.

[Michael Bavaro]

Hey, I will respond to this.

[Peter Baker]

So, look, it's the vice president, J.D. vance, who hasn't really been talking in the meeting, and he pipes up and he says, I want to interject here. And he offers a pointed defense of Trump's approach to the conflict. Trump is the one, he says, who's going to bring peace. He's going to be engaging in diplomacy.

[Michael Bavaro]

That's what President Trump is doing.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Can I ask you? Sure, yeah.

[Peter Baker]

Yeah.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Okay. So.

[Peter Baker]

And Zelensky, who's been listening to all this, really feels like he has to respond here.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

During 2014 till 2022, was the situation the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him.

[Peter Baker]

And Zelenskyy basically proceeds to pick apart this idea that diplomacy is necessarily going to work. He points out there's a long history here. The war didn't just start three years ago, started in 2014, when Putin first sent forces into UK Ukraine, seized Crimea, began seizing parts of eastern Ukraine. And he points out that this war had been going on ever since, including during Trump's presidency.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

But after that, he broken the ceasefire he killed our people and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners, but he didn't do it.

[Peter Baker]

And that seems to get under Trump and Vance's skin.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. It feels worth noting that in this moment, Zelenskyy decides to call the vice president. J.D. not Vice President Vance.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

What kind of diplomacy, J.D. you are speaking about? What do you mean?

[Michael Bavaro]

Perhaps history will not note this as an important moment. I noted it.

[Peter Baker]

Yeah, absolutely. And look, you know, on one level, you can say he's trying to be friendly with him. Sometimes foreign leaders do refer to each other by their first names, but Vance takes offense. And Vance then jumps back in.

[Michael Bavaro]

Mr. President, Mr. President, with respect, I.

[Peter Baker]

Think it's disresp for you to come.

[Michael Bavaro]

Into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.

[Peter Baker]

And this is when things go from bad to very bad.

[Michael Bavaro]

You should be thanking the President for.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Trying to bring it into this country.

[Peter Baker]

You start hearing Vance say, you should be grateful to us and really putting Zelenskyy on the defensive there. And Zelensky, of course, has thanked America for three years quite prolifically. But you know what's actually, I think striking about that demand by Vance, you should be thanking us, is he is demanding that somebody thank two leaders who haven't supported Ukraine. Trump and Vance don't support Ukraine. And yet he is saying, you have to thank us.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right.

[Peter Baker]

And as Vance and Zelenskyy really kind of going at it, do you disagree.

[Michael Bavaro]

That you've had problems like bringing people into your military?

[Peter Baker]

Vance is pushing Zelenskyy on problems the Ukrainian military is having with manpower and so forth. And Zelensky says, yeah, of course we have problems. You'll have problems, too, though.

[Michael Bavaro]

Even you.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

But you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future.

[Michael Bavaro]

Translate what he's saying there, because it feels like a really important point Zelensky is trying to make.

[Peter Baker]

His point is that Russia poses a threat to the United States, not just Ukraine. A lot of times Trump talks about this. He says, this is really a problem for Europe. It's not for us. In fact, Trump has said, we have this big ocean between us, so what do we care what happens in Ukraine? And Zelensky is pushing back on that idea. Listen, yes, you have this nice ocean, and you don't feel it now. A lot of distance between you and Russia. That doesn't mean that Russia isn't also a threat to the United States. It doesn't mean the United States doesn't have A stake in this, has an interest in who wins this war and whether Russia comes out of it feeling rewarded for its aggression.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel.

[Peter Baker]

This is the moment that Trump now jumps in.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. You're gonna feel very good.

[Peter Baker]

And he begins to really kind of berate Zelensky in this very aggressive way.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us. You start having cards right now. You don't have your planes. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War Three. You're gambling with World War Three.

[Michael Bavaro]

In effect, what Trump is saying is, Zelensky, all you need to understand is that you have no power right now. We have all the power. Get on board or you're in real trouble.

[Peter Baker]

Yeah, exactly.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. Listen, you're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing. And then you tell us, I don't want to cease fire. I don't want to cease fire.

[Peter Baker]

What he's saying is, you have to accept whatever deal I make with Putin. You don't have any power. You're not able to influence things. And that's a really extraordinary thing to say to the leader of a country at war. He's saying, you don't get to choose here. I'm the one who's going to choose.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Here, because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards.

[Peter Baker]

What an extraordinary moment. Right, Right. These two leaders really going at it over who and what happens in this conflict in the heart of Europe.

[Michael Bavaro]

We should say at this moment, all three of these leaders, seasoned leaders, could have chosen to de escalate what's becoming an incredibly acrimonious, almost shouting match, but they don't. They all seem quite loaded for bear.

[Peter Baker]

They do. This is where clearly a lot of weeks, if not months, of tension have come to the surface, and they're just exploding in this meeting, and they're saying what they have been thinking or feeling for quite a while, and it just escalates rather than de escalates. You finally get to the point where Trump is relitigating the whole Russia investigation.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me, he went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. You ever hear of that deal? That was a phony. That was a phony. Hunter Biden, Joe Biden scam, Hillary Clinton.

[Peter Baker]

He says, vladimir Putin and I went through this whole Russia hoax.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Went through it. He was accused of all that stuff. He had nothing to do with it. It came out of Hunter Biden's bathroom. It came out of Hunter Biden's bedroom. It was disgusting.

[Peter Baker]

What an amazing thing to say, right? The person he clearly feels a bond with is Putin, not with Volodymyr Zelensky, who runs a Democratic country that has been allied with the United States and is under fire.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

The problem is, I've empowered you to be a tough guy.

[Peter Baker]

Finally, Trump lays down his cars and he says, but you're either gonna make.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

A deal or we're out. And if we're out, you'll fight it out. I don't think it's gonna be pretty, but you'll fight it out.

[Peter Baker]

Basically, either you're with us, either you go along with what I'm going to do, or we're out.

[Michael Bavaro]

We'll abandon you.

[Peter Baker]

We'll abandon you. It's a very stark threat.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

All right, I think we've seen enough. What do you think, huh? This is gonna be great television. I will say that. All right, we'll see what we can do.

[Peter Baker]

And then the reporters are escorted out of the room.

[Michael Bavaro]

Peter, once the shock wore off, for me at least, and as I told you, I'm watching this as well, I had this sense, and I wonder if you did as well, that people in the two delegations, the Zelensky camp and the Trump camp, they're gonna find a way to try to smooth this over after the cameras leave the room, because, of course, they are there to sign a deal.

[Peter Baker]

Exactly. This deal is supposed to be signed. They're supposed to use this deal to put the relationship on a new foundation going forward. And now with the cameras out of the room, are they going to make apologies or at least smooth it over? And will they still have the lunch? Will they still sign the deal? That was the whole point of him coming in the first place. Will they have the news conference been set up in the East Room waiting for us? Any minute now, we don't know. But then suddenly, we get the answer. Zelensky's car has just pulled up to the door of the West Wing, and he's leaving.

[Michael Bavaro]

We'll be right.

[Peter Baker]

Foreign.

[Michael Bavaro]

I'm Jonathan Swan. I'm a Reporter at the New York Times. You know, when people think about the media, your favorite podcast, you know, cable news panels, and different things, I think it's fair to say that myself and my reporting colleagues at the New York Times exist at the more unglamorous end of that spectrum. Our job is to dig out the facts that provide a foundation for these conversations. These facts don't just come out of the ether. It requires reporters to spend hours upon hours talking to sources, digging up documents. Also, if the story is a story that a powerful person doesn't want in print, there's threats of lawsuits and all kinds of things. So it's a really massive operation. There aren't that many places anymore who invest at that level in journalism. Without a well funded and rigorous free press, people in power have much more leeway to do whatever the heck it is that they want to do. If you think that it's worthwhile to have journalists on the job digging out information, you can subscribe to the New York Times, because without you, none of us can do the work that we do. Peter, pick a story up where you just left it off. What ends up happening behind the scenes based on your reporting that ultimately ends with this day becoming totally unsalvageable?

[Peter Baker]

Well, what we end up learning later is the two teams, the U.S. team and the Ukrainian team, head into separate rooms in the West Wing to collect themselves after this bruising battle in the Oval Office. And Zelenskyy still wants to salvage this thing. He still wants to sign the deal. He still wants to see if he can't smooth it over. But the US Side, Trump and his team are meeting in another part of the White House and they are furious. And the answer to them is no, it's over. Tell him to leave.

[Michael Bavaro]

Wow.

[Peter Baker]

And two US Officials then go to the room where Zelenskyy and his team are and explain to him, you're out of here.

[Michael Bavaro]

Basically, they're kicking Zelenskyy out of the White House.

[Peter Baker]

Exactly right. And so the reporters were all rushing out to the driveway, and there's this black Chevy suv, the Suburban, at the door of the West Wing. And out comes Volodymyr Zelenskyy, looking very grim faced as he climbs in. And then the Suburban pulls out of the White House driveway and off the White House grounds. And you realize just how much has changed in those few minutes.

[Michael Bavaro]

Wow.

[Peter Baker]

So lunch is off. The press conference is off. Trump's aides are busy eating the lunch that had actually been prepared for Zelensky. This roasted chicken in creme Brulee and Trump issues a statement on his social media platform and it says, I have determined that President Zelensky is not ready for peace if America is involved. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for peace.

[Michael Bavaro]

Peter the reactions to this encounter are all over the place, as you might expect. You've got Republicans, some of them now saying it's time for Zelensky to resign. And they are repeating the charge from Trump and Vance that Zelenskyy wasn't sufficiently respectful and that Ukraine should send the United States a leader who can show the President of the United States more respect. Then you've got congressional Democrats who are aghast that the president would berate the leader of a country that is an American ally and furious that we seem to be giving a boost to Russia by humiliating the leader of Ukraine. And so I'm curious what you're making of those two drastically different responses to this same encounter.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Senator Graham.

[Peter Baker]

Yeah, I was there on the White House driveway when Senator Lindsey Graham came out. What I think complete, utter disaster, essentially sent out by the White House to say not only that it was Zelensky's fault.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

I talked to Zelensky this morning. Don't take the bait. President Trump was in a very good mood last night. Somebody asked me, am I embarrassed about Trump? I have never been more proud of.

[Peter Baker]

The president and that he's proud of Trump for standing up for America, but that if Zelenskyy wouldn't change that he should even resign.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

What I saw in the Oval Office was disrespectful. And I don't know if we can ever do business with Zelensky again.

[Peter Baker]

And What a remarkable 180 degrees for the gram wing of the Republican Party, what used to be the Reagan wing of the Republican Party. Graham was one of the most hawkish pro Ukraine, anti Russia voices on the scene. And now he has fallen in line behind Trump. But to Democrats, the only person who had been disrespected in that meeting was Zelensky.

[Michael Bavaro]

So all Zelensky asked yesterday was, how do you know that diplomacy will work? And because he had the audacity to ask that simple question, he was ushered out of the White House. And apparently the United States is going to do Putin's bidding and hand him.

[Peter Baker]

And the Democrats are the ones who are left to defend Ukraine and call for more skeptical view of Russia and to cast Russia as the enemy.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Zelensky is leading a country trying to defend democracy against an authoritarian dictator, Putin, who invaded his country.

[Peter Baker]

And our job is to defend the.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

250 year tradition that we have of.

[Peter Baker]

Being the democratic leader of the world, not turn our backs on a struggling country that is trying to do the right thing.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. So that's the domestic political response, Peter. But the responses that most intrigued me were from people who said, basically, wasn't this a moment of unvarnished truth telling from President Trump? Ukraine does not have a good hand. It is deeply reliant on American military aid. It's struggling to recruit soldiers. It cannot win a war of attrition against Russia, and it's not really a priority for the Trump administration. So, in a way, Trump was being very clear and very direct about all of that in this confrontation.

[Peter Baker]

Yeah, I mean, look, it is certainly the case that a lot of people believe the United States needs to focus his priorities either at home or perhaps against China, because that's the bigger threat. And therefore, we have to recalibrate our relationship with Europe, our commitments in Europe, our hostility toward Russia. And the strategic thought that you hear from some people behind what happened on Friday is it's time for us to cut bait and be friendlier with Russia because we need them against China. I don't know how much that's part of Trump's own thinking, but certainly some people around him give voice to that analysis. And even so, of course, to see the very personal and visceral way that Trump was willing to cut loose an ally in furtherance of this strategy was pretty striking. Even if that's what you wanted to do. Doing it in this way, I think, was pretty shocking for a lot of people.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. Which is a slightly different question and one that is important, which is, was this done poorly? Impolitely. Shockingly so to some. But I think it feels like Trump's goal here is to focus, like you just said, on Russia and China, and that in the end, Ukraine stands in the way of that. Trump wants to be sitting down across from Putin or Xi Jinping. He does not want to have to be worrying about a war in Ukraine.

[Peter Baker]

No question that Trump respects strength and power. And he sees the world as a place where big men and big powers like the United States, Putin's Russia, divide up their spheres of influence very much like a 19th century or, you know, mid 20th century view of things, while the democracies will simply have to eat it if they have to. In other words, what matters more is who is powerful, not who has the same kind of governmental system.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right.

[Peter Baker]

And that leaves the question then, does Ukraine become, in effect, roadkill on the way to this, you know, real politic goal? And what happens to the US Relationship with other democracies in Asia and Europe? And do we embolden authoritarian governments like Putin by rewarding them for their aggression?

[Michael Bavaro]

Well, a related question to this, Peter, is, is Europe going to pick up the slack if the US If Trump is going to walk away from this to focus on Russia and China and to use your words, potentially leave Ukraine as roadkill in the pursuit of that goal, is Europe gonna step in and protect Ukraine? And it was striking how much in the hours after Zelenskyy was kicked out of the White House, European leaders lionized him and posed the question of what their role needed to be if the US Walks away. I mean, the prime minister of France wrote, by refusing to bend in Washington, Volodymyr Zelenskyy was the honor of Europe. But then she goes on to write, now it is upon us Europeans to decide what we want to be and whether we want to be. And I took that to mean her saying, europe, are we gonna step up and solve the problems for Ukraine that the US has until now but seems to be walking away from?

[Peter Baker]

Yeah, absolutely. So as soon as Zelenskyy leaves Washington, he heads to London, where he meets with European leaders, including Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister. And this was already planned before the blow up in the Oval Office. But it's such a remarkable amount of timing because he is greeted with open arms. Right. The Europeans have rallied to his side in this one after the other. Across the continent. They said, we stand with Ukraine, we stand with Zelensky. They say the things that you just quoted the French Prime Minister as saying. And Starmer promises more funding, a couple more billion dollars worth of weapons for advanced air defense missiles, and talks about a peacekeeping force that the Europeans can put together even without the Americans. Once there is a peace deal, if there's a pe, try to enforce it. But it's a test. It's a real test. Because time and time again, Europeans have said, yeah, we're going to step up and take more of the burden from the United States without actually following through. And they have risen to the occasion with Ukraine over these last three years, they've actually donated more money for Ukraine's defense than the United States has. You may have heard Trump say the opposite. He's wrong about that. But it's still a question whether they can do everything that Ukraine would need and would lose without American support. And for Europe it really is a moment of truth.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. And it seems worth noting that UK's Prime Minister, even as he announced more money for Ukraine, said, we've gotta be honest, we still need a Backstop from the U.S. there's nothing approaching a true guarantee of Ukraine's safety unless the US Is involved.

[Peter Baker]

That's right. I mean, you know, they don't expect us to put troops on the ground. What they would like would be air support or logistical support or intel support, and mainly just political and geopolitical support. The idea that the United States is behind them on this and that Russia ought not to try anything because it would not just be aggravating Europe, but aggravating the United States and taking a real chance there. And it's not clear that Trump wants to do that. He said, I don't really care too much about what the security situation is after I make peace. He trusts Vladimir Putin to keep the deal, doesn't believe that there really needs to be any security guarantee because he thinks Putin can be trusted. Well, nobody in Ukraine thinks that, and very few people in Europe think that.

[Michael Bavaro]

Right. Peter, my final question for you is about Zelensky and what, based on your reporting, you think he is going to do. Now, he's been issued this offer via President Trump to return to the White House, but only as a man of peace. And from everything you're saying here, what that really means is that the President wants him to return as a person willing to capitulate and recognize that the US doesn't really care as much as it once did about protecting Ukraine, and that he has to live and die by Trump's hope that Putin would keep a deal that Trump makes, and that means giving up a lot. And so I'm curious, do you think Zelensky will return to the White House on the terms that Trump wants, or does he not return, and does he instead focus on Europe as a replacement and savior for Ukraine, as potentially insufficient as that might be?

[Peter Baker]

Yeah, I think it's a great question, really. One of the essential questions out of all this. Look, in the immediate aftermath of this meltdown in the Oval Office, he tried to smooth it over, first with social media posts and later with an interview on Fox News and in other comments saying, you know, look, thank you, America. Thank you to the President. And it was him, I think, trying to smooth it over in his own way. But he is a man of pride, too. He's a man struggling to save his country from an aggressor. And there's only so far he was willing to go. He said on Fox News he didn't think he had anything to apologize for. He regretted it. He was sorry it happened, but he didn't think he had done anything wrong. And you're right, Trump, if they put this back together, and it's possible that they do, Trump will want him to come back in a supplicant form. And Volodymyr Zelenskyy is a lot of things, but he doesn't really have the flattery gene that some of these other foreign leaders use to suck up to Trump. It's just not his nature. And we'll see whether or not he can do that, whether he should do that, whether that would be enough even if he did. This is the new order right now. And the new order is, you know, if you are not deferential to Trump, he will punish you. So for Zelensky, the choice here, basically, is how far is he willing to defer, how far is he willing to flatter, how far is he willing to subordinate himself on some level to Trump? And if he did do that, would it even work? Would it even get him what he really thinks he needs?

[Michael Bavaro]

Well, Peter, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

[Peter Baker]

Thanks for having me. Great to talk with you.

[Michael Bavaro]

On Sunday night, a spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the Trump administration's new policies towards countries like Ukraine, encapsulated by the Oval Office confrontation between Trump and Zelensky, had brought the United States much closer to Russia's own approach. The spokesman said, quote, the new administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. This, he added, largely aligns with our vision. We'll be right back. Hey, I'm Tracy Mumford. You can join me every weekday morning for the headlines from the New York Times.

[Peter Baker]

Now, we're about to see a spectacle that we've never seen before.

[Michael Bavaro]

It's a show that catches you up on the biggest news stories of the day. I'm here in Red Square. We'll put you on the ground where news is unfolding.

[Peter Baker]

I just got back from a trip out to the front line and every.

[Michael Bavaro]

Every soldier and bring you the analysis and expertise you can only get from the Times newsroom. I just can't emphasize enough how extraordinary this moment is. Look for the headlines wherever you get your podcasts. Here's what else you need to know today. On Sunday, Israel disrupted its existing and agreed upon framework framework for ending its war with Hamas by saying it would immediately end the flow of all goods and humanitarian assistance into Gaza. The decision is an attempt by Israel to temporarily extend its ceasefire deal with Hamas without advancing to the next, more delicate stage of negotiations. That stage would have required Israel to withdraw troops from Gaza and to commit to a permanent ceasefire in return for the release of the remaining Israeli hostages inside Gaza. Hamas immediately denounced Israel's decision, but it was clear that the Trump administration supports Israel's new plan. And over the weekend, US Secretary of State Marco Rubio invoked emergency power powers to bypass Congress and send $4 billion in weapons to Israel. Today's episode was produced by Will Reed and Mooj Zaidy. It was edited by Liz O'Ballin, contains original music by Dan Powell and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balboro. See you tomorrow.

[Peter Baker]

And now a next level moment from AT&T business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for Internet International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding. And International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T5G lets you deal with any issues with ease, so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T5G requires a compatible plan and device. Coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network.