Rachel Abrams (3:34)

Basically. The hearing, in your view, is a kind of a rare window into the inner workings of the CDC under Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (3:43)

Yes, I think that's right.

Rachel Abrams (3:46)

Okay, so set the stage for me. How does this hearing start?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (3:51)

So the room is packed. There's an overflow room because there's so many people out in the hallway waiting to get in. And Dr. Susan Menarez, the fired CDC director, and also Dr. Deborah Howery, the former CDC chief medical officer, walk in, you know, and the cameras are going, but really, all eyes are on Menares, the chairman of the committee. Senator Bill Cassidy, Republican of Louisiana, bangs the gavel, opens the hearing.

Senator Bill Cassidy (4:21)

This hearing is a direct response to President Trump's call for radical transparency in how we conduct governmental affairs, and announces.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (4:32)

That he is convening this hearing because he wants to know if federal health agencies are living up to the goal of radical transparency that President Trump has set.

Rachel Abrams (4:45)

So he's basically using President Trump's words.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (4:47)

He's really using Kennedy's words. It's Kennedy who's always talked about radical transparency.

Senator Bill Cassidy (4:53)

And I thank Secretary Robert Kennedy for echoing that call for radical transparency.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (4:59)

And Cassidy was kind of throwing those words back at the health secretary. Now, it's important to remember that Cassidy is in a really precarious position.

Senator Bill Cassidy (5:12)

I approach this hearing as both a doctor and as a senator.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (5:16)

He's a doctor, an ardent proponent of vaccines, and he really agonized publicly over whether or not to vote to confirm Kennedy. And he did vote to confirm him. He cast a crucial vote, and he did so, he said at the time, because Kennedy had offered him assurances that they would have a very close working relationship and that he would not undo current vaccine policy or create parallel vaccine approval structures.

Senator Bill Cassidy (5:45)

Today, we'll hear from Dr. Manores and Dr. Houry, who have raised serious allegations that strike at the core of the CDC's credibility.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (5:53)

And he's clearly uncomfortable with some of the things that Kennedy has done. And he also notes that Dr. Minarez is the first ever CDC confirmed director. All the Republicans voted for her, he said, and she gets fired 29 days later.

Senator Bill Cassidy (6:13)

And so part of our responsibility today is to ask ourselves if someone is fired 29 days after every Republican Votes for her. Like, what happened? Did we fail? Was there something we should have done differently?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (6:30)

He says, did we do our job? Is there something we missed?

Rachel Abrams (6:34)

Yeah, I was watching the hearing too, and what really struck me is that Cassidy seemed so, frankly, kind of frustrated that this person that he, as we know, was on the fence about seemed to have not really lived up to some of the things that he promised Congress. And so Cassidy, like, sets the tone for this hearing.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (6:53)

Right.

Rachel Abrams (6:53)

And the big question, it seemed, was what happened inside the CDC from Dr. Minara's point of view.

Dr. Susan Menarez (7:02)

Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you again. Secretary Kennedy himself swore me in on July 31, calling me a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (7:16)

So Manara's uses her opening statement to lay that out. She says a lot of things have been said about the reason she was removed.

Dr. Susan Menarez (7:25)

Since my removal, several explanations have been offered that I told the secretary I would resign, that I was not aligned with the administration priorities, or that I was untrustworthy. None of those reflect what actually happened.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (7:45)

She says none of that is true.

Dr. Susan Menarez (7:47)

He directed me to commit in advance to approving every ACIP recommendation, regardless of the scientific evidence.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (7:58)

She says that he wanted her to commit in advance to approving all the recommendations of his hand picked panel of vaccine advisors. He wanted her to fire CDC civil servants, career scientists responsible for vaccine policy.

Dr. Susan Menarez (8:13)

She said, no, I could not replace evidence with ideology or compromise my integrity.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (8:20)

And at some point, he says to.

Dr. Susan Menarez (8:21)

Her, secretary Kennedy told me he could not trust me.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (8:25)

He can't trust her.

Dr. Susan Menarez (8:26)

I told the secretary that if he believed he could not trust me, he could fire me.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (8:30)

And Manares testifies that. She said to him, if you believe you can't trust me, you can fire me.

Rachel Abrams (8:36)

Very different.

Dr. Susan Menarez (8:38)

Yeah, I could have stayed silent, agreed to the demands, and no one would have known.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (8:45)

And she wraps up by saying that she could have stayed, she could have kept the title, but that doing that would cost her the one thing that was most important, which was her own scientific integrity.

Rachel Abrams (8:59)

So basically, in her testimony, she's trying to set the record straight on what went down that led to her firing.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (9:06)

That's right. But when the Democrats questioned her, Senator Hassan, especially Senator Maggie Hassan, they kind of gave her an opening to talk about the thing that I was really interested in, which is, what did it feel like to work for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. When you pushed back on Secretary Kennedy's demands, how did he react?

Dr. Susan Menarez (9:28)

He was very upset.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (9:30)

Manara shared an account of this critical meeting that she had with the secretary and some of his top deputies about a week before her firing.

Dr. Susan Menarez (9:41)

And she says he was very upset throughout the entirety of our discussion.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (9:47)

Kennedy was very upset and very animated.

Dr. Susan Menarez (9:50)

It was not a productive exchange, and.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (9:54)

She clearly doesn't want to go too far with that. But she tells the senators that Kennedy hurled insults about CDC employees, emphasized that.

Dr. Susan Menarez (10:04)

CD employees were horrible people, that CDC employees were killing children and they don't care. He said that C employees were bought by the pharmaceutical industry. Called in that context, CDC the most corrupt federal agency in the world. He said CDC forced people to wear masks and social distance like a dictatorship. And the one I think that hurt me the most was a particularly vivid phrase. He said, during the COVID outbreak, CDC told hospitals to turn away sick COVID patients until they had blue lips before allowing them to get treatment.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (10:42)

And it is fair to say, in your view, that those statements are not true?

Dr. Susan Menarez (10:47)

Those statements are not true.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (10:49)

Thank you. She says none of that was true. None of those accusations were true.

Rachel Abrams (10:54)

So on the whole, it sort of seems like Dr. Manares is painting a picture of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. As a leader who is tense and angry in meetings and who seems to have a real disdain for the agency that she works for.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (11:11)

Yes, I think that's right. And another thing that came out under questioning from Senator Tammy Baldwin, the Democrat of Wisconsin, is that after Kennedy threatened to push Manara's out, she called the Health Committee to share her concerns.

Dr. Susan Menarez (11:31)

Secretary Kennedy became aware of that, and he was very concerned that I had spoken to members of Congress, and he told me I was never to do it again.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (11:43)

And he told her never to do that again, that she should not talk to members of Congress. Congress and the American people need to know what is happening at the cdc. And this censorship is not radical transparency, and it is unacceptable. Senator Bernie Sanders, independent of Vermont. But the ranking member says, I find.

Senator Bill Cassidy (12:09)

It rather astounding that anyone is concerned that government heads of agencies talk to the elected officials of the United States of America. That is what they are supposed to do.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (12:24)

This is exactly what a federal official is supposed to do. They're supposed to talk to senators who oversee their agency. And just the fact that Democrats were aligning themselves so aggressively with Manara's really illustrated this vast shift that has happened politically over the past month.

Rachel Abrams (12:44)

What kind of a shift?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (12:46)

Well, every Democrat voted against confirming Susan Menarez, and every Republican voted for her. And at this hearing today, you had Democrats lauding her as a hero.

Senator Bill Cassidy (13:02)

Thanks to our witnesses for being here today.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (13:04)

One of them, Senator Tim Kaine of.

Senator Bill Cassidy (13:06)

Virginia, Dr. Minarez, I owe you an.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (13:08)

Apology, actually apologized to her.

Senator Bill Cassidy (13:12)

When you were here for your confirmation hearing, my worries about the direction of HHS made me question you very significantly. On your backbone, you did a trait that is not in long supply in.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (13:24)

This town, he said. I voted against you because I thought you would have no backbone.

Senator Bill Cassidy (13:29)

And I was wrong. And I apologize to you for being wrong.

Rachel Abrams (13:33)

How often do you hear a member of Congress say something like that when.

Senator Bill Cassidy (13:36)

You'Re wrong to admit you're wrong?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (13:38)

I think it's pretty rare to hear a member of Congress say the words, I was wrong.

Rachel Abrams (13:43)

I thought it was so striking.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (13:45)

Yeah. And on the other side, you had Republicans, all of whom voted for Menares, really grappling with how to handle her firing. And for some, with their growing unease about Secretary Kennedy.

Rachel Abrams (14:26)

We'll be right back. Your home is an active investment, not a passive one. And with Rocket Mortgage, you can put your home equity to work right away. When you unlock your home equity, you unlock new doors for your family, renovations, extensions, even buying your next property. Get started today with smarter tools and guidance from real mortgage experts. Find out how@rocketmortgage.com Rocket Mortgage LLC, licensed in 50 states. Nmlsconsumeraccess.org 3030 hi, this is Ashley. I live in San Francisco with my boyfriend. We would love to officially share my New York Times subscription with separate logins.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (15:10)

We both love cooking, love being in.

Rachel Abrams (15:11)

The kitchen, but I'm a 30 minute.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (15:13)

And under efficient dinner girly.

Rachel Abrams (15:16)

I want a sheet pan meal. He is very elaborate. He wants to get into the storytelling. I want to be able to save my easy meals and check off the ones that I've completed. And I think him having his own profile would be great.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (15:29)

Ashley, we heard you introducing the New York Times family subscription. You get your own login and Mr.

Senator Bill Cassidy (15:36)

Elaborate gets his, plus room for two others. Find out more@nytimes.com family.

Rachel Abrams (15:45)

So, Cheryl, we just talked a lot about how the Democrats basically had this uniform opposition to the way that Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Has been leading the agency during his relatively short tenure. And watching the hearing, as you noted, the Republican response was really a lot more fractured. So I'm curious if you can just sort of describe the various approaches.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (16:07)

Yeah, so there are like two camps of Republicans at this hearing. There was the all in for Trump camp of Republicans, and by that I mean all in for Trump and Kennedy. And then there was the queasy kind of uneasy Republicans who voted to confirm Kennedy and are now Asking a lot of questions. Thank you.

Senator Bill Cassidy (16:32)

So, thank you so much for being here.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (16:34)

And doctor, to start with the all in Republicans, I think a good example is Mark Wayne Mullen.

Senator Bill Cassidy (16:41)

I think you might have an honesty issue here that we want to point out.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (16:45)

Mark Wayne Mullen was pressing her on whether or not she was telling the truth.

Senator Bill Cassidy (16:52)

Your conversation with the secretary, you said that he said he didn't trust you.

Dr. Susan Menarez (16:59)

Correct.

Senator Bill Cassidy (16:59)

You testified to that. Is that really how that conversation went? Because there's other people in the room. And I think the conversation was, can he trust you? And your answer was, he said he.

Dr. Susan Menarez (17:08)

Could not trust me.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (17:09)

No, the answer at one point Mullins.

Senator Bill Cassidy (17:11)

Said, ma', am, it was a recorded meeting.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (17:14)

There was a recording of the meeting on August 25 between Dr. Minarez and Secretary Kennedy in which Kennedy threatened to fire her. And that really set Chairman Cassidy off.

Senator Bill Cassidy (17:26)

I will note that if materials have been provided to Senator Mullen and invoked in official committee business, their committee records and all other senators on the committee have the right to see those records.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (17:40)

He said, if there is a recording of this meeting, the committee needs to have it. It shouldn't be in the possession of one senator. And then Mullen later told reporters he was mistaken. He didn't have a recording. There is no evidence really that a recording exists.

Rachel Abrams (17:56)

Oh, dear.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (17:57)

And then, you know, the other senators who are all in for Trump were the other doctors on the committee, Rand Paul of Kentucky and Roger Marshall of Kansas. And they seem to really want to reopen a discussion of vaccine policy in America. Okay.

Senator Bill Cassidy (18:17)

The CDC currently recommends between 70 and 80 shots over the child's lifetime. Do you fully support that recommendation that every child needs every vaccine as recommended by the cdc?

Dr. Susan Menarez (18:29)

The data associated with those recommendations has been validated and vetted. That is the current schedule.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (18:35)

They make clear that they think the CDC is unwilling to challenge its decade old recommendations for childhood vaccines. And they are prodding Menares to talk about the evidence.

Senator Bill Cassidy (18:51)

See, everybody's like blithely going along, we can't change the childhood. You're somehow terrible if you want to change the childhood. We should be discussing what is the childhood vaccine schedule. And the burden should be on you. You want to make all the kids take this. The burden is upon you.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (19:07)

And Paul was saying, look, we want to open up a discussion here about childhood vaccine recommendations, all vaccine recommendations.

Rachel Abrams (19:19)

Okay, so that's the camp of Republicans who are aligning themselves with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And President Trump. What about the other Republican camp you mentioned? I think you called them queasy.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (19:29)

The queasy camp.

Rachel Abrams (19:30)

Yes, the queasy camp.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (19:31)

The queasy camp is really led by Senator Cassidy, but also includes, I think, Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, Lisa Murkowski, the Republican of Alaska. And all express serious concern with Secretary Kennedy's approach to vaccine policy.

Rachel Abrams (19:52)

What happens then to this scientific mission when there are none of the career public health professionals to advise on the policy?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (20:01)

But Cassidy is Exhibit A.

Senator Bill Cassidy (20:05)

As I close, I'm going to speak as a liver doctor, you know, as.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (20:10)

Chairman of the committee, Cassidy has the right to make closing remarks to close out the hearing. And he uses his remarks to deliver this impassioned speech on behalf of a vaccine that is very, very important to him. The hepatitis B vaccine.

Senator Bill Cassidy (20:27)

Folks know I'm a physician, as it turns out, I am a hepatologist, which is a liver specialist and have published papers on liver disease and have seen people die from hepatitis.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (20:37)

He's a liver specialist and the vaccine is important to him because hepatitis B is a disease of the liver. But the vaccine is also in Kennedy's crosshairs.

Senator Bill Cassidy (20:50)

One thing that reportedly is going to be discussed at the upcoming ACIP meeting is ending the recommendation for the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (20:58)

Kennedy has kind of gone after the low hanging fruit, if you will. He narrowed recommendations on Covid vaccines, and hepatitis B vaccine is clearly up next in his sights. The vaccine is given routinely to infants at birth. That is the recommendation, but there's controversy over it. Hepatitis B is a disease that is transmitted either sexually or through dirty needles, can also be transmitted during birth through the birth canal. And people like Kennedy and Rand Paul say, look, if this is a sexually transmitted disease and you get it through drug use, sharing dirty needles, let's just test moms for hepatitis B when they give birth, and if they're not positive for it, let them make a choice about whether to give this vaccine to their baby. It doesn't have to be routine.

Senator Bill Cassidy (21:58)

For those who say, why should a child be vaccinated for a sexually transmitted disease when they're at birth? The child passes through the birth canal, and that passage through the birth canal makes that child vulnerable to the virus being transmitted. If that child is infected at birth, more than 90% of them develop chronic, lifelong infection.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (22:20)

But supporters of the vaccine say that you'd really be exposing a lot of kids to harm if you did that, that it'd be really difficult to screen every mom for hepatitis B. And so that is a debate that is going to happen just this week before the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices.

Rachel Abrams (22:45)

The Committee that makes recommendations for vaccines.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (22:48)

Yes. And the committee is going to vote on the recommendation. And Cassidy clearly feels a real sense of urgency here.

Senator Bill Cassidy (22:59)

Now, by the way, there are some who said they've never seen it, so therefore it cannot exist. It does occur. It occurs less often now. So we can argue now that we've controlled it. Do we let the genie out of the bottle?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (23:09)

He's got the platform here on the eve of this hearing, and he wants to make his views known. And his views are at odds with those of the health Secretary that he is almost singularly responsible for installing an office.

Senator Bill Cassidy (23:29)

Thank you again for the witnesses. Thank you for the audience. You're very respectful. The committee stands adjourned.

Rachel Abrams (23:36)

The statement that Cassidy makes at the end of the hearing, in a lot of ways sort of seemed like he's setting the stage for something much larger, that this fight over public health isn't just about one vaccine, that he is talking about something that feels a little bit more existential.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (23:54)

Yes. I think he is using hepatitis B to illustrate the broader story of what will happen if all of these vaccine recommendations get rolled back. And I think he's kind of saying that, you know, we did the COVID vaccines, now we're going to go after hepatitis. What's next? What other disease is going to be on the horizon because vaccine recommendations are being undone? He's issuing a warning.

Rachel Abrams (24:30)

But beyond the debate about vaccines, in some ways, it feels like this hearing was a larger referendum about how much pushback is possible in this current political environment. And what I thought seemed like it was on display here was that Republicans who did not agree with what is happening at the CDC, they could push back on RFK Jr. For undermining science, in their view. But what they would not do is they would not push back on President Trump. And that was a line that senators like Murkowski and Collins and Cassidy, that was something they were so careful to tow.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (25:08)

I think that's exactly right. Cassidy, he is in a tight spot. He's running for reelection. He's got a primary challenge from the right. And to the extent that RFK Jr. Is embraced by Trump, it will be very difficult to really go after him. But if Trump grows dissatisfied in some way with Kennedy, then it will be a lot easier for these Republicans who are uneasy with the health secretary to go after him. But there isn't evidence of that yet. My colleague Maggie Haberman and I reported last week that while there are tensions between Trump and Kennedy, there's no evidence of a break between them.

Rachel Abrams (26:01)

Cheryl? I feel like there were a couple things that stood out to me about this hearing. One, as you mentioned, was this high wire act that Republicans were doing. And another one was the fact that we were hearing from somebody who was directly singled out by the Trump administration to be fired, speaking publicly for the first time in this obviously very public format. And I just sort of wonder at the end of all of this, what was your big takeaway?

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (26:31)

This is about the health of future generations. Vaccines have long been considered a singular achievement of public health. Other than clean water and sanitation. Vaccines have swept scourges out of our lives from smallpox to polio to what were once considered more routine childhood diseases like measles before the vaccine was introduced in 1963. And we're at this moment where everything is being thrown into question. All of this is up for debate. And you saw that in the split between Republicans, in between the Republican doctors, right? You had one Dr. Cassidy saying, don't undo this progress. We need these vaccines. And you had another Dr. Rand Paul saying, look, we need to start having a debate. We need to open up a debate. And I think what going to see is really the diminution of the influence of the CDC. We're already seeing that. For its 80 years in existence, the CDC has issued recommendations that have been followed by states, every state in the country. That is no longer the case. We have breakaway states now like Florida, which announced that it is ending its childhood vaccine mandates. Cassidy's own home state of Louisiana has a whooping cough outbreak. Now two children have died in that outbreak. And Cassidy has asked publicly for Kennedy to recommend and encourage vaccination. Kennedy hasn't said a word about the pertussis or whooping cough vaccine. So I think we're really on a precipice and I think that's what this hearing revealed.

Rachel Abrams (28:40)

Cheryl, thank you so much.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (28:42)

Thanks, Rachel.

Rachel Abrams (28:47)

We'll be right back. Your home is an active investment, not a passive one. And with Rocket Mortgage, you can put your home equity to work right away. When you unlock your home equity, you unlock new doors for your family, renovations, extensions, even buying your next property. Get started today with smarter tools and guidance from real mortgage experts. Find out how@rocketmortgage.com Rocket Mortgage LLC, licensed in 50 states. Nmlsconsumeraccess.org 3030 here's what else you need to know today. ABC announced on Wednesday that it was pulling Jimmy Kimmel's late night show, quote, indefinitely over comments that he made in his opening monologue earlier this week about the motives of the man who Shot Charlie Kirk.

Senator Bill Cassidy (29:41)

We hit some new lows over the.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (29:42)

Weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to.

Rachel Abrams (29:52)

Score political points from it. In between, conservatives accused the longtime host of inaccurately describing the politics of the alleged shooter. The abrupt decision by the network, which is owned by the Walt Disney Company, came hours after the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, Brendan Carr, assailed Mr. Kimmel and suggested that the FCC might take action against the network because of the remarks that Kimmel had made on his Monday television and the move exacerbated concerns that the Trump administration was intentionally targeting media organizations and speech that it objects to. And the Federal Reserve lowered interest rates for the first time this year by a quarter point and signaled that it might cut rates again this year because of ongoing concerns about the labor market. The decision comes as President Trump has intensified his pressure campaign on the the Fed, which has included an attempt to oust a sitting member of the Board of Governors. Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan, Jessica Chung and Alex Stern, with help from Caitlin O'. Keefe. It was edited by M.J. davis, Lynn and Liz O' Ballin and was engineered by Chris that's it for the Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.

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