Podcast Summary: The Daily - "The Fired C.D.C. Director’s Testimony"
Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Rachel Abrams (with reporting by Sheryl Gay Stolberg)
Topic: Former CDC Director Susan Menarez’s Congressional Testimony and the Inner Turmoil at the CDC Under Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
Overview
This episode of The Daily delves into the high-profile congressional testimony of the recently fired CDC director, Dr. Susan Menarez. The discussion explores the unprecedented chaos unfolding at the CDC under Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., the visible rifts within the Republican Party over vaccine policy, and what Dr. Menarez’s testimony reveals about transparency, leadership, and the future of public health in the United States.
Key Points & Insights
Setting the Stage: Why This Hearing Matters
- CDC in Crisis: The CDC has experienced rapid leadership turnover, mass resignations, and public clashes with Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (RFK Jr.), culminating in Dr. Susan Menarez’s firing after only 29 days.
- Rare Window: Dr. Menarez’s testimony offers a rare inside view of the CDC under current leadership (03:34).
- Political Backdrop: The hearing exposes cracks within the Republican Party between those loyal to President Trump and Kennedy, and those alarmed by their approach to vaccine policy.
The Hearing: Conflicting Narratives
Dr. Susan Menarez’s Testimony
- Opening Statement: Menarez stresses her scientific credentials, denies false explanations about her firing, and describes pressure to prioritize ideology over evidence:
"He directed me to commit in advance to approving every ACIP recommendation, regardless of the scientific evidence."
— Dr. Susan Menarez, [07:58] - Refusal to Sacrifice Integrity: Menarez resisted demands to rubber-stamp all recommendations and to fire career scientists. She framed her firing as a consequence of upholding scientific rigor over political pressure.
“I could have stayed silent, agreed to the demands, and no one would have known. But I would have lost my integrity.”
— Dr. Susan Menarez, [08:38] - RFK Jr.'s Conduct: Menarez recounts tense meetings where RFK Jr. disparaged CDC employees as "horrible people" and accused the agency of "killing children," being "bought by the pharmaceutical industry," and being "the most corrupt federal agency in the world" ([10:04]).
Attempts to Control Testimony
- After contacting Congress with concerns, Menarez says Kennedy admonished her and forbade future communication with lawmakers ([11:31]).
"Congress and the American people need to know what is happening at the CDC. And this censorship is not radical transparency, and it is unacceptable."
— Dr. Susan Menarez, [11:43]
Political Reversals & Partisan Reactions
Shifts Among Democrats and Republicans
- Democrats: Once opposed to Menarez’s confirmation, Democrats now laud her as a public health hero (Sen. Tim Kaine apologizes for doubting her backbone; [13:12]).
“I was wrong. And I apologize to you for being wrong.”
— Sen. Tim Kaine, [13:29] - Republicans: Deep divisions surface between pro-Kennedy/Trump loyalists and uneasy, moderate Republicans.
Two Camps of Republicans
- All-In Trump/Kennedy Loyalists:
- Examples: Senators Markwayne Mullin, Rand Paul, and Roger Marshall.
- Mullin disputes Menarez’s account, references a supposed (but nonexistent) audio recording to cast doubt on her credibility ([16:45], [17:11]).
- Paul and Marshall press Menarez on vaccine policy, seeking to open up debates on the childhood vaccine schedule ([18:17]).
- The “Queasy” Moderates:
- Led by Sen. Bill Cassidy (also a physician), joined by Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski.
- Express grave concern at Kennedy’s anti-science stance, especially the move to roll back hepatitis B vaccine recommendations for newborns ([19:29], [20:05]).
“The child passes through the birth canal, and that passage through the birth canal makes that child vulnerable to the virus being transmitted. If that child is infected at birth, more than 90% of them develop chronic, lifelong infection.”
— Sen. Bill Cassidy, [21:58]- Cassidy’s closing remarks serve as a warning about the consequences of undermining established vaccine guidance.
The Larger Stakes
Existential Debate Over Public Health
- The hearing is framed as a referendum on the limits of internal dissent, scientific authority, and political loyalty in public health ([24:30]).
- Even Republicans troubled by RFK Jr.’s leadership tread carefully—criticizing him but not President Trump.
Future Implications
- Cassidy warns of the "diminution of the influence of the CDC," as states like Florida drop vaccine mandates and Louisiana experiences fatal outbreaks ([26:31]).
“We're really on a precipice and I think that's what this hearing revealed.”
— Sheryl Gay Stolberg, [28:37] - The debate goes beyond one vaccine, posing urgent questions about the long-term fate of public health science in America.
Notable Quotes & Moments
| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Moment | |-----------|------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:58 | Dr. Susan Menarez | "He directed me to commit in advance to approving every ACIP recommendation, regardless of the scientific evidence." | | 10:04 | Dr. Susan Menarez | "CDC employees were killing children and they don't care... CDC the most corrupt federal agency in the world." | | 13:29 | Sen. Tim Kaine | "I was wrong. And I apologize to you for being wrong." | | 17:11 | Sen. Markwayne Mullin | (accuses Menarez of lying, references fictitious meeting recording) | | 21:58 | Sen. Bill Cassidy | "The child passes through the birth canal, and that passage...makes that child vulnerable to the virus being transmitted." | | 26:31 | Sheryl Gay Stolberg | "We're really on a precipice and I think that's what this hearing revealed." |
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [01:33] The CDC’s recent turmoil and introduction to Dr. Menarez’s testimony
- [03:51] The mood and stakes of the packed Senate hearing
- [05:12] Cassidy’s complex position and regret regarding Kennedy
- [07:02] Dr. Menarez’s opening statement—her account of her firing
- [09:06] What it was like to work for RFK Jr.; the absence of "radical transparency"
- [10:04] Menarez’s recounting of Kennedy’s hostile remarks about the CDC
- [13:02] Democrats rally around Menarez, apology from Senator Kaine
- [16:07] Factions emerge among Republicans
- [18:17] Vaccine policy is debated by pro-Trump senators
- [19:29] Cassidy and moderate Republicans push back
- [20:05] Cassidy’s passionate defense of the hepatitis B vaccine
- [24:30] Examination of the broader significance: public health, dissidence, and the Trump era
- [26:31] Stolberg’s reflection: CDC’s future and loss of influence
- [28:40-end] Closing thoughts and contextual updates
Conclusion
This episode spotlights a pivotal moment in American public health: transparent testimony reveals internal strife at the CDC, deep splits in the Republican Party, and an ongoing battle over science, integrity, and political allegiance. Dr. Menarez’s testimony and the senators’ responses foreshadow an era of intense debate and uncertainty for the nation’s vaccine policies and trust in its health institutions.