Podcast Summary: “The Interview: 3 Senators Who Quit on Why Congress Won’t Stand Up to Trump”

Podcast: The Daily (The New York Times)
Host: Lulu Garcia Navarro
Guests: Former Senators Jeff Flake (R-AZ), Joe Manchin (I-WV), and outgoing Sen. Tina Smith (D-MN)
Air Date: December 13, 2025

Overview

This episode of “The Interview” brings together three high-profile senators—Jeff Flake, Joe Manchin, and Tina Smith—each of whom has recently left or announced departure from the Senate. Host Lulu Garcia Navarro conducts a roundtable discussion probing why Congress, particularly the Senate, has struggled to act as a meaningful check on executive power during the second Trump administration. The conversation candidly explores the decline of Senate collegiality, partisanship, rule changes, leadership failures, political incentives, and the inability to solve pressing national issues.

1. The State of the Senate: One Word (02:50–03:57)

• Lulu asks each senator for a one-word assessment of today’s Senate:
  • Tina Smith: “Broken.” (03:09)
  • Jeff Flake: “Retreat… just willingly give up Article One.” (03:10)
  • Joe Manchin: “Abdication… they've abdicated… responsibilities... their purpose of being there.” (03:25)
• All three express bleak views on the institution’s current state and willingness to surrender its core powers to the presidency.

Joe Manchin: “You want us to call them cowards, or what do you want us to say, Lulu?” (04:05)

2. Personal Reflections & Political Departure (04:13–10:24)

• Jeff Flake discusses longstanding warnings about authoritarian tendencies and Congress’s willing surrender, especially on war powers and tariffs.
  • “Congress has abdicated its responsibility… senators have willingly kind of given that up. And you have a president who is eager to take just about everything he can get.” (04:42)
• Joe Manchin reflects on leaving a deeply red state and why Democrats have lost touch with working-class voters:
  • “The Washington Democrats… have spent more effort… for able-bodied, capable people that should be working, that don't work or won’t… I've had enough.” (05:53)
• Tina Smith truthfully admits her main motivation was to spend time with family but acknowledges recent political violence and toxicity (e.g., assassination of a friend, local school shooting, threats from the president) also weighed on her. She expresses faith in Minnesota’s Democratic “bench” and importance of passing the torch. (07:31–09:05)
• Flake: “I would have liked to have served another term… But the price… would have been… to say, you know, those principles I said I believed in, I no longer do. The cost… was too steep to pay.” (09:20)
• Manchin and Flake lament the loss of a Senate culture where election rivals could become partners in governance.

3. How the Senate Became What It Is (10:31–13:38)

• Manchin traces the transformation to an influx of House members with simple-majoritarian instincts and rising partisanship, referencing the “Hastert Rule” (only passing bills with majority of majority support). (11:14)
• Flake and Smith agree that increased partisanship and leadership choices (citing McConnell’s focus on defeating Obama) have “supercharged” division and inaction.

4. Congressional Abdication and Executive Power (12:50–15:46)

• The group agrees that the current crisis is not inevitable but the product of recent leadership failures, misaligned incentives, and reluctance to check presidential overreach.
  • Flake: “We've never seen a time when presidential powers have been given back. The president… has amassed far more power than the Supreme Court has granted him.” (13:43)
• Smith: Many behind-the-scenes Republican senators don’t like the status quo but “are just waiting for the right moment” before pushing back. Meanwhile, institutional powers “are gushing out of the Capitol.”
• Smith also blames the Senate's procedural rules (not just the filibuster) for stymying action.

5. The Filibuster & Senate Reform Debate (15:46–17:17)

• Smith advocates for requiring real filibusters (“at least have to stand on the damn floor and talk”). (15:48)
• Manchin agrees with Smith about filibuster reform, but Flake pushes against eliminating the filibuster entirely, deeming it vital for bipartisan cooperation.
  • Flake: “Every Senate ought to resist [removing the filibuster]… because it is one of the few mechanisms left that forces people to work together.” (16:02)
• Smith says the filibuster doesn’t inherently reduce partisanship and sometimes prevents necessary action.

6. Party Leadership and Senate Dysfunction (16:48–20:59)

• Smith criticizes both Democratic and Republican leadership for unprecedented partisanship and for manipulating candidate selection.
  • “The informal group I am a part of… [complains] with the ways in which the leader has been identifying what candidates he wants to run in what states.” (17:17)
• Discussion of Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer’s record, and Smith’s “fight club” seeking new leadership.
• Manchin: Loss of “middle grounders” like Susan Collins threatens the institution.
• Flake notes that even leaders branded as hyper-partisan have “reached across the aisle in the past” (e.g., Gang of Eight immigration reform).

7. Political Incentives, Primary Reform & Term Limits (20:59–23:06)

• Discussion of Majority Leader John Thune’s balancing act between institutionalism and political reality—deference to pressure from President Trump and fear of primaries.
• Manchin calls for term limits and open/“ranked choice” primaries to break the dominance of extreme partisans and the President’s grip over candidates:
  • “If we had term limits, maybe we'd get one good courageous term out of you.” (21:27)
• Flake: “If you had five or six states with open primary laws like Alaska has, that would create a whole different power structure in the Senate.” (22:43)

8. The Senate’s Inability to Deliver for Voters (25:39–27:35)

• Lulu challenges the idea of bipartisanship by raising concerns about Senate incrementalism and lack of major reforms for voters:
• Smith: “Americans… think that things are terribly on the wrong track… the status quo is not working for them… paid family and medical leave, childcare that people can afford, minimum wage… a majority of Americans want to see a complete revamping of our healthcare system.” (26:16)
• Smith suggests polarization on “moderate/progressive” lines obscures a deeper division: preservation vs. change.
• Flake defends incrementalism as a conservative virtue but concedes the Senate needs bipartisan efforts.

9. Partisanship, Accountability, and Policy Stalemates (28:24–36:49)

• Manchin decries the new “guilt by conversation” culture—bipartisanship itself is subject to attack. (28:24)
• Debate over whether requiring supermajority votes creates obstruction or necessary consensus.
• Smith: Filibuster and Senate rules often “mask accountability because you can advocate for something, but you never actually get it done.”
• Extended exchange on Obamacare: Flake calls it a case of overreach; Smith notes its current popularity but concedes it didn’t address healthcare costs.

10. Senate Powerlessness in Foreign Affairs & Tariffs (37:15–40:45)

• Discussion shifts to tariffs, foreign policy, and the U.S. response in Venezuela, with recent military actions going without debate or oversight.
  • Flake: “There are sufficient votes in the House too, but they just haven't because they're afraid of what the president can do to them.” (38:03)
• Manchin: “The Senate can fix it. The Senate can right the ship… if it does its job.” (39:09)

11. Final Reflections: Do They Miss the Senate? (39:37–40:31)

• Manchin: “Not at all.” He feels he may be more effective influencing from the outside now. (39:38)
• Flake: “I miss some things. I miss the people… but I knew that in order to win re-election, I would have to change who I was and say things that I didn't believe.” (40:01)
• Flake’s “unvarnished truth”: Most senators “don’t agree with the policies they’re pursuing… The political incentives are not aligned with them to speak truth to power here.” (40:19)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Let us recognize as authoritarianism reasserts itself in country after country, that we are by no means immune.” — Jeff Flake (01:27, reflecting on his 2019 speech)
• “I was not elected to take a side. I was elected to represent all sides.” — Joe Manchin (01:45)
• “I actually don't think that's the right continuum at all. I think it's a question of whether you actually think that the status quo is pretty much working, whether you think that it needs to be fundamentally changed.” — Tina Smith (23:12)
• “The cost, the price for that was too steep to pay.” — Jeff Flake (09:20)
• “If we had term limits, maybe we'd get one good courageous term out of you. Maybe you'd be willing to do the right thing, at least one good term.” — Joe Manchin (21:27)
• “You can have a strong response on drugs, but you can have that with some kind of humanity as well, and this wasn’t it.” — Jeff Flake on Venezuela (38:03)

Key Timestamps

• 02:50 — Single-word assessment of today’s Senate
• 04:42 — Flake on Congressional abdication and authoritarianism
• 05:53 — Manchin’s critique of Democrats losing working-class voters
• 07:31 — Smith on family reasons and toxicity in modern politics
• 11:14 — Manchin and Flake discuss House-to-Senate shift and partisanship
• 13:43 — Flake on presidential power amassing
• 15:48 — Filibuster reform debate
• 17:17 — Democratic “fight club” and leadership critique
• 21:27 — Manchin’s story on term limits
• 26:16 — Smith: “Status quo” vs. “needs fundamental change”
• 28:24 — Manchin: From “guilt by association” to “guilt by conversation”
• 38:03 — Jeff Flake: “Frustrating” lack of oversight on military action
• 39:37 — Would they return to the Senate? (No.)

Conclusion

All three senators agree on the acute dysfunction afflicting the Senate: rising presidential power with little resistance, party leaders prioritizing political survival, rules that mask real accountability, and a breakdown of genuine bipartisan compromise. While each hopes for restoration, they admit that current political incentives—especially primary challenges fueled by party bases—keep the Senate from fulfilling its constitutional purpose. Despite their differences on policy, all believe profound change is required, whether through process reforms (such as open primaries/term limits) or cultural renewal.

For listeners seeking an honest, behind-the-scenes account of why the Senate is failing as a check on power, this episode is both sobering and deeply insightful.