Podcast Summary:

The Interview: Chloé Zhao Is Yearning to Know How to Love
The Daily – The New York Times | Host: David Marchese | January 24, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of "The Interview" features acclaimed filmmaker Chloé Zhao in conversation with David Marchese. Together, they dive deep into Zhao's creative process, her recent film Hamnet (an adaptation of Maggie O’Farrell’s novel), grappling with grief, the paradoxes of artistic life, her inner struggles, and her evolving understanding of life, death, and love. The conversation is philosophical, candid, and immersed in the mysteries of human connection—themes that define both Zhao's films and her own journey.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Awards, Ego, and the Artist’s Vulnerability

• Awards Season & Recognition ([02:06]–[05:06])

  • Zhao admits ambivalence about awards culture.
  • She approaches events as chances to foster community rather than competition.
  • Quote:

    "Filmmaking is quite a lonely process. As a director, you're like a ronin... you create this family and then you have to leave again." — Chloé Zhao ([04:11])

  • Awards season lets her reconnect with other filmmakers, which she values.

• Dealing with Artistic Judgement ([03:10]–[04:10])

  • Zhao notes the deep emotional ties artists feel to their work due to formative life struggles.
  • Being judged can feel like a personal rejection, triggering feelings of exile from belonging or love.

2. Directing Style: Between Chaos and Control

• Embracing Chaos on Set ([05:12]–[06:42])

  • Describes her on-set approach as highly intuitive, allowing for serendipity and collective emotional truth to emerge.
  • Quote:

    "When that happens, I can feel it. And...go, there's no way any of us could have thought of that, because that is truth happening in the moment." — Chloé Zhao ([06:24])

• Leadership Styles: General vs. Priestess ([07:00]–[08:57])

  • Contrasts "macho" director archetypes with her preference for balancing strength (the general) and receptivity (the priestess).
  • Explains the need for both surrender and control in creative leadership.

3. Grief, Loss, and Human Impermanence

• Portraying Grief in Hamnet ([08:57]–[11:41])

  • Considers the universality and biology of grief, even across centuries.
  • Cultural practices around death have changed, not the pain itself, but suffering now is compounded by modern shame and lack of ritual.

• Training as a Death Doula ([09:53], [11:46]–[12:54])

  • Zhao took foundational training to help face her own deep fear of death.
  • Quote:

    "Because I've been so afraid, I haven't been able to live fully. I haven't been able to love with my heart open because I'm so scared of losing love, which is a form of death." — Chloé Zhao ([11:57])

• Facing Mortality & Midlife ([12:54]–[13:33])

  • Describes her recent "midlife crisis" as a necessary, painful transformation—the prelude to rebirth.

4. On Belonging, Family, and the Fear of Abandonment

• Origins of Fear & Belonging ([16:36]–[18:00])

  • Discusses the primal pain of abandonment and the lasting effects of familial separation.
  • When probed about her own family and moving from China, she notes the origins are complex and not easy to locate.

• Art, Validation, and the Need for Home ([18:27]–[20:14])

  • Links the drive for artistic and professional validation to underlying insecurity and longing for acceptance.
  • Explores spiritual approaches (e.g., plant medicine) as ways some seek this sense of ultimate belonging and oneness.

5. Mystery, Enchantment, and Modern Disenchantment

• Enchantment & the Roots of Creativity ([23:19]–[26:51])
  • Responds to Max Weber’s idea of a disenchanted modern world.
  • Argues everyone deserves access to the mystery and awe that light up art and life—not just the privileged or those with power.
  • Quote:

    "You shouldn't have to pay money to feel you're connected to some kind of bigger thing... Actually, you yourself waking up in the morning has those tools..." — Chloé Zhao ([25:36])

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Artistic Leadership:

  "Some filmmakers have a bit more priestess energy in them than general, but both can lead and both are needed." — Chloé Zhao ([07:34])

• On Midlife Crisis:

  "Midlife crisis is the best thing that can happen to you...You can't run from this feeling. Your body is changing and you can feel death." — Chloé Zhao ([12:19])

• On Death & Living:

  "If that decision led to me being completely on my own in the moment of death, I know that won't make a difference...I want to live." — Chloé Zhao ([44:16])

• On Art and Self-Discovery:

  "It's not trying to teach us something we don't know. It's trying to help us remember who we are, to bring us back to the source." — Chloé Zhao ([33:19])

• On ‘Compost’ as a Metaphor for Struggle:

  "I don't call it shit. I call it like the compost. It's the same thing...Plenty people are trying to figure this shit out... I want to learn how to do it so I make good life decisions for myself." — Chloé Zhao ([48:26])

Humor & Lightness

• Joking About Control & Sims Addiction:

  "I was so obsessed with Sims. Playing Sims. So that I could control these virtue characters...I would just control everything with such extreme to regulate myself." — Chloé Zhao ([41:42])

• Playful Speculation on Shakespeare’s Mushrooms:

  "Or maybe there were mushrooms growing in… I mean, some of [Shakespeare's plays] you think he must be on something. I didn't say that, by the way." — Chloé Zhao ([22:55])

Important Segment Timestamps

• Awards Season & Artist's Psychology – [02:06]–[05:06]
• Directing Style: Chaos & Order – [05:12]–[08:57]
• Grief, Death, and Doula Training – [09:38]–[13:33]
• Midlife Crisis & Transformation – [14:48]–[15:32]
• Belonging, Fear, and Family – [16:33]–[18:00], [18:27]–[20:14]
• Enchantment & Rationality in the Modern World – [23:19]–[26:51]
• Dropping In: The Ball of Energy Exercise – [29:41]–[30:41]
• Formative Films & Artistic Lineage – [31:17]–[38:39]
• Vulnerability, Love, and Emotional Paradox – [38:39]–[41:30]
• Sims & Control as Coping Mechanism – [41:42]–[42:55]
• Death Doula Training & Reflections – [43:03]–[45:06]
• Professional Success vs. Satisfaction – [46:53]–[48:21]
• The “Compost” of Life – [48:26]–[49:14]

Additional Noteworthy Anecdotes

• Her deep connection to Terrence Malick:
  Zhao shares a story about receiving a phone call from Malick ([36:44])—a personal and artistic moment of connection, reinforcing her feeling of belonging to a creative lineage.

• Experiencing Difficult Loss:
  Both Zhao and Marchese share their experiences of being present at a loved one’s death, offering quietly profound reflections on solitude, death, and life’s meaning.

Conclusion

Chloé Zhao’s conversation with David Marchese is a luminous exchange about filmmaking, inner life, and human vulnerability. Zhao emerges as both rigorously introspective and open to life's mysteries—never prescriptive, always questing. For anyone seeking insight into the artist’s journey, the creative process, overcoming existential fear, or simply yearning to know "how to love," this episode is essential, soul-searching listening.