'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.

Summary

Podcast Summary: 'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Daily
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Description: The Daily delivers the biggest stories of our time, told by the best journalists in the world. Hosted by Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise, it offers twenty minutes of news each day, five days a week.
• Episode: 'The Interview': Jonathan Roumie Plays Jesus to Millions. It Can Get Intense.
• Release Date: December 21, 2024

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1. Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Daily, host David Marchese engages in an in-depth conversation with Jonathan Roumie, the actor renowned for his portrayal of Jesus Christ in the widely acclaimed series "The Chosen." Roumie's unique approach to embodying Jesus has not only garnered massive viewership but has also transformed his personal and public life in unexpected ways.

2. Jonathan Roumie and "The Chosen"

Jonathan Roumie has been at the forefront of revolutionizing biblical storytelling through "The Chosen," a series that reimagines the life of Jesus with high production values and nuanced character development. Since its inception in 2017, the show has captivated over 250 million viewers worldwide and is set to launch its fifth season under the guidance of creator Dallas Jenkins. Roumie’s warm and relatable portrayal has been pivotal in the show's success, blending sharp dialogue, interpersonal drama, and unexpected humor to breathe new life into the gospel narratives.

[02:54] Jonathan Roumie: "Nobody's ever explored that humanity. Nobody's ever wondered, well, what would it be like to crack a joke with Jesus, to have a glass of wine with Jesus, to see him dancing at a wedding?"

3. A Distinct Portrayal of Jesus

Roumie’s depiction of Jesus diverges significantly from traditional portrayals by actors like Jim Caviezel and Max von Sydow. Instead of an austere and solemn figure, Roumie presents a Jesus who is deeply human, showcasing his quirks, emotions, and everyday interactions.

[03:09] Jonathan Roumie: "If he doesn't feel human, most people won't relate to him."

The serial format of "The Chosen" allows for the gradual development of Jesus's character, presenting him not just as a divine figure but as someone who experiences a full spectrum of human emotions and relationships. This approach aims to foster a deeper connection between the audience and the character.

4. Impact on Roumie's Life and Faith

Playing Jesus has elevated Roumie from a struggling actor to a global faith leader. His authentic portrayal has resonated deeply with audiences, leading to invitations to speak at various faith-based events and partnerships with spiritual apps like Hallow.

[05:18] Jonathan Roumie: "An uncompromising surrendering to a higher power. Things that are beyond my control."

Roumie attributes his breakthrough role to a profound personal experience of surrendering his ambitions and trusting in a greater plan. This spiritual journey has been integral to his success, both professionally and personally.

5. Navigating Fame and Public Expectations

With fame comes immense responsibility and emotional strain. Roumie often finds himself in situations where fans equate him directly with Jesus, seeking spiritual guidance and miracles, which can be overwhelming.

[09:45] Jonathan Roumie: "None of this is about me. I don't matter in the grand scheme of things."

Despite recognizing the weight of his role, Roumie remains grounded by focusing on his faith and the mission of "The Chosen." He refuses to let personal ego overshadow his purpose, emphasizing that his identity extends beyond the character he portrays.

6. Engaging with Fans and Public Speaking

Roumie's interactions with fans at large-scale events, such as conferences and rallies, highlight the intense emotional connections audiences feel toward his portrayal. While rewarding, these encounters can also be emotionally taxing.

[14:03] Jonathan Roumie: "I just burst into tears because I thought to myself, man, on some level, I must have let them down."

These experiences underscore the psychological challenges Roumie faces, balancing his role as an actor with his real-life faith and personal boundaries.

7. The Secularization of Christmas

Discussing the broader cultural landscape, Roumie expresses concern over the secularization of Christmas, noting the absence of religious narratives in mainstream media.

[34:26] Jonathan Roumie: "There's no trace of Jesus in it at all."

He advocates for retaining the spiritual essence of Christmas, emphasizing that true joy stems from the celebration of Christ's birth and the hope it represents, rather than the commercialized and secular festivities dominating the season.

8. The Concept of Surrender and Personal Faith Journey

Central to Roumie's narrative is the idea of surrendering to a higher power. He describes a pivotal moment of relinquishing control over his destiny, which he believes led to his casting in "The Chosen."

[38:00] Jonathan Roumie: "I say, I want whatever you want from me because you know better than I do what's good for me."

This act of faith not only transformed his career but also reinforced his belief in divine purpose, shaping how he approaches both his personal life and professional endeavors.

9. Balancing Mission and Career

Roumie views his role in "The Chosen" as a mission rather than merely an acting job. He strives to create meaningful content that transcends entertainment, aiming to inspire and educate viewers regardless of their religious backgrounds.

[29:11] Jonathan Roumie: "If the vehicle of this story is anything less than top quality, if it's not a great TV show first, then anything else that any of us might want to have people take away from the show, from a personal perspective or a faith perspective, none of that's going to matter."

By prioritizing high-quality storytelling, Roumie ensures that the show's spiritual messages are effectively communicated without compromising on entertainment value.

10. Conclusion

Jonathan Roumie's portrayal of Jesus in "The Chosen" has had a profound impact on both his life and his audience. Through a nuanced and humanized depiction, Roumie has not only revitalized interest in biblical narratives but has also navigated the complexities of fame and faith with grace and humility. His journey underscores the powerful intersection of art and spirituality, offering a fresh perspective on one of the most iconic figures in history.

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Notable Quotes:

• [03:09] Jonathan Roumie: "If he doesn't feel human, most people won't relate to him."
• [05:18] Jonathan Roumie: "An uncompromising surrendering to a higher power. Things that are beyond my control."
• [09:45] Jonathan Roumie: "None of this is about me. I don't matter in the grand scheme of things."
• [14:03] Jonathan Roumie: "I just burst into tears because I thought to myself, man, on some level, I must have let them down."
• [34:26] Jonathan Roumie: "There's no trace of Jesus in it at all."
• [38:00] Jonathan Roumie: "I say, I want whatever you want from me because you know better than I do what's good for me."
• [29:11] Jonathan Roumie: "If the vehicle of this story is anything less than top quality... none of that's going to matter."

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the interview, highlighting Jonathan Roumie's unique portrayal of Jesus, the personal and professional ramifications of his role, and his perspectives on faith and contemporary culture. The inclusion of notable quotes with timestamps provides direct insights into the conversation, offering readers a comprehensive understanding of the episode's key themes.

Transcript

[Planned Parenthood Representative]

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[David Marchese]

From the new York Times this is the interview. I'm David Marchese. It's common, maybe even natural, for audiences to blur the lines between actors and their famous roles, to assume that a beloved on screen doctor might know something about medicine or that an action hero is a tough guy off screen too. But Jonathan Roumie is dealing with an unusually charged version of this dynamic in his role as Jesus Christ. And yes, this is our version of Christmas season programming. Since 2017, Rumi has been the star of the global hit series the Chosen. The series takes a prestige TV approach to the story of Jesus, full of sharp dialogue, interpersonal drama, unexpected humor and high production values. That slickly appealing modern style centered on Rumi's warm and relatable portrayal has helped the show to become a massive success. It's been watched by more than 250 million people and will return for its fifth season under creator Dallas Jenkins next year. That success has also helped turn Rumi, a devout Catholic, into a kind of public faith leader. At public events for the Chosen, he's swamped by fans looking to, as it were, touch the hem of his garment. He gets asked to speak at faith based events and in the online world, he has a partnership with the prayer app Hallow, where listeners can hear him read scripture and lead meditative reflections. As Rumi is well aware, his is a complicated and just plain unlikely situation for an actor to be in. But it's also, he believes, part of a greater plan. And for me, as someone who is sincerely curious about faith and even if I'm being honest, a little envious of those who have it, his belief is something I wanted to understand. Here's my conversation with Jonathan Roumie. So you've been playing Jesus on the Chosen for five seasons now. What sort of conversations did you and Dallas have about the kind of Jesus that you wanted to show because your Jesus? It's a very different portrayal than Jim Caviezel's Jesus in the Passion of the Christ, or Willem Dafoe's in the Last Temptation of Christ, or you know what else is a good one, but also very different than yours is. Max von Sydow oh, yeah, you know, the greatest story of all time.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Very austere.

[David Marchese]

But all those Jesuses or Jesi. I don't know what they're would. There's a solemnity to them. And your Jesus is a much more, in some ways, contemporary feeling. Jesus.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think what makes it feel like that, that we have, that all of those other portrayals didn't have access to, was the format of Time to build characters and build relationships. Over episodes, you're seeing the nuances of his character, his quirks, the humanity of these characters, the day to day of these characters. And so if you believe they existed, and I do, they were human beings. So, theology aside, nobody's ever explored that humanity. Nobody's ever wondered, well, what would it be like to crack a joke with Jesus, to have a glass of wine with Jesus, to see him dancing at a wedding? Because if you're human, laughing and joking and frustration and the entire spectrum of emotions are part of the human process, part of the human journey, part of the struggle he went through. All of these things that we do so that we would have somebody to relate to as we're going through these trials ourself.

[David Marchese]

Did you have any apprehension about showing a version of Jesus that isn't one that's typically shown?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I didn't, because I think he has to feel human. If he doesn't feel human, most people won't relate to him. I mean, granted, there might be scenarios from time to time where, and I've shared this with Dallas, where he and I may not have exactly alignment on, like. Well, I feel like if he says it like this, it's just a little too casual, you know? And he then may come back to me and say, yeah, but here's why. And then he goes through it. I'm like, okay, I get that.

[David Marchese]

I'm just. In my head, I was thinking of the sort of cliche of an actor saying, oh, what's my motivation? In your case, the answer always gotta bring about the salvation of the world. Play it like that.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Saving souls. I gotta save more souls.

[David Marchese]

And so the decision was made that you were gonna do the Chosen before that. You know, maybe scuffling is too strong of a word, but you were just.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Sort of a jobbing actor, struggle busing.

[David Marchese]

Struggle busing. How does it happen that a struggle busing actor makes it big playing Jesus?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think that the path to that is absolute. An uncompromising surrendering to a higher power. Things that are beyond my control. Because that's what it took, I believe, for me to get to the place where I was ready for an opportunity like this. I had moved to la and then I struggled for eight years in Los Angeles only to realize that I was trying so hard to control my life, to control my destiny, to do the things that I thought needed to be done, to have a successful career as an actor. And they weren't working. I was on government assistance that ran out. I woke up completely broke one morning six and a half years ago, and I was literally. It was just. I didn't see any way out that I could figure out how to make work. And so I literally said, God, you take this from me. It's in your hands now. It's not up to me and I'm not going to worry about it. And I was relieved because I really felt now it wasn't my choice. And then three months later, the chosen comes along and I thought, okay, I just needed to submit.

[David Marchese]

I know that you're a practicing Catholic.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Marchese]

What does your faith allow you to give to the role that a non believer or a non Catholic might not be able to give?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I feel that it lends an authenticity to the role that allows me to understand more of why Jesus did the things he did and said the things he did than somebody who is completely unfamiliar. And I think I struggle to follow Jesus like anybody else who considers themselves a Christian, but the struggle is part of it. And I think God knows what we struggle with, but we're still challenged to do what he would do in those situations. And I think because I actually believe that, that seems to have lent me a kind of credibility and an authenticity in approaching the character that maybe people haven't seen.

[David Marchese]

You know, it's interesting because you're saying that who you are allows you to play the role of Jesus with a particular authenticity. Do you feel that someone who is a non believer could credibly and authentically play that part?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think they could. I think if they had. If they had a real understanding of what he represented and why he was so much of a revolutionary to his time. And even today I think they could, but they would have to. I mean, in layman's terms, you'd have to do your research and drop into the character and, you know, go Daniel Day Lewis on it and for three months, you know, go live as a rabbi in a kibbutz or something like that. I don't know. But I think with a character like Jesus, I think a lot of people do sort of reduce him to a really great teacher, really cool guy, you know, shared a Lot. He becomes a sand old hippie. In a lot of, you know, people's minds, they're like, oh, you know, he said some cool stuff and he did some cool things. And it's like, I think he was a little more than that.

[David Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. He came to be a sword.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[David Marchese]

When I watch videos of you giving talks for, you come out, and very often it seems a wave of applause, like really an overwhelming response. And the idea that you're getting that sort of attention, combined with the fact that you're getting it for playing Jesus, strikes me as a potentially psychologically and spiritually combustible situation. Does it feel that way to you?

[Jonathan Roumie]

No, because I recognize that none of this is about me. I don't matter in the grand scheme of things. And so I recognize that when I come out to those speeches and people react the way they do and people yell out Jesus, you know, that they're seeing me as the face of the guy that they've had this response to, this reaction to while experiencing the show. And I'm the closest thing to the real Jesus that they probably will ever see in person. And so I think psychologically, they know I'm not Jesus, but they feel they want me to be the next best thing. I. Of course, I cannot go anywhere near that reality.

[David Marchese]

I.

[Jonathan Roumie]

But that said, if I believe everything I believe about my faith, I'm in this position for a reason. I was cast as Jesus and somebody else wasn't. Why? God only knows why.

[David Marchese]

You're saying essentially that you become a human icon for people. The thing that I don't quite understand is how you separate the idea that, as you said, sort of, you're nothing here. You don't matter.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Dust in the wind.

[David Marchese]

But then also feeling like you've been put here for a reason, you're saying there is something special about you. Those seem to me like somewhat contradictory ideas. How do you reconcile them? And then also there was never some small part of you that's like, oh, I am special. None of that little sort of ego gratification, temptation ever creeps into your head.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think if I said there wasn't anything at all, I'd be lying. Do I allow it to become my reason for doing what I do? No. So the paradox that you're describing, I guess it is kind of hard to make that distinction. Yes, there's for me, a sense of mission. But the mission is about Jesus. In this case with the chosen, it's about God. That's what this experience is in playing this role. When I meet fans who come out and I was just in the Philippines and it was nuts, man. Like, I've never seen anything like it. They were tremendous. They're just so intense. And everywhere I go they're like giving me stuff and little articles and notes and things like that. So I'm playing this character that people, for the most part, they already love him, they have a relationship with him. And then I come in and I sort of fulfill their idea of who that person is to them in their life. And I'm also one of them in that I have a relationship. And a lot of them know that, and a lot of fans know how I feel about Jesus and God and faith and all of those things. And so I think all of that combined, I think it's the reason for my career.

[David Marchese]

So, you know, you go to these events and like you described, thousands of people are cheering, they're coming up to you. And you also are asked to come and speak at things like the National Eucharistic Congress or you gave a commencement address at Catholic University of America. You spoke at the March for Life in Washington last year. These sort of demands on your time and on your being. Do you feel like you're being asked to give more than you have to give?

[Jonathan Roumie]

It can be draining. If I'm meeting you at one of these events and something has moved you to want to come and have this individual moment that oftentimes happens at some of these things where they'll have VIP groups that there are certain people that get to have some one on one time, but there's 700 of them. That takes time and it takes energy, and a lot of the times it's emotionally charged and, you know, better or worse. That catches up with you after 700 encounters.

[David Marchese]

Was there a particularly difficult encounter that comes to mind?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I was at a. I was at a conference in a stadium of about 40,000 people, and I came off the stage and shortly thereafter I got to the little green room where they had us hanging out. And security comes into the room and says, hey, there's a lady outside who's got a child in a wheelchair. Is it okay? She wants to know if she can say hello. And I came outside and I met the lady and her son, and she was already overwhelmed. And she then went on to tell me, she said, you know, our favorite episode is the episode where Tamar, one of the characters, lets her friend down on a stretcher in through the roof of Zebedee's house, and Jesus heals him and he can walk again. And she says, so I just thought, wouldn't it be great if the same thing happened to my son? And I. And I said, yeah, that would be amazing. But I gotta be honest with you. As far as I know, I don't have that gift, but I would love to pray with you, if that's okay. So I just stood with them and I prayed with them for a minute, and they were so gracious and thanked me, and I walked away. And then I just burst into tears because I thought to myself, man, on some level, I must have let them down. But they know what I do. They know I'm not a healer. I'm not a preacher. So once I got through that line of thought, I recognized. I said, okay, I can't be what she maybe wanted me to be. I can only be who I've been made to be.

[David Marchese]

There's a way in which experiences like that call to mind for me, a kind of. You could almost call it like a category error about the position that you find yourself in where you're an actor. And because you play this role, you are put into positions that probably an actor shouldn't be put into, you know? And it seems like increasingly you are becoming a figure of authority when you're asked by people to come talk to groups of Catholics. What do you think they want from you in that setting? And is there a part of you that thinks this is messed up? I'm an actor. Why ask me? Ask a theologian. Ask a priest.

[Jonathan Roumie]

That's a great question. I mean, I think first and foremost, the category era thing is kind of funny because I think all of us are not the sum total of what we do. You know, I think you, by what you do as an interviewer and the questions that you ask people and the things that you bring out of people, shed light on humanity in ways that other people wouldn't know how to do. And so in many ways, you have a gift for humanity that you might not even be considering in that light. You know what I mean?

[David Marchese]

I 100% agree with everything you just said.

[Jonathan Roumie]

No, but it's true. No, but it's absolutely true. Because we're not just. I don't think we're just meant to be here to just eke out a living and get a job and maybe have a family, make some money and then die. Like, we have a conversation and some sort of fruit comes out of that for somebody else hearing this interview, and all of a sudden, the trajectory that they were on all of a sudden changes. They learned something or they had misconceptions about Christians or Catholics or non Christians that they didn't before and now they have a better dialogue. It's like that's part of, I think, what we're all here to do. I don't give my political opinions out publicly.

[David Marchese]

That's, well, not quite true. I mean, talking at the March for Life.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Well, here's what I'll say about that.

[David Marchese]

Which I should explain is a pro life also call it anti abortion rally. That happens every year in Washington.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, it's a pro life rally. It's for me. And I was on the fence about speaking there because I recognize that for so many people it is only political. For me, it is only spiritual.

[David Marchese]

Tease that out for me.

[Jonathan Roumie]

So if I come to a conference like the March for Life and they want me to share thoughts, well, I'm thinking like, well, what do I believe as a Catholic? I believe in the sanctity of life from the moment of conception. That's what we believe as Catholics and Christians. And so for me, it's a spiritual thing that has been usurped and turned into a political weapon that divides people in such a way where they no longer see the spirituality of the issue. It becomes completely about right or left, conservative or liberal. I don't understand it. So for me, that wasn't politics, that was spirituality. You can't cherry pick the aspects of your faith you like and dispense the things you don't like. You said it yourself, I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword. You know, fathers will divide themselves against their sons, mothers and daughters, like because of things like this, these kinds of issues that I think for Jesus, it's like, if you're going to follow me, it's not going to be easy. It's going to be really hard and people will hate you. Get used to it.

[David Marchese]

Why is abortion the issue where you chose to make your voice public and not other things that are central to Jesus's teachings, like in treatment of the poor, for example?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I mean, I do do that. In fact, I was just in Tanzania and Rwanda visiting these children that I support and their families, which I had been doing even before the chosen. A year before the chosen, I found this charity called Unbound. And I saw the work that they were doing and they were changing not just the children's lives through sponsorship, but entire families. So I'm doing as much as I can. And I weigh every opportunity that comes to me to speak on these things very carefully. And I also, I also know that there's Only so much that I can give of myself. Do you know what I mean? It's a lot. It's a lot for me physically and emotionally. It can get really, really taxing at times. And so I'm trying to do things like just take better care of myself and try to go on more vacations and. But it's hard to find time these days. But, you know, sleep when you're in the ground. Right.

[David Marchese]

I realize you just made a comment about trying to find relaxation as peace of mind, but I have another question about the march for life.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Well, let's see how this goes.

[David Marchese]

There's one moment in the speech you gave there where you sort of pivot and say that, you know, you know about the world of entertainment. And I'm paraphrasing all of this, so if I'm misremembering just correctly, I'll help you.

[Jonathan Roumie]

It's super dark.

[David Marchese]

Y. You're sort of diagnosing the cultural landscape, and you say, you know, there's just sort of an increase in, you know, occult imagery, depictions of witchcraft. And you say some of this is even subliminal, and you know it when you see it. And I don't know exactly what you mean. Can you give me examples of the kind of stuff you're talking about?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think we've reached the point now in culture where seeing depictions and images and symbolism of Satan and Satanism and demons and witchcraft and the symbols that's related to all of the occult are so frequent and regular that it's so easy to become desensitized. I think your mind just filters it. Like, oh, I've seen that so many times now, it doesn't even register. And if you go back a couple of decades ago, you would never see anything like that. And I've seen it more, I think, in the music industry, demonic imagery in music videos and immodesty and all of these things that the youngest of our society are subjected to and shouldn't be. I don't believe. You know, like, I think for me, remembering that speech, my heart was for the kids that see certain things, like on music videos, and then they reenact them themselves or they wear what they're seeing because it's what's popular and fashionable. And they don't have any idea that some of the imagery or the symbols or the words that are being used are, from a spiritual standpoint, really, really damaging and really dangerous on a level that we've never seen before.

[David Marchese]

You know, it's funny because I said, you know, I Don't see it. And of course, you know, it's like, I enjoy the music of Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. You know what I mean?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I'm a huge Iron Maiden fan. Iron Maiden, number of the Beast. I'm like, well, you know, I can't really wear that T shirt so much anymore.

[David Marchese]

But to me, it's, you know, that kind of imagery, it feels benign to me. Like, it's on the same level as, like, science fiction movies or horror films. You know, it's like, this is entertainment. So my question for you is.

[Jonathan Roumie]

But you're also referencing like that, like black, like rock. And the imagery from those bands in that time are different than some of the more modern. I like, if certain. I think it's much more graphic and sexualized. Like, sexuality is so much more prevalent in the media, like with. Especially in music, like, the display of sexuality and the dark images connected to sexuality are so much more blatant than they ever were 30, 40 years ago.

[David Marchese]

But do you think the kind of iconography you're talking about is the natural outcome of corroded culture, or do you think it's the intentional result of darker forces?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I mean, I think it could be a combination of a number of things. I think it could be how society at large has framed faith and religion and banished it from visible culture. You know, from areas in the culture where you used to see more people, I think, framing their faith within the context of what they do, or like even presidents. And people would invoke, just in their speech, would invoke God in the way that they don't do that anymore. And I think, well, it doesn't seem.

[David Marchese]

Like there's a shortage of politicians talking.

[Jonathan Roumie]

About politics, but not without a negative connotation to it. Put it this way, I'll speak for myself. I had a conversation several years ago about the discussion of faith in the workplace. There were a non actor, it was a sort of a production member. And I know we shared a similar faith and we hadn't really talked about it, but there was a spark of a conversation that made me think, oh, let me ask them about this. And they went on to carefully admonish me, like, hey, you know, just be careful. You really shouldn't talk about these kinds of things because a lot of people are biased against, you know, Christians in this industry. So you might want to just kind of keep a lid on that. And I thought, but we're. It's just us talking. Do you know what I mean? And I think what I recognized is that there was Such a deep fear of being found out, that they had a sense of faith, that it was just. It was not okay to possess that. And for me, that's not okay. It's not okay to be told I can't practice my faith or express it, Especially if I'm not. I'm not going around saying, here's the Bible, do me a favor, just read that. I'm not asking anybody to convert. I'm not. I've never once said, do me a favor, you should convert. I just live out my mission here. I be who I am. And if people want to ask me questions or invite me to come talk to 200,000 people and share my thoughts about certain things, I'll pray on it first. Like with the march, I didn't even the weeks leading right up to it, I didn't want to do it. I thought, this can't be good for an actor. But then I got to this moment that I had when I first completely surrendered everything to God before I booked the Chosen. And it was the same feeling of, you know what? I'm asking you to do this and not worry about it. And it was like this wave of peace just kind of swept over me. And they said, just speak from the heart.

[David Marchese]

If you think about the work you're doing in terms of mission, how much of that mission feels to you, evangelical in nature? Like if somebody watches the show and is merely entertained and nothing more, do you feel that something has been left on the table?

[Jonathan Roumie]

No, no. I think. I think one of the reasons that we're successful and it's one of the priorities for both Dallas and myself, and I think everybody involved, is that we recognize first and foremost this is a TV show. It's based on scriptures, based on the Gospels. But there's stuff that we've had to take creative license in certain situations to be able to tell a more well rounded story. But if the vehicle of this story is anything less than top quality, if it's not a great TV show first, then anything else that any of us might want to have people take away from the show, from a personal perspective or a faith perspective, none of that's going to matter. You know what I mean? Like, if you take a piece of gold and you wad it up in a ball of trash and you throw it on the sidewalk and say, you should pick that up. Like, no, get lost. You know, nobody's gonna want to even touch it. They'll just walk by it. So it's the same thing. Like if the message behind the show is a little piece of gold wrapped up in a wad of garbage, then forget it, you're done. Next. Move on. So, yeah, it still has to be a great TV show first and then everything else from that can flow.

[David Marchese]

You know, actors who have been on successful TV shows, I think it's not uncommon for them to have been typecast because of the familiarity that people had with the characters that they played. Sure. And that's not even taking into account playing Jesus. Do you have any concern about the industry typecasting you in that role?

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Marchese]

Are you getting any clues out there in the the world about that or.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, no, I'm not. And it's really true, David. Like, whatever happens, man, whatever's meant for me will be mine. Do you know what I mean? If I did nothing else for the rest of my life as an actor on camera, but Jesus and the chosen and that's all people remembered me for. Well, the fact that they remember me at all, that's amazing. Like, I'm good because the show is just a vehicle for this point of human contact and this encounter that we're all meant to have with each other and with the divine beyond us.

[David Marchese]

After the break, I called Jonathan me back and he tells me why he thinks the chosen should make Hollywood less wary of religion.

[Jonathan Roumie]

To get to the point now where globally it's one of the most watched TV shows in the entire world and 30% of that audience is non religious, I think that's pretty significant. And so I don't really know why Hollywood would be afraid of that.

[Planned Parenthood Representative]

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[David Marchese]

This is definitely a blue Collar community. And I'm kind of a blue collar guy. Rick Sealscott didn't see himself as a farmer, but wasn't about to sell his grandparents. Ohio farm, an Avangrid wind farm, pays millions to the community and landowners like him each year. Farming's up and down, but the wind turbines give us steady income. We're holding onto the farm and we're making money. And I would absolutely do it again. Discover where energy meets humanity@oven grid.com. thank you for taking the time to do this again.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Of course, it's my pleasure.

[David Marchese]

So let me just ask a seasonally appropriate question.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Okay.

[David Marchese]

At this point in American culture, Christmas is sort of like a secular holiday. Do you have feelings about how secular Christmas has become?

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's been almost 100% secularized in terms of media and culture. I think it's, it's hard to, to sort of see it being hijacked, but it's, it's been like that for. I remember as a kid seeing these signs around churches around Christmas time. It says, keep Christ in Christmas. And especially now, any, any movie that comes out during the season that's about Christmas, there's no trace of Jesus in it at all. So it's unfortunate. But that's why guys like Dallas Jenkins are around, to kind of give people the alternatives, like, oh, yeah, this is what this is about. And then however I can contribute in my own way, like to remember that yes, Christmas is supposed to be joyful, but at the end of the day, you know, the birth of Christ is meant to ultimately lead us to the cross of Christ, to bring the world hope and salvation and everything that comes with that.

[David Marchese]

And you told this interesting anecdote about discussion with a crew member about how discussing faith at work was sort of a no go. What might account for why faith is tricky for.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I don't know why, because I think when you look at the numbers with how the Chosen has performed and how other projects like Jesus Revolution have done with audiences, there's an audience that's there. But I think maybe because for so long there has been a rash of media and content and films made under the guise of being related to faith that have just missed the mark in terms of excellence, or they read as so heavy handed in their attempts to proselytize that essentially they're made for the choir. And with the chosen, it's like, well, we really see ourselves as a historical drama. And so 30% of our audience now is non religious. Like, that's a lot and for a show that the early adopters were Christians, to get to the point now where globally it's one of the most watched TV shows in the entire world and 30% of that audience is non religious, I think that's pretty significant. And so I don't really know why Hollywood would be afraid of that.

[David Marchese]

You talked about the idea of surrendering to God. And I think that for non believers, the idea of surrender and what that actually means in practice, I think, you know, it can just sound like a well meaning cliche. I think, you know, in the way that, you know, when you hear an athlete talk about, you know, we just start taking it one game at a time and giving it 110%, you know, it's not untrue, but it's not really helping you to understand what's going on. And I wonder if you can try to explain a little bit more concretely about what it actually looked like for you to surrender and sort of let go. Because you're still a person walking around with ideas and, you know, you're trying to accomplish things and you have judgments about things. So what does it, what does it mean in practice to let go?

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think that's a great question. I think the simplest way to describe it is knowing or arriving at the position of where I recognize that my ability to control my destiny, my fate, my path, whatever you want to call it, ultimately I believe is beyond me. Yet I have to participate in the process of moving forward, of achievement, of trying to follow the direction that I believe I'm meant to go. When I came to the conclusion in that moment that we talked about, that moment of surrender, I came to the conclusion that for the previous eight years up to that point, I think that God had an idea or a plan for me. And then it's like he said, okay, this is. I've given you these gifts, I've given you these talents, do something with them. And I'm kind of like, oh, okay, let me go do something with them. And sort of leaving him out of the discernment process when it came to certain steps to take to move forward. And so I did that for years and years and years. And I think as a person of faith, you necessarily cannot keep God separate from any part of your life, especially in areas where you're struggling. And for me, it was in a moment of severe stress and anxiety and borderline fiscal destitution that I basically said, I can't do it on my own. I recognize I've been trying to do everything that I thought I was supposed to do, but it hasn't worked. And what I realized is that I've never checked in and thought whether or not this particular action was the right move or. Or that was what God might want from my life. So now it was essentially a prayer where I say, I want whatever you want from me because you know better than I do what's good for me. Whatever that is, show me what it is.

[David Marchese]

You're so firmly on your path now, but are there ways in which your faith is still being tested constantly?

[Jonathan Roumie]

God willing, I'm on the path, but that's part of the mystery of faith. God ultimately is unknowable, but give me the nitty gritty.

[David Marchese]

Where are you being tested?

[Jonathan Roumie]

You know, they asked St. Paul about that, and he. He never really quite answered directly. He had a prayer. He's like, lord, take this thorn from my side. Three times he said, I asked the Lord to take this thorn from my side. And that God said, no, I'm not going to take that from you, because my grace is sufficient. In other words, he needed Paul to have this thing, this weakness, whatever it was, so that Paul would always depend on God for everything that he got. And I feel similarly with my own sort of things. I'm not comparing myself to Paul in any aspect whatsoever. But we all deal with something, right? We're all suffering and struggling with something. I'm a woefully flawed human being, but I'm trying to do the best that I can with the gifts that I've been given. And by me, even just walking my, you know, the walk of faith publicly, it's not something that I ever intended to do. It's something that, you know, during the pandemic, I literally felt pushed to do. And I started doing it. I started praying live on my social media accounts. And I thought, what am I doing? This is career killer. Because it was like it would first of all out me, you know, as a Christian, and then in many cases, even more stringently out me as a Catholic Christian, which people find even harder to take.

[David Marchese]

So, you know, there's like a billion Catholics in the world.

[Jonathan Roumie]

There are, but, you know, I don't know that. They're all here in America and most.

[David Marchese]

Of my audience, the current president, Catholic.

[Jonathan Roumie]

But it just wasn't something I'd ever thought to do or wanted to do or felt that I should do. I'd always kept it separate. And then I just felt this, you know, this thought, this, you know, inclination, like you should do this because people are struggling really bad right now and it's going to bring peace to a lot of people. So, you know, I'm just trying to I'm just trying to go where I'm led, man.

[David Marchese]

Jonathan, thank you and happy holidays.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Thank you. My question, David God bless.

[David Marchese]

That's Jonathan Roumie. Season 5 of the Chosen comes out next year. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman, original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker and Marian Lozano, photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and our producer is Wyatt Orr. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Afim Shapiro, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Matty Masciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schuman, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com theinterview and you can email us [e-mail] Next week we're off for the holidays, but we'll share a conversation with Jeff Bezos from the New York Times Dealbook Summit, and we'll be back with more interviews in the new year. David I'm David Marchese and this is the interview from the New York Times.

[Planned Parenthood Representative]

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