The Daily – “The Interview”: Michael Pollan Says Humanity Is About to Undergo a Revolutionary Change

Podcast: The Daily (The New York Times)
Host: David Marchese
Guest: Michael Pollan
Date: February 7, 2026
Episode Theme: An exploration of the science, philosophy, and urgent questions of consciousness—with particular attention to AI, animal awareness, and the modern threats and transformations around human experience.

Episode Overview

In this episode, host David Marchese interviews acclaimed author Michael Pollan about his new book, A World: A Journey into Consciousness, which delves deeply into what consciousness is, why it matters, and how it’s being challenged by modern developments, especially artificial intelligence. The conversation traverses the hard philosophical and scientific questions about consciousness, the implications for nonhuman animals and AI, the role of feelings and embodiment, the destabilizing nature of self-inquiry, and the intersections with nutrition, politics, and even spirituality. Pollan argues we’re at a Copernican moment—a fundamental redefinition of what it means to be conscious.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining and Grappling with Consciousness

• Slipperiness of “Consciousness” (02:18–03:41)

  • Pollan defines consciousness as “subjective experience” or “awareness.”

  • Cites Thomas Nagel’s “What is it Like to Be a Bat?”: if it is like something to be a bat, then a bat is conscious; the problem is imagining the subjective interior of nonhuman minds.

    “If we can imagine it is like anything to be a bat, then a bat is conscious because that means it has some sort of subjective experience.”
    —Michael Pollan (02:38)

• The “Hard Problem” of Consciousness (03:41–06:35)

  • Based on David Chalmers: how do you get from matter (neurons) to mind (subjective experience)?

  • Most brain activity is unconscious; consciousness may exist to navigate complex social or decisional contexts.

  • Science struggles with an objective study of consciousness since all tools are consciousness-derived.

    “Consciousness is one of the subjects you cannot get outside of to get an objective view, because every tool we have to study it is itself a product of consciousness.”
    —Michael Pollan (05:55)

• Scientific Progress and Frustration (06:35–07:05)

  • There are around 22 competing scientific theories; none get over the final hurdle of explaining how consciousness arises.

    “They all started waving their hands when it came to, but how does a conscious subject arise?”
    —Michael Pollan (06:58)

• Evolutionary vs Non-Evolutionary Explanations (07:05–08:42)

  • While most explanations are evolutionary, Pollan discusses panpsychism as a “bonkers-sounding” but increasingly considered idea: consciousness is a property of all matter.

    “You have to expand your sense of the plausible when you’re looking at consciousness…”
    —Michael Pollan (08:15)

Why Does Consciousness Matter? (09:22–10:23)

• Pollan argues these abstract questions about consciousness are now vital:

  • Increasing evidence that animals—and perhaps even plants—are conscious.
  • The rise of AI, which challenges human uniqueness and demands ethical reconsideration.

  “I think we’re approaching this kind of Copernican moment of redefinition.”
  —Michael Pollan (10:06)

Expanding Moral Consideration: Animal Consciousness, Suffering, and Ethics (10:23–12:27)

• Discussion on whether expanding our awareness of animal consciousness should change our behavior.

  • Skepticism about practical moral changes, as humans often exploit each other and animals despite knowledge of consciousness.

  • The line may be drawn at the capacity to suffer.

    “It’s not as easy as you’re conscious, therefore you have all these rights, you know, personhood.”
    —Michael Pollan (12:05)

Artificial Intelligence and the Origin of Consciousness

• Skepticism of Machine Consciousness (12:27–14:35)

  • Pollan sides with researchers like Antonio Damasio: consciousness arises from feelings—a monitoring of the body by the brain—not “thought” or higher cognition. This points to embodiment as critical, which machines lack.

    “If you think feelings are at the center of consciousness, it’s very hard to imagine how a machine could rise to that level to have feelings.”
    —Michael Pollan (13:44)

• AI’s Data vs. Human Embodiment

  • AI is trained on information, lacks real-world friction and holistic human contact.

    “Some of the most important things we know are about person to person contact, about contact with nature, this friction, that really is what makes us human, I think.”
    —Michael Pollan (14:21)

• The Turing Test and the Limits of Certainty (14:45–16:45)

  • If an AI claims consciousness, how could we know? The Turing Test only demonstrates that a machine can fool us; it doesn’t prove genuine subjective experience.

  • The problem is fundamental: since consciousness is subjective, we infer it in others only from behavior and self-report.

    “We’re in a very weird place where the machines we’re living with are telling us they’re conscious. We can’t dispute it.”
    —Michael Pollan (16:45)

Religion, Spirituality, and the Self (17:24–20:35)

• Buddhism and Ego Transcendence (17:34–20:35)

  • Pollan recalls how Buddhism’s long tradition of exploring the self and tools for transcending it (meditation, psychedelic experiences) illuminate the topic.

  • Some of life’s highest experiences involve ego dissolution and a sense of oneness with things (nature, art, others).

    “Some of the highest experiences of life are these moments where we transcend the self. And that’s curious, too… The interesting thing, though, is that consciousness doesn’t go away when the ego goes away.”
    —Michael Pollan (18:28, 19:34)

Psychedelics, Meditation, and Self-Discovery (20:35–23:09)

• Psychedelic Experiences (20:35–23:09)
  • Pollan rarely uses psychedelics, and values guided experiences that sometimes yield powerful, wordless emotions. Those emotions often make sense only later, during meditation or reflection.
  • “The combination of the two experiences ended up being very productive. But on its own, the psychedelic experience raised more questions than it gave answers.” (22:49)

The Dangers and Discomforts of Self-Inquiry (23:09–25:24)

• Destabilization & Avoidance

  • Engaging deeply with questions of consciousness and self can be destabilizing and anxiety-provoking, a reason why many prefer distraction.

    “One of the reasons people are happy to be less conscious and fill their attention with distractions of all kinds and drugs of all kinds is because the mind can be a scary place to visit. Our own minds.”
    —Michael Pollan (24:22)

Part 2: Consciousness, Nutrition, Politics, and the Soul

Nutrition, Skepticism, and New Political Alliances (27:42–29:59)

• RFK Jr., the MAHA Movement, and Food Debates

  • Pollan critiques RFK Jr.’s meat-heavy dietary guidelines, emphasizing the environmental cost and lack of scientific grounding.
  • He sees possible positive alliances over battles against ultra-processed foods and pesticides, but stresses food won’t save you from everything, like infectious diseases.

  “Once you’ve given up on science as guiding you, anything goes... Eating real food is not going to protect you from the measles.”
  —Michael Pollan (28:32, 29:44)

• Skepticism and Authority (29:59–31:44)

  • Pollan, as a journalist, can probe scientists directly, but he acknowledges the public often receives overconfident, sometimes misleading scientific advice.

  • Advises skepticism of first-day stories in science reporting and looking for nuance in follow-up analysis.

    “Don’t be overwhelmed by the first day story, which applies to everything.”
    —Michael Pollan (31:31)

The Self, Soul, and Memory

• Is There a Soul? (31:50–33:30)

  • Pollan does not believe in an immortal soul but sees consciousness as a secular stand-in for the soul in today’s discourse.

  • He notes a subtle spirituality in the popular fascination with consciousness, especially as people grow older.

    “I think that consciousness has become our kind of secular substitute for the soul…”
    —Michael Pollan (32:33)

• Core Identity and Self-Continuity (33:30–35:17)

  • Pollan explores whether persistent character traits over time imply a stable self or soul.

  • He draws from metaphor and the idea that the self might be a useful construct, even if it’s an illusion—like a named river is the same entity despite ever-changing waters.

    “Even if [the self] is an illusion or a construct of consciousness, it’s real enough.”
    —Michael Pollan (34:56)

• Memory as Self-Construction (35:17–36:42)

  • Human memory is pliable; each retrieval and reinterpretation slightly alters our stories and our sense of self. Biologist Michael Levin calls this “mnemonic improvisation."

    “We are hacking our memory constantly to help construct the self that is useful to us now. And he basically says, maybe that’s what consciousness is, is someone using experience to construct a self.”
    —Michael Pollan (36:27)

Is All This Navel-Gazing Useful?

• Pollan insists that thinking about consciousness is not mere angel-on-the-pin contemplation—it’s essential for protecting our inner freedoms in a time of political and technological assault on our attention and interiority.

  “Consciousness is at stake in a lot of what’s going on... I think protecting ourselves against that, at the same time we preserve the ability to act politically, is a difficult balancing act... I think consciousness is more relevant now... than even it was 10 or 20 years ago.”
  —Michael Pollan (37:22, 38:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Panpsychism and Plausibility:
  “We've done that before. I mean, how long ago was it that we discovered electromagnetism? This crazy idea that there are all these waves passing through us... That's just as mind-blowing. Right?” (08:08)

• On AI Relationships:
  “It’s easier to have a relationship with a chatbot than another human… They just suck up to us and convince us how brilliant we are, and we fall for it.” (16:56)

• On Ego and Psychedelic Insight:
  “When your self dissolves... you feel part of nature. You feel love... I merged with this piece of music... the subject-object split went away, and I was identical to this piece of music.” (19:11)

• On the Self-Constructing Nature of Memory:
  “This is how we construct ourselves, by taking memories and changing them in some ways. And by the way, computers don’t do this... Maybe that’s what consciousness is.” (36:27)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:33 — Introduction and framing consciousness
• 02:18 — Pollan's definition of consciousness
• 03:41 — The “hard problem” discussed
• 06:35 — Are we making progress?
• 07:45 — Evolutionary arguments and panpsychism
• 09:22 — The practical importance of considering consciousness
• 10:23 — Animal and plant consciousness, moral implications
• 12:27 — Why Pollan is skeptical of conscious AI
• 14:45 — Can we know if AI is conscious?
• 17:34 — Religion, Buddhism, ego, and transcendent experiences
• 20:35 — Psychedelics, emotional insight, and memory
• 23:09 — Destabilizing nature of consciousness inquiry
• 27:42 — Nutrition, RFK Jr., science and skepticism
• 31:50 — Soul, self, and consciousness as secular spirituality
• 35:17 — Memory, self, and consciousness construction
• 37:08 — Why these questions remain relevant and urgent

Conclusion

This conversation with Michael Pollan is a deep dive into the nature—and present crisis—of consciousness. Pollan and Marchese tackle the big philosophical and practical questions, moving from the scientific mysteries of awareness, to moral concerns about animals and AI, to contemporary debates on food and politics, and finally to the existential destabilizations and everyday practices that arise from confronting the mind’s inward depths. Pollan argues for a renewed vigilance and “hygiene” around our own consciousness, recognizing its vulnerability in an age of digital distraction, political manipulation, and technological upheaval. For anyone curious about what it means to be conscious, this episode offers insight, humility, and urgency.

Michael Pollan’s new book, “A World: A Journey into Consciousness,” is out February 24, 2026.