Podcast Summary:

The Daily (‘The Interview’): Raja Shehadeh Believes Israelis and Palestinians Can Still Find Peace
Host: David Marchese, The New York Times
Guest: Raja Shehadeh — Writer, Lawyer, Human Rights Activist
Date: December 20, 2025

Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Raja Shehadeh, a prominent Palestinian writer and human rights activist, on the prospects for peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Drawing on personal history, decades of human rights work, and a stubbornly optimistic outlook, Shehadeh discusses the evolution of life under occupation, the dangers of collective narratives, the meaning of justice, and the ongoing struggle to maintain humanity and hope amid cycles of conflict and violence.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal and Family History of Displacement

• Shehadeh’s family roots in Jaffa: His parents fled Jaffa in 1948 due to escalating violence by the Irgun (02:48).
• Living in exile: Grew up in Ramallah with a sense of impermanence, viewing it as a temporary home (03:52).
• Quote:
  “I learned to look at the horizons also and think that I'm looking at Jaffa. Although I had never been to Jaffa, of course, because I was born after the Nakb, after 48. And so I had a sense of Ramallah was not the real home. It was just a temporary home. And it was an exile's consciousness.” – Raja Shehadeh (03:52)

2. The Nature of Exile and Identity

• Exile’s consciousness: The enduring feeling among many Palestinians of not truly belonging to their current place (04:36-04:49).

3. Managing Anger and Pursuing Justice

• Attitude toward anger: Shehadeh deliberately avoids being consumed by anger, focusing instead on understanding and hope (05:23).
• Quote:
  “Anger is a dead end. Anger is. It imprisons you. And I didn't want ever to be angry to the point of being immobilized.” – Raja Shehadeh (05:23)

4. Documenting Change and Challenging Mystification

• Role of a justice-driven writer:
  • Documenting both the legal and physical transformation of Palestine.
  • Countering the “mystification” of history and landscape by colonization.
  • Emphasizing the importance of accurately conveying the incremental loss and deliberate policy shifts (06:36-07:56).

5. Loss of Everyday Contact and Growing Separation

• Strangers across a wall: Younger Palestinians and Israelis rarely meet or interact due to checkpoints, walls, and settlements (08:08).
• Result: Mutual misunderstanding and distorted perceptions fuel further alienation.

6. The Danger of Collective Responsibility Narratives

• Illusions of collective blame:
  • Dangerous stereotypes generate or justify violence and collective punishment (09:00-10:26).
  • Critiques leaders for propagating these myths to serve political ends.
• Quote:
  “I think that delusion was very dangerous because it led to the genocide in Gaza, so that the Israelis became convinced that all... the Palestinians are responsible for the murders that took place in October 7th.” – Raja Shehadeh (09:33)

7. Breaking the Illusion: The Need for Education and Acknowledgement

• Teaching empathy and shared history: Advocates for an educational focus on periods of coexistence (10:29-11:05).

8. Zionism, Judaism, and Personal Experience

• Distinguishing Zionism from Judaism: Shehadeh draws a sharp line between a political project (Zionism) and Jewish religion or identity (13:46).
• Critique of modern Zionism: Argues that policies since 1948 have been aimed at making Palestinian life untenable (“negative magnet”) to promote emigration (11:47-13:17).

9. Friendships and Recognition of Suffering

• Interpersonal models for peace:
  • Enduring friendships with Jewish Israelis based on openness and mutual recognition of rights—especially the right of return (14:28-15:29).
  • Stresses that honest relationships require recognition of each other’s suffering without creating a “competition of suffering” (15:57).
• The problem of “double consciousness”: Israelis’ ability to simultaneously know and not know about Palestinian dispossession (17:42).

10. Self-Destructive Policies & Prospects for Israeli Society

• Israeli internal decline:
  • Dangers posed by right-wing policies, settlement expansion, and weakening of democratic institutions (18:49-20:05).
  • “The right wing in Israel is trying to destroy some of the bases for the good things that Israel had of democracy, even though it was only for Jews.” – Raja Shehadeh (18:49)

11. Rethinking Competing Historical Narratives

• Towards a new narrative: Both sides must recognize the other’s right to self-determination, opening space for new types of co-existence (20:42-21:40).

12. Shifting Opportunities for Palestinian “Permission to Narrate”

• Improved global awareness: Since recent events, Palestinians now have more space to tell their stories, and the term “Nakba” has become widely understood (21:54-22:55).

13. Engaging with Media and Public Perception

• Participating in critical spaces: Shehadeh chooses to engage with outlets like The Times, even if he has criticisms, arguing it’s important “to keep the lines open and to try and bring it into more sympathy and understanding of the Palestinians” (23:15-24:07).

14. October 7, Hamas, and Violence

• Understanding reactions to October 7:
  • On initial Gazan joy at breaking the siege: Saw it as relief at “breaking out of jail,” not approval of atrocities (24:52).
  • Differentiates between legitimate resistance and unjustifiable harm to civilians (25:47-27:32).
• Quote:
  “The attempt at taking a stand against Israel is legitimate, but the excesses that go on with that are not acceptable to me.” – Raja Shehadeh (26:32)

15. Individuality and Representation

• Rejects being a spokesperson: Refuses to speak for all Palestinians, emphasizing his individual perspective and the futility of ritualized “condemnation” (27:51-28:43).

16. On the Future: One-State, Two-State, or No-State

• Pragmatic gradualism: Cautions that one state may not be realistic soon, advocates first for the end of occupation (29:13).

17. Prognosis for Netanyahu’s Government and Hamas

• Israel’s trajectory: Predicts continued reliance on military force will lead to moral, political, and strategic decline (29:44).
• On Hamas and peace: Uncertain about Hamas’s willingness to compromise, but sees possible past openings for negotiation (30:41-40:17).

18. Renewed Hope and Lessons from South Africa

• Recognition of Palestinian statehood: Growing international recognition is a major source of optimism (31:11-32:21).

19. The Emotional Toll of Constancy and Loss

• Contrast between Ramallah and Edinburgh: Emotional comfort in places that remain unchanged; sadness at constant destruction and instability in Palestine (33:02).
• Quote:
  “Whereas in our country now, every time we love a place, love a hill, love a landscape, it gets destroyed. And we are not given the chance to organize our life in a better way... because we're constantly struggling to survive.” – Raja Shehadeh (33:02)

20. Use of Contentious Legal Terms: “Genocide” and “Apartheid”

• Calculated language choices: Avoided these terms until he believed facts clearly fit, wanting readers to focus on reality, not semantics (36:54-37:43).
• Legal accountability: Stressing the importance of consequences for war crimes as a deterrent (37:45-38:13).

21. Nonviolence, Resistance, and International (In)Action

• Critique of ethical resistance’s failure: When nonviolent legal or diplomatic efforts are obstructed, violent options gain appeal (38:13-39:40).
• Quote:
  “What's the use of being nonviolent when violence is committed against us? Then the answer is the only way to do is to fight like Hamas.” – Raja Shehadeh (39:15)

22. Generational Differences & Tone in Advocacy

• Stridency vs. dialogue: Maintains he’s always preferred a calm, explanatory approach—even while recognizing it’s often less effective emotionally or politically (42:38-43:11).

23. End-of-Year Hope

• Wish for 2026: End the siege of Gaza to enable renewal and possible Israeli moral reckoning (43:49).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Exile:
  “Ramallah was not the real home. It was just a temporary home. And it was an exile's consciousness.” (03:52)

• On Anger:
  “Anger is a dead end... It imprisons you.” (05:23)

• On Friendship and Recognition:
  “Attention to the suffering of the other... I would not accept somebody as a friend who doesn't understand that the right of return is a right that should be upheld.” (14:48)

• On the Future:
  “We have two nations living on one small strip of land, that eventually they had to live together.” (43:18)

• On Using Terms Like ‘Genocide’ and ‘Apartheid’:
  “I didn't use the term apartheid because I didn't want to alienate the readers and... focus on the term rather than on the facts. But now that it has become very clear... I think it's very important to use the term.” (36:54)

• On International Resistance:
  “What's the use of being nonviolent when violence is committed against us? Then the answer is the only way to do is to fight like Hamas.” (39:13)

• On Hope for Change:
  “Hope does not come from governments. The hope comes from people.” (31:11)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Family Displacement and Exile: 02:48 – 04:30
• Relationship with Anger: 05:23 – 06:16
• Justice and Role of the Writer: 06:36 – 07:56
• Loss of Contact Between Israelis and Palestinians: 08:08 – 09:00
• Danger of Collective Responsibility: 09:33 – 10:26
• Zionism and Its Impact: 11:59 – 13:17
• Friendship and Recognition of Suffering: 14:28 – 15:57
• Double Consciousness and Self-Destruction: 17:42 – 20:05
• Narrative Reconciliation: 20:42 – 21:40
• Permission to Narrate: 21:54 – 22:55
• Initial Gazan Joy at October 7: 24:52 – 25:47
• Legitimacy of Resistance vs. Atrocities: 26:32 – 27:32
• Not a Representative: 27:51 – 28:43
• Outlook on the Future: 29:44 – 32:21
• Contrast Between Edinburgh and Palestine: 33:02
• On Legal Language (‘Genocide’, ‘Apartheid’): 36:54 – 37:43
• On Ethical Resistance and Its Obstacles: 38:13 – 39:40
• Generational Tones in Activism: 42:38 – 43:11
• Hope for Ending Gaza Siege: 43:49

Final Thoughts

Raja Shehadeh’s reflections stress the urgent need to humanize all sides, to tell untold stories, and to challenge entrenched narratives. Despite immense frustration and pain, he offers an unwavering belief in the possibility of peace and coexistence, foregrounding the role of ordinary people and individual relationships, as well as the necessity of confronting both past and present with clear-eyed honesty.

Listen to the full conversation for deeper nuance and context.