'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Interview" - Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Daily
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Description: The biggest stories of our time, told by the best journalists in the world. Hosted by Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise. Twenty minutes a day, five days a week, ready by 6 a.m.
• Episode: ‘The Interview’: Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
• Release Date: February 15, 2025

Participants:

• Lulu Garcia Navarro: Host
• Senator Ruben Gallego: Arizona’s Junior Democratic Senator

---

1. Introduction and Context ([00:31] - [02:00])

Lulu Garcia Navarro sets the stage by highlighting the tumultuous political landscape dominated by President Donald Trump and his billionaire ally, Elon Musk. Their attempts to reshape the U.S. government through actions like dismantling federal agencies and mass firings are pushing the limits of both the judiciary and the opposition. Democrats, having lost key seats, including the Senate and the presidency, find themselves in a period of introspection to develop strategies to counter Trump’s agenda and regain voter support, especially among demographics that have been swaying towards Trump.

Key Points:

• Senator Ruben Gallego’s victory in Arizona as a significant Democratic win.
• Gallego’s background as the son of an immigrant, Harvard-educated, Marine veteran, and his connection with voters through his personal story.

---

2. The Current Political Climate and Democratic Challenges ([02:00] - [04:14])

In the interview, Senator Gallego discusses the unprecedented challenges Democrats face without Republican allies to counter Trump’s moves. He draws parallels to his time in the Arizona State House when Republicans had full control, emphasizing the difficulty in stopping legislative actions without bipartisan support.

Notable Quote:

• “I do think that the party, and at least talking to my colleagues, are starting to see that this is an existential threat. If we keep going down this road, if we can't rely on the judiciary to, you know, be part of checks and balances, then what is left?” ([03:37])

Key Points:

• Democrats are recognizing the severity of the current political threats.
• There's a sense of paralysis within the party, leading to missed opportunities and growing fears about the future.

---

3. Effective Opposition and Risk-Taking ([04:14] - [07:07])

Gallego emphasizes the necessity for Democrats to overcome their fear of failure. He criticizes the party’s reluctance to take risks, which he believes hampers their ability to connect with voters and present themselves as a viable alternative to Trump.

Notable Quotes:

• “The biggest mistake I've seen Democrats do, is that we're always afraid. We're always afraid of failing, so we don't take risks.” ([04:58])
• “We're the ones that trying to be the people that are, number one, protecting the Constitution, number two, fighting for you.” ([05:27])

Key Points:

• Democrats need to boldly assert their commitment to protecting the Constitution and advocating for everyday Americans.
• Effective communication and connection with voters, especially those feeling economically strained, are crucial.

---

4. Connecting with the Working Class and Key Demographics ([07:07] - [12:24])

Gallego delves into the importance of reaching out to Latino men and men in general, highlighting his success in doing so during his campaign. He argues that Democrats often hesitate to engage directly with Trump voters, missing opportunities to win their support.

Notable Quotes:

• “I think Democrats are afraid to talk to Trump voters. I think Democrats are afraid to talk to people that are going to criticize them.” ([07:50])
• “I'm gonna make sure that you're gonna have a good paying job so you can start a family.” ([11:21])

Key Points:

• Gallego's approach involved direct engagement in Republican-leaning areas, fostering conversations with Trump supporters.
• Emphasizing practical promises like job creation and economic stability resonated with Latino men, differentiating him from national Democratic strategies.
• The need for Democrats to understand and address the specific needs and values of working-class men without alienating other groups.

---

5. Communication Missteps and Outreach Strategies ([12:24] - [24:10])

Gallego criticizes the Democratic Party’s failure to effectively communicate their support for working-class men, particularly Latino men. He shares his grassroots efforts, such as hosting morning tacos at work sites, to build relationships and trust within these communities.

Notable Quotes:

• “Working class men don't really listen, especially Latino men don't really listen to political commercials. They don't watch TV news.” ([12:24])
• “I would host morning tacos at work sites right during the election. I would go set up tacos and I'd hand out tacos to the dudes and talk to them about life.” ([12:50])

Key Points:

• Traditional Democratic outreach methods may not be effective for certain demographics.
• Direct, personal engagement is essential to bridge the communication gap and build trust with voters who feel overlooked by the party.

---

6. Immigration: Gallego's Stance and Party Criticism ([24:10] - [35:31])

The conversation shifts to immigration, a pivotal issue in the election that adversely affected Democrats. Gallego discusses his support for the Lake-Riley Act, despite criticism from immigrant advocacy groups, arguing that the legislation aligns with the sentiments of many Latinos he interacts with.

Notable Quotes:

• “If you listen to immigration groups if they tell you that this is a representation of where Latinos are because they are totally off.” ([22:37])
• “This has been happening for the last 20 years. The context that I worry about is how do we get the trust of people back...” ([29:05])

Key Points:

• Gallego advocates for immigration reforms that balance control with compassion, supporting measures that address both legal and humanitarian aspects.
• He criticizes the Democratic Party for not adequately representing the diverse views within the Latino community on immigration.
• Emphasizes the need for practical solutions to immigration that garner broader support and restore trust among voters.

---

7. On Class and the Economy: Perception vs. Reality ([35:31] - [37:44])

Gallego addresses the disconnect between economic indicators that favor the Biden administration and the public’s perception of economic hardship. He explains that while macroeconomic statistics may be positive, many Americans, especially the working class, are not feeling the benefits in their daily lives.

Notable Quotes:

• “People that are working class poor don't necessarily look at the ultra rich as their competitors. They want to be rich someday.” ([19:45])
• “We need to expose when there are abuses by the rich, the wealthy, the powerful.” ([21:09])

Key Points:

• There is a significant gap between economic performance metrics and the lived experiences of many Americans.
• Gallego argues that Democrats should focus on addressing economic inequalities and promoting policies that enable upward mobility.
• He warns against narratives that demonize the wealthy, instead advocating for highlighting systemic abuses that affect everyday people.

---

8. Conclusions and Takeaways ([37:44] - [39:15])

In his closing remarks, Gallego reiterates the importance of Democrats taking decisive action to connect with and support the working class. He underscores that addressing economic hardships and rebuilding trust are essential for the party's resurgence.

Notable Quote:

• “If we want to lie to ourselves and say, well, things were really good, when people were telling us it was not, we're going to continue having this problem.” ([36:07])

Key Points:

• Democrats must prioritize meaningful economic reforms and direct voter engagement.
• Rebuilding trust through consistent, relatable messaging is crucial for winning back disillusioned voters.
• Gallego’s insights serve as a roadmap for the Democratic Party to revitalize its strategy and regain its competitive edge.

---

Final Thoughts

Senator Ruben Gallego provides a candid assessment of the Democratic Party’s current struggles, emphasizing the need for bold strategies, effective communication, and genuine voter engagement. His experiences and perspectives highlight critical areas where the party can improve to better serve and connect with key demographics, ultimately aiming to restore its standing in a challenging political environment.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “We’re always afraid of failing, so we don’t take risks.” — Senator Ruben Gallego ([04:58])
• “I'm gonna make sure that you're gonna have a good paying job so you can start a family.” — Senator Ruben Gallego ([11:21])
• “Working class men don't really listen, especially Latino men don't really listen to political commercials.” — Senator Ruben Gallego ([12:24])
• “If we want to lie to ourselves and say, well, things were really good, when people were telling us it was not, we're going to continue having this problem.” — Senator Ruben Gallego ([36:07])

---

This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the interview between Lulu Garcia Navarro and Senator Ruben Gallego on The Daily podcast. It provides a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the episode, highlighting pivotal moments and Gallego’s strategic recommendations for the Democratic Party.

Transcript

[Planned Parenthood]

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[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

From the new York Times, this is the interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. It's been a blizzard of political news.

[Ruben Gallego]

Over the past few weeks as President.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Donald Trump and his billionaire backer Elon Musk try to remake America's government. From dismantling federal agencies to the mass firing of federal workers, the duo's frenzied efforts are testing both the courts and the opposition. Democrats, having lost the Senate and the presidency, are struggling to come up with a unified strategy not only to stop Trump's agenda, but also to win back the voters they need who move towards him in the election. It's a real moment of soul searching for the party. So over the next month, I'll be having a series of conversations with influential Democratic politicians to understand their internal debates about the way forward. My first is with Arizona's junior Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego. Gallego's win over Republican Kerry Lake was one of the few bright spots for Democrats in November. A former member of the House, Gallego won in a tight race by overperforming Kamala Harris. Among key demographics that Democrats have struggled with, especially men and Latinos. Gallego is the son of an immigrant single mother and grew up poor. He eventually went to Harvard and then became a Marine fighting in Iraq and ultimately ended up in politics, where he says his story of struggle and success helped him connect to voters.

[Ruben Gallego]

He has a lot of advice for.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

And criticism of Democrats right now, as I discovered when I sat down with him earlier this week in Washington, D.C.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Hi, how are you? Oh, man, now I'm intimidated. Your smell is way better than mine.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Here's my conversation with Senator Ruben Gallego.

[Ruben Gallego]

Senator, I almost don't know where to start because so much has happened in such a short amount of time. And it occurs to me you're a first term senator, but you were in the house for about 10 years before that and you were in Congress during the first Trump administration.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I was actually. Yeah.

[Ruben Gallego]

Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering, does this time feel different?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It does. And two things. Number one, a lot what you see Trump is doing now is what he tried the first time around. But this time around, we don't have Republican allies. And, you know, what that means is that we're basically fighting on our own. For me, this is more reminiscent when I was in the State House, when the Republicans had full control of the House, the Senate, and the governor in Arizona. Yeah. And the governors in Arizona. And there was just no way stopping them except for trying to find the best way to bring to light, you know, what problems they were causing, what they were violating, what they were going to overall, just like turning the state into. And right now, I think that's where you're seeing a lot of the Democratic establishment party elected officials trying to figure out what to do.

[Ruben Gallego]

Do you see a shift in how seriously the party is taking this moment?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I do think that the party, and at least talking to my colleagues, are starting to see that this is an existential threat. If they keep going down this road, if we can't rely on the judiciary to, you know, be part of checks and balances, then what is left? You know, I think what I'm seeing is a lot of people that are just kind of frozen. And, you know, it's something that happens a lot when situations come out of the norm. And so people, you know, want to make something that's not normal normal. Because if you actually have to accept the reality, it gets very, very scary.

[Ruben Gallego]

And I guess the big question for Democrats is what it means to be an effective opposition party. And I think there are two issues here, right? One is what Democrats should actually do to counter Trump's actions. And the other is how you should communicate what you're doing. On the first, there is talk of using government spending, which has to be negotiated by March 14, as leverage. Obviously, the risk is that if there is a shutdown, the Democrats will be blamed for that. At a moment when indeed the party is trying to reach voters, rebuild itself, communicate that it is a party worth voting for. Is the risk too high?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I mean, the risk is always there. Like this, is we can't be afraid of failing. That's number one. I think that's the biggest mistake I've seen Democrats do, is that we're always afraid. We're always afraid of failing, so we don't take risks. It's okay for us to recognize that that is a potential fallback, but we could also be working to mitigate that somehow. And what does that look like? You know, making sure that we meet the moment where the American public is, and maybe that moment will happen soon. I'm not sure it's March 15, but making sure that we're talking to them. We're showing them that we're the ones that are trying to be the people that are, number one, protecting the Constitution, number two, fighting for you. Because all this BS that's happening right now, prices are still high. The cost of eggs are still high. People can't buy homes. And I think that's the one thing that we still need to figure out, how to pivot back. Because that's where the Republicans are the weakest at. They own this economy now, and they're not doing stuff for everyday Americans right now.

[Ruben Gallego]

I could see you in your brain changing the word.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

My wife warned me before I left for work today not to swear. Okay. But the problem is, I think we have to separate what we're hearing from kind of the D.C. crowd, from what we're hearing kind of in the streets, from what we're hearing about everyday common Americans. Because I go back to Arizona, they're actually not talking about usaid and they're not talking about the courts. They're still talking about egg prices. They're still talking about the cost of everything. So one of the things we have to be very mindful of is that we may engage in a fight, but the rest of the American public may not be with us because they don't understand this fight. And we need to make sure that we're matching our politics to what actually is happening in the world. Because sometimes when we have that disconnect, we miss and then we miss really, really badly. And unfortunately, now we know we can't miss, because when we do, it has political fallout. Like the stuff that's happening right now is because we entirely miss where the American public was during the 2024 election.

[Ruben Gallego]

I want to take a step back because, as we've mentioned, Democrats are trying to redefine their party. And your victory in a state that Trump won has been framed as possibly offering a model for what kind of message actually works. You outperformed Harris in your state, meaning that you won over some Trump voters. Why do you think that happened?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because I do understand that not all Trump voters are actual, straight down the line Trump voters. I think there's a lot of people that voted for Trump because they were frustrated with what was happening in this country, and we weren't afraid to reach out to them. And we went to some of the hardest places in the state from some Republican counties. We sat down with Trump supporters. We weren't afraid to talk to them, and we did it repeatedly.

[Ruben Gallego]

You think Democrats are afraid to talk to Trump voters?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think Democrats are afraid to talk to Trump voters. I think Democrats are afraid to talk to people that are going to criticize them. And I think that's. You're just, you know, in a state like Arizona, there's 300,000 more registered Republicans than Democrats. In Arizona, I had no choice. It was either do it or you're not going to make it. And so we went out there, we sat down, we met with them, and our messaging also was very, very clear to the everyday Arizonan, which I think is very different than from the national campaign was.

[Ruben Gallego]

Why do you think Democrats are afraid to talk to Trump voters?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I don't know. I feel like if they. A lot of them had been doing it, I think they probably would have done a little better. Like, why aren't they going into the reddest areas of the country and talking to them? Donald Trump goes to Harlem. Do we go to the equivalent of Harlem for the red voter? No, we don't.

[Ruben Gallego]

I want to talk through some demographic groups that Democrats really need to win back if they want to be competitive.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Everybody. Yeah.

[Ruben Gallego]

I mean, men, for example. You've been described to me as a brother, and not in a bad way.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[Ruben Gallego]

You won latino men by 30 points in an election that saw Trump dominate that group. Yeah, I know men are a very sort of broad group, but what do you think Democrats have misunderstood about men?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

We could be working to make the status of men better without at the same time diminishing the status of women. And a lot of times we forget that we still need men to vote for us. That's how we still win elections. But we don't really talk about making the life of men better, working to make sure that they have wages so they could support their families. Also think, like, some of this is just, like, purely, like, psychological, that a lot of times we just can't put our finger on. But, you know, during my campaign, I noticed when I was talking to men, especially Latino men, about, like, the feeling of pride, bringing money home, being able to support your family, the feeling of bringing security. Like, for them, they wanted to hear that someone understood that need. And a lot of times we are so afraid, I think, of communicating that to men, because we think somehow we're going to also diminish the status of women. And I think that we need to understand that that's gonna end up being a problem. The fact that we don't talk this way at all to them makes them just think that we're not really. We don't really care about them when, in fact Even when we're not talking about them and we're not campaigning about them, the Democrats on par are actually very good about the status of working class men. And I think Democrats need to figure out how we communicate that to guys and be like, hey, we're gonna make sure that you're gonna have a good paying job so you can start a family. Go out like it was a joke, but I said a lot when I was talking to Latino men, like, I'm gonna make sure you get out of your mom's house, right? You get your troquita. For English speakers, that means your truck. Every Latino man wants a big ass truck, which is nothing wrong with that either. And you're going to go start your own job and you can become rich, right? These are the conversations that, that we should be having, you know, and like, for some reason we have become, we're afraid of saying these types of things. We're afraid of saying like, hey, let's help you get a job so you become rich. Like we use terms like bring more economic stability to you, right? And like these guys don't want that. They don't want economic stability. They want to like really live the American dream. And so honestly, the reason I think it did better than most male Democratic politicians is because I communicated that to them in a very simplest of terms and that's it.

[Ruben Gallego]

I mean, I think one of the difficulties maybe for Democrats is that what you're describing is more traditional values. Right?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

But people vote on values.

[Ruben Gallego]

But are you saying that Democrats should recognize that people want more traditional gender roles, be less afraid of that?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

No, I think Democrats should recognize that people want them to understand that they matter. Right. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to say like, you know, it's, you know, the, the single mom is less important than, than the father. That's not what we're saying. But just saying like, yes, you matter too. You matter in this world, right? You are deserving of a government that's going to respond because supposedly as Democrats supposed to be fighting for everybody. But the way that these men think about things and look at the world, they don't see that. And you know, as someone that grew up on job sites, construction sites, you know, I worked in factories. If you go to these construction sites, these factories, the type of communication you're hearing that these guys talking to each other, it's very much not at all what we think.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Tell me what that means.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, working class men don't really listen, especially Latino men don't really listen to political commercials. They don't watch TV news. They largely will talk amongst themselves and sometimes other working class men will come in with their opinion and that's the only thing they're hearing. That's it.

[Ruben Gallego]

And there's the WhatsApp groups. Come on.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah, those WhatsApp groups aren't good for Democrats either.

[Ruben Gallego]

No.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

And so we have to break that. I mean, so, you know, one of the things I did is like I would host know morning tacos at work sites right during the election. So I would go set up at, you know, knowing when the 5:30m shift was coming off and I'd set up tacos and I'd hand out tacos to the dudes and like I talk to him about, you know, life. And we have to understand where they are. We have to understand what they're hearing because what they're hearing is that the Democrats aren't really for them. And they're hearing it from the one dude that heard it from WhatsApp or the one dude that's listening to talk radio and there's no one saying like, well, you know, actually I heard from another guy that Democrats are actually doing this. Doesn't happen. Just doesn't happen because we don't. There's no way for us to give them that information because we're not going to where they are.

[Ruben Gallego]

You know, after the midterms in 2022, when Democrats did better than expected, many Democrats and you included, seemed to take away that there wasn't this rightward shift among the Latino community. In fact, you said, and I'm quoting here, reporters were talking about realignment. There's no effing realignment.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

You said effing.

[Ruben Gallego]

I said effing. That's not the word you used. Why did you get it wrong?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because I was right then. You know, in 2022, this is when I was the head of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, we had polling that showed that there was no slippage happening because men, especially Latino men, were frustrated, but they felt that things were getting better. And there was also an understanding, especially from women, that, you know, Democrats were better for them with the recession, with a personal recession, not necessarily the government recession continuing on more and more and more and with housing pricing not going down, that's when things just started sliding economically. We weren't meeting the demands. They were, I think they were willing to be hopeful because Biden had just gotten in a lot of the stimulus money still had not worn out. But starting around like early 2023, a lot of the stimulus money went away because we negotiated with the Republicans for it to go away. Interest rates stayed high. And, you know, if for a lot of families, Latino families, owning a home, buying a home is part of the American dream, and now it has gotten even further and further away. So the economics just did not improve. And as soon as some of us heard it, we started putting up the warning signs, but it wasn't. Just wasn't heard. Lastly, what also is the difference is that the way that Trump communicates is actually more apt to get younger Latino men voters, because where they gather their information, where they listen to politics is where Trump is more often versus where we are. You know, he's on podcasts all the time. You know, he's at UFC fights, right? He's at, you know, all these things where they actually see him being a real quote, unquote man. And going into the election, 2023, this is. I. I also warned Democrats about that. We needed to get out there. Like, I had a lot of recommendations that weren't listened to. Like, I wanted, you know, President Biden to go to the Copa Medica game and sit next to some Latino celebrity. You know, I'm a. I love boxing. I'm like, let's go to some boxing matches, right? Let's, like, take some Democrats to boxing matches and meet where, you know, a lot of Latinos are. And the fact is, when you go into a big election in 2024, and you already have a lot of young men coming to vote for the first time that didn't vote in 2022, and all they're learning about politics is through podcasts, through UFC fights, you know, we're gonna start losing that vote if we don't. And we did. And we need to figure out how to get into that world.

[Ruben Gallego]

I was actually shocked to learn that President Trump was the first sitting president to go to a Super bowl game.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah. And he'll do everything right. And, like, why are we not doing it? I'll tell you why. Cause I have heard this before, and I'm not going to tell you which politician was worried about this, but their staff told me, like, I don't want my guy getting booed. It's like, well, I mean, like, so you don't expose yourself to anybody, but then you also don't expose yourself to anybody. And again, this is just the president. This is everybody really running last year. This is the thing that we have to understand as Democrats, like, if we're not willing to be booed, take chances, the people that really get hurt are the people that were supposedly in office for. Right. The people that are barely making it now. And they're gonna be hurt because we didn't take chances.

[Ruben Gallego]

I wanna turn to the subject of class. I interviewed J.D. vance before the election, and, you know, even though your politics are obviously very different than his, your backgrounds do share similar traits. Working class, raised by single mothers, military service in Iraq, went to the Ivy League. And that story of class transition does.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Seem to resonate with voters.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, I think most voters want to believe and do believe in the American dream. And I think when they see examples of that being true, that gives them some hope. Right? And I'm sure JD Heard this, but I certainly heard about this on the campaign trail from single moms who brought their kids up to me. And, like, I want them to meet you because I want them to be like you. He's growing up in the same situation that I am, or that you were right. And, you know, sometimes people miss it. I remember during the my campaign, some of my advisors said, you know, you can't talk about Harvard. I'm like, why not? Like, well, you want to talk. You want working class people to like you. If you tell me you went to Harvard, you're going to remind them that you're not part of that. I'm like, no, you're not getting it. Working class people appreciate kids going to college. They appreciate, especially kids that came from poverty going to college, because that's part of the story, part of the American dream. And, you know, I think whether it comes from left or right, the example really matters, especially when things are rough. But you need that kind of hope to kind of hang onto, because that's what helps you get through those days, especially those hard days, is knowing that things will get better. You know, this is psychologically what people miss about this campaign is when people started feeling like it's not going to get better. That was like a. That should have been a big tell that things were going to go south.

[Ruben Gallego]

Something I really struggle to reconcile is, on the one hand, you have voters saying that the economy and inflation are their top issues, and they feel the pain of price increases, which is completely understandable. On the other hand, under Trump, we now have the richest cabinet in modern history. The world's richest person is gutting the federal government. Yet polls show the president starting his second term with higher approval ratings than when he began his first term. And it sends this confusing message about what the electorate actually wants, class as a central part of your story. So, yeah, why don't you think it's a confusing message?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because people that are working class poor don't necessarily look at the ultra rich as their competitors. They want to be rich someday. So they don't necessarily fault the quote, unquote rich for them being rich. Where they do fault them is when it starts affecting them. So they're going to give, you know, Elon and his little weirdos the benefit of doubt and they're going to give Donald Trump the benefit out until it proves that it's actually affecting them personally. Right. And that's when you'll see them start pushing back. Like if you look at, historically speaking, you know, with the thing that finally, you know, started moving Donald Trump's numbers away before the 2018 elections was when he gave a massive tax cut to the rich. So I think that's what's going to end up happening. I think this administration is going to give a massive tax cut to the rich. They're going to do it by cutting Medicaid and other programs for the poor. And that's when you're gonna see people saying, no, no, no, that's not what I want.

[Ruben Gallego]

So the Democratic message among some Democrats of sort of eat the rich. Right, Right.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

No, it's not gonna work.

[Ruben Gallego]

That's not.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

No, these people wanna be rich. They wanna be rich like most the base Democratic voter wants to be rich. And there's nothing wrong with that. And so our job is to expose when there are abuses by quote, unquote, the rich, the wealthy, the powerful, then that's how we get those people that want to aspire to that to vote for Democrats.

[Ruben Gallego]

So, Elon Musk, Donald Trump, are these the people who have actually figured out how to connect with the working class?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah, we just had an election that proved that. I mean, why? Well, I think because they are, I think they, you know, both are two things that, that think a lot of Democrat politicians are. Number one, they actually understand, quote, unquote, the consumer. Right. And because they are engaged in every day, you know, one way or the other, trying to talk to the consumer. And in this case, it's the voter.

[Ruben Gallego]

They're a salesman, essentially.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Exactly.

[Ruben Gallego]

And they understand who the client is.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

The client's a voter. And they don't, they don't care, by the way. That's the other thing. That's, you know, they don't care how they get the sale done. Right. This is why you saw during the campaign, Trump said, you know what? No tax on tips. We're not going to text security all this kind of stuff and on the other side people are like well that's really going to do something and do it. Imbalance to the budget deficit. What did Donald Trump care? He just wanted to win, right? What is Elon Musk want to do? He just wants to win, right? He knows where the voter is and he'll get there however he can get there.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

After the break, I asked Senator Gallego about a contentious issue where he's challenged his party immigration.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Listen to the immigration groups because they have good legal advice. Do not listen to the immigration groups if they tell you that this is a representation of where Latinos are because they are totally off.

[Planned Parenthood]

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[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I want to.

[Ruben Gallego]

Ask you specifically about immigration, which was one of the central issues of the election as we mentioned, and one that really hurt Democrats. I'm curious how your own story affects your view of the immigration debate. Your parents emigrated from Colombia and Mexico. What was your family's experience with the immigration system?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, so most of my experience was already with the immigration system was already kind of done. My mom was a naturalized citizen when I was born. My father was a legal green card holder then. I don't know what his status is now. But my experience was, for example, crossing the border fairly easily, back and forth, going to work in Mexico and then coming back when I used to work on the farm. But then it's also my experience kind of talking to have a very extended family on both sides about their frustration wanting to come to the United States. For example, talking to family in Mexico that had been waiting for their green card or had been waiting for their work visas and were waiting forever. Or even recently this, you know, the last six years with refugee crisis at the border, hearing from Latinos, immigrant Latinos saying, like, wait a minute, like, why is that person crossing the border and getting a work permit? And my cousin still doesn't have a work permit. So I think kind of being closer to where your everyday Latino is on immigration is really what helped kind of set my policy mindset. Because what you were hearing was entirely different from what you were hearing from groups and other opinion leaders about where Latinos were on the border and immigration. And there's nuance within our communities, within the immigrant community. Right. They can tell the difference or they tell the difference between recent immigrants that came in legally, immigrants that came in 10 years ago illegally, and refugees in asylum seekers right now. And if you, a lot of them will say that person then came in legally. Yes, that person came in 10 years ago. They shouldn't come in legally, but they're part of the community now. Let's give them an opportunity to be US Citizens or come out of the shadows. That person that just crossed the border claiming asylum and now they get a work permit. That's. That's BS, right? That's, that's not right. If you're in that community, that makes sense to you, but if you're kind of out and looking in, which a lot of Democrats do, that doesn't make sense. So you just kind of draw a general idea that they all think the same and they just don't.

[Ruben Gallego]

As senator, your first vote was for the Lake and Riley Act. You were one of two Democratic co sponsors of the bill, the other one being John Fetterman of Pennsylvania. Many in the immigrant advocacy community were, shall we say, unhappy with that position. They have criticized the law. They say it raises due process concerns for immigrants. Another big concern is that it will give states more control over immigration policy, essentially gutting federal authority over that. What was your thinking behind voting for the last time?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, my thinking was for voting behind voting for the second time because I voted for also in the House of Representatives is that know this is a, again, response to talking to voters and they wanted more immigration control and reform. And look, what happened at Laken Raleigh was horrible. And look, these immigration groups, again, have some very valid points in some areas, but where they're attacking or where they're moving is not necessarily in line again, where the majority of voters or even the immigrant community are. So, you know, I, I heard from them a lot and the one thing I heard from them is like, this is not where Latinos, what Latinos want, like, they don't want this bill. I'm like, that's actually not true. You know, I, I, I'm, I go home and there was a lot of, there's a lot of support for bills like this. And certainly I think that there is a mismatch right now. The immigration groups have moved to a point where they somehow started representing that they represent the voice of Latinos, and they don't, they're not even close. And so, you know, one of the things I've been very clear also telling my senators, like, listen to the immigration groups because they have good legal advice. Do not listen to immigration groups if they tell you that this is a representation of where Latinos are, because they are totally off. And, you know, I'm responding to what I saw and heard, you know, out in Arizona. And that's why I've supported last year and this year.

[Ruben Gallego]

This bill, though, does seem to want to change the nature of how immigration is done in this country. And writ large, the architect of this administration's immigration policies is Stephen Miller, who in the past has promoted hardline views by citing the work of white nationalist websites. And that's according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. There does seem to be a strain in this administration that does want to change the makeup of this country.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Without a doubt, yeah.

[Ruben Gallego]

Do you worry that voters, legitimate concerns about our immigration system are being weaponized for ideological ends?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, absolutely, it's, but this isn't new. I mean, they've been, this is. Immigration and border have been weaponized in politics for forever. Before Donald Trump. I mean, when I was involved in the Arizona State House, it was being weaponized. So, you know, none of us should be surprised by it.

[Ruben Gallego]

So then was it hard for you to cast that vote knowing that context?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because this has been happening for the last 20 years. The context that I worry about is how do we get the trust of people back to the point where we can actually bring the immigration conversation to a more normal state of frame. Let me give you kind of a bigger picture of this. When the Democrats basically dropped the ball on the chaos on the border for many years, we essentially lost the debate on immigration reform for years because the everyday voter doesn't trust us on the border and on immigration reform because for years they saw that chaos on the border and we did nothing. The Biden administration finally moved, but by then it had been so long and the damage had been done. And by the way, for us that care about immigration reform, and we truly do. And I want to see immigration reform happen. I want to see undocumented families come out of the shadows. I want dreamers to become citizens. Everything else like that. We've been set back for years because we hesitated on asylum seekers when we knew in our guts that what was happening there was an abuse of the system, was unpopular with Democrats. But somehow we decided that we were going to essentially just give the issue to the Republicans and we could have had a very sane position on this.

[Ruben Gallego]

Do you blame President Biden for that?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I blame President Biden, but I also blame a lot of the people that were advising President Biden, a lot of these groups that were advising President Biden. You know, you're only as good as advice that's given to you. But, you know, these immigration groups that I think are looking out for people ended up making the situation a lot worse.

[Ruben Gallego]

Now, just understand where you stand on specific issues. For example, should local law enforcement be helping ICE carry out deportations?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

No, because if you talk to local law enforcement, and especially in Arizona, talking to sheriffs and talking to the police, they don't have the bandwidth. They don't want to do this. They want to keep the community relationships. And like, police are there to actually enforce local laws. If it's someone that is a drug runner, criminal and they need police backup, sure. Why wouldn't. If there's a warrant or anything else like that. But no, you shouldn't have police doing local immigration laws especially. Can't even afford it.

[Ruben Gallego]

Should migrants be sent to Guantanamo or to prisons in El Salvador?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Not migrants that have their due process, and especially not ones that are dangerous, but certainly ones that are severely dangerous, like people that have committed crimes but we can't legally hold them here. I think there's something to be said about that.

[Ruben Gallego]

I'm surprised.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

For gang members, criminals. I mean, like, why would you want to keep gang members and criminals that are. Don't even have a legal right to be here and Venezuela won't take them back?

[Ruben Gallego]

I think there is a concern that people that get put into these systems, it's sort of like a black hole. It's a legal limbo.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

We've been having legal limbo for the immigrant community forever. I mean, Guantanamo has been used for, you know, refugees and asylum seekers prior.

[Ruben Gallego]

To this, but not ones that have been in the United States. There are people who have been caught at sea.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Okay, I see what you're saying.

[Ruben Gallego]

Yeah, yeah.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Look, look, at the same time, we're dealing in a Very different situations. If there is a hardcore criminal that has gone through our judicial system, but we can't actually deport, what. What are we going to do? I'm not saying, again, we do this for everybody, but there has to be some logical security that we should be thinking about, because they're going to end up being criminals again, especially in these very, very vulnerable communities.

[Ruben Gallego]

How have you seen the deportation working in the last three weeks since Trump has taken over?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

So talking to people in Arizona, talking to ICE agents also, it's caused a lot of fear. Some of the ICE agents are very frustrated also because they feel that they're put on to make an artificial quota, that they first were sent to go after hardcore criminals, and now they're kind of being pushed to just grab anybody. So, for example, in Arizona, they have a quota of 75 people per day. The frustration, I think, is also in the fact that there's just, there isn't really any coordination of need. So, for example, they're bringing investigators off ATF, DEA and HSI, who are actually going after real criminals, both U.S. citizens and non U.S. citizens, and they're just being thrown in here to actually essentially do a show of force. And so it's a frustration on both sides, too. You know, they have families that are living in fear because there's no real communications happening from ice and there's the actual agents themselves feel like this is not a good use of. Of my time nor taxpayer dollar for security.

[Ruben Gallego]

You think it's ineffective?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think if Donald Trump actually wanted to get rid of these hardcore criminals, there is an actual way to do this where you would have a lot of these undocumented families, the ones I've told you that have been here forever, the ones that have kids that are here that will likely help you. But when you kind of are trying to cast a wide net, you're going to have everyone hide and you're going to end up probably making a lot of these criminals that, that are here illegally be able to get away with it.

[Ruben Gallego]

Do you take Donald Trump and his administration at face value, that what they're interested in doing is deporting criminals as opposed to deporting immigrants?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

No, I don't think it at face value. This is why, you know, where can we have our points of leverage to have them focus on that is going to. Is going to be the harder question. Because right now, you know, with this election, you know, we basically hand them the keys to everything. So what can we do to actually make them focus on these hardcore criminals? Is going to be the next, really the big fight.

[Ruben Gallego]

As you discussed, there are concerns about Democrats being too deferential to the more liberal parts of the party. Yes, on immigration, but also gender, LGBTQ rights, dei, whatever it is. And these are all things that the right has been hammering Democrats on for a while, and it seems to be working. So how do Democrats stand for what they believe in without being seen by voters as being outside of the mainstream?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, I think the first problem is it's easier for us to be hit as being extremists if we're not also known for something. If we're not fighting, you know, to make someone's life better, to minimize or bring down the cost of living, you know, raise wages. If we're not actively fighting for that, it's going to be easier for people to take the most extreme positions and say, well, that's actually what the Democrats are. Right. I think most Americans are actually very much pro lgbt. I think they are pro women's rights. I think they're, you know, they're more aligned with, with Democrats than with Republicans are. But when we aren't identified as at the core of doing something for the kind of grander America, they're just going to be able, like, see, they're just so focused on these small little niche groups instead of you. And that resonated. But again, we need to recognize that when Democrats fail, when we fail in making people's lives better, and I know again, someone's going to go, I don't know if you have blogs that attach this podcast, you're going to say, well, the GDP under Biden was the highest and we had the highest, you know, lowest unemployment ever. Ruben Gallego is wrong. Yes, that was all true, but people were not feeling it. People were just not feeling it. And again, if we want to lie to ourselves and say, well, things were really good, the economy was really good, when people were telling us it was not, we're going to continue having this problem, and it's going to be easier for people to take opportunities to take away some of these basic rights if we allow the middle of America to continue to suffer economically.

[Ruben Gallego]

Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you very much.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Thank you.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

That's Senator Reuben Gallego. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Kellen Browning, Ron Hanson, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schuman, and Sam Dolnick.

[Ruben Gallego]

If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the Interview.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

Wherever you get your podcasts to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com theinterview and you can email us anytime at the Interviewy Times. Next week, David talks with Pulitzer Prize winning science writer Ed Yong about experiencing burnout after his years reporting on Covid and how birding helped him recover.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It's meditative in a way that actual meditation is not for me. I struggle to achieve that. When I try and meditate. I achieve it without any effort when I'm birding.

[Lulu Garcia Navarro]

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro and this is the interview from the New York Times.

[Planned Parenthood]

This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Hey, stop what you're doing right now and listen up. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood health centers for services like sti, testing and treatment, birth control, abortion and more. It is essential, life saving, life changing healthcare. Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to healthcare. Donate [e-mail] protect.