Podcast Summary: "The Interview": The Doctor Who Helped Me Understand My Mom’s Choice to Die
Podcast Information:
- Title: The Daily
- Host/Author: The New York Times
- Description: "This is what the news should sound like. The biggest stories of our time, told by the best journalists in the world. Hosted by Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise. Twenty minutes a day, five days a week, ready by 6 a.m."
- Episode: "The Interview": The Doctor Who Helped Me Understand My Mom’s Choice to Die
Introduction
In this poignant episode of The Daily, host David Marchese delves into the deeply personal and ethically complex subject of Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID). Through an intimate conversation with Dr. Ellen Wiebe, a prominent MAID provider from British Columbia, Marchese explores the multifaceted dimensions of assisted death, drawing from his own experience of his mother's choice to end her life through MAID in Ontario.
Personal Connection
David Marchese sets the stage by sharing his personal connection to MAID. Earlier in the year, his mother succumbed to ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis) through MAID—a decision supported unanimously by his family. Initially, Marchese had limited questions about the process, focusing mainly on the practical aspects. However, prompted by an article about Dr. Ellen Wiebe—a seasoned MAID provider in Canada—Marchese realized he harbored numerous unresolved questions about the moral, ethical, and philosophical implications of doctors assisting in ending lives. This realization led him to seek a deeper understanding through his conversation with Dr. Wiebe.
Notable Quote:
“I have a very personal connection with the topic. Earlier this year, my mom died by MAID.”
— David Marchese [00:27]
Interview with Dr. Ellen Wiebe
Dr. Wiebe's Background and Role in MAID
Dr. Ellen Wiebe, aged 72, is a distinguished MAID provider in British Columbia. With hundreds of MAID procedures under her belt, Wiebe is a staunch advocate for the practice, rooted in her dedication to human rights and bodily autonomy. Her professional journey includes significant work in abortion services, highlighting her commitment to patient autonomy across different life stages.
Notable Quote:
“Human rights has been a major focus of my life and my other practice is abortion.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [03:09]
Ethical Concerns and Evaluations in MAID
Marchese raises common criticisms surrounding MAID, including the slippery slope argument, religious objections, and fears of financial or familial coercion. Dr. Wiebe addresses these concerns by emphasizing the rigorous assessment processes in place to ensure that MAID is a genuine choice free from undue pressure or coercion.
Notable Quotes:
“People want to live unless their life is unbearable.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [05:27]
“It's our job as clinicians who assess people for MAID to determine some of these issues you've just brought up.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [05:55]
Eligibility Criteria and Assessment Process
In Canada, MAID is legal nationwide for individuals with grievous and irremediable medical conditions. Marchese details the assessment process, highlighting the requirement of two independent assessments by a doctor or nurse practitioner to determine eligibility. He reflects on his surreal experience observing his mother interact with a MAID assessor, questioning the depth of understanding a remote assessment can truly achieve.
Dr. Wiebe explains that assessments are comprehensive, involving detailed reviews of medical histories and ensuring patients fully comprehend their conditions and the implications of their choices.
Notable Quote:
“What we, the drugs we give in Canada are a general anesthetic... She can still hear you and. Or she probably can still hear you.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [32:14]
MAID and Grief
The conversation shifts to the relationship between MAID and the grieving process. Marchese contrasts his experience with his mother's planned MAID-assisted death to the sudden grief of his friend's suicide. Dr. Wiebe notes that while MAID can allow for closure and meaningful goodbyes, it can also lead to feelings of abandonment if loved ones perceive the choice as an early departure.
Notable Quote:
“The planning for an assist allows for people to do exactly what you said, say the things that need to be said.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [19:12]
Critics and Supporters of MAID
Addressing potential bad faith arguments from both sides, Marchese posits that critics often misrepresent medical professionals as eager or hasty in approving MAID. Dr. Wiebe counters by illustrating how cultural acceptance has evolved over the nine years MAID has been available in Canada, making it a more integrated and thoughtful choice rather than a trend.
Notable Quote:
“I can't think of one that is like that.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [26:23]
Dr. Wiebe's Work in Abortion and Its Emotional Interplay with MAID
Dr. Wiebe discusses her parallel work in abortion services, drawing similarities in advocating for bodily autonomy. She reflects on the emotional balance required to navigate assisting in both the beginning and end of life stages, noting the societal stigmas and the challenges in accessing support for both services.
Notable Quote:
“The same people are against me. I've had lots of anti-abortion people against me and now anti-MAID people against me.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [40:18]
Emotional Resilience and Physician's Perspective on Death
Marchese inquires about the emotional toll of being involved in MAID. Dr. Wiebe emphasizes the importance of setting emotional boundaries to prevent secondary trauma, sharing her own experiences of handling threats from anti-abortion groups and the profound nature of being present in families' final moments.
Notable Quotes:
“If you set boundaries so strongly that you no longer have empathy and you no longer care about the people, then you've gone too far.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [46:49]
“It's an amazing transition for the person and for the family.”
— Dr. Ellen Wiebe [35:08]
Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps
-
David Marchese [00:27]:
“Earlier this year, my mom died by MAID. I have to admit, I didn't really have many questions about it beyond the basic hows.” -
Dr. Ellen Wiebe [03:09]:
“Human rights has been a major focus of my life and my other practice is abortion.” -
Dr. Ellen Wiebe [05:27]:
“People want to live unless their life is unbearable.” -
Dr. Ellen Wiebe [19:12]:
“The planning for an assist allows for people to do exactly what you said, say the things that need to be said.” -
Dr. Ellen Wiebe [32:14]:
“What we, the drugs we give in Canada are a general anesthetic... She can still hear you and. Or she probably can still hear you.” -
Dr. Ellen Wiebe [40:18]:
“The same people are against me. I've had lots of anti-abortion people against me and now anti-MAID people against me.” -
Dr. Ellen Wiebe [46:49]:
“If you set boundaries so strongly that you no longer have empathy and you no longer care about the people, then you've gone too far.”
Conclusion
This episode of The Daily offers a heartfelt and comprehensive exploration of Medical Assistance in Dying through the lens of personal loss and professional expertise. David Marchese's candid discussion with Dr. Ellen Wiebe sheds light on the intricate balance between ethical considerations, personal autonomy, and the profound emotional impacts on both patients and their families. The conversation underscores the importance of compassionate, well-regulated medical practices in navigating the sensitive terrain of end-of-life decisions, while also reflecting on broader societal attitudes towards death, autonomy, and the right to choose one's own fate.
Produced by: Seth Kelly
Edited by: Annabelle Bacon
Mixing: Afim Shapiro
Original Music: Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Mary Lozano
Photography: Devin Yale
Senior Booker: Priya Mathew
Producer: Wyatt Orme
Executive Producer: Allison Benedict
Special Thanks to: Rory Walsh, Renon Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Matty Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick.
For more insightful conversations, visit NYTimes.com or subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.