The Messy Reality of ‘Made in America’

The Daily – The New York Times
Date: December 22, 2025
Host: Michael Barbaro
Guest: Peter Goodman

Episode Overview

This episode investigates the complexities behind bringing high-tech manufacturing—specifically computer chip factories—back to the United States. Journalist Peter Goodman recounts his in-depth reporting on the construction of a massive semiconductor plant in Arizona, led by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC). While this effort symbolizes a “Made in America” revival, it reveals a host of regulatory, workforce, and cultural challenges, ultimately raising questions about whether such projects are replicable templates for American manufacturing revival—or cautionary tales.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Symbolism and Scale of the Arizona Factory

• [01:37] Peter Goodman describes his awe at the immense factory under construction near Phoenix, Arizona—over 1,000 acres, with as many as 15 cranes in sight, and billed as the largest active construction site in North America.
  • “I’ve seen a lot of factories in my day… This is on a scale that I've never even imagined.” —Peter Goodman ([02:11])
• The project is an emblem of both ambition and the logistical feat of reshoring such essential industries.

2. Why Chips—and Why Now?

• [04:20] The decision to build chip factories in the US stems from a new consensus that certain technologies (like advanced chips) are too strategically important to be made almost exclusively overseas—especially considering the risk of supply disruptions (exemplified by the COVID-19 pandemic and the possibility of a Taiwan-China conflict).
  • “It's not that globalization is bad, it's that globalization without insurance against the risks that are an inevitable part of life, that's not so good.” —Peter Goodman ([08:05])

3. Government Intervention and the CHIPS Act

• [08:22] The Biden administration’s CHIPS and Science Act throws tens of billions in subsidies at companies willing to build chip plants domestically. TSMC earned over $6 billion in grants for the Phoenix project.
• This marks a break from free-market orthodoxy—government now plays an assertive, strategic role in the industrial base.

4. Economic Boon—But at What Cost?

• [09:39] Thousands of construction and future factory jobs offer economic transformation for Phoenix and Arizona, diversifying from a real estate-dependent economy.

5. The Regulatory Quagmire

• [15:09] TSMC, used to Singapore- and Taiwan-style “one-stop shop” permitting, is confronted by America’s fragmented regulatory system: thousands of permits, convoluted codes, and permits administered by different government levels.
  • “They actually have to write 18,000 rules that they then have to comply with…” —Peter Goodman ([16:28])
  • This process cost TSMC $35 million solely for rule-writing.

6. Workforce & Cultural Clashes

• [18:02] A lack of skilled US chip-construction labor (the last such “fab” built domestically was over a decade ago) led TSMC to import specialized workers from Taiwan, sparking local union discontent and lawsuits over worker treatment and language barriers.
  • “From the Taiwanese perspective, they're dealing with workers who aren't fully in it for the team and aren't working as hard as the people they're bringing in from Taiwan.” —Peter Goodman ([21:38])

7. Local Land Use and Community Resistance

• [22:14] Tensions arose between factory planners and local homeowners—many retirees—unhappy about the disruption, increased traffic, and potential water issues in their peaceful community.
  • “These homeowners didn’t sign up for some national crusade to advance American manufacturing. Most… just want a peaceful place to live…” ([23:52])

8. The Broader Question: Triumph or Cautionary Tale?

• Everyone involved has legitimate claims—democratic local input vs. federal/strategic interests vs. economic opportunity. Goodman notes:
  • “Pretty much everybody at the table has a reasonable argument to make.” ([25:19])
• Is this project a replicable model for US industrial policy, or a warning of the pitfalls?
  • “I would say, kids, don't try this at home.” —Peter Goodman ([27:19])
  • “If it's this hard for the most successful maker of computer chips in the world… how hard will it be for anybody else?” —Michael Barbaro ([28:26])
  • The process is so arduous and costly that it’s unlikely to draw companies not heavily incentivized by direct government support.

Notable Quotes

• “This is a real life manifestation of what this enormous economy… can produce. And yet… the whole complex had become symbolic not just of what we can achieve, but also the many ways in which American governance can get in the way of our visions.” —Peter Goodman ([12:22] and [13:15])
• “TSMC has to write 18,000 rules… Cost them $35 million just to write the rules.” —Peter Goodman ([16:28])
• “We simply don’t have the muscle memory to build one of these plants.” —Peter Goodman ([18:02])
• “This is not for the faint of heart.” —Peter Goodman ([28:31])
• “If the government writes you a check and gives you concierge service… then maybe everything comes together. But this is not the thing that will convince anyone that it's going to be really easy to build a factory in the United States.” —Peter Goodman ([29:36])

Memorable Moments

• Peter Goodman’s jaw-dropping initial impressions of the factory’s scale.
• The vignette about a supplier needing 15 permits just to move a mound of dirt, exemplifying the byzantine nature of US regulatory requirements ([17:27]–[17:58]).
• The story of local retirees successfully blocking an ancillary plant, highlighting American grassroots participation—and potential obstacles to strategic projects ([22:36]–[24:42]).

Key Timestamps

• [01:37] – Goodman’s on-the-ground factory description
• [04:20] – Rationale behind bringing chip manufacturing to the US
• [08:22] – The CHIPS Act and government intervention
• [15:09] – Permitting headaches and the 18,000 rules
• [18:02] – Workforce shortages and culture clashes
• [22:14] – Land use battles with local communities
• [27:19] – Is this experience a template or a warning?
• [29:36] – Final assessment of the project’s broader implications

Tone and Style

The conversation is insightful, occasionally wry, and peppered with vivid observations and metaphors (“industrial magic trick,” “concierge service from the government”). Goodman’s reporting is detailed and sympathetic to all parties, while Barbaro’s questions channel a skeptical, explanatory tone for listeners.

Conclusion

This episode gives a nuanced, behind-the-scenes portrait of America’s bid to reclaim its manufacturing prowess—revealing both the promise and the messiness of doing “Made in America” at scale. The story of TSMC’s Arizona plant is not just about silicon chips, but about American bureaucracy, cultural clashes, democracy, and the future of strategic industries. The episode concludes that while large-scale manufacturing is possible—given deep pockets and heavy government support—it remains a daunting proposition for all but the most formidable and subsidized players.