‘The Pyrotechnics of Puzzles:’ How NYT Games Are Made

Summary

Summary of ‘The Pyrotechnics of Puzzles:’ How NYT Games Are Made

Podcast: The Daily (The New York Times)
Date: October 11, 2025
Host: Rachel Abrams
Guests: Wina Liu (Connections and Crossword Editor), Joel Fogliano (Mini Crossword creator, Crossword Editor), Sam Ozierski (Spelling Bee, Letter Boxed editor, Crossword Editor)
Theme: A behind-the-scenes look at how New York Times games—Crossword, Spelling Bee, Connections, and more—are created, edited, and kept engaging for millions.

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Overview

This episode dives into the creative and editorial process behind the New York Times' wildly popular games. Rachel Abrams convenes three top puzzle editors to explain how puzzles are conceived, crafted, and curated. The group fields listener questions about topics ranging from whether editors themselves ever “cheat,” to what makes a puzzle "Monday-easy" versus "Saturday-hard," to the passionate debates over which obscure words (and birds!) are allowed in Spelling Bee.

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Meet the Team (01:58–02:24)

• Wina Liu: Puzzle editor for Connections and the Crossword.
• Joel Fogliano: Creator of the Mini Crossword; works across multiple NYT games.
• Sam Ozierski: Digital puzzles editor, best known for the Spelling Bee and Letter Boxed.

Memorable moment:
Joel reacts to Rachel’s story about her dad solving Saturday crosswords in 12 minutes:

“Respect.” — Joel Fogliano (02:47)

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Do Puzzle Editors Cheat? (02:49–05:35)

Wina kicks off with a story about learning "the hard way" that never looking up answers is counterproductive.

“I never learned any of those words. And so I didn’t really get better...now I recommend that, like, cheating is great or looking at the answers.” — Wina Liu (03:07–03:31)

Joel echoes this, wishing he hadn’t been so discouraged when he first tried crosswords:

“I wish I had just asked somebody, like, oh, so what is Elvis Presley’s middle name?” — Joel Fogliano (03:39)

Sam takes the “no such thing as cheating unless it feels like cheating to you” position:

“It is your puzzle. You get to solve it however you like...There’s no such thing as cheating unless it is cheating to you.” — Sam Ozierski (04:45–05:25)

Joel interjects one hard line:

“All that being said, Googling the Wordle is cheating.” — Joel Fogliano (05:27)

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Becoming an NYT Puzzle Editor (05:43–12:09)

Each editor shares their quirky path to the Times:

• Joel Fogliano: Started submitting puzzles in high school, landed an internship with Will Shortz, was first published at 17.

  “I officially joined in 2014. It’s luck. A big part of it is luck. A big part of it is you kind of making your own luck.” — Joel Fogliano (07:16–07:40)

• Sam Ozierski: Lover of “Fill-it-in” puzzles as a kid; published by Times at 17 too; obsessed with "patterns and the pyrotechnics" of puzzles.

  “These grids just looked so cool...I was so into just the patterns and the pyrotechnics, if you will, of puzzles.” — Sam Ozierski (08:06–09:19)

• Wina Liu: Developed a passion for crosswords due to a crush, became serious about solving and later constructing; met Joel on a “crossword cruise.”

  “I went on a crossword cruise with my mom...That’s where I met Joel.” — Wina Liu (09:37–10:37)

Fun fact: The editors display superhuman skills, such as counting letters in phrases instantly.

“Wait, is this a prerequisite for being a puzzle editor?” — Rachel Abrams (11:35)

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How Are Puzzles Constructed and Edited?

The Crossword (13:24–18:31)

Process Overview:

• Receives 150+ puzzle submissions per week from around the world.
• Puzzles are sorted into “no,” “maybe,” and “yes” piles.
• Most editing involves rewriting clues for accuracy and appropriate difficulty.
• Puzzles are slotted into weekdays: Monday (easiest), Saturday (hardest), Sunday (largest).

Discussing difficulty:

“A Monday theme will be really straightforward. No, like, weird head games.” — Wina Liu (15:20)

Example of a recent Monday theme:
Red Bordeaux / Justin Trudeau / Super Nintendo / Cookie Dough — All contain "do do," so the theme is evident, not too tricky. (15:27)

On obscurity:
They discuss balancing obscure references, making sure no unfair crossing appears, and using team diversity to gauge obscurity.

“If all of us have not heard of something, it’s not a great sign.” — Joel Fogliano (16:30)

“We think about ourselves as solvers, but we’re thinking about all the other people that are solving our puzzles...You want it to be accessible.” — Sam Ozierski (16:58)

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The Spelling Bee (18:40–23:11)

• Seven letters chosen to optimize possible solutions.
• Sam uses a database and “curates” the puzzle from the list of candidates.
• Must decide which words are allowed: balancing fun, accessibility, and fairness.
• Editors debate including “Scrabble words” (highly obscure), especially birds and other specialized lingo.

Memorable debate:

“Then you get to the name of a bird...” — Sam Ozierski (20:46) “Anhinga, which drives me crazy...you see anhingas everywhere [in Florida].” — Joel Fogliano (22:26) “My stance on this has changed over time, allowing more and more birds...” — Sam Ozierski (22:14)

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Connections & Editorial Hill to Die On (23:13–24:37)

Winna shares her love for obscure animals like “loris” as a puzzle answer, despite its unpopularity with others.

“My hope is that, you know, someone like, you will then Google loris and you will be greeted with all these amazing, adorable pictures...” — Wina Liu (24:37)

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The Feedback Loop: Friends, Family, and Public (24:46–27:53)

• Editors’ families and friends routinely complain about or debate clues and word lists.
• Joel: Discusses how family game time, complaints, and debates are part of the fun.
• Winna: Parents don’t play, but are supportive in cute ways (custom mug, cap).
• All editors emphasize the importance of soliciting and welcoming feedback—even if it’s just screenshots of someone’s successes.

“It’s part of the enjoyment sometimes is the complaints.” — Joel Fogliano (26:22)
“I love it. I solicit it.” — Wina Liu, on people bragging about scores (27:19)

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What Makes a Good Game? (27:53–30:05)

Sam:

“My golden rule is you keep the solver in mind throughout your entire process...you really just want to feel a sense of accomplishment...” — Sam Ozierski (27:58–28:38)

Joel:

“Unpredictable is a word that comes to mind...you can feel the spark of another human mind on the other end.” — Joel Fogliano (28:40–29:39)

Winna:

“That sense of humor, it’s nice when things are funny...it’s a game. It should be fun and solvable.” — Wina Liu (29:40–30:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Cheating is great” — Wina Liu (03:31)
• “It is your puzzle. You get to solve it however you like.” — Sam Ozierski (04:45)
• On arcane puzzle knowledge: “Sam is just at the top of the list. He’s got a crazy memory.” — Joel Fogliano (12:09)
• “Solvable. Like, there’s nothing worse than opening a puzzle and just not being able to do it...” — Joel Fogliano (29:39)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Meet the Editors & Their Backstories: 01:58–12:09
• Cheating, Learning & Puzzle Philosophy: 02:49–05:43
• How Crossword Editing Works: 13:24–18:31
• Spelling Bee Creation & ‘Bird Word’ Debates: 18:40–23:11
• Listener Questions, Complaints, and Praise: 24:46–27:53
• What Makes a Good Game?: 27:53–30:05

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is energetic, friendly, and full of inside jokes—conveying both the immense passion and the playful camaraderie behind NYT Games. Editors are simultaneously self-effacing, nerdily enthusiastic, and practical; no gatekeepers, but curators eager to make daily puzzles approachable, enjoyable, and, above all, solvable.

For anyone who’s ever played a Times puzzle: This episode reveals the careful thought and real "pyrotechnics" behind every clue—plus, it’s a treat to hear how even the puzzle creators still kvetch, compete, and care just like the rest of us.

Transcript

[Joel Fogliano]

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[Sam Ozierski]

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[Joel Fogliano]

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[Rachel Abrams]

I'm Rachel Abrams and welcome to our first subscriber only episode of the Daily. We are going to be making these from time to time in part because there are just things we don't do on the show that could be interesting and fun. At least fun for us, but hopefully also fun for you, our listeners who go the extra step of subscribing and supporting our work. So for our first episode, we asked all of you for questions about how we make things at the Times. And we heard from a lot of people about one topic in particular. Games, Crossword, wordle Connections Spelling Bee. You all had a lot of questions. So we assembled an all star team of editors and game makers from the New York Times Game department to tell us how they work. We got them into a room on a call, we asked them your questions. We asked them some of our questions. I definitely asked them at least one question from my dad. And here's that conversation. I'm Rachel Abrams and this isn't the Daily. Okay. I am so excited that we are going to get to talk about New York Times games today. It's one of my favorite parts of this company. I I am here with three New York Times games editors. Guys, you want to introduce yourselves really quickly. Tell us your name and what game or games you work on. We'll start with you. Winna.

[Joel Fogliano]

Yeah.

[Wina Liu]

Hi, my name is Wina Liu. I am a puzzle editor on the games team and I write the Daily Connections puzzle and also edit the crossword.

[Joel Fogliano]

I'm Joel Fogliano. I created the mini crossword for the New York Times and work on many other games here.

[Sam Ozierski]

I'm Sam Ozierski, digital puzzles editor for the Times. Most of you all know me from editing the Daily Digital Spelling Bee as well as Letterboxd. But I also still lend a helping hand with the cr which is how I got my start.

[Rachel Abrams]

So I feel like people have really strong relationships and associations with New York Times games. I will share my own, which is during the pandemic, my dad And I. My dad lives in California. We played the crossword every single day together over the phones. We each have our phones out and would be solving it together. My dad also can solve a Saturday crossword. I'm not even kidding. Without cheating in 12 minutes.

[Joel Fogliano]

Respect.

[Sam Ozierski]

Speedy. Speedy.

[Rachel Abrams]

Yeah. My very first question is, do you ever cheat?

[Wina Liu]

I have a story about cheating versus not cheating.

[Rachel Abrams]

Excellent. Let's start there.

[Sam Ozierski]

I can't wait to hear this.

[Wina Liu]

So when I started solving the New York Times crossword in the paper, you know, you get to fold it up and it's this nice little packet by hand.

[Rachel Abrams]

You started solving it by hand?

[Joel Fogliano]

Yeah.

[Sam Ozierski]

Yeah.

[Wina Liu]

Okay. Every time I didn't know an answer, which was most of the time, I left it blank, and I never looked up the answer from the next day. It was like some sort of, like, weird punishment for myself. Like, I didn't earn the answer, so I didn't get it. And as a result, I never learned any of those words. And so I didn't really get better. And I kept on making the same mistakes over and over again. And so now I recommend that, like, cheating is great or looking at the answers.

[Rachel Abrams]

It's a take. Cheating is great.

[Joel Fogliano]

Quote Winna Lou. Cheating is great. Let's get that out there in the world.

[Rachel Abrams]

Okay, we'll just end. We'll end the subscriber content now. I think we got what we need.

[Joel Fogliano]

Winnan. It's so funny. I have a very similar story to that, which is the very first puzzle book I ever got. Really? The first puzzle I ever solved was, like, a vacation I was taking with my mom in seventh grade, and she got me a New York Times crossword book. And it was like, Monday puzzles. And I was so excited, and I was like, here we go. And I got two answers on the first puzzle, and I was like, okay, maybe this one was, like, a hard one. And I flipped it, and I got one answer on the next one, and I was just defeated. I literally put it down and didn't look at New York Times puzzles for, like, two years and kind of, like, got back into it later. And I wish I had just asked somebody, like, oh, so what is Elvis Presley's middle name? Or whatever the crazy trivia was at the time.

[Sam Ozierski]

A R, O, N. Yeah. Aaron, the things you learn from doing the New York Times crossword every day and the things you absorb when you're.

[Joel Fogliano]

Making the useless knowledge you learn is really what you're trying to say. Yeah, but. Yeah, I mean, I think the lesson from that is that people think of Puzzle solving as this solitary thing. And it's really much better when you kind of like, welcome more people in, when you're able to make it a communal thing and a learning thing.

[Rachel Abrams]

Sam, what about you?

[Sam Ozierski]

Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, I guess I'm taking this from the great New York Times crossroad editor, Will Shortz, who himself took this from the great Will Wang. Now, I'm the third generation to say, it is your puzzle. You get to solve it however you like. And I will personally say, I really just don't believe there's anything such as cheating unless it is cheating to you. I think crosswords are so cool because you get to these new things, whether you decide to solve in pencil or pen on paper, whether you use autocheck to help you out, whether you just skip and Google things to help with a tough crossing that you wouldn't have known otherwise. I think it's just cool to be able to have your own individualized, satisfying puzzle solving experience.

[Joel Fogliano]

All that being said, Googling the wordle is cheating. I just want to make it clear. Google the wordle.

[Rachel Abrams]

That is a depth to which none of the three of you will sink.

[Sam Ozierski]

Yeah, it's your puzzle. Solve it however you would like.

[Rachel Abrams]

Okay, so how does one end up working as an editor for the New York Times game section?

[Joel Fogliano]

I mean, I can start. I joined the earliest of the three of us here, so myself, Winna, and Sam all got our start making crossword puzzles for the New York Times. So one of the really cool things the New York Times puzzle team does is accept crossword submissions from around the country. Anybody can send a puzzle in, and you hear back from the editors with feedback. So all of us got into crosswords, then realized, you know, somebody must be making these. Started sending in our puzzles. So that was me in high school.

[Rachel Abrams]

You sent in a puzzle because you wanted the New York Times to publish it?

[Joel Fogliano]

To publish it. Yeah, I had that hubris as a high schooler. Well, don't publish my stuff. Yeah, I mean, my dad was a daily New York Times crossword solver, and he started photocopying the puzzle for me, and I just thought, okay, somebody's making these. I'll try. I made them for my dad first. I sent them into the New York Times and got an email back from Will Shortz saying, yeah, you know, it's not very good, but this part was good. This part was interesting. And after a number of attempts, was finally published. So that following summer.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wait, how old were you when you got a crossword?

[Joel Fogliano]

I was 17.

[Rachel Abrams]

Oh, wow.

[Joel Fogliano]

And then that following summer when I was a freshman in college, I didn't have a job for the summer. Was pretty panicked. I was thinking, like, what could I do? What could I do? And I just sort of cold emailed Will Shortz and was like, do you have an intern? Is that a thing you'd be willing to entertain? He actually did, and then that person dropped out. He emailed me a couple weeks later. Do you still not have a job? I still didn't have a job.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wow.

[Joel Fogliano]

I guess the rest is sort of history. That was 2011, and then I officially joined in 2011. 14. It's luck. A big part of it is luck. A big part of it is you kind of making your own luck. But I don't think. I don't want to speak for us, but none of us thought we would be puzzle editors growing up. It's not really a real thing that you aspire to be, but just by happenstance, sort of made it our careers.

[Rachel Abrams]

I love that. I love that Will Schwartz actually wrote back to you. I feel like people in this newsroom are often so incredibly busy that, like, just hearing that somebody took the time to respond to a high schooler who wanted to submit a puzzle, that's, like. That's so deeply char.

[Joel Fogliano]

Yeah. And we try to pay it forward to this day. Anyone who sends in a puzzle to us, one of our editors writes them back with feedback on how they can get better.

[Rachel Abrams]

Sam, how did you end up becoming an editor at the game section?

[Sam Ozierski]

So I also, you know, Joel gets to tell the story of, like, his parents doing this, and, like, he at least got to look over their shoulder, and he just kind of happened to dabble in high school. I was just a giant nerd. I don't really have, like, that cool of a story other than I was into fill it in puzzles, which look just like cross, but instead of clues, it gives you a list of answers alphabetized by length. And at some point along the line, I think it was my dad just, in trying to get me into crosswords, got me this book of Will Schwartz's favorite crosswords. And that, like, I must have been, like, 12, 13 years old. That was, like, a monumental change for me because it wasn't just like, all right, I get it. Like, I don't know all this trivia that I'm supposed to know. And it's that these grids just looked so cool. These themes were so interesting. You could write multiple letters into a. A single square. You could stack three 15 letter answers at the top. Like, I was so into just the patterns and the pyrotechnics, if you will, of puzzles. So I was just as interested in the puzzle making side of it, of course, not really knowing that normal humans just made puzzles for the times, but went down this deep, dark rabbit hole in middle school and high school, found out that there is, in fact, this burgeoning community of puzzle making people that I've now been welcomed to the ranks of. And I also had my first time's puzzle published when I was 17. And one thing led to another, and here I am.

[Wina Liu]

I think I'm going to echo what Joel said in the beginning about luck. I feel like I've been extraordinarily lucky. And for me, my crossword journey was I had a crush on someone who worked at a chess shop, and I always saw him doing the New York Times crossword. And so I was like, I also do the New York Times crossword. I didn't. And so I would, you know, walk by. I would be walking by in the neighborhood and being like, oh, did you do today's puzzle?

[Rachel Abrams]

Oh, my God. And we would.

[Wina Liu]

We would, you know, work on the puzzles together a little bit. And, you know, we became friends and we actually went to tournament together and co. Solved. It's very fun. But then I got really, really into solving puzzles for a number of years. And then I was too, like, shy to go to the crossword tournaments. There's one local tournament in New York every year, Lalapazula, which is excellent. I would go every year, but I would be too, like, shy to talk to anyone. So I would go solve the puzzles and, like, run away. And then in 2017, I went on a crossroad cruise with my mom. Cause my mom was like, I love cruises. You love Crossroads. We're doing this cruise. And that's where I met Joel. I met Joel on a crossroad cruise in 2017.

[Joel Fogliano]

Yeah, we need to pause on the crossroad cruise. That's a phrase. The phrase that's not that common.

[Sam Ozierski]

It's 15 letters, though.

[Rachel Abrams]

I can maybe assume what a crossword.

[Wina Liu]

Cruise is, but I think it's what you're imagining. Yeah. Actually, we weren't allowed to call it a cruise because it didn't make any stops. You were just on a boat for a week and a half. So it was a crossing.

[Joel Fogliano]

The story is it was the New York Times. New York Times, like, journeys. Is that what it was? The old travel wing of the New York Times. They were doing the Titanic route In the winter. So it was the North Atlantic in the winter with no stops. And then we did a bunch of puzzles on it.

[Rachel Abrams]

You just basically sailed across the ocean doing puzzles?

[Wina Liu]

Yeah.

[Rachel Abrams]

Not stopping to go on any land.

[Wina Liu]

And then we got off and then flew home.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wait, I love this. Also, Sam, I clocked. It was not lost on me that you immediately said that Crossword Cruise had 15 letters. Did you just count that in your head, like, as we were talking?

[Wina Liu]

Sam can do this.

[Sam Ozierski]

We all can do this to very easily.

[Wina Liu]

I can't. I need to use my fingers.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wait, is this a prerequisite for being a puzzle editor? You have to be able to, like, count letters in your. Or is this just something that comes with a job?

[Wina Liu]

Sam is not normal.

[Sam Ozierski]

This is how I will say, I think we. We all come to the table with, like, different secret sauce skill sets. Like, I guess if Winna and Joel are pointing it out as it is like my talking again and again about being drawn to patterns with puzzles. So in my brain, you can say a. You can say a phrase that's 16 letters. You just like. It's just always. It's just always on Crossword brain. 14 letters.

[Rachel Abrams]

Do you ever wish you could turn it off?

[Sam Ozierski]

Sometimes, yes. But sometimes it also leads to puzzles that I have since made for the Times because, you know, you go, oh, wow, I never noticed that that phrase on a sign contains this hidden five letter word.

[Joel Fogliano]

Imagine that we'll be in a meeting and there'll be just like a single answer in a puzzle. Like, I'm trying to, you know, Oreo cookie or something. And Sam will go, you know, Bob Klon debuted that phrase in 2005 in his first crossword. Let's look at each other. Like who? Like, we knows this. We are in the top 0.1% of people who know stuff about New York Times Crossroads. And Sam is just at the top of the list. He's got a crazy memory.

[Sam Ozierski]

That's rich coming from the person who Venmo requested me once for an Uber that we had to share because the Metro north was so messed up in the snow. And the Venmo caption was funny how if you remove the H from Metro north, it anagrams to torment her. So Joel's got some superpowers, too.

[Joel Fogliano]

Busted.

[Rachel Abrams]

Just another day in the life of a New York Times puzzle editor. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about how the puzzles are actually put together. So let's start with the crossword.

[Joel Fogliano]

Yeah, I guess I'll take this. So the crossword is the product that we all work on. Like, if you take connections, that's Winna's and spelling bee, that's Sam's. Everybody, every editor we've hired all work on the crossword. And so what does that mean? So, basically, we get upwards of 150 crosswords sent a week to us from people around the country. And actually the world now there are people sending crosswords from countries we've never received crosswords from, which is really exciting. But basically, we get all these puzzles, and that's kind of the start of the funnel. Then our editors review and sort them into different piles. I'll call them. So there's puzzles that are just no's, and we just. We send some feedback, say, thank you for sending this, but such and such part of the, you know, you made up answers here, or it's too many words, or the theme wasn't interesting to us. And then puzzles also make it into what we call, like, the maybes. And then when we finally do take a puzzle, it's edited. And the way a crossword is edited is just mainly just changing the clues. We rarely change much about the words in the puzzle. Maybe occasionally, but it's mainly just changing the clues. And they're changed for factual accuracy, first of all. But then, of course, those who know New York Times crosswords will know the puzzles are ordered by difficulty. So Monday's the easiest crossword, Saturday's the hardest, and Sunday's really big. And it's somewhere in the medium difficulty range. And so when we're editing a puzzle, a lot of it is actually just changing it for difficulty. So it's changing it to make sure the Monday is easy and the Saturday is brutally hard.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wait, so, okay, this is actually something we got a lot of questions about, which is like, how do you guys decide what is an easy question? What's a Monday question? What's a Tuesday question? Wednesday Winnow. You want to.

[Wina Liu]

Yeah, I think that, surprisingly, we'll get a submission, and it will often be pretty clear what day of the week that puzzle will run on. Sometimes there's some ambiguity.

[Rachel Abrams]

Zip it.

[Wina Liu]

Tuesday or Wednesday. But, like, a Monday theme will be really straightforward. No, like, weird head games.

[Rachel Abrams]

Give us an example of a Monday theme.

[Joel Fogliano]

Ooh, yeah. A recent puzzle we ran had Red Bordeaux, Justin Trudeau, Super Nintendo, and cookie dough. Everybody can figure out that theme. It's dodo, dodo, do. And so it's the sort of theme where you don't really need somebody standing beside you being like, so now what they have in common Is like, you don't need that extra level of headiness with a Monday theme. It should kind of come across the page.

[Wina Liu]

Yeah.

[Rachel Abrams]

How do you guys make a determination about the obscurity of something like that? To me, that's what makes a clue hard.

[Joel Fogliano]

Right.

[Rachel Abrams]

It's like some play or book or actor or piece of, like, history that you would have no idea about. How do you guys determine that?

[Wina Liu]

Yeah, I think it's pretty subjective. I don't think there's an objective standard, but I feel like you can sort of get a sense of, like, was this here intentionally? Was this, like, a featured answer, you know, that was featured by the constructor because it's meaningful, or is it something that made other words work and fit together? And you can usually kind of get a sense of which is which? And I think we, like, consider that we take that into consideration. I'd be interested in what you guys think.

[Joel Fogliano]

I think it's changed over time. Like, I think when it was just Will, it was like, well, maybe Will Schwartz doesn't know that, and that's considered obscure. When it was Will and I, like, we probably had our own blind spots. We do have a team now, and I think that's part of the helpful thing of having a team of seven editors who are looking at it, that if all of us have not heard of something, it's not a great sign. But then a lot of times someone will vouch for something. No, that really is a big artist. Maybe a couple of you haven't heard of it. And that's the sort of debates we have.

[Sam Ozierski]

One of the things that I really like about this team is I think we're really trying to. We think about ourselves as solvers, but we're thinking about all the other people that are solving our puzzles. And we don't want that to be our vibe. To be like, you have to know this capital crossed with this other thing you might not know. And if you didn't, of course, then the crossroads just not right for you. You'll figure it out next time you want it to be accessible and really pull people from all walks of life.

[Rachel Abrams]

It's interesting to think about the fact that your jobs are basically to figure out something that feels challenging enough for whatever day it is, but also solvable. Like, hard enough to be difficult, but easy enough to be achievable. And I wonder if that's kind of how you see it.

[Wina Liu]

Yeah, I think finding the balance is really important. So we do that sometimes. I think it was alluded to with the Crossing. So if there is maybe like a trivia answer that we think maybe people might not be familiar with, we'll try to make sure that all the answers crossing that answer are gettable. You know, you don't want the solver to be stuck on a letter that they don't know.

[Rachel Abrams]

So you, if you have a really hard vertical word, you want the horizontal clues to be easier.

[Wina Liu]

Yes, exactly. Got it. Okay. And like, for connections, if there's gonna be like a really tough, like, wordplay category, I'll try to not put like maybe a trivia category in that same puzzle because you just don't. You don't want the solver to get stuck. So it's okay to have some hard stuff, but it's good to balance it out. It should be fair, right? It should ideally be solvable. The solver should have some kind of in.

[Rachel Abrams]

So, okay, so the crosswords are submitted by people. But what about spelling bee? For example, how do you create the spelling bee for.

[Sam Ozierski]

So for those tuning in for the first time, the way spelling bee works is there's seven different letters arranged in like a hexagonal shape. One of the letters is in the center. You make words by anagramming. The only twist, or there are two twists is you must use the center letter. And you can use all of the letters as often as possible. So with just the letters A, C and I, you can make acai and you can also make acacia. So I'm not kicking back in a chair and going, ah, you know what words you can make with seven different letters? Let's try this and let's just brainstorm all the other words you can make with seven letters. I have a database at my disposal. I think I can say that, you know, theoretically, there are so many different combinations of things that can be made with seven different letters and subsets of them. My role as editor, which is why I draw the line saying I edit spelling bee versus where I create it from scratch, is my role is to pick out the good puzzles. You want to be excited by this puzzle, and then I will also, I already have the pre populated, if you will, word list. That is the theoretical. Every last answer that could possibly be made of those seven letters. And it's my job to go through the controversial job, of course, of deciding which words should be accepted in that puzzle for the day. So it is data driven, but it is human curated is probably the best way I could put spelling bee.

[Rachel Abrams]

Okay, how do you decide what words are acceptable?

[Sam Ozierski]

Yes. Oh, you've got like three Hours for this, right?

[Rachel Abrams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Three hours.

[Joel Fogliano]

No, we're gonna.

[Rachel Abrams]

We're extending the studio time.

[Sam Ozierski]

I can see Joel and Winna already nodding off. They're like, here he goes again.

[Joel Fogliano]

No, I'm curious. Cause I got some nits to pick with you too. So go ahead.

[Sam Ozierski]

Of course, as everybody does, sharpening my knife. I'll even like, you know, just as a little teaser, I would say I, as a solver, would even pick nits with myself as an editor sometimes. The vast majority, you know, in spite of how much this talked about, the vast majority is very easy. Ball. Yes. Call. Fall.

[Rachel Abrams]

These are all non controversial words.

[Joel Fogliano]

I'm with you so far.

[Sam Ozierski]

Then there, yeah, you're following me thus far. Then there are words I'm not. You know, at the risk of one, just totally erring or two, at the risk of like being squarely in somebody's wheelhouse, there are words that, you know, we'll call them the Scrabble words. They are things that, like, are not even listed in some dictionaries. They're only found in unabridged things. It is this genus of shrub that only lives in this one country in the world. So there needs to be a line drawn somewhere because you want to be able to find as many words as possible. You don't want the reason you didn't get to genius, because there are all these quote unquote scrabble words, right? So that's the philosophy around pruning the wordless, as I like to say, to begin with. Then you get to Joel, I'll call you right out. Then you get to the name of a bird.

[Joel Fogliano]

Which one?

[Wina Liu]

Joel's a big bird guy.

[Joel Fogliano]

Which one that you left off?

[Sam Ozierski]

Joel and Joel's father shout out Joel's dad are big bird guys. So there are some birds that are in the spelling bee and there are some birds that aren't. And it seems really, really arbitrary. And I'm not like laughing at you going, ha ha, you love niche birds. No, like, birds should be in the spelling bee. And to be clear, like, my stance on this has changed over time, allowing more and more birds in the spelling bee. Because everybody has their own bits of. We'll call it a specialized thing. But hey, to you bird lovers out there, it's probably not seemingly specialized to you, right?

[Rachel Abrams]

Which birds make the cut?

[Sam Ozierski]

Let's see. There are. Joel, you want to say one that doesn't.

[Joel Fogliano]

One that doesn't is anhinga, which drives me crazy because you go to Florida, you see anhingas everywhere, and Then pica is not in there. Which I don't think Pika's in there.

[Sam Ozierski]

Right.

[Joel Fogliano]

Which is just like a rodent.

[Rachel Abrams]

Sam, your rebuttal.

[Sam Ozierski]

No. So that. So my rebuttal actually is literally is a non rebuttal. I guess what I myself have learned, my own journey as editor, is it's fascinating just how arbitrary language is words that are accepted in some dictionaries but not accepted in other dictionaries. So spelling bee is just yet another lexicon that just has some things and doesn't have others. And then there's that extra layer of making it fun and accessible to such a widespread group of solvers out there. It's a journey and it's ever evolving.

[Rachel Abrams]

Winna, what is your hill to die on bird or other thing that you were like, this must be a clue.

[Wina Liu]

In spelling bee in any of the games. Ooh, Okay.

[Joel Fogliano]

I think connections is a good one. I mean, like, what things have you been like? I know people are telling me not to connections, but you know what? But I'm in charge of connection.

[Wina Liu]

Okay, we can pivot to loras for a second. Loras was in wordle.

[Sam Ozierski]

Oh, Lori.

[Wina Liu]

Loras was the wordle word. We had a great. We had a great discussion. I was extremely pro loras. Who else was?

[Joel Fogliano]

I was Auntie Loris, just for the record.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wait, Loris.

[Joel Fogliano]

I was also L o r I s. Wait.

[Rachel Abrams]

Oh, Loris.

[Wina Liu]

What was like.

[Rachel Abrams]

Is loras a person? Is loras a word?

[Joel Fogliano]

Sorry.

[Rachel Abrams]

Loras is a word making my point.

[Joel Fogliano]

That maybe it shouldn't be the wordle.

[Wina Liu]

Like the slow loras. Adorable. They're slow.

[Joel Fogliano]

Winna like, put it in a mini, then put it in another mini, then was like, she's just like the biggest loras fan you'll meet.

[Wina Liu]

I like them a lot.

[Joel Fogliano]

It's a primate with, like, a nocturnal primate, I think Madagascar with, like, really big eyes. And it's very. It looks like a. What are they? Furby? Yeah, it kind of looks like a furby.

[Sam Ozierski]

And to be clear to the loras hive out there, like, don't. Don't cat. We know Loras's. It's not Laura.

[Joel Fogliano]

Is there a loras hive, though? Like, that's what I really want to know.

[Sam Ozierski]

Winna is their champion. Tina Loras, like, it is their queen. When is the loras queen?

[Wina Liu]

My hope is that, you know, someone like, you will then Google loras and you will be greeted with all these amazing, adorable pictures of the loras and you'll be happy.

[Rachel Abrams]

Okay? But I feel like many, many people Would tweet, what the heck is this word?

[Wina Liu]

I think that actually happened. I think that happened. I think you're right, actually. I wish I had spoken to you before I made this call.

[Rachel Abrams]

I feel like one thing you learn working at the New York Times as a journalist is that people in your life, when they have taken issue with a story that you probably had nothing to do with, they will let you know first. And so I wonder, do you guys have people in your lives who will complain to you about a clue or a puzzle they didn't like? And how do you respond?

[Sam Ozierski]

I've got you. My dad, at this point, there's no context. There's no even gentle thing. To be clear, I love my dad. We have a great relationship. But dad, he just sends Google links to words every day.

[Rachel Abrams]

Wait, does he want them in the spelling bee or the.

[Sam Ozierski]

He wants them in the spelling bee? Yep. And at this point, like, there's no context, I'm like, come on, man. Like, not this again.

[Joel Fogliano]

At this point, like, I just laugh.

[Sam Ozierski]

And we have good conversations around it. But that's my little antidote of someone close in my life that solves puzzles.

[Joel Fogliano]

I mean, one of the cool parts about New York Times games being popular is that everyone in my family plays it. So, like, when we go on family vacations, like, the kind of morning ritual around the coffee is, do the spelling bee. Complain about the words that aren't there. Do the connections. My mom complains about the purple category to me and tells me to text Winna, and I don't. And, like, you know, like, there's just, like, it's fun. I think it's part of the. I think it's part of the enjoyment sometimes is the complaints. The complaints. Enjoyment for other people, I'll say. For us, I think as editors, you develop a thick skin, for one thing, but you also. I mean, you want the feedback to help you become better at your job, but you get feedback from people in real life, too.

[Rachel Abrams]

Winna. Do you have anybody in your life?

[Wina Liu]

So my parents, unlike theirs, do not play any of the games, and they show me their support in other ways. Like, my dad wears his connections baseball cap, which is really cute. My mom made me this mug that says Winna and Connection on it. It's very, very cool. But my dad is like, your cousins say this game is too hard, and they don't play it. But I do. You know, I do hear complaints. And, you know, it's okay. It's good. It's like, you know, I get it. Like, I Love being mad at stuff. And so, you know, I think it's just, like, cool that, like, who among.

[Joel Fogliano]

Us, you know, has not complained?

[Rachel Abrams]

Let me flip this around. My dad likes to send me screenshots when he gets, like, queen bee on the spelling bee, or genius. Sorry, when he gets genius level or when he completes a crossword quickly. Do you get unsolicited screenshots from people who want to brag about their scores?

[Wina Liu]

I love it. I solicit it.

[Rachel Abrams]

You solicit it.

[Wina Liu]

So I'm like, I think people. I don't know if this is true for you all, but I think people assume that everyone sends me their scores. And so people are like, I want to send you. And really, not many people do. So I've been like, no, you can send me your scores. I like it.

[Joel Fogliano]

So what I'm hearing is, I should send you my scores. That's what I'm taking from Joel.

[Wina Liu]

That's what I'm telling you right now.

[Sam Ozierski]

I'm about to lay down.

[Joel Fogliano]

Beware what you wish. Yeah.

[Rachel Abrams]

I have one last question for all of you guys. And by the way, Winna, you're about to get so many unsolicited scores right now. After this airs.

[Sam Ozierski]

Yay.

[Wina Liu]

Thank you in advance.

[Rachel Abrams]

I'm gonna ask all three of you. Generally speaking, what makes a good game?

[Sam Ozierski]

I like a feeling. I try and put myself in the shoes of the solver. That's, like, I'd say, really just a lot of what we do in editing our games. My golden rule is you keep the solver in mind throughout your entire process. So one of the things for me, especially puzzles, maybe even juxtaposed with games, is you really just want to feel a sense of accomplishment somehow, even if that is just your daily jolt from your wordle every day and keeping up your streak or your mini crossword or, you know, cracking the code on a tough crossword theme early. I think what makes a good puzzle is. Is being able to feel a sense of achievement you get for nothing else, you get that dose of dopamine that says, I did it.

[Rachel Abrams]

Joel.

[Joel Fogliano]

So I think unpredictable is a word that comes to mind. Like, there's nothing worse than a stale puzzle. That, to me, I'm not a sudoku person because of that. I kind of know what I'm gonna get with a sudoku. But I love when I open up connections each day. It's like, what did Wina come up with?

[Sam Ozierski]

You gotta do samurai sudoku.

[Joel Fogliano]

You're not gonna convince me to get into sudoku. It's Just not gonna happen. I would say playful. So, like, one thing that's a hallmark of our games is that they're human created. Right. You can feel the spark of another human mind on the other end. Like anything auto generated, you just feel it. And so I feel like that's something we try to have is just like a playful spirit to the puzzles that you can feel while you're solving them. And then the last thing is just like solvable. Like there's nothing worse than opening a puzzle and just not being able to do it, either because the puzzle was made too hard or whatever it is. At the end of the day, we want people to solve our puzzles, despite what it might come across. We really do. And so, yeah, solvable is the last one for me.

[Rachel Abrams]

Winna?

[Wina Liu]

Yeah, I'd like to echo a lot of those points. I think that sense of humor, it's nice when things are funny. I think that just the fact that we're all people and the solvers are people and we're sort of communicating in some way to each other and yeah, it's just playful. It's a game. It should be fun and solvable. I do think that that is. Yeah, it's true, believe it or not, impossible.

[Rachel Abrams]

So solvable.

[Wina Liu]

Right, Right. We do want them to be solvable.

[Rachel Abrams]

Well, Winna, Joel, Sam, thank you guys so much for joining me to talk about New York Times games.

[Wina Liu]

Thank you. So good to be.

[Sam Ozierski]

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Rachel Abrams]

Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley and edited by Brendan Klinkenberg. Contains music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong and Marian Lozano. This episode was Engineered by Katie McCuran. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you next time.

[Sam Ozierski]

This podcast is supported by the American Petroleum Institute. Energy demand is rising and the infrastructure we build today will power generations to come.

[Joel Fogliano]

We can deliver affordable, reliable and innovative.

[Sam Ozierski]

Energy solutions for all Americans. But we need to overhaul our broken permitting process to make that happen.

[Joel Fogliano]

It's time to modernize and build.

[Sam Ozierski]

Because when America builds, America wins. Read API's plan to secure America's future at permitting. Reformnow.org.