Summary of ‘The Pyrotechnics of Puzzles:’ How NYT Games Are Made
Podcast: The Daily (The New York Times)
Date: October 11, 2025
Host: Rachel Abrams
Guests: Wina Liu (Connections and Crossword Editor), Joel Fogliano (Mini Crossword creator, Crossword Editor), Sam Ozierski (Spelling Bee, Letter Boxed editor, Crossword Editor)
Theme: A behind-the-scenes look at how New York Times games—Crossword, Spelling Bee, Connections, and more—are created, edited, and kept engaging for millions.
Overview
This episode dives into the creative and editorial process behind the New York Times' wildly popular games. Rachel Abrams convenes three top puzzle editors to explain how puzzles are conceived, crafted, and curated. The group fields listener questions about topics ranging from whether editors themselves ever “cheat,” to what makes a puzzle "Monday-easy" versus "Saturday-hard," to the passionate debates over which obscure words (and birds!) are allowed in Spelling Bee.
Meet the Team (01:58–02:24)
- Wina Liu: Puzzle editor for Connections and the Crossword.
- Joel Fogliano: Creator of the Mini Crossword; works across multiple NYT games.
- Sam Ozierski: Digital puzzles editor, best known for the Spelling Bee and Letter Boxed.
Memorable moment:
Joel reacts to Rachel’s story about her dad solving Saturday crosswords in 12 minutes:
“Respect.” — Joel Fogliano (02:47)
Do Puzzle Editors Cheat? (02:49–05:35)
Wina kicks off with a story about learning "the hard way" that never looking up answers is counterproductive.
“I never learned any of those words. And so I didn’t really get better...now I recommend that, like, cheating is great or looking at the answers.” — Wina Liu (03:07–03:31)
Joel echoes this, wishing he hadn’t been so discouraged when he first tried crosswords:
“I wish I had just asked somebody, like, oh, so what is Elvis Presley’s middle name?” — Joel Fogliano (03:39)
Sam takes the “no such thing as cheating unless it feels like cheating to you” position:
“It is your puzzle. You get to solve it however you like...There’s no such thing as cheating unless it is cheating to you.” — Sam Ozierski (04:45–05:25)
Joel interjects one hard line:
“All that being said, Googling the Wordle is cheating.” — Joel Fogliano (05:27)
Becoming an NYT Puzzle Editor (05:43–12:09)
Each editor shares their quirky path to the Times:
-
Joel Fogliano: Started submitting puzzles in high school, landed an internship with Will Shortz, was first published at 17.
“I officially joined in 2014. It’s luck. A big part of it is luck. A big part of it is you kind of making your own luck.” — Joel Fogliano (07:16–07:40)
-
Sam Ozierski: Lover of “Fill-it-in” puzzles as a kid; published by Times at 17 too; obsessed with "patterns and the pyrotechnics" of puzzles.
“These grids just looked so cool...I was so into just the patterns and the pyrotechnics, if you will, of puzzles.” — Sam Ozierski (08:06–09:19)
-
Wina Liu: Developed a passion for crosswords due to a crush, became serious about solving and later constructing; met Joel on a “crossword cruise.”
“I went on a crossword cruise with my mom...That’s where I met Joel.” — Wina Liu (09:37–10:37)
Fun fact: The editors display superhuman skills, such as counting letters in phrases instantly.
“Wait, is this a prerequisite for being a puzzle editor?” — Rachel Abrams (11:35)
How Are Puzzles Constructed and Edited?
The Crossword (13:24–18:31)
Process Overview:
- Receives 150+ puzzle submissions per week from around the world.
- Puzzles are sorted into “no,” “maybe,” and “yes” piles.
- Most editing involves rewriting clues for accuracy and appropriate difficulty.
- Puzzles are slotted into weekdays: Monday (easiest), Saturday (hardest), Sunday (largest).
Discussing difficulty:
“A Monday theme will be really straightforward. No, like, weird head games.” — Wina Liu (15:20)
Example of a recent Monday theme:
Red Bordeaux / Justin Trudeau / Super Nintendo / Cookie Dough — All contain "do do," so the theme is evident, not too tricky. (15:27)
On obscurity:
They discuss balancing obscure references, making sure no unfair crossing appears, and using team diversity to gauge obscurity.
“If all of us have not heard of something, it’s not a great sign.” — Joel Fogliano (16:30)
“We think about ourselves as solvers, but we’re thinking about all the other people that are solving our puzzles...You want it to be accessible.” — Sam Ozierski (16:58)
The Spelling Bee (18:40–23:11)
- Seven letters chosen to optimize possible solutions.
- Sam uses a database and “curates” the puzzle from the list of candidates.
- Must decide which words are allowed: balancing fun, accessibility, and fairness.
- Editors debate including “Scrabble words” (highly obscure), especially birds and other specialized lingo.
Memorable debate:
“Then you get to the name of a bird...” — Sam Ozierski (20:46) “Anhinga, which drives me crazy...you see anhingas everywhere [in Florida].” — Joel Fogliano (22:26) “My stance on this has changed over time, allowing more and more birds...” — Sam Ozierski (22:14)
Connections & Editorial Hill to Die On (23:13–24:37)
Winna shares her love for obscure animals like “loris” as a puzzle answer, despite its unpopularity with others.
“My hope is that, you know, someone like, you will then Google loris and you will be greeted with all these amazing, adorable pictures...” — Wina Liu (24:37)
The Feedback Loop: Friends, Family, and Public (24:46–27:53)
- Editors’ families and friends routinely complain about or debate clues and word lists.
- Joel: Discusses how family game time, complaints, and debates are part of the fun.
- Winna: Parents don’t play, but are supportive in cute ways (custom mug, cap).
- All editors emphasize the importance of soliciting and welcoming feedback—even if it’s just screenshots of someone’s successes.
“It’s part of the enjoyment sometimes is the complaints.” — Joel Fogliano (26:22)
“I love it. I solicit it.” — Wina Liu, on people bragging about scores (27:19)
What Makes a Good Game? (27:53–30:05)
Sam:
“My golden rule is you keep the solver in mind throughout your entire process...you really just want to feel a sense of accomplishment...” — Sam Ozierski (27:58–28:38)
Joel:
“Unpredictable is a word that comes to mind...you can feel the spark of another human mind on the other end.” — Joel Fogliano (28:40–29:39)
Winna:
“That sense of humor, it’s nice when things are funny...it’s a game. It should be fun and solvable.” — Wina Liu (29:40–30:04)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Cheating is great” — Wina Liu (03:31)
- “It is your puzzle. You get to solve it however you like.” — Sam Ozierski (04:45)
- On arcane puzzle knowledge: “Sam is just at the top of the list. He’s got a crazy memory.” — Joel Fogliano (12:09)
- “Solvable. Like, there’s nothing worse than opening a puzzle and just not being able to do it...” — Joel Fogliano (29:39)
Timestamps of Key Segments
- Meet the Editors & Their Backstories: 01:58–12:09
- Cheating, Learning & Puzzle Philosophy: 02:49–05:43
- How Crossword Editing Works: 13:24–18:31
- Spelling Bee Creation & ‘Bird Word’ Debates: 18:40–23:11
- Listener Questions, Complaints, and Praise: 24:46–27:53
- What Makes a Good Game?: 27:53–30:05
Tone and Takeaways
The episode is energetic, friendly, and full of inside jokes—conveying both the immense passion and the playful camaraderie behind NYT Games. Editors are simultaneously self-effacing, nerdily enthusiastic, and practical; no gatekeepers, but curators eager to make daily puzzles approachable, enjoyable, and, above all, solvable.
For anyone who’s ever played a Times puzzle: This episode reveals the careful thought and real "pyrotechnics" behind every clue—plus, it’s a treat to hear how even the puzzle creators still kvetch, compete, and care just like the rest of us.