The Sunday Daily: Our Neanderthals, Ourselves

Podcast: The Daily by The New York Times
Date: January 25, 2026
Hosts: Michael Barbaro
Guests: Carl Zimmer (science writer), Franz Litz (science journalist)

Overview

Main Theme:
This episode explores how our understanding of Neanderthals—our closest ancient human relatives—has dramatically changed in recent years. For more than a century they were considered primitive, brutish, and inferior to modern humans. But a new wave of genetic and archaeological evidence reveals a much richer, more complex portrait, prompting a reevaluation of what it means to be human and how we view our ancient past.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origins of Neanderthal Stereotypes

[01:15 - 13:49]

• Early Depictions:
  • Franz recounts being captivated by the “March of Progress” chart in school, with Neanderthals portrayed as “a sad caveman...a cross between Yogi Berra and a hairball” who bridged the gap between monkeys and modern man.
    — Franz [04:11]
  • The 1900s “Old Man of La Chapelle” skeleton was misreconstructed due to severe arthritis, leading to an enduring caricature of Neanderthals as bent, ape-like brutes.
    • “The reconstruction was wrong…And this really just locked in this homo stupidist image of Neanderthals as just being...synonymous with savage or dumb.” — Carl [08:39]
• Impact on Science and Pop Culture:
  • These misrepresentations influenced everything from film (“Neanderthal Man” [1953], featuring a scientist devolving into a “sex crazed maniac”) to advertising (the Geico Caveman).
  • “Nobody has to explain to you what you’re seeing on an ad. It’s a Neanderthal. We all recognize this caveman and this image kind of calcified into sort of a bias.” — Carl [12:36]

2. Scientific Biases and Attribution Errors

[13:27 - 13:49]

• For generations, sophisticated archeological finds in Europe were attributed to Homo sapiens, never Neanderthals. If the tool was refined, it was assumed to be “ours”; if crude, it was labeled Neanderthal.
  • “There was an assumption that Neanderthals were just incapable of all sorts of things that modern humans can do, and that that’s the secret to why we’re here, and they’re not.” — Carl [13:35]

3. The DNA Revolution and Redefining Neanderthals

[15:29 – 21:10]

• Genetic Breakthroughs:
  • In the late 1990s and 2000s, scientists extracted Neanderthal DNA, culminating in the first full Neanderthal genome (2010).
  • Comparison of genomes revealed interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens.
    • “Pretty much all humans on Earth today have at least a little bit of Neanderthal DNA...we all carry this vestige of these Neanderthals within us.” — Carl [17:41]
    • “Up to 4 or 5%. And I think I have 2%.” — Franz [17:47]
• Expanding the Genetic Legacy:
  • Initially believed only non-Africans had Neanderthal DNA, newer studies show back-migrations spread fragments even into Africa.
    • “Across Africa, you can actually find people with a little bit of Neanderthal DNA. But it really does unite all of us.” — Carl [19:16]
• Cognitive Implications:
  • Neanderthals had comparably large brains, and the DNA shows similar genes for neural development, suggesting high intelligence.

4. Archaeological Evidence: Complex Neanderthal Life

[20:10 – 23:45]

• Evidence of Advanced Behaviors:
  • Burials with flowers or decorations, implying ritual and empathy.
  • Mastery of fire—including tools to make “fire on demand”.
  • Created adhesives (melted tar) to mount spear points.
  • Possible use of language.
  • Adorned themselves with jewelry (eagle talon necklaces) and made art.
  • Recent finds: 42,000-year-old “crayon”, potential evidence for symbolic art.
    • “So, for example, Neanderthals were able to make fire. They had tools that they could use to start fires when they needed them, where they needed them, which is an incredible power to have...” — Carl [21:15]
    • “One fashion item among Neanderthals was a necklace made of talons from eagles…” — Carl [22:03]
    • “Lovers, fire starters, crayon users, jewelry wearers.” — Michael [23:31]
  • Even possible evidence that Neanderthals kissed, based on genetic markers.

5. The Ongoing Scientific Revolution

[23:45 – 24:07]

• New findings continually “rewrite” the human family tree, with ongoing discoveries happening almost monthly.
  • “It is changing really fast. I mean, this is a kind of field that keeps us reporters very busy.” — Carl [23:45]

6. Denisovans and Other Lost Relatives

[25:49 – 30:27]

• Discovery of Denisovans:
  • Identified from a bone fragment and DNA in a Siberian cave.
  • “Third lineage” alongside humans and Neanderthals, also interbred with Homo sapiens.
    • “The Neanderthals headed west, the Denisovans headed east…They’re all over the place, and we didn’t even know they existed.” — Carl [26:54]
  • Human remains across Asia (Tibet, Taiwan, Laos) now attributed to Denisovans.
• Physical Characteristics:
  • Massive heads, huge teeth, tall, bodies likely more slender than Neanderthals.
• Other “Ghost” Lineages:
  • Some stretches of modern DNA don’t match any currently known lineage, suggesting other, as-yet-undiscovered humans.

7. What It Means For Us: Reflections and Philosophy

[30:27 – 34:06]

• Rethinking Human Uniqueness:
  • “If we think about, well, what about language?...all these sorts of things that we would say...that makes us special. No, it’s not true. It blurs out into our extended family tree.” — Carl [32:15]
• Parallels to Human Behavior:
  • Franz connects past Neanderthal denigration to humanity’s history of calling others “subhuman,” leading to horrors like slavery and the Holocaust.
    • “So for me, the story of Neanderthals speaks to the whole tapestry of inhumanity of humans. How much they have to denigrate each other and call each other subhuman.” — Franz [32:35]
• A Call for Broader Perspective:
  • “Let’s take down the March of Progress and replace it with this much richer, more complex view of humanity that extends way beyond what we might have once been willing to extend it to.” — Carl [33:33]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “So basically a pretty bad skeleton ends up as an illustration...that was the illustration that launched a thousand parodies and caricatures of the Neanderthal.” — Michael [09:25]

• “Sex is involved there.” — Michael [17:02]
  “Yeah, sex, exactly. And all that that entails...there must have been children produced...pretty much all humans on Earth today have at least a little bit of Neanderthal DNA.” — Carl [17:03]

• “Fire on demand is an essential innovation to modern life.” — Michael [21:39]

• “Lovers, fire starters, crayon users, jewelry wearers.” — Michael [23:31]

• “I am quite confident that there are other humans that we have yet to find. There are hints of them out there... Maybe some of these other lost humans, and we just have to go out and find them.” — Carl [29:32]

• “That instinct to immediately fear and be hostile to those we see as different.” — Michael [33:01]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and the Neanderthal Stereotype: [01:15 – 13:49]
• DNA Revolution & New Revelations: [15:29 – 23:45]
• The Denisovan Discovery: [25:49 – 30:27]
• What It Means for Us & Human Nature: [30:27 – 34:06]

Conclusion

The episode reveals how deeply our ideas about Neanderthals—and humanity—are colored by old prejudices and scientific assumptions. The new evidence paints a picture of Neanderthals not as brutish outcasts, but as innovative, empathetic, and complex kin. As the boundaries between “us” and “them” blur, the hosts and guests encourage listeners to reconsider arrogance about what makes us unique, and to broaden our embrace of what it means to be human.

For listeners:
If you’re new to recent paleoanthropology, this tight, engaging episode spotlights why the “March of Progress” is overdue for the dustbin—and why human history is far richer, stranger, and more connected than we’ve long believed.