The Year in Music

Summary

The Daily – "The Year in Music" Episode Summary

Release Date: December 27, 2024

Hosted by Melissa Kirsch, deputy editor of Culture and Lifestyle at The New York Times, this episode of The Daily delves into the significant events and trends that shaped the music landscape in 2024. Joining Kirsch are esteemed pop music critics John Perez, John Caramonica, and Lindsey Zolatz, alongside host Michael Barbaro, who provide insightful analysis and diverse perspectives on the year's musical milestones.

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Charli XCX's "Brat": A Cultural Phenomenon

The episode kicks off with a discussion on Charli XCX’s standout album, Brat. John Perez lauds the album as his "number one album of 2024," highlighting its "wonderful, upbeat, electronic" sound and its exploration of personal themes. He states:

[02:06] John Perez: "It was very rich in text, subtext, metatext and Internet interaction. I liked the music. I liked the attitude. I liked the whole idea of shaking up the culture."

John Caramonica adds that Brat transcended music, becoming a "culture-wide phenomenon" largely due to its savvy marketing and visually striking album cover, which he describes as "endlessly memed" and integral to its success:

[02:54] John Caramonica: "The meta commentary about the album rollout, the packaging, the marketing strategy... argue that it became bigger than the music itself."

Contrastingly, Michael Barbaro offers a critical viewpoint, questioning Charli's vocal prowess and the album's artistic impact:

[04:15] Michael Barbaro: "If you listen to them purely as art, the songs are not that effective. I never think of Charlie's voice like I think of Taylor's or Beyonce's."

This divergent opinion underscores the album's complex reception, balancing musical innovation with debates over vocal authenticity.

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Chapel Roan: Rising Star with Authenticity

Next, the conversation shifts to Chapel Roan, an artist who emerged as a significant figure in 2024. John Perez emphasizes her evolution from a lower-tier artist to a beloved songwriter, attributing her success to "incredibly sophisticated visual presentation" and "direct, poetic lyrics about lived experience." He remarks:

[07:32] John Perez: "Chapel Roan is an incredibly strong, traditional songwriter. The songs are so well structured, and I think at root, they are very studied."

John Caramonica appreciates Chapel’s departure from the contemporary pop mold, noting her ability to offer a "sonic alternative" with "big, almost Broadway big melodies" that deliver "cathartic emotion":

[08:49] John Caramonica: "These are big, almost, you know, Broadway big melodies... songs that can be belted on a stage with big, cathartic emotion."

Further highlighting her impact, Michael Barbaro points out Chapel’s representation of queer themes, which resonated deeply with younger audiences:

[11:09] Michael Barbaro: "Chapel Roan is singing songs about queer love, queer lust, queer disappointment... speaking very loudly, especially for a younger generation."

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Sabrina Carpenter: Proving Her Versatility

Sabrina Carpenter's trajectory in 2024 is another focal point. Initially gaining attention with her quirky hit "Espresso," Carpenter solidified her standing with the release of "Please, Please, Please," which Perez credits for dispelling notions of her being a "one-hit wonder":

[12:17] John Perez: "The way she rolled out these hits and all showcase different strengths of hers was really impressive... made her one of the year's breakout stars."

John Caramonica adds that Carpenter's strategic release of consecutive hits demonstrated her versatility and prevented her from being pigeonholed:

[12:47] John Caramonica: "She pretty much immediately puts out maybe an even better single... showing that she is no one-hit wonder."

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Taylor Swift's "Tortured Poets Department": Commercial Triumph vs. Cultural Impact

Despite the prevailing successes of newer artists, Taylor Swift's Tortured Poets Department stands out as the year's top album in terms of sales and fan engagement. John Caramonica notes, however, that its cultural resonance didn't match its commercial performance:

[14:30] John Caramonica: "The songs didn't have the cultural impact of say, an espresso or a good luck babe. They weren't the songs that you heard out in the world."

Michael Barbaro underscores a shift in the music industry dynamics, suggesting that Swift's extensive existing fan base means her new releases aren't necessarily guaranteed hits:

[15:13] Michael Barbaro: "Taylor has 300 million people who care about Taylor Swift now. Does that mean that she has a hit? It does not."

Perez empathizes with Swift's challenge of innovating within her established style:

[15:56] John Perez: "She's got her own eras to compete with. Part of the letdown... was, this is familiar Taylor."

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Drake vs. Kendrick Lamar: A Historic Feud

A significant narrative of 2024 was the escalating feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar. Michael Barbaro provides a comprehensive background, describing Drake's pop-oriented approach versus Kendrick's traditional, politically charged lyricism:

[18:25] Michael Barbaro: "Drake and Kendrick are generational peers... Through the Drake lens, hip hop is a font for melody... Kendrick is a moralist... art matters, that black art matters."

The rivalry culminated in a series of diss tracks, with Kendrick Lamar emerging victorious by releasing the "biggest diss record hit" in hip hop history. Perez characterizes Drake's reputation as damaged and Kendrick's elevated status as a result:

[21:35] Michael Barbaro: "Damaged Drake's stock and elevated Kendrick's stock."

John Caramonica reflects on the broader cultural implications, noting that the feud mirrored societal divisions:

[22:21] John Caramonica: "The refrain of 'you're not like us' resonates... even outside of the world of hip hop... into something more primal in our culture."

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Pop Meets Country: Genre Blending Dominates 2024

A notable trend in 2024 was the crossover of pop artists into country music, exemplified by Beyoncé, Shabuzzi, and Post Malone.

Beyoncé’s "Cowboy Carter": Beyoncé’s album Cowboy Carter featured collaborations with prominent country legends like Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson. John Perez highlights the album's role in addressing racial representation in country music:

[24:53] John Perez: "Beyoncé's saying... I'm from Texas. I heard a lot of country. I can sing country. It belongs to her."

Michael Barbaro praises Beyoncé's commitment to "historically minded albums" that spotlight black contributions to American music:

[26:19] Michael Barbaro: "Beyoncé has been on this long run of making historically minded albums that restore black contribution... to the center of the discourse."

John Caramonica critiques the album's overtly thematic approach but acknowledges its significance in advocating for diversity:

[27:10] John Caramonica: "It's a record that feels very thesis-driven... a record to get behind if you feel that way."

Shabuzzi’s "A Bar Song, Tipsy": Shabuzzi’s track, which tied for the longest-running number one on the Billboard Hot 100, exemplifies the successful fusion of hip-hop and country:

[28:36] John Perez: "Shabuzzi is from the South and this is a natural sound for him... it's music."

John Caramonica notes the song's popularity despite not fully understanding its widespread appeal, drawing parallels to Lil Nas X's crossover hit:

[29:30] Michael Barbaro: "Both are effective pop songs... indicates a maturing of a generation that accepts pop music isn't simply pop."

Post Malone’s "F1 Trillion": Post Malone's venture into country music, featuring collaborations with Nashville stars like Morgan Wallen, reflects his versatility:

[32:17] John Perez: "Post Malone is a real genre chameleon. It's music... he's made a fusion of them in his head and in his production."

Michael Barbaro comments on the structural blending within the album:

[33:16] Michael Barbaro: "It's packed with guests, it's packed with hit-making producers and songwriters... everything on it is country."

The trio discusses the underlying reasons for this genre blending, emphasizing the breaking down of traditional barriers and the commercial viability of country music:

[33:32] Michael Barbaro: "Country music is big business. ... Shabuzzi got played on country radio, Post Malone went straight down the middle."

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Conclusion: A Year of Diversity and Transformation in Music

2024 was marked by significant shifts in the music industry, characterized by genre blending, impactful feuds, and the rise of new voices challenging established norms. From Charli XCX's cultural impact to Chapel Roan's authentic storytelling, Sabrina Carpenter's versatile hits, Taylor Swift's commercial triumphs, and the historic Drake vs. Kendrick Lamar feud, the year underscored the dynamic and evolving nature of music. Additionally, the seamless integration of pop artists into country music highlighted a broader acceptance of genre fluidity, signaling a maturing audience and a more inclusive musical landscape.

As The Daily episode illustrates, the year's music was not just about chart-topping hits but about the conversations and cultural shifts that these artists and their work inspired.

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Notable Quotes:

• [02:06] John Perez: "I liked the whole idea of shaking up the culture."
• [04:15] Michael Barbaro: "If you listen to them purely as art, the songs are not that effective."
• [07:32] John Perez: "Chapel Roan is an incredibly strong, traditional songwriter."
• [12:17] John Perez: "This made her one of the year's breakout stars."
• [18:25] Michael Barbaro: "Drake and Kendrick are generational peers."
• [22:21] John Caramonica: "The spirit of just nastiness... made that song the anthem of 2024."
• [24:53] John Perez: "Beyoncé's saying... it belongs to her."
• [28:36] John Perez: "Shabuzzi is from the South and this is a natural sound for him."

---

This comprehensive exploration of 2024's music scene provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the year's most influential moments, the artists behind them, and the broader cultural implications they carry.

Transcript

[T. Rowe Price Narrator]

At T. Rowe Price, global teams leverage extensive experience to see investment potential differently. Instead of fast answers, they understand that the true road to confident investing is curiosity. It's what drives them to ask smart questions about our ever changing world, like how can clean water transform farmland? Can healthcare innovations create a healthier world? How will AI be part of a new tomorrow? T. Rowe Price's curiosity runs deep, and with it comes the power to help you invest more confidently. Better questions, better outcomes. T. Rowe Price. Learn more@t rowprice.com Curiosity.

[Michael]

Hey, it's Michael. Today, our coverage of the year in arts and in culture continues with guest host Melissa Kirsch speaking to Times critics, reporters and editors. Take a listen.

[Melissa Kirsch]

From the New York Times, this is the Daily. I'm Melissa Kirsch, deputy editor of culture and Lifestyle. As we close out 2024, I'm talking with my colleagues around the newsroom about what they watched and listened to and read this year about the things they loved and the things they didn't love. Today, pop music critics John Perez, John Caramonica, and Lindsey Zolatz on the year in music. It's Friday, December 27th. John, Lindsay, John, thanks for being here.

[John Caramonica]

Hi.

[Michael]

Great to be here.

[John Perez]

Thank you.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Okay, so we're going to take a little trip through the music of 2024, and I thought it would be good to start off with this song. So this is 360 from Charli XCX's album Brat. Charli XCX was one of a bunch of young women who had huge moments in pop this year. John Pereilles, Brat was your number one album of 2024. Tell us why.

[John Perez]

Because the music is wonderful, upbeat, electronic, crazy stuff going on in the background. And also an artistic journey through an identity crisis. She was struggling as a artist in her 30s who wanted to be bigger but also wanted to have a life, but also should she have a baby. But also she really likes to party. So it was very rich in text, subtext, metatext and Internet interaction. I liked the music. I liked the attitude. I liked the whole idea of shaking up the culture.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Mm. Lindsay it wasn't just that people loved these songs. Brat became this like culture wide phenomenon. Right. How did that happen?

[John Caramonica]

I think a lot of it had to do with Charlie being really savvy about the sort of extra musical aspects of pop stardom these days that had this really bold eye grabbing cover with this very distinct slime green that really jumped out at you in this low res font that just said brat and that was endlessly memed. You Know, seemed like it was made to be memed and just sort of set the tone for this essentially marketing campaign that I think really tapped into something effective about the way pop music is consumed in 2024. So I'm also a fan of the record. It was, I think, my number three album of the year. I like Don. I really think it's a strong collection of tunes, but that there's something else. Sort of the meta commentary and also the. The. The meta commentary about sort of the album rollout, the packaging, the marketing strategy of the album that arguably became bigger than the music itself to talk about the Brat phenomenon were for better or worse, not just talking about the music.

[Melissa Kirsch]

John Caramonica album wise.

[Michael]

To me, I find Charlie an unconvincing vocalist. I do not enjoy listening to Brat. To me, Charlie is capturing a mood incredibly well, but I don't feel that mood reflected in the songs and the quality of the songs.

[Melissa Kirsch]

She's reflecting a mood very well, but you don't feel the mood.

[Michael]

I think the mood is real. But to me, the songs, if you listen to them purely as art, the songs are not that effective. I never think of Charlie's voice like I think of Taylor's voice often. I think of Beyonce's voice often. I think of Britney's voice often. I don't think of Charlie's voice. I think it's just we're bumping up against the outer limitations of a skill set.

[Melissa Kirsch]

So you buy Brat as a cultural phenomenon more than you do as a musical phenomenon.

[Michael]

Is this the time to say the Daily is brat? I mean, is this the time?

[Melissa Kirsch]

I think this might be the time.

[Michael]

Okay, well, then there it is.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Well, Lindsay, what does that mean, the Daily is brat?

[John Caramonica]

How long do we have here? No, I just wanted one point that I wanted to respond to what John said. I think Charlie's someone, again, like, not what we think of as a traditional powerhouse pop vocalist in the way that is, you know, getting to the echelon of fame that she. That brought his. Taken her to. Charlie's a vocalist who uses autotune and other filters and vocal manipulations in a way that is artful and interesting, I think, but not, you know, the way that we're used to hearing in a top 40 hit, necessarily or not a pop hit. Like, I think in a lot of ways she's. She manipulates her voice more like a lot of rappers do these days.

[Melissa Kirsch]

John Perez, anything to add?

[John Perez]

I'm not sure the Daily is Pratt.

[Melissa Kirsch]

And why not?

[John Perez]

Not messy enough, not confused enough, not ambivalent enough. Brat is extremely sophisticated electronically, but also has imperfections and mistakes and edges. And I know that all of this is gonna get edited out because it's the daily.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Okay, let's hear from another young female artist whose music seemed to be everywhere this year. Okay, so this is Good Luck Babe by Chapel Roan. I didn't know chapelroan's name before 2024, and she ended up being one of the artists I listened to the most this year, John Caramonica. Can you talk a little bit about where Chapel Roan came from and how she got so big?

[Michael]

Sure. So Chapel Roan is a great example of an artist who has been kicking around the lower tier of the music business for years. You know, people say overnight success, people say, came from nowhere. And, of course, that's rarely, if ever, the case. Chapel had a record deal previously. It did not go right. She works with Dan Nigro, who is a producer, also produces Olivia Rodrigo. Last year, Chapel had a couple of songs that got a bunch of attention. Nothing quite as big as what happened this year, but what started to happen last year is people said, here's someone who has an incredibly sophisticated visual presentation, someone who writes incredibly direct, poetic lyrics about lived experience. And then this year, it all kind of came to a head. And I think the reason it came to a head this year is not to go back to Charlie, but I think Chapel Roan is an incredibly strong, traditional songwriter. I think the songs are so well structured, and I think at root, they are very studied. And that's really why base level fans and online fans are into it. But also everybody else was able to find a way into it as well.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, I think something uniting. The breakthroughs of both Chapel and Charli Xiax this year are just this craving for something slightly different from the way that pop has been going, but not so different that it's not still pop and that it can't still be incredibly popular and this sort of mass medium for communication. I think the alternative that Chapel offers is something more sonic than anything. She's a very strong vocalist. She can belt. And if you think about a lot of the way, you know, the sort of post Taylor Swift wave of pop music, that there's this sort of whispery, you know, not a lot of variation in the melody, just almost the more like, diaristic, confessional lyric that Taylor Swift has kind of. And the people in her wake have really tapped into, I think Chapel offers a sonic alternative to that. These are big, almost, you know, Broadway big melodies like these are Songs that can be belted on a stage and with big, cathartic emotion.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Well, John Perez, people really identified with Chapel Roan, the human being. Like, they really connected with her as a person. What do you think it is about her that made people connect with her?

[John Perez]

Well, she likes sex, for one thing. I mean, this is. Let's put it out there. I mean, these are songs about having sex and enjoying it and unabashedly enjoying it.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

What have you done? You're a Pink Pony girl and you dance at the club oh, mama Just having fun on the stage in my.

[John Perez]

Heels no wonder people like it. I think the other thing about Chaplin is she's also very historically aware. There's Kate Bush in her, there's Lady Gaga in her, there's Cyndi Lauper in her. I mean, there are all these voices, and there's her own powerful lung power. She's a real strong singer.

[Michael]

It also can't be underestimated that Chapelrone is singing songs about queer love, queer lust, queer disappointment. Like, these are things that have often been subliminally encoded into pop music and no longer are subliminally encoded. And I think there's a real power on top of the structure of the songs, on top of the power of the voice, There is this added layer to it, I think is speaking very loudly, especially for a younger generation that is ready for that.

[Melissa Kirsch]

And I think that's really important. I think people really identify with her as a human being.

[Michael]

I went to see her in Tennessee, and I was blown away by the level of fan identification. The Chapel Roan audience is almost like 5x eras tour in intensity, which is saying a lot.

[Melissa Kirsch]

If we're talking about young women in pop, we can't forget to mention Sabrina Carpenter, the Disney star turned pop phenom. Let's hear Espresso Think about me every.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

Night oh, isn't that sweet? I kiss so so you can sleep, baby I know does that mean Espresso?

[Melissa Kirsch]

Thoughts on this song, John Pereilles.

[John Perez]

I was initially resistant to this song because I thought it sounded like sort of pale disco. It grew on me. The comedy factor, the totally garbled and wonderful metaphor. I live on caffeine myself. And the fact that she could do it with such sparkle and such giddiness is what put her across. I think.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Lindsay, you felt like Sabrina Carpenter had some of the defining hits of the year.

[John Caramonica]

I think something that was really cool about what Sabrina Carpenter pulled off this year was, you know, she has this defining summer hit in Espresso, and it's out of nowhere. It's kind of quirky and funny and in some ways has the markings of like a potential one hit wonder song. You know, who is this woman? Fun summer hit and then she pretty much immediately on the tail of Espresso puts out maybe an even better single called Please, Please, Please, which actually ends up being her first number one outperforms Espresso on the charts. And the sort of 12 punch of those singles showed that Sabrina Carpenter from the outset was like I am no one hit wonder if you like Espresso. There's a lot more to me than that and I think just the way that she rolled out these hits and all showcase different strengths of hers was really impressive this year and kind of made her one of the year's breakout stars.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

I have a fun idea, babe. Maybe just stay inside. I know you're craving some fresh air but the ceiling fan is so nice and we could live so happily.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Sabrina Carpenter, Chapel Roan and Charli XCX all had massive years, but the number one album of the year by far came from an industry veteran, Taylor Swift.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

You left your typewriter at my apartment. Straight from the Tortured Poets department.

[Melissa Kirsch]

This is from her album, the Tortured Poets department. But of all the music we're talking about, it didn't feel like the music from this album defined the year. Do you all have theories as to why?

[John Caramonica]

The Tortured Poets department to me is sort of the album on which Taylor Swift is riding the enormous success of the Eras tour which began what, a decade ago at this point when I was 7? Yes. And so I think that while it was this record setting blockbuster in terms of sales and fan engagement, the songs didn't have the cultural impact of say, an espresso A good luck babe. They weren't the songs that you heard out in the world. This year she's post hit.

[Michael]

This is really important to understand. Taylor Swift is post hit. This year was about hits without stars, stars without hits. And what that means is the biggest individual songs you heard this year are likely to come from the hit making ecosystem, which is up from TikTok, slightly unexpected, maybe a little left field. To me, I don't think Chapel and Sabrina fit exactly into that, but I do think that they are the highest profile avatars of that mode of hit creation. Taylor doesn't need that. Taylor has 300 million people who care about Taylor Swift now. Does that mean that she has a hit? It does not.

[John Perez]

I just want to sympathize a little with Taylor Swift because she's got her own eras to compete with. It's harder for her to do a song that she hasn't already done. Part of the letdown of Tortured Poets department was, this is familiar Taylor. She's done this already. We've heard this sound, we've heard this cadence. We've heard the way she double times into the verse. And everybody else is imitating Taylor Swift, too. She's that influential, and so she's got her own background to compete with. And how does she stay new? I mean, it's time for the reaction against her just because she's so familiar.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Let's take a break and we'll be right back with more of the music of 2024.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

And who's gonna hold it?

[T. Rowe Price Narrator]

At T. Rowe Price, global teams leverage extensive experience to see investment potential differently. Instead of fast answers, they understand that the true road to confident investing is curiosity. It's what drives them to ask smart questions about our ever changing world. Like how can clean water transform farmland? Can healthcare innovations create a healthier world? How will AI be part of a new tomorrow? T. Rowe Price's curiosity runs deep, and with it comes the power to help you invest more confidently. Better questions, better outcomes. T. Rowe Price. Learn more@t rowprice.com Curiosity hi, I'm Josh.

[Josh Haner]

Haner, and I'm a staff photographer at the New York Times covering climate change. For years, we've sort of imagined this picture of a polar bear floating on a piece of ice. Those have been the images associated with climate change. My challenge is to find stories that show you how climate change is affecting our world right now. If you want to support the kind of journalism that we're working on here on the Climate and Environment desk at the New York Times, please subscribe on our website or our app.

[Melissa Kirsch]

So we're going to switch gears here. We're going to talk about a pretty major story from the year, the beef between the rappers Drake and Kendrick Lamar. Can we hear? Not like us.

[Michael]

Psst. I see dead people.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Okay, so this feud that is still going on between two of the rap world's biggest stars has gotten fairly nasty. John Caramonica, can you briefly summarize what happened this year between Kendrick Lamar and Drake?

[Michael]

Can I start by going back a little bit, please? It's important to remember before all of this, Drake and Kendrick are generational peers. They are not simply artists of a generation. They are generational peers. They emerged roughly around the same time with two different value propositions for the direction that hip hop should go in. They have worked together in the past, but There has been an icy chill between them for many years. Through the Drake lens, hip hop is a font for melody, for a certain kind of emotional storytelling. It's pop oriented, both in the nature of the songwriting and also simply because a billion people like it. That's the Drake proposition. And I would say that that is the dominant hip hop proposition of the 2010s into the 2020s. Then you have Kendrick. Kendrick is a moralist. He's a lyrical traditional. He's someone who grew up and admired the great storytellers of the 90s and sees himself squarely in that tradition and also understands the genre as something that should be protected, something that needs defense. Kendrick the rapper today is very much the Kendrick the rapper of 10 years ago. Telling stories, complicated double triple entendres and a stern message that art matters, that black art matters, that it's inseparable from politics. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. For the last 10 years, those two ideas have run parallel to each other. It has not been a zero sum game until this year.

[Unknown Rapper]

Lost too many soldiers not to play it safe.

[Michael]

If he walk around, there's a verse that Kendrick had on a future in Metro boomin album where he says the.

[Unknown Rapper]

Big three, it's just big me.

[Michael]

There's no big three. It's just big me. Big three is a reference to Drake J. Cole and Kendrick Lamar, the generational titans of the 2010s. Could have just come and gone and we would have said, oh. And then it would have just come and gone. But it did not come and go. And what followed were about two to three months of back and forth songs.

[Unknown Rapper]

Pip, squeak, pipe down. You ain't in no big three. Scissor got you. You ever thought that OVO was working for me? Fake bully. I hate bullies. You must be a terrible person Watching silence. The famous actor we once knew is looking paranoid and now spiraling. You're moving just like a degenerator.

[Michael]

Songs of a shockingly personal nature with heinous accusations leveled in each direction's always.

[Unknown Rapper]

Screaming, save me, you did it dirty all your life Trying to make in.

[Michael]

Total, I think, damaged Drake's stock and elevated Kendrick's stock. The reason that Kendrick came out on top is because he made a hit. It is the biggest diss record hit, I think, in hip hop history. And that's beating Drake at his own game in the dyad. Drake is the hitmaker and Kendrick took that from him this year.

[John Perez]

My number one song on my list was not like us because I thought that really did sum up the whole 2024 mode of tribalism and contention and general nastiness.

[John Caramonica]

You know, the refrain of you're not like us, you know, resonates, I think, even outside of the world of hip hop beef of music and into something more primal in our culture right now beyond the musical realm. There was a spirit of just nastiness and nastiness against people who don't think the way that you do or come from where you do. That kind of made that song, you know, the anthem of 2024. For better and for worse.

[Unknown Rapper]

They not like us. They not like us.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Let's take another little break and when we come back, we're going to talk about how country music took over pop.

[Unknown Rapper]

I think that Oakland show gonna.

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[Michael]

Has all this stuff that you may not have seen.

[T. Rowe Price Narrator]

The way the tabs are at the.

[John Caramonica]

Top with all of the different sections.

[Michael]

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling, play wordle or.

[T. Rowe Price Narrator]

Connections, and then swipe over to read today's headlines.

[John Caramonica]

There's an article next to a recipe next to games, and it's just easy to get everything in one place.

[Michael]

This app is essential.

[T. Rowe Price Narrator]

The New York Times app, All of the times, all in one place.

[John Caramonica]

Download it [e-mail] app.

[Melissa Kirsch]

It felt like everywhere I turned this year there was another pop musician going country. Can we hear Texas Hold'em by Beyonce?

[Lindsey Zolatz]

This ain't Texas, Ain't no Hold'em Lay our cards down, down.

[Melissa Kirsch]

So this song is from Beyonce's album Cowboy Carter. This album featured appearances by famous country artists, Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson, but Beyonce herself said, it's not a country album, it's a Beyonce album. John Pereilles what does that mean?

[John Perez]

It means whatever Beyonce wants it to mean. Beyonce on this album has people talking directly about what genre is. She has Linda Martel, who's one of the earliest black country stars, talking about genre and how confining it is. So the message is sort of right out there on the surface of this album. Beyonce's saying, you know, I'm from Texas. I heard a lot of country. I can sing country. It belongs to her. It comes after a lot of ferment in the country music world about how black artists were marginalized, sidelined, ignored, and worse. One thing about this album is she has a lot of black country guests on this album. She has Rhiannon Giddens playing banjo at the beginning of Texas hold'em. She's making an alliance with a lot of musicians who have been trying to get into country for years. Black musicians who have been pretty much ignored and sidelined. She put them on the album. So this album puts it out on the table. And because it's Beyonce, it can't be ignored. I mean, I think that's what makes it a Beyonce album, is it can't be ignored. She's too big and I'll be damned.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

If I can't slow dance with you Compose some sugar on me, honey too. It's a real live boogie and a real live hold down.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Don't be a Sean Carmonica.

[Michael]

Beyonce has been on this long run of making historically minded albums that restore black contribution in different corners of American pop to the center of the discourse. She did it on Renaissance, and now she's doing it on Cowboy Carter.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Lindsay.

[John Caramonica]

I think in some ways Cowboy Carter is like an album for liberals who want to signify that they like country music, but that they have some problems with the racial representation of Nashville, how country music radio doesn't like to play women and things like that that like, you know, want to support country music with an asterisk. Cowboy Carter is the album to get behind if you feel that way. And I think almost to a fault. It's a record that feels very Thesis driven to me and I think homeworky.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

And there are parts of it that I think are wonderful and some really sublime runs on this very epic album. But it's also an alb. I think it's an argument more than an album.

[Michael]

Sometimes it is a part of an ongoing conversation that Beyonce is having through her music with her most dedicated listeners about, in this case, the role of black Americans in shaping popular music. And I think, as to your point about Thesis, it does feel like there is a lesson in this. And if people who are outside of the hive seek to learn from that lesson, all the better. But it is also consistent with how Beyonce has been presenting her music for the last few years with a variety of styles.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Okay, I'd like to talk about another artist who went country this year who was also featured on Cowboy Carter. Let's hear A bar song tipsy by Shabuzzi1.

[Unknown Rapper]

Here comes the 2 to the 3.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

To the 4 tell them bring another.

[John Perez]

Round we need to.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Lindsay. This song was inescapable last summer.

[John Caramonica]

Talk to us about Shabuzzi still inescapable as we're. As we're entering winter, it, I believe tied the record for the longest Hot 100 number one song ever. That's a huge, huge, huge hit.

[Michael]

19 weeks.

[John Caramonica]

19 weeks. I don't really get it. I have to say. Not my favorite song of the year, but clearly a song that resonated with a massive amount of people. It. Yeah, I help. This is one too where like I'm open to theories because I truly do not understand why this song is as popular voice it is.

[Michael]

A bar song. Simply puts together two great tastes that in fact taste great together. It is perhaps not a coincidence that the song that Shabuzzi tied for longest run at the top of The Billboard Hot 100 is Lil Nas X's Old Town Road.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

I'm gonna take my horse to the old town Road I'm gonna.

[Michael]

Another hip hop country hybrid. What this tells me is number one. These are both two very effective pop songs. Also, the Shabuzzi song is based on an interpolation of Jaquan's Tipsy, which is an incredible song from the early to mid 2000s, maybe the hardest beat of that year. And a great catchphrase structure that. That Shabuzzi then took and put into this. So it has familiarity. There are millions and millions of people who do not think it's strange to listen to hip hop and listen to country. And those people maybe are not represented in mainstream media, but they exist, they're real. And the success of these songs indicates to me that we are in a maturing of generation that accepts that pop music is not simply pop. And you do not have to say I listen to everything but country. I listen to everything but hip hop. It's that all of these things are part of the larger popular music discourse. And it is not unusual to have hip hop and country not simply sit next to each other, but sit on top of each other. That's what the success of these two songs tells me.

[John Caramonica]

Thank you.

[Michael]

Thank you.

[John Caramonica]

Nailed it.

[Melissa Kirsch]

John Pereilles.

[John Perez]

Well, I think, you know, Shabooz is from the south and this is a natural sound for him. This is not some stunt. It's not some experiment. It's music. He's grown up on country and hip hop and he's made a fusion of them in his head and in his Production, it's like the Lil Nas X record. This music is happening in this generation and I think there's going to be more of this music. There's an audience for this. There are people who are receptive to it. But also, Tipsy was a number one hit on country radio. Country radio has been kind of a barrier to this hybrid, but Tipsy broke through, so I think more of that's going to be happening. Unlike Beyonce, who had to go around country radio, Tipsy got played. And then you have Post Malone who went straight down the middle. Mainstream country.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Let's hear Post Malone, another pop artist who had a huge country moment this year. Let's hear I Had Some Help featuring Morgan Wallen.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

Living in your big glass house with the view I thought you knew I had some help it ain't like I can make.

[Melissa Kirsch]

This is from Post Malone's country album, F1 trillion. Morgan Wallen is a huge country artist. Post Malone, not traditionally a country artist, but he went to Nashville and made this album. John Pereira, talk to me about this song.

[John Perez]

I mean, it's not just this song, it's the whole album. He got every name brand, Nashville songwriter. He got Tim McGraw, he got Hank Williams Jr. He got Blake Shelton, he got Luke Combs, he got Brad Paisley, he got all of the big names. And Post Malone is a real genre chameleon. He fits in wherever he wants to fit in. For a while he was. He was rapping. Then he made a sort of singer songwritery phase. And this country phase is him fitting in with typical mainstream arena scale country. In a way, I felt like this album was almost a parody of current country. It felt like, I'm gonna study up and I'm gonna write songs that fit so squarely into your genre that your radio people will not think twice about playing them.

[Michael]

My only note on the Post Malone album is Post Malone made a rap album. It's just a country album. But like, structurally, it's a rap album. It's packed with guests, it's packed with the hit making producers and songwriters of the day. Except everything on it is country.

[Melissa Kirsch]

And why are we seeing so many pop stars going country?

[Michael]

I think there's a couple reasons. One, those lines between genres that I think especially in the 80s and 90s, we were so preoccupied with, if I'm for indie rock, I must be against hip hop. If I'm for country, I must be against rock. That doesn't matter. Anyone, no person under 30 genuinely thinks that or genuinely feels that. That's like a generational problem. That people older should work through. So there's that. I also think country music is big business. Country music is very popular. That is a huge audience and it is an audience that maybe is a little bit. If any audience is cloistered, maybe the country music audience is cloistered. So Post Malone didn't say, unlike Beyonce, he didn't say, I want to make a concept art piece about what it means for me, an interloper to make a country album. He just said, he picked up the phone and said, who can make hits? I want some country hits. And he got one. It takes two to break out into.

[Lindsey Zolatz]

Ooh baby, you blame me and baby, I blame you hard.

[Melissa Kirsch]

That ain't the truth. John Lindsay John, thank you so much for being here today and thank you so much for helping us make sense of the year in music.

[John Caramonica]

Thanks for having us.

[Michael]

Appreciate it.

[John Perez]

Thanks.

[Melissa Kirsch]

Today's episode was produced by John White with help from Cait Lopresti. It was edited by Wendy Dore with production support by Frannie Carr tothe and original music by Diane Wong. It was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. Special thanks to Saya Michael, Sam Sifton, Karen Ganz, Lauren Manley, Alicia Ba? Itup, Sarah Curtis, Alex Barron, Tina Antolini, Elissa Dudley, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolnick. That's it for the Daily I'm Melissa Kirsch. See you on Monday.

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