Will Republicans Reject Gaetz?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily – "Trump Taps His Fiercest Ally for Attorney General"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Daily
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Description: Delivering the biggest stories of our time, hosted by Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise. Twenty minutes a day, five days a week.
• Episode: Trump Taps His Fiercest Ally for Attorney General
• Release Date: November 18, 2024

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Introduction

The episode delves into President-elect Donald Trump's surprising nomination of Congressman Matt Gaetz as the Attorney General. This move has sparked significant controversy and raised questions about the future dynamics between the executive branch and the Department of Justice (DOJ).

Nomination of Matt Gaetz: An Unexpected Choice

Sabrina Tavernise opens the discussion by highlighting the unexpected nature of Trump's nomination of Matt Gaetz:

• [00:37] Robert Draper: "Another Trump appointment."
• [00:38] Matt Gaetz: "And this is one that is probably going to surprise a lot of people."

The nomination has left many Senate Republicans blindsided, casting doubt on whether the Senate will approve Gaetz’s appointment.

Matt Gaetz: Background and Political Rise

Robert Draper provides an in-depth look into Gaetz’s background:

• [04:01] Robert Draper: "Matt Gaetz is from northwestern Florida... His father owned a chain of hospices that he ultimately sold in the early 2000s for something like $400 million."

Gaetz's swift transition from law practice to politics, fueled by his alignment with Trump's rising influence during the 2016 elections, is explored:

• [05:12] Sabrina Tavernise: "So this was the 2016 cycle. This is when he gets to Congress."
• [05:15] Robert Draper: "Matt Gaetz rushed to support Trump as Jeb Bush faltered in his campaign."

Gaetz’s Loyalty to Trump

Gaetz's unwavering support for Trump is a central theme. Draper emphasizes Gaetz’s role as a staunch defender:

• [07:02] Robert Draper: "Everyone was still trying to take their measure of Trump, and he did not have a deep bench of cheerleaders, but Matt Gaetz was unambiguously one of them."

Gaetz's loyalty is further illustrated through his aggressive actions:

• [08:47] Robert Draper: "Matt Gaetz led a group of about two dozen Republican members of Congress to disrupt a secure House Intelligence Committee hearing."
• [10:13] Matt Gaetz: "These must be left wingers. These are members of Antifa..."

Controversies Surrounding Gaetz

The episode delves into various allegations against Gaetz that have plagued his political career:

• Sexual Misconduct: Allegations of relationships with underage individuals.
  • [18:44] Sabrina Tavernise: "House Ethics Committee launching a bipartisan investigation examining allegations of sexual misconduct..."
• Illicit Drug Use and Misuse of Campaign Funds: Concerns about inappropriate use of resources.

Gaetz vehemently denies these accusations:

• [19:19] Matt Gaetz: "The person doesn't exist. I have not had a relationship with a 17 year old. That is totally false."

Impact on Gaetz’s Political Career

Gaetz’s controversial actions have led to significant political fallout:

• Ethics Investigation Delays: The House Ethics Committee's investigation was stalled due to election-related constraints.
  • [25:25] Sabrina Tavernise: "He resigns from the House of Representatives."

Gaetz’s resignation amid mounting pressures effectively halted the Ethics Committee's negative report, paving the way for his nomination.

Trump’s Strategic Nomination

Trump’s decision to nominate Gaetz is portrayed as a strategic move to solidify control over the DOJ:

• [26:08] Robert Draper: "Trump is not what's at issue here. That's always been unquestioned. It's instead an external signal that Trump is sending..."

Draper suggests that Gaetz's appointment signals a shift towards a DOJ that actively protects Trump and targets his opponents:

• [28:00] Robert Draper: "It will be used as a weapon... to ward off any kind of investigations into the president by the FBI or by the opposition."

Senate Confirmation Process

The Senate's response to Gaetz’s nomination is a focal point:

• [29:40] Robert Draper: "Elections have consequences. He chose Matt Gaetz. Matt will come before the committee and he will be asked hard questions..."

There's speculation about potential recess appointments, though they are deemed unlikely:

• [30:46] Sabrina Tavernise: "What if this ethics report does end up getting out... Do we think Trump might blink and say nevermind?"
• [31:32] Robert Draper: "Trump knows who Gaetz is. I don't think he will be in the least bit cowed by the prospect of unseemly contents."

Potential Outcomes and Republican Party Dynamics

The nomination poses a critical test for the Republican Party's willingness to support Trump’s choices:

• [33:27] Sabrina Tavernise: "Republicans have been paying close attention over the years to what's happened to those Republicans who have attempted to thwart Trump's will..."

Draper underscores the potential consequences for Republicans who oppose Trump:

• [33:42] Robert Draper: "...they recognize that standing up to Trump not only carries costs... but really can be a career-ending proposition."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with an analysis of the high-stakes implications of Gaetz’s nomination:

• [27:37] Sabrina Tavernisi: Emphasizes the critical timing of Gaetz’s resignation and nomination.
• [31:53] Robert Draper: Highlights the ongoing showdown between Trump’s executive ambitions and the Republican Senate’s possible resistance or compliance.

Notable Quotes:

• Robert Draper:
  • [03:52] "It must be the worst nomination for a Cabinet position in American history."
  • [26:57] "It's this where a guy goes from really, really being in a deep, dark place to a guy who may be sitting on top of the world."
• Matt Gaetz:
  • [19:19] "The person doesn't exist. I have not had a relationship with a 17 year old. That is totally false."

Implications for the DOJ and American Politics

The nomination of Matt Gaetz as Attorney General represents a pivotal moment in American politics, potentially reshaping the DOJ’s role and signaling the extent of Trump's influence over federal institutions. The confirmation process will not only determine Gaetz's future but also reflect the broader power dynamics within the Republican Party and the Senate’s stance on Trump’s leadership.

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Additional Context: Towards the end of the episode, Sabrina Tavernise touches upon President Biden’s recent authorization allowing Ukraine to use American long-range missiles against Russian and North Korean troops, indicating shifting U.S. foreign policy dynamics just two months before Trump’s expected inauguration.

Produced by: Will Reed, Michael Simon Johnson, Mooj Zaidi, and Mary Wilson
Edited by: Devin Taylor and Michael Benoit
Music by: Dan Powell, Elisha Baitup, Diane Wong, Marian Lozano
Theme Music: Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of "Trump Taps His Fiercest Ally for Attorney General," providing an in-depth look into Matt Gaetz’s controversial nomination, his unwavering loyalty to Trump, and the potential ramifications for the DOJ and American political landscape.

Transcript

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[Sabrina Tavernisi]

From the New York Times I'm Sabrina Tavernisi and this is the Daily.

[Robert Draper]

Another Trump appointment.

[Matt Gaetz]

And this is one that is probably going to surprise a lot of people.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Last week, President elect Donald Trump chose the firebrand Congressman Matt Gaetz to be his Attorney general. Blindsided, that's how many Senate Republicans feel by Donald Trump. I was shocked that he has been nominated. Trump's choice shocked Washington.

[Robert Draper]

It must be the worst nomination for a Cabinet position in American history, and.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Raised questions about whether the Senate would approve it.

[Robert Draper]

He is entitled to his nomination, but he's not entitled to a confirmation of any, literally any nominee.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Today, my colleague Robert Draper on what the nomination reveals about Trump's promise for retribution and how far Republicans are willing to go to help him get it. It's Monday, November 18th. Robert welcome to the Daily.

[Robert Draper]

Thanks for having me on.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And happy Sunday.

[Robert Draper]

You as well.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So President elect Donald Trump announced a series of pretty controversial nominations for his Cabinet last week. Chief among them was Matt Gaetz, the hard right member of Congress from Florida for Attorney General. Gates is someone you've written a lot about and we wanted to turn to you to talk about this pick of Gates and why it's so controversial.

[Robert Draper]

The pick is controversial, Sabrina, in part because of who Matt Gaetz is. He comes from what I suppose you could say is the performance art wing of the Republican Party, someone who's very adroit at getting attention, but someone who does not have an accomplished track record as a legislator. So he would seemed to be not an altogether serious pick and not a particularly qualified one as well. But he's also controversial as a pick because of the particular office, the Department of Justice, of course, he would be America's chief law enforcement officer, which is interesting and ironic given that Gates himself has been defiant of the law, has had a trail of investigations following him, both on the federal level and within Congress. And on top of that, the Attorney General has tended to be an office that operates more or less independently from the President. The Attorney General will often do things that might even offend the president, might even investigate members of the administration. So to pick someone like Matt Gates, who is an unflagging loyalist to Donald Trump, would seem to suggest that the DOJ will, under Trump's presidency, become completely co opted so that a President Trump would himself be in many ways beyond the reach of the. So all of this sets in motion a showdown between Trump and the Republican Party writ large and a test of whether or not the legislative branch will offer any kind of constraints over that authority of his.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Okay, so let's talk about who Matt Gaetz is and how he became such an important figure in Trump world. Tell me about him.

[Robert Draper]

Sure. Matt Gaetz is from northwestern Florida. He grew up in a town called Nicev. His father owned a chain of hospices that he ultimately sold in the early 2000s for something like $400 million. So a wealthy family, Very wealthy family. His father found a second career in politics. He ran for state Senate and won, ultimately becoming president of the Senate in the state of Florida. And the younger Gates, after being a high school debate champion, went on to college, then got a law degree and joined a commercial litigation firm where he stay a couple of years, but then after that joined the new family business of politics and ran for a vacant seat in the State House of Florida in 2010.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So he pretty much immediately jumps into politics after being in this law practice.

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, that's right. And then Matt Gaetz ran for the 1st congressional district of Florida, his local congressional seat, which is very conservative, very dominated by a couple of military bases. And he ran, of course, at the same time that Donald Trump was running for president.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So this was the 2016 cycle. This is when he gets to Congress.

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, that's right. Matt Gaetz was an early supporter of the former Florida Governor Jeb Bush. But it did not take terribly long before Bush was faltering in his debate performances and his fundraising and in every other way against this outsider candidate, Donald Trump. And Gates quickly threw in with him as well.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And why did he throw his lot in with Trump?

[Robert Draper]

I think for a couple of reasons, Sabrina. The first was that he was punching a winning ticket. Though Trump was an outsider, he dominated the Republican primaries and really was at the top of the polls. And so it was evident that the center of gravity within the Republican Party was moving towards Trump. Gates could clearly see that. But there was also a pugilistic streak to Trump that Gates himself, as a kind of resonant smart aleck in his high school, as a debate nerd, that he could very much identify with with. And Matt Gaetz himself, a guy who was given to sarcasm was given to insults, was given to be outside looking into the political establishment, found himself very much to be a kindred spirit of Trump almost from the beginning of Trump's presidency.

[Matt Gaetz]

Joining us now, Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz. Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz.

[Robert Draper]

Congressman Matt Gaetz.

[Matt Gaetz]

And Congressman Matt Gaetz represents the state of Florida and he joins us tonight. Congressman, thanks a lot for coming on.

[Robert Draper]

Matt Gaetz was on every conservative outlet praising everything that Trump did.

[Unnamed Republican]

I support this travel ban because I think it will enhance the security of.

[Robert Draper]

Americans from the Muslim ban.

[Unnamed Republican]

The foundation for Obamacare is crumbling, and that means we might be able to actually start on health care worthy of the great people in this country to.

[Robert Draper]

His attempts to repeal and replace Obamacare.

[Unnamed Republican]

I think if you just look at the bias on the Mueller team, these are not people in search of the truth. They are people in search of an impeachment charge.

[Robert Draper]

Everyone was still trying to take their measure of Trump, and he did not have a deep bench of cheerleaders, but Matt Gaetz was unambiguously one of them.

[Unnamed Republican]

Mr. President.

[Robert Draper]

All right, Sharp. I'm proud of you.

[Unnamed Republican]

I think we won the day, sir.

[Robert Draper]

Gaetz was frequently, as a result of this, called on the phone by Trump. President Trump would offer his thanks to Gaetz. And so it became this kind of self licking ice cream cone where Gates would say something, Trump would love it, Gates would want to please him even more, and on and on and went.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So outside of these interviews and TV appearances, were there other ways that Gates was trying to show his loyalty?

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, I think the most flamboyant example occurred in 2019 when the House Intelligence Committee was having an impeachment inquiry into to Trump's conduct towards the President of Ukraine and his apparent attempt to get President Zelensky to dig up dirt on Trump's 2020 opponent, Joe Biden. So the Intelligence Committee was having this impeachment inquiry in a secure facility in the basement of the Capitol. Classified information was being discussed. This was not something that just anybody could go into, that includes any person who has a congressperson's badge. But Matt Gaetz led a group of about two dozen Republican members of Congress to this facility, followed by a bunch of reporters.

[Unnamed Republican]

I'm gathered here with dozens of my congressional colleagues underground in the basement of.

[Robert Draper]

The Capitol, standing outside the doors of this conference room that was secure. Gates and the others proceeded to have an ad hoc press conference.

[Unnamed Republican]

Because if behind those doors they intend to overturn the results of an American presidential election, we want to know what's going on.

[Robert Draper]

In which Gates talked about how outrageous it was that this sham investigation was taking place against President Trump. And then at the very end, we're.

[Unnamed Republican]

Going to go and see if we can get inside. So let's see if we can get in.

[Robert Draper]

We're going in. He said, okay, we're going in. And they barged into the facility, effectively bringing the proceedings to a halt. And the idea that any closed hearing would be disrupted by anybody was generally unheard of. But for an actual legislator, an actual member of Congress, to storm in and start making accusations that this was some sort of deep state undertaking where they were hatching up damning testimony from scratch was without precedent, and it showed just.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

How far he was willing to go for Trump. It sounds like.

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, that's right. And another thing that I think stands out about Gates support of Trump was in the waning moments of Trump's presidency on January 6, when Matt Gaetz, far from expressing outrage that Trump had stirred up the mob that had stormed the Capitol, was questioning the composition of the mob itself and saying that these weren't Trump supporters. These must be left wingers. These are members of Antifa, the far left group that had been involved in protests, not all of them peaceful protests during the summer of 2020, for example.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And we should say was pretty much conclusively not part of the riot at the Capitol on January 6th.

[Robert Draper]

That's right. There's zero evidence to suggest that what took place at the Capitol on VI was instigated by or even that there were Antifa participants in it. But there was Gates from the get go, basically saying these couldn't be Trump supporters. So then in the days to follow the January 6 riot, there were calls to impeach Donald Trump. And while Gates did not say he should not be impeached and certainly did not say that he should be impeached, he did immediately denounce those people who denounced Donald Trump and called for his impeachment. So Gates was one of the very first people to to decry then House Republican Conference Chairwoman Liz Cheney calling for Trump's impeachment. And in fact, within a couple of weeks after Trump left office on January 20th.

[Unnamed Republican]

I love Wyoming.

[Robert Draper]

There's Matt Gaetz on the steps of the capital of Wyoming.

[Unnamed Republican]

I'll confess to you, this is my first time in Wyoming. I've been here for about an hour, and I feel like I already know the place a lot better than your.

[Robert Draper]

Misguided Representative Liz Cheney leading a protest against the congresswoman representing the state of Wyoming, Liz Cheney, and saying that she's the one who needs to be pushed out.

[Unnamed Republican]

The truth is that the establishment in both political parties have teamed up to screw our fellow Americans for generations.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

This is a very aggressive going after Trump's enemies.

[Robert Draper]

Yes, that's right. And of course, it's Matt Gaetz being clever enough, recognizing that not all the facts are in. Not to say Donald Trump absolutely did nothing wrong, but instead to say that the people who are saying that Donald Trump did something wrong are themselves wrong. So it's a kind of bank shot of denouncing denouncers. That is the sort of thing that the Lawyer League G is a specialist in.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So this is a guy who's time and time again shown that he's willing to defend Trump at all costs, which I guess answers the question of why Trump might want this guy as his Attorney General.

[Robert Draper]

That's right. I mean, Gates was essentially setting himself up as the kind of person that Donald Trump needed, someone who had his bombastic, combative style, someone who was an unflagging loyalist. That's the kind of guy a Donald Trump would want to have around. But something else is happening, too, which is that Matt Gaetz is landing in hot water, and as a result of that, needs Donald Trump at least as much as Donald Trump needs Matt G.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

We'll be right back.

[Diana Nguyen]

I'm Diana Nguyen. I'm a producer on the Daily, and I worked on an episode about how these really complicated global forces impact this one ranching family. I'm just gonna. I'm recording now. I'm just gonna record everything. I've lived in one of the most rural pockets of Texas, and I always heard ranchers say it's super hard to make a living, but I didn't really get the economics of it at all. What kind of cows are these? In making this episode, I started to understand how decades of consolidation in this industry has made it tough for the people who produce our food. It's important to me that we were able to tell this story about rural America on the Daily. We have this amazing group of producers from all over the map who are bringing their own life experiences to the stories that we tell every day. But it takes a lot of resources, and we need your support to keep doing that work. You can help us make the Daily by subscribing to the New York Times. Thank you.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So, Robert, you said that Gates needs Trump in some ways just as much as Trump needs Gates. Explain that.

[Robert Draper]

Yes. Matt Gaetz was in trouble with the federal authorities and had been, really, since 2017 or when he was a Freshman member of Congress. Here's what was taking place. Gates had become friends with a guy named Joel Greenberg, who was kind of a political gadfly with political ambitions of his own, was thinking of running for Congress and he'd collected a bunch of lobbyists and other political muckety mucks in Florida to hang out with. He would help throw these parties. And Gates began to cavort around with Greenberg and with Greenberg's friends to show up to these parties. There would be recreational drugs at these parties. There would be sex at these parties. And in addition to the lobbyists and elected officials, there would be women who were not of politics, who were there. Some of them were from an escort service and at least one of them was under the age of 18. This is what attracted the attention of the feds when Joel Greenberg was nabbed by federal authorities for a variety of things, including having sex, apparently with a 17 year old girl. Greenberg pled guilty to this offense and right away began to supply them with information to the effect that Gates was doing the same thing. So the Feds began to conduct a federal inquiry into Gates, but ultimately they dropped the case.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Why?

[Robert Draper]

And they dropped it apparently because of two things. First, that they couldn't get enough information and that the information that they could get was coming from people who might not look so great before a jury, either because they were involved in the crimes themselves or had criminal records of their own. And so it just became a heavy lift. Now this is informed speculation, Sabrina, because the reality is that the Department of Justice never announced. We are closing this case. And we are closing this case for the following reasons. So this is the best we've been able to infer from Justice's behavior. But close that they did.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Okay, so the DOJ effectively shutters its case against Gaetz. But we don't really know whether there was a crime or what ultimately was the rub there Was that the end of it.

[Robert Draper]

It was not the end of it. No. Congress picked up where the federal government left off. The major political headline. New trouble for Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz tonight already under federal investigation. Now the House Ethics Committee is also investigating its own set of allegations. There is in Congress something called the House Ethics Committee and it is a committee composed of members of both parties. It meets in secret to examine potential misconduct by sitting members of Congress. It has its own fact gathering apparatus and it's pretty deliberative. It takes a while for them to come around on their stuff. This is what happened then with the Gates matter. The House Ethics Committee began to take A look at it. Reliant to some degree on the information that the Department of Justice had already gathered. But also not limited to that the.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

House Ethics Committee launching a bipartisan investigation examining allegations of sexual misconduct, illicit drug use.

[Robert Draper]

Because there were allegations that Gates had been on the floor of the House showing videos and still photographs on his iPhone of nude women.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And whether Gaetz shared inappropriate images or videos on the House floor.

[Robert Draper]

Allegations as well that he was having a relationship with a member of his staff and as well allegations that he was using federal campaign funds for his own personal use. These were the kinds of things that were incoming for the Ethics Committee to consider.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So a wide ranging investigation with some pretty sordid allegations. How does Gates respond to all of this? Does he speak out?

[Robert Draper]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Gaetz]

So they're saying there is a 17 year old girl who you had a relationship with. Is that true? And who are they? Who is this girl? What are they talking about? The New York Times?

[Unnamed Republican]

The person doesn't exist. I have not had a relationship with a 17 year old. That is totally false.

[Robert Draper]

As Gates always does, he spoke out vociferously indicating not only that these charges were false, but that these charges were politically motivated. Though this time not by Democrats so much as by Republican leaders with whom Gates had gotten crosswise. One of them in particular, Kevin McCarthy.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And why did Gates think that McCarthy was behind this investigation?

[Robert Draper]

Those two had had problems for a while. I mean, you know, McCarthy had donated to Gates first couple of congressional campaigns, but they never liked each other. McCarthy sort of this glad hander, very much a member of the establishment. So not Gates kind of guy to begin with. And Gates for that matter as this fly in the ointment who's always coming out against Republican leadership, not McCarthy's kind of guy. When word surfaced that there was an investigation into Gates behavior by the federal government, far from Kevin McCarthy saying, I'm sure that these are unwarranted investigations. He just said those are serious implications.

[Matt Gaetz]

If it comes out to be true. Yes, we would remove them if that was the case. But right now, as Matt Gates says, it is not true and we don't have any information. So let's get all the information.

[Robert Draper]

I don't really have any comment. We'll just simply have to see what the federal government got to do. It was as lukewarm a kind statement of support as could be imagined. And Gates filed that one away. And this all comes to a head in January of 2023 when Congress convenes to elect a speaker which is a pro forma thing that usually lasts a couple of hours. So we are now in a situation where this Congress will make history. We will have at least one more vote to see who the next speaker will be in the 118th. But in this case became this protracted five day melodrama. Six votes later and the Republican majority.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Is still scrambling to pick someone, anyone, to serve as speaker of the House.

[Robert Draper]

And why was this the case? Because Matt Gaetz didn't like Kevin McCarthy. After three days and hundreds of votes cast, the House has still not elected a Speaker and was determined, if not to completely stop McCarthy from becoming speaker, then to at least drag it out.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Four days in 12th round of voting and still no speaker of the House.

[Matt Gaetz]

On Tuesday, Kevin McCarthy tried to get elected speaker, but he lost three times. But then on Wednesday, lost three more times.

[Robert Draper]

It was, it was really, really melodramatic. And it played out on national television where Gates at one point was nearly assaulted.

[Matt Gaetz]

Mediate something. Here it is getting really heated on the floor.

[Robert Draper]

McCarthy looks angry by a Republican member of Congress, Mike Rogers, who was a McCarthy ally. Stay civil. I hear someone saying, stay civil. Where Gates, at various junctures, I'm nominating Jim Jordan, nominated people, including like Donald Trump to be the speaker instead of McCarthy.

[Unnamed Republican]

Mr. Speaker, my friend from Oklahoma says that my colleagues and I who don't support Kevin McCarthy would plunge the House and the country into chaos. Chaos is Speaker McCarthy.

[Robert Draper]

And after successive balloting, McCarthy would go into a room with groups of Republicans and they would manage to get him to agree on this or that thing. For example, the allowance of a single member of Congress to call for a snap vote, known as a motion to vacate.

[Matt Gaetz]

One Democrat put it, it's like they'll have a spokesperson, but not an actual speaker in the House.

[Robert Draper]

So he was coming in as like really the weakest speaker imaginable. Meanwhile, there's Gates clearly enjoying this theater. And even as McCarthy, by the end of it all, at the end of the five day stretch, emerges victorious, really the triumph is as much Matt Gaetz as anyone else's.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Yeah, what I really remember about that whole episode between Gates and McCarthy was just the way that Gates went about it. Like he withheld his vote from McCarthy over the speakership in this very ostentatious way. It's like he was humiliating him almost. It was this incredible act of dominance, like this power move against him.

[Robert Draper]

That's right. And it was a total Trump move. And it was the kind of thing that Trump would remember as this is a guy who's Got cojones. This is a guy who will stand up to everyone.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So what became of the ethics investigation in the end?

[Robert Draper]

Well, it moved slowly, slowly, because, you know, Gates continued effectively to delay it by responding only at the last minute to inquiries and then doing so with the usual bombast being non responsive. And the Ethics Committee was having some difficulty getting traction, getting further information. So it had produced a report roughly in late July, I believe is when it did at least the best of the week tell. But there are rules in the House that govern when you can release a negative ethics report, as this one was, you can't do it close to an election. So Gates had a primary in August. They couldn't do it near then. And then Gates was facing a general election in November, so they couldn't do it then. So they kept missing all of these windows. And now suddenly it is after the election, Trump is elected president, the Republicans regain control of the Senate, continue to have control over the House, and meanwhile, there is this Ethics Committee report that's been sitting there that's understood to be highly negative and therefore very damaging, involving criminal charges that could almost certainly lead to Gates expulsion from Congress.

[Capital One Advertiser]

Wow.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So there's that bomb just kind of sitting there. What happens with it?

[Robert Draper]

Well, what happens with it is that Donald Trump. Before this can be released today, major surprises among Donald Trump's latest picks to fill his cabinet, including Matt Gaetz, a fierce and loyal defender of Mr. Trump in Congress. Now, his choice to become the next Attorney general decides on Wednesday that he wants Matt Gaetz to be his Attorney general. Trump today describing one of his strongest defenders as a, quote, deeply gifted and tenacious attorney who will end the partisan weaponization of our. And he makes this announcement and within a matter of hours, Gates resigns from the House of Representatives.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

He resigns?

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, he resigns. And in so doing, he's no longer a member of the House. And an Ethics Committee investigation into a House member is no longer pertinent. You can't, in other words, release information about someone who's no longer a member of Congress. So it would seem then that the ethics report dies the death.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So the timing is quite interesting. Right. Gates is about to be the subject of this potentially hugely damaging report could very well end his career. And then at this critical hour for Gates, Trump names him to the position that allows him to resign from the House, effectively stopping the report and becoming potentially the top law enforcement agent in the country. A role that beyond all of this potential legal trouble, he seems to be pretty unqualified.

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, I Mean, it's this remarkable zero sum moment where he goes from a guy of maximum exposure, potentially even criminal exposure, since after all, the feds did not find him not guilty, they didn't decide he was innocent, they just decided not to pursue it anymore. And so if all of these allegations surface, he's expelled from Congress, then he's himself criminally vulnerable. He goes from that to now being the nominee to be the chief law enforcement officer in the land. And so, yeah, it's this where a guy goes from really, really being in a deep, dark place to a guy who may be sitting on top of the world. Referring to Matt Gaetz.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And why do you think it is that Trump named him? Like, is it because, you know, having him on the hook, so to speak, means he would just do his bidding?

[Robert Draper]

I don't think it's that, Sabrina. I don't think that he's doing it to do a solid for Gates or to own Gates. I think that Gates loyalty to Trump. Trump is not what's at issue here. That's always been unquestioned. It's instead an external signal that Trump is sending, first of all, that he will select exactly who he wants to select. He knows how audacious a choice this is, and he doesn't care. And secondly, for this particular position, for the Department of Justice to have at the top of it, a Matt Gaetz sends a signal that, yes, I do mean good on what I said during the campaign. Campaign that I, Donald Trump, will be your. His voters retribution. That I will use the Department of Justice in exactly the way that you would imagine it would be used if Matt Gaetz were at the top of it. It will be used as a weapon. It will be used as the spear point to ward off any kind of investigations into the president by the FBI or by the opposition, and that it will be used as a means of attack against Trump's opponents, be they a sitting senator like Adam Schiff, who'd been the head of the Intelligence Committee and had brought the first impeachment inquiry. A former member of Congress, Liz Cheney, who became his most vocal Republican opponent, members of the press or any number of individuals. Matt Gaetz will be at the very top of a Department of Justice. That will be the kind of justice that Donald Trump wants justice to mean. He will redefine the concept of justice through the personage of Gates as his attack dog.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

But of course, there is a Senate confirmation process for his appointment. So what are the senators saying about his nomination?

[Robert Draper]

This one was not on my bingo card. Elections have consequences. He chose Matt Gates. Matt will come before the committee and he will be asked hard questions and we'll see how he does. Well, there's been a sort of collective grown and or statements of shock. Look, I barely know Gates. All I know is he likes picking fights on social media. He'll have to deal with that in committees. But I don't know his background. I'm going to look at it and give him a fair hearing. I think there should not be any limitation on the Senate Judiciary Committee's investigation, including whatever the House Ethics Committee. None of them has come right out and said that they would oppose it, but there's clearly some friction and clearly some kind of visceral opposition. Now, there's been some talk about the possibility of recess appointments, which would essentially mean the Senate Majority leader calling a 10 day recess and letting Trump push these nominations through without a confirmation. But right now that seems pretty unlikely. And I think that what's much more likely is that this will go to an actual vote.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

And what if this ethics report does end up somehow getting out, like either leaked or actually released? I would imagine there would be a pretty big public outcry. It's explosive. Do we think Trump might blink and say nevermind?

[Robert Draper]

It seems really unlikely that Trump is going to be in any way concerned by the release of the report, or for that matter, the content of the report. I think he's been fully briefed on what likely is in it. And Trump knows who Gates is. I don't think he will be in the least bit cowed by the prospect of unseemly contents. I think he's expecting it. I think that they'll essentially describe it as fake news by political opponents of Gates.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

So we're talking on Sunday morning. As of now, it seems likely that this is actually heading to a confirmation hearing in a Republican controlled Senate, where on the one hand Gates has a lot of enemies, but on the other, this group of Senators is pretty afraid of crossing Trump. So this sets up a pretty interesting showdown.

[Robert Draper]

It certainly does. And because it is an audacious move for Trump to pick someone who is not only unqualified for the job, it would seem, who not only is so disliked by members of his own party, but also is so encompassed. And for Trump to basically be saying to the Senate, yeah, I know he's got all those problems, I don't care, confirm him anyway is a very early test of just how willing the Republican Party is to offer any kind of check on the President elect. It cannot be emphasized enough Sabrina, the Republicans have been paying close attention over the years to what's happened to those Republicans who have attempted to thwart Trump's will prominently, Liz Cheney. And none of them wants to suffer the Liz Cheney treatment. So they recognize that standing up to Trump not only carries costs in terms of a basic discomfort, but really can be a career ending proposition. And so we'll see whether Republicans are willing to say, look, we'll give you all of these other nominations. This is just a bridge too far, or if they in essence say the bridge too far is also a bridge that we're going to be willing to give you.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Robert, thank you.

[Robert Draper]

It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Sabrina.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

We'll be right back.

[Daniel Alarcon]

After the movie Free Willy became a hit, word got out that the star of the film, a killer whale named Keiko, was sick and still living in a tiny pool in a Mexican amusement park. Fans were outraged. Kids demanded his release. I'm Daniel Alarcon. From Serial Productions in the New York Times comes the Good Whale, a story about the wildly ambitious science experiment to return Keiko to the ocean. Listen to new episodes on Thursdays. Want early access to the whole show? Subscribe to the [e-mail] podcasts to listen on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

[Sabrina Tavernisi]

Here's what else you should know today. On Sunday, for the first time, President Biden gave Ukraine permission to use America and long range missiles to hit targets inside Russia. The weapons are likely to be employed against Russian and North Korean troops in defense of Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region of western Russia, an area that Ukraine invaded in a surprise move in late October. Biden's authorization was a major change in U.S. policy and comes just two months before President elect Donald Trump takes office. Trump has vowed to limit support for Ukraine. Today's episode was produced by Will Reed, Michael Simon Johnson, Mooj Zaidi and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Devin Taylor and Michael Benoit. Contains original music by Dan Powell, Elisha Baitup, Diane Wong and Marian Lozano and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Katie Edmondson. That's it for the Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See tomorrow.