Trump vs. the Pope

Summary

---

The Daily: "Trump vs. the Pope"

Date: April 16, 2026
Host: Natalie Kitroeff
Guest: Motoko Rich (NYT Vatican correspondent, reporting from the papal trip in Africa)

---

Overview of the Episode

This episode explores the most direct and unusually public clash in modern history between a sitting U.S. president and the Pope. As President Trump and Pope Leo XIV, the first American Pope, engage in a growing and highly visible dispute—primarily over the moral justification of the ongoing war with Iran—reporter Motoko Rich joins from the papal plane in Africa to break down how the fight escalated, why it matters, and what it reveals about American politics, global Christianity, and the tension between faith and power.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Setting the Scene: The Papal Trip Amidst Crisis

• Motoko Rich is traveling with Pope Leo XIV on his first papal visit to Africa, arriving in Cameroon during a tense feud with the Trump administration ([01:53]).
• While African crowds are jubilant about the Pope’s visit, the inner Vatican circle is fixated on the rift with the American president ([02:11]).

Origins of the Rift: Anticipated Tensions and War

• From Pope Leo’s election—being an American—there were questions about whether he would confront Trump, especially given his predecessor Francis's open criticism of Trump ([03:09]).
• The tension turns into open disagreement after the start of the U.S.-Iran war. The Pope issues increasingly pointed calls for peace that the White House reads as condemnation ([04:49]).

Quote:

"War began against Iran, the Pope has increasingly been making more pointed comments." (Motoko Rich, [03:25])

Escalation: Religion, War, and Political Messaging

• Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth publicly asks Americans to pray for military victory “in the name of Jesus Christ,” an unusually religiously overt statement for a U.S. official ([05:54]).
• The Pope responds in a Palm Sunday homily, pointedly saying Jesus does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war ([06:45]).

Quote:

“Jesus does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war. ... What we do and do not do in Jesus' name.” (Pope Leo XIV, paraphrased by Motoko Rich, [06:45])

The Breaking Point: Direct Confrontation

• President Trump threatens to “annihilate the civilization of Iran” on social media ([07:59]).
• The Pope unusually calls on citizens of all nations to petition their governments and legislators to stop the war, directly rebuffing Trump’s language ([08:08]).

Quote:

"To call for the annihilation of a civilization is unacceptable." (Pope Leo XIV, paraphrased by Motoko Rich, [08:08])

The President's Attack Goes Public

• Three top American cardinals appear on national television supporting the Pope and condemning the war ([09:08]).
• Trump responds with a sharply personal social media post, calling the Pope “weak on crime,” a “tool of the radical left,” and even dragging in the Pope’s family ([10:04]).
• Motoko describes the scramble among journalists to get the Pope’s response just before a flight ([10:29]).

Quote:

“He was not afraid of the Trump administration. ... I will continue to speak out loud against war.” (Pope Leo XIV, via Motoko Rich, [11:22])

The Pope’s Style and Its Impact

• While Trump’s attacks are typical for American politics, Pope Leo’s usually mild manner underscores the significance of his firm stand ([13:45]).
• Leo has tried to unify Catholics, extending gestures to conservatives, and largely avoided political confrontation—until now ([14:18]).

Quote:

“The fact that someone who rarely does this suddenly does it, I think it really does stand out.” (Motoko Rich, [14:13])

Trump’s AI Jesus Image and Widespread Outrage

• Trump posts an AI-generated image depicting himself as a Jesus-like figure, sparking widespread outrage beyond just Catholics—evangelical Christians and global leaders condemn it as blasphemous ([18:14]-[19:55]).
• Trump later claims it was him as a doctor, not Jesus; no one present seems to believe that ([20:17]).

Quotes:

“That is blasphemy in its purest form.” (Various commentators, [19:53])
“He’s mocking him … God will not be mocked.” (Various, [20:02])

Vice President Vance and Catholic Politics

• VP J.D. Vance, himself a Catholic convert, publicly challenges the Pope’s authority on the morality of war, referencing WWII as a “just war” ([21:08]).
• Vance argues the Pope should stay out of political and military matters, even lecturing him on Catholic theology—an extraordinary reversal ([22:44]).

Quote:

“If you’re going to opine on matters of theology, you’ve got to be careful. You’ve got to make sure it’s anchored in the truth.” (VP Vance, [22:32])

The Pope’s Broader Position and American Identity

• Pope Leo’s argument: this war is not a “just war” and innocent lives must have a defender ([23:33]).
• Leo’s American-ness makes him harder to dismiss—he knows U.S. culture and politics, increasing his influence in the American context ([27:59]).
• He subtly returns to unifying themes and disciplined messaging, avoiding further escalation ([29:00]).

Quote:

"He is the most recognized Christian leader on earth ... and so to have him counter ... so forcefully is very powerful and perhaps threatening." (Motoko Rich, [27:14])

Unique Dynamics: Power, Populism, and Spiritual Authority

• Trump cannot pressure or intimidate the Pope as he might with other world leaders—the Pope is not an elected politician and has no fear of electoral consequences ([33:34]).
• The Pope’s consistent focus on peace and unity places the administration on the defensive, especially as they frame the war in religious terms ([26:25]).

Quote:

"He can't make him so unpopular that voters vote him out. So this is a unique situation." (Motoko Rich, [33:34])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps):

• “This is an incredibly important pastoral visit. And yet ... this huge rift ... due to some very public attacks by the president on social media.” — Motoko Rich ([02:11])
• “To call for the annihilation of a civilization is unacceptable.” — Pope Leo XIV, paraphrased, ([08:08])
• “He was not afraid of the Trump administration ... and will continue to speak out loud against war.” — Motoko Rich, relaying the Pope’s response ([11:22])
• “That is blasphemy in its purest form.” — Various Christians, reacting to Trump’s AI Jesus image ([19:53])
• “If you’re going to opine on matters of theology, you’ve got to be careful. You’ve got to make sure it’s anchored in the truth.” — VP Vance ([22:32])
• “He is the most recognized Christian leader on earth ... to have him counter what is one of their chief arguments so forcefully is ... threatening.” — Motoko Rich ([27:14])

---

Segment Timestamps (approximate):

• [00:37–02:11]: The scene in Cameroon; mood among Vatican officials
• [03:09–04:33]: Early tensions between Trump and Pope Leo; war with Iran as the catalyst
• [05:48–06:45]: Pete Hegseth’s remarks; Pope’s pointed Palm Sunday response
• [07:59–08:45]: Trump escalates via social media; Pope’s unusually direct appeal
• [09:08–10:23]: American cardinals take a public stance; Trump’s follow-up attack
• [11:22–12:33]: Pope Leo’s in-flight response to direct questions; assertion of moral voice
• [14:13–15:23]: Explanation of why Leo's mild style makes his statements powerful
• [18:14–20:02]: Global and religious reaction to Trump's AI Jesus image
• [21:08–22:44]: VP Vance’s public theological rebuke to the Pope
• [23:33–24:54]: Pope’s likely response; difference between just war and war of choice
• [27:14–27:59]: The Pope’s influence as a global and American Christian leader
• [29:00–30:36]: Leo’s disciplined, above-the-fray messaging
• [33:34–34:29]: Unique dynamic: Pope cannot be intimidated by Trump

---

Key Takeaways

• Historic Confrontation: This is one of the most unusual and public showdowns ever between a U.S. president and the Pope, made more significant by Leo’s dual status as both American and the Catholic leader.
• Unprecedented Stakes: The dispute is as much about moral legitimacy for war as it is about religious authority and American political polarization.
• Backlash and Outrage: Trump’s attacks—especially his AI Jesus image—sparked outrage across religious lines, alienating even portions of his own religious base.
• Limits of Political Intimidation: Unlike most political opponents, the Pope’s position and style make him uniquely immune to Trump’s normal tactics.
• Broader Implications: With over 50 million U.S. Catholics and 1.4 billion worldwide, the Pope’s stance carries significant weight not just spiritually but politically.

---

Final Reflections

Host Natalie Kitroeff sums up that while Trump’s tactics are familiar in political brawls, Pope Leo’s calm, disciplined, yet forceful moral stand presents an unusual and perhaps insurmountable challenge to Trump’s desire for religious sanction of his administration’s actions. The episode closes considering the global and American political implications of such a stark rift.

---

Transcript

[Advertisement Voice]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card Spring always feels like a reset, clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need. Apple Card is built with that same idea in mind. No annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees. No fees, period. Get started and apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74%, based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their Variable APR in the Wallet app [e-mail] Apple Card issue by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] from

[Natalie Kitroeff]

the new York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroweff. This is the Daily. An unusual disagreement has broken out between the president of the United States and the Pope this week. After President Trump lashed out at him, Pope Leo XIV openly took on the administration, setting up the most direct confrontation between a head of state and the Pope in modern history. Today, my colleague Motoko Rich explains why Trump cares so much about what the Pope thinks and why it matters that two of the most powerful Americans in the world are so deeply at odds. It's Thursday, April 16th. Motoko, you have just embarked with the Pope on this tour of several African countries. You are traveling on the papal plane with him surrounding by top Vatican officials at this really tense moment in which the American president is attacking the first American Pope. So just set the scene for me. Where are you and what is the feeling right now among the papal entourage?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, we're on the third day of Pope Leo's first trip as pope to Africa, and we just came from Algeria and landed this afternoon in Cameroon. And I'm currently in the capital of Cameroon in a hotel. You might hear a little background because I'm in the press center because that's where the best wi fi is.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Got it.

[Motoko Rich]

The mood here, it's an interesting mix because of course, the people who are waiting for the Pope's visit are super excited. Like we were driving on the road from the airport to the hotel. We were just seeing tens of thousands of people lining the road. So for them, this is an incredibly important pastoral visit. And yet in the bubble of the papal plane, there's this great awareness of this huge rift that has opened up between the Pope and the president of the United States due to some very public attacks by the president on social media and then following up by the vice president in various interviews. And this is a particularly stunning moment because this Pope has, during most of the first year of his papacy, been very mild mannered and attempted to create a sense of unity. He's not been confrontational. And yet on Monday, we saw him kind of fight back.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Okay, let's get into the whole story of this rift. Walk us through how it started.

[Motoko Rich]

So from the moment that Pope Leo was elected, because he was the first Pope from the United States, there was some expectation, is he going to be sort of the anti Trump Pope? Francis predecessor had been perceived as this more left leaning Pope.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Right.

[Motoko Rich]

He had famously gone up against Trump in a number of ways in terms of calling him not Christian, going to the border of Mexico to meet with migrants. So there has been precedent for a rift between a previous pope and the president. But Pope Leo is really making an effort to kind of things down. So he would make very generalized comments, speaking out against war, speaking on behalf of peace, speaking on protection for the environment. But then a sense that he might have some ideological differences with the president. In the same way that Francis had started to creep in when he talked about migrants, he encouraged the US Council on Bishops when they condemned the president's migration policies. And then as he has spoken out about war, it has been perceived by the Trump administration as more and more a direct attack. And certainly after the war began against Iran, the Pope has increasingly been making more pointed comments.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

What I hear you saying is that there was some latent tension bubbling in the background between the Pope and the Trump administration before this moment, but. But that the war sounds like it was a turning point. So how did that unfold so soon

[Motoko Rich]

after the war began? The Pope started making comments.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

Brothers and sisters, I'm praying, I'm following with deep concern what's happening in the Middle east and Iran in these dramatic

[Motoko Rich]

moments, which could sound general but could also sound pointed, about the need to return to dialogue, abhorrence for war, the need for peace.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

Ask all the parties involved. To take up the moral responsibility to end the spiral of violence before it becomes an irreparable chasm.

[Motoko Rich]

And I think that started to be perceived by the Trump administration as potentially a direct attack. But he was not naming either President Trump or any other member of the Cabinet. But then Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, may

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

Almighty God continue to bless our troops in this fight. And again to the American people, please pray for them.

[Motoko Rich]

Exhorted the American public every day on bended knee to get down on bended knee and pray for military victory. And he said, I think in the name of Jesus Christ, with your family

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

in your schools, in your churches, in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

We should say that that is a pretty unusual thing to say for a Defense Secretary. You know, the administration has given all kinds of different goals and justifications for this war. But that comment did stand out.

[Motoko Rich]

Absolutely, because, you know, in the United States we talk about separation of church and state. So for a high ranking government official to invoke a particular religious figure to justify an American war is highly unusual.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

Questo e il nostro dio Jesu re del.

[Motoko Rich]

And then the Pope responded where in a homily on Palm Sunday, the week before Easter, he said that Jesus does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war. And he talked about, you know, what we do and do not do in Jesus name. So he was clearly disagreeing with what Pete Hexseth was saying.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Do you think that Hegseth's words invoking God in this way may have provoked him to be more outspoken than perhaps he would have been?

[Motoko Rich]

Obviously, I can't know what is going on inside the head of the Pope, but we know that peace is a top priority for this Pope. And he has talked consistently about how he opposes war. His Christmas message, his message to the cardinals at the opening of the year, all of them carried very strong anti war messages. So this is not coming from nowhere. But I think you're right that once Pete Hegseth invoked the name of Jesus Christ in asking for a victory for the American side, he was basically saying he was asking God to take sides. I think that really upset the Pope.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Okay, so the Pope responds with this homily. Things are starting to ratchet up. When do we get to the breaking point here?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, then a week later, the President threatened to annihilate the civilization of Iran overnight.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Right. This was in a truth, social post.

[Motoko Rich]

Yes, absolutely. And in response to those remarks, the Pope became clearly much more direct. He said to call for the annihilation of a civilization is unacceptable. And he even exhorted citizens in concerned countries to call their congressmen, call their political leaders, and call for the end to war and all wars. And so that seemed pretty extraordinary. This was no longer kind of generally, peace be with you, we must end all wars. This was really responding to the particular language of the President.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

He seems to be starting to really wade in here to the fray.

[Motoko Rich]

Yes, absolutely. So it definitely felt like the tension was ratcheting up. And I think maybe some people were kind of waiting to see at this point whether the President would lash out, because it's sort of not at all extraordinary. For the President to lash out against his opponents. But there didn't seem to be a response. But then, is this a just war?

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

No, under Catholic teaching, this is not a just war.

[Motoko Rich]

This past Sunday, three very high ranking cardinals from the United States. So that means high level leadership of the Catholic church went on 60 Minutes and they underscored completely the Pope's anti war message.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

We're dehumanizing the victims of war by turning the suffering of people and the killing of children and our own soldiers into entertainment.

[Motoko Rich]

You called it sickening.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

It is sickening.

[Motoko Rich]

So we of course, don't know if that is what set off the President. But in Rome, we all woke up early in the morning getting ready to board the flight. And instead what we saw was this truth social post that the President had posted literally minutes before we were all waking up, where he attacked the Pope as weak on crime and a tool of the radical left.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Right. I remember this post was very long. He called him terrible on foreign policy. There were a lot of insults in it.

[Motoko Rich]

Yes, it went on and on. I mean, you did have to click on read More to see the whole thing. And it was very specific. He even talked about how he preferred his brother. The Pope has two brothers, one of whom apparently is a Trump supporter and visited the White House after his election. So it was a very extraordinary attack on the Pope.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Okay, this post is up. You are about to get on the plane with the Pope. What happens?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, of course we were all shocked by this because we were planning, you know, do we have our vaccines, do we have our malaria pills, do we have enough clothes to get through an 11 day trip? And rather, now it's suddenly become a story all about Trump v. Leo. And at the airport, we're all talking, how can we get the Pope to comment on this? Because traditionally, the protocol on the plane is that the Pope comes back, makes a few nice welcoming remarks, and then he walks the and shakes the hand of each journalist. And the convention is that we don't ask him questions during that moment. It's more about just making small talk and meet and greet. But of course, this moment was an opportunity we didn't want to lose. Once he started walking up and down the aisles, many of us asked him questions about his response to that truth social post.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

And I have no fear, neither the Trump administration nor speaking out loudly about the message of the gospel he was

[Motoko Rich]

not afraid of answering. He opened up by naming him and saying he was not afraid of the Trump administration. He made it very clear who he

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

was responding to don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the Gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing. And I will continue to speak out loud against war.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Right. This was a pretty forceful response. And I remember when I saw it, the thing that struck me was actually what he said about how someone had to stand up for all these innocent people who were being killed. It was almost like he was sort of taking the mantle of moral authority and saying, this is my position. This is what I'm here to do.

[Motoko Rich]

Absolutely. I mean, I think he said something along the lines of, this is what I'm here to do. This is my job to speak about the Gospel's teachings. And one of the things that he has said all along is that as Catholics and as humans, we should all stand up for the most vulnerable among us. So he's very clearly sees himself as an important moral voice in the world.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

But on the other hand, I know this was extraordinary in your world, but in the context of American politics in 2026, I have to say the Pope's comments, they sound pretty mild overall. We're used to flamethrowers. And so I'm wondering, why is this such a big deal?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, I think part of it is that he's not a flamethrower. That Pope Leo is, unlike Francis, not someone who's necessarily eager or willing to engage in fights just for the sake of it. I mean, I don't think that's a totally fair assessment of Francis's personality. But he was very colorful. He was willing to be pointed and barbed and speak off the cuff and make dramatic gestures. And, you know, frankly, that was one of the conservative criticisms of him, was that they thought he was more performative than anything else. And Leo is the direct opposite of that. He is very quiet. He's very mild mannered. He sticks to his prepared remarks. This is not necessarily someone you think of as spontaneous, always up for a fight. And so the fact that someone who has that reputation and temperament is willing to say the things that he said, that he's not afraid of the Trump administration, that he's speaking up for the people who are most vulnerable at a moment when he's been attacked, he's sort of not taking the bait. In a way, I think that almost makes his speech more powerful. It's certainly a contrast. Like, if someone is always doing this, it's hard for it to stand out. But when someone who rarely does this suddenly does it, I think it really does stand out.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

And it's worth saying, right, that the Pope is also extremely popular.

[Motoko Rich]

Absolutely. I think he was very shrewd, if you will, at the beginning of his papacy that he took his time. He didn't make a lot of broad gestures, but some of the gestures he did actually endeared him to the conservatives who had been alienated by Francis. So on the moment when he came out on the balcony, he was wearing the red mozzetta, this cape that Francis never wore. So that showed he was respectful of the papal traditions. HE SPEAKS LATIN he allowed one of the more conservative United States cardinals to mass in Latin and St. Peter's Basilica. I mean, that's the heart of the Roman Catholic Church right there. So he's really kind of extended an olive branch to the conservatives. He showed that he doesn't want to be partisan within the Catholic Church, much less in politics.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

He's been a uniter among Catholics. Whereas Francis was willing to kind of say provocative things, Leo has been much more interested in smoothing things over with conservatives who didn't take kindly to some of Francis. More unorthodox.

[Motoko Rich]

Absolutely. He seems to really take seriously that he is the Pope for everyone, and that's why he speaks to everyone. So given that he's not been a partisan pope thus far, that is why when he actually went up against Trump, that it really felt like a very significant moment. So, as if things were intense enough, we land and we turn on our phones and we see that the President has now posted an AI generated image of himself that clearly looks like he's trying to appear as Jesus Christ.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

We'll be right back.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

Before we had AT&T business wireless coverage, our delivery GPS wasn't the most reliable. Once our driver had to do a 14 point turn to get back on route. A 14 point turn. An influencer even livestream the whole thing. Not good for business. Now with AT&T business wireless, routes are updating on the fly and deliveries are on time. And the influencer did get us 53 new followers though. AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.

[Advertisement Voice]

Savor mornings with Nespresso Vertuo up and make your coffee ritual irresistible. With the Nespresso Coffee plus range with added ingredients, it's easier than ever to brew coffee your way over ice or milk Milk at the click of a button. Shop now [e-mail] this podcast is brought

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

to you by Avocado Mattress. And if healthy, comfortable sleep matters to you, this is one organic brand worth knowing. That's because what you sleep on actually matters.

[Advertisement Voice 2]

Most mattresses rely on synthetic foams and chemical materials that trap heat, break down over time or off gas. Avocado does it differently. Their mattresses are handcrafted with natural materials, organic latex, organic wool and organic cotton designed to be naturally cooling, incredibly supportive and long lasting. They're certified organic by Gotts and meet multiple non toxic and safety certifications made for people who care about their health and the environment without sacrificing comfort. I love that Avocado proves you don't have to choose between comfortable, supportive sleep and your values. And now during our Earth Month sale, you can get up to 15% off avocado mattresses. Just go to avocadogreenmattress.com get up to 15% off at avocadogreenmattpress.com avocadogreenmattrush.com

[Natalie Kitroeff]

let's talk about the reaction to all of this to Trump's attacks on the Pope, the Pope's response, and then this very provocative image that Trump posts of himself as a Jesus figure.

[Motoko Rich]

So I think the response to President Trump's attack on the Pope, certainly from Catholics, was pretty outraged. They thought this was very inappropriate for the President of the United States to attack who they consider to be the Vicar of Christ, the leader of their church, a spiritual leader who should be above all politicians. There was certainly a lot of pushback from around the world, even including from Iran, saying that this was unacceptable and rude. Prime Minister Meloni of Italy said that Trump's attack on the Pope were completely unacceptable. So there's definitely been pushback around the world, not just among the Catholic faithful, but political leaders as well. As for the image that President Trump posted after attacking the Pope, he looked like he was trying to look like Jesus Christ. He's got a light in his hand, he's blessing a patient who looks very sick and there's light radiating out of the patient's head and it looks like he's up in heaven with these very angel like figures in the sky. I want to show you an image

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

that President Trump posted on his Truth Social yesterday. What do you make of this? That's disgusting.

[Motoko Rich]

And this really sparked outrage. And that outrage seemed much broader. It was not just Catholics who were upset about it, but many, many Christians, including evangelical Christians.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

As a Christian, I was very offended.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

That's a disgrace. I mean, how egotistical can you possibly be? I'm ashamed that he would actually do that.

[Motoko Rich]

The man I voted for and trusts,

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

Jesus Christ, is my Lord and Savior. And that right there is, I mean That's. I don't really have words for that.

[Advertisement Voice]

I thought that was blasphemy.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

That is blasphemy in its purest form.

[Motoko Rich]

There seemed to be a much broader sense that this was bordering on sacrilegious, not just inappropriate or unacceptable.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

You're mocking my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He's mocking him. It shows a flippancy towards what's really essential in important about our relationship with God. And God will not be mocked.

[Motoko Rich]

Mr. President, did you post that picture of yourself depicted as Jesus Christ?

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

Well, it wasn't depicted. It was me.

[Motoko Rich]

I did post it, and I thought

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

it was me as a doctor.

[Motoko Rich]

President Trump, it should be said, claimed that he did not think that he was trying to make himself look like Jesus, but that he was trying to look like a doctor who helped people

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

and had to do with Red Cross

[Motoko Rich]

as a Red Cross worker there, which we support.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

But he said it was a picture of him as a doctor.

[Advertisement Voice]

What?

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Yeah. I was wondering what the people that you're surrounded by right now on this papal trip made of that argument by Trump. Did they buy that?

[Motoko Rich]

No. I have not heard anyone who thinks he looks like a doctor. I think everyone got the images alluding to him as a Jesus figure.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Okay, so I want to ask about a particular group of Catholics, and that is the Catholics inside the Trump administration, and particularly about J.D. vance, the Vice president, the most prominent Catholic in the administration. What has he said?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, that's where the surprise continues.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

So, as a Catholic, what does it feel like to be, you know, in the middle of that? I thought I was gonna get easy

[Motoko Rich]

questions, and it looks like the administration really is doubling down on its antagonistic approach to the pop.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

But he said that God is never on the side of those who wield the sword.

[Motoko Rich]

He seemed like he was almost schooling the Pope on Catholic theology and making an argument about the theory of a just war.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

How can you say that God is never on the side of those who wield the sword? Was God on the side of the Americans who liberated France from the Nazis? Was God on the side of the Americans who liberated Holocaust camps and liberated those who had survived the Holocaust?

[Motoko Rich]

And clearly the vice president, as has the president, are trying to argue that the attack on Iran is a just war in a Christian sense, not just in a political or moral sense.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

You know, each of us has our own role. I'm the vice president, United States. The Pope's job is to preach the gospel.

[Motoko Rich]

And then he said that the Pope should just stick to matters that concern the church.

[Various Interviewees/Commentators]

I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology. If you're going to opine on matters of theology, you've got to be careful. You've got to make sure it's anchored in the truth.

[Motoko Rich]

And that's one of the things that's peculiar for the vice President of the United States, a recent convert to Catholicism, to be trying to lecture the Pope, who has been a Catholic all his life and is the leader of the Catholic Church, on Catholic theology. But that seems to be what he is doing.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Right. It is kind of stunning to hear any politician try to tell the Pope how to speak about theology. I do think that Vance's argument here, if I understand it, is that, look, this war is moral. He specifically said, you know, wouldn't the Pope have blessed American fighters, liberating France from the Nazis? I'm wondering, what do you think the Pope's response to that? I know you're not inside his head, but help me understand what you think his position is.

[Motoko Rich]

I think the Pope would likely say something like, this war does not qualify as a just war in that he is joined by many global leaders who say this is a war of choice, not a war of necessity. There isn't a sense that the war is actually about liberating innocent people. And the Pope has made the point, someone needs to speak up for the innocent people who are getting killed in this war.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

And has the Pope weighed in on the argument that this Iranian regime has been extremely repressive toward its own people and that regime change would benefit them, that that's what the Trump administration is trying to do?

[Motoko Rich]

I don't know if he's directly weighed in on that point, specifically about Iran, but more broadly, he's not saying that he's against just moral actions. He's just saying he's against war. So he keeps emphasizing dialogue as a way to get to the goals. It doesn't seem like he's saying, who cares about the protesters? Who cares about the nuclear weapon? It's just saying there are other ways to get to these goals.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

And what about Vance's claim that this is just not the Pope's realm to engage in politics? Obviously, this is the Pope weighing in on a war, not on the US Midterms, for example. But what do you make of that criticism?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, I think in some respects, this probably is a fair criticism for a politician or a government leader to say, don't meddle in our internal decisions. We're sovereign nation, and the Vatican City is Also of a sovereign state, by the way. But I think in this case, the way the Pope views it is that it's a very fundamental principle of Christianity. We are the peacemakers. And so I think the Pope takes that very seriously. The Trump administration, on the other hand, seems to want to keep up the fight, or it almost seems like they're trying to persuade the Pope. The president posted again on social media that someone should tell Leo about the 42,000 protesters who've died in Iran. Those are not verified numbers, as far as I know, but it's not like he's just sort of saying, oh, Pope Leo is lame, he's weak on crime again. He's really making an argument which I think is a slight shift in tone, it seems.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Yeah, it does seem like they really care about how this war is perceived and about ensuring that it's perceived as just morally and in every other way.

[Motoko Rich]

Well, they're certainly trying to make a case to persuade the American people this is not just about religion. This is clearly something that's happening on the political realm as well. But inasmuch as the Pope is the leader of a group that represents something like over 50 million people in the United States identify as Catholic, I think the last figures show their important constituency for the President.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

We've talked on the show Motoko about how the justifications for this war from the Trump administration have been a little all over the place. A lot of the messaging has basically been, we are trying to cause as much damage as possible in Iran, we are winning, et cetera. But to the extent that they have invoked moral justification to the American public, it has been tied to religious and specifically Christian values. Trump invoked this Easter miracle when that airman was rescued in Iran. Hegseth told people to pray, as you said. And so I wonder if there is some real impact for the administration of having that argument be countered so forcefully by the Pope.

[Motoko Rich]

He is the most recognized Christian leader on Earth. That is a fact. There are other Christian leaders ahead of the Anglican Church, but he is the most recognized. In fact, I think it's probably fair to say that maybe aside from the Dalai Lama, that he's the most recognized spiritual leader on Earth. And so to have him counter what is one of their chief arguments for going to war so forcefully is very powerful and perhaps threatening.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

How much do you think it matters that Pope Leo is an American? Like, how much of a factor do you think that is for Trump as he thinks about how to respond and as he processes this active and ongoing criticism?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, I Think the fact that Pope Leo is from the United States makes it difficult for the administration to discount his views. They cannot, like as they might with Pope Francis or any. Any other previous pope, say, look, this guy just doesn't get us. We're different, or this is how American politics works. They can't really say that with this Pope because he's from the United States. He was born in Chicago. He's from the Midwest, the heartland. This is a guy who deeply understands partisan politics in the United States. He's much harder to dismiss.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

What about for the Pope himself? I know when Pope Leo first became Pope, there was this worry about whether his Americanness would drag him into politics in a way that. That would be ugly and unseemly, not something the Church wanted. And now here we are, we've arrived at that point, it seems. So do you think he is considering his American identity when he thinks about how to respond?

[Motoko Rich]

Well, like I said, I can't be inside the Pope's head. And he has famously told the press corps that every time you think you know what I'm thinking, you don't. That being said, how can it not be part of his thinking as a human being? He comes from the United States. His family is there. However, I do think he's already showing signs of how he reacts, which is he said what he had to say on the plane on Monday, but he did come back to talk to us on the flight from Algiers to the capital of Cameroon, and he did not take questions this time. He did not walk the aisles, but he talked about how much joy he had had in the visit in Algiers, and he talked about being in a majority Muslim and being in a place where we could learn the lessons of unity, of respecting difference, of living together in peace. He definitely used that word. So I think that he's sort of returning to his oblique style, where he talks about his primary values, that he is gonna let that speak for itself.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

He's not taking the bait. You're saying to once he's been dragged in, stay there in the muck. He's trying, it sounds like, to rise above again.

[Motoko Rich]

I mean, it's only been a few days, so I don't want to read too much into that. But this was a moment where we were wondering, is he going to address these comments? The Pope could have responded, but he didn't.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

In politics, by the way, that's called message discipline, which is not something Trump has displayed very often.

[Motoko Rich]

If there's one word we can use about Pope Leo, it is definitely Disciplined.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

You know, it strikes me that, that in that whether Pope Leo likes it or not, he is a very obvious foil for Trump. This may not be something he wanted to claim, being the anti Trump, but now it seems like maybe he can't avoid it.

[Motoko Rich]

I think whether he likes it or not is absolutely accurate, that most likely he does not. Again, I sound like I'm speaking for him, but that is what people who surround him, that is how he's behaved from the beginning, that he didn't want this role. But how one is perceived as a leader is also important. And I think he is aware of that. And so if the moment has called him to play this role, he seems willing and certainly not afraid of stepping into it.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

From everything that you said, Motoko, in describing the trajectory of this rift between the Pope and the president, it definitely seems as though Trump in this case rolled out his typical playbook for dealing with anyone who criticizes him. You know, he called the Pope names, he accused him of literally the exact thing that you would expect him to accuse a political opponent of being weak on crime, for example. This is like his go to move for a Democrat. But Pope Leo is not that. He's the leader of 1.4 billion Catholics around the world who view him as the representative of Jesus on Earth. And the fallout is reflective of that.

[Motoko Rich]

Definitely. He's not a politician. He's elected for life, and he's not a leader of a particular country. I mean, inasmuch as he's head of state of Vatican City, that's not really his role, his role primarily as leader, as you said, of these 1.4 billion Catholics around the world, and they're in every country. I'm sure he thinks about wanting to be a leader for everyone rather than someone who is dividing the Catholic Church. I think he also, I think it is fair to say that he is first and foremost a religious leader. That is his job. That is his role. That is his calling. And so politics is something that sometimes happens to him as much as that he is engaging in. In some ways, the fight has been unavoidable, not because he sought it out, but because he's been consistent in the values that he preaches, and he really sticks to his message about peace and unity and using dialogue. That message seems to have triggered the Trump administration, which really craves the approval of a Christian leader to justify their actions. And the fight has come to him.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Right. It seems like no matter how much Trump wants the Pope's approval, he's finding that he can't intimidate this Pope to change his position like he can with many other global leaders.

[Motoko Rich]

Right. I mean, I think a lot of global leaders up until very recently have tried to appease the President in some way by negotiating or compromising or watering down their actual opinions to keep him from getting angry because he has the power to retaliate in tariffs or withdrawing support or aid. He doesn't really have that power over the Vatican. He can't unseat this leader. He can't make him so unpopular that voters vote him out. So in some ways, this is a unique situation in that this is not a leader that can be intimidated, as you say, and he has shown himself personally as speaking forcefully and saying he's not afraid.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Well, Motoko, thank you so much. Good luck on the rest of the trip.

[Motoko Rich]

Thanks so much.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

On Wednesday, the chairman of the U.S. bishops Doctrine Committee pushed back against Vice President Vance's comments about the Pope, noting that just wars are those waged in defense against an aggressor, and saying that when Pope Leo speaks, he is not merely offering opinions on theology, he is preaching the gospel. We'll be right back.

[Advertisement Voice]

Life is full of distractions like this clarinet solo. But you don't have to put up with distractions in your photos. With distraction removal, Adobe Photoshop can automate automatically delete unwanted elements like wires and people. We're working on the clarinet. Try [e-mail] hi New York Times.

[Motoko Rich]

I would be very interested in having separate logins for a shared subscription. I'm 35 years old. I still share my parents New York Times subscription. I think if my teenagers were to have their own logins we could share articles. It doesn't let us play the same

[Natalie Kitroeff]

games as each other.

[Motoko Rich]

I play the stoku. I do the crossword. I do the spelling bee. I do the wordle.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Please help.

[Motoko Rich]

Having our own accounts would be amazing. My mom could save her own recipes. My friends could save their recipes. I want to get the weekly newsletter

[Natalie Kitroeff]

but they seem to always go to

[Motoko Rich]

my husband and then he doesn't forward them to me. We both love cooking. I'm a 30 minute and under dinner girly. My boyfriend is very elaborate. I think him having his own profile would be great. We love the New York Times and we would love to love it individually. Listeners, we heard you introducing the New York Times Family Subscription. One subscription. Up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out [e-mail] family.

[Natalie Kitroeff]

Here's what else you need to know today. The s and P500 hit a record high on Wednesday. It was a sign that Wall street is pretty optimistic that a permanent peace deal in Iran is going to be reached soon. The benchmark stock index is widely watched across the world as an indicator of just how healthy the US Market really is. The S and P had already erased all of the losses that it took during the war in Iran, and after Wednesday's gains, it's actually 2% higher than it was before. The fighting started in late February, and senior Pakistani mediators arrived in Tehran on Wednesday for talks aimed at shoring up the ceasefire between the US And Iran before it expires next week. Since the initial talks ended without a deal on Sunday, the two sides have continued to exchange messages through Pakistan. They have yet to agree to another round of negotiations, but White House press secretary Caroline Levitt said the administration felt optimistic that a deal could be reached. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lynn, Michael, Simon Johnson and Jessica Chung. It was edited by Chris Haxel and Paige Cowett. Contains music by Elisheba itup and Pat McCusker. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for the Daily. I'm Natalie Kitrowet. See you tomorrow.