
For months, President Trump and Attorney General Pam Bondi suggested that they would expose the hidden, potentially sinister truth about Jeffrey Epstein’s death in 2019. But over the past few days, the Trump administrationWhite House decided to shut down has poured cold water on the conspiracy theories surrounding the financier. Glenn Thrush, who covers the Justice Department for The Times, explains what happened.
Loading summary
Tracy Mumford
Hey, I'm Tracy Mumford. There is a lot happening right now. The Headlines podcast from the New York Times will catch you up on the latest in 10 minutes or less. We'll take you inside breaking news and big investigations from the Times newsroom. Plus bring you the stories that make you go, huh? Whoa, I didn't know that. Listen to our show, the Headlines every weekday morning wherever you get your podcasts.
Glenn Thrush
Foreign.
Michael Bavaro
From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is the Daily Today, the story of how the conspiracy theories surrounding Jeffrey Epstein made their way to the highest levels of the Trump administration and why, over the past few days, the White House finally decided it was time to shut them down. My colleague, Glenn Thrush takes us inside the saga. It's Wednesday, July 9th. Hey there, Glenn.
Glenn Thrush
Hello.
Michael Bavaro
Thank you for joining us. 17 minutes late.
Glenn Thrush
Well, you know, you're lucky it wasn't 20.
Michael Bavaro
I know you're on deadline, so thank you for making time for us. You're welcome, Glenn. We don't think of President Trump and those around him as people who declaratively and definitively kill off conspiracy theories, especially when those conspiracy theories are popular with their supporters. Quite the contrary. And yet that's what has just happened. So tell us that story.
Glenn Thrush
Well, look, on Monday, they tried to slam the door on an investigation they themselves had opened. The Justice Department, in a pretty detailed memo, confirmed what a bunch of other investigations had already shown. There was no client list of shadowy Jeffrey Epstein clients that conspired to murder him. And they released a bunch of videotapes that showed what had already been revealed in other investigations, that he died by suicide. The problem with all this is that most of the people involved in running these investigations, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, Kash Patel at the FBI, Dan Bongino, his deputy, had over the years suggested that there was something nefarious that was being covered up by the Biden administration and that they were the ones who were gonna get to the bottom of this.
Michael Bavaro
Right. Thus that phrase you just invoked, that this was the White House trying to slam a door that they themselves had kicked open, which is a very tricky piece of business. So tell us that in fuller detail, really, the birth, the life, and what is now the attempted death of this uniquely Trumpian conspiracy theory surrounding Jeffrey Epstein and how it ultimately enmeshes so many senior members of the Trump administration.
Glenn Thrush
So this is all born out of a death. Jeffrey Epstein is found in his cell, hanging right. In July 2019, the medical examiner determines that it was a suicide. The Bureau of Prison determined determines the same. The Department of Justice concurs. The investigations which took place under the Biden administration found no evidence of anything nefarious in his death. But really, almost from the start, it snowballs into something much bigger. Jeffrey Epstein is one of the most connected guys in the world. His death occurs under really weird circumstances in a totally dysfunctional prison. There are gaps in the narrative. It is very hard for people to accept that it was what it appeared to be, which is a distraught man who had been convicted and accused of monstrous crimes had just taken his life.
Michael Bavaro
Right.
Glenn Thrush
Sex trafficking, sex trafficking with minors, possession of pornography. Just the worst possible crimes in our society. What happens then over the next few years is these doubts begin to grow and grow and grow alongside the right wing populist movement. I look at it as sort of the Swiss army knife of conspiracies. On one hand, it shows this cabal of incredibly powerful men who are hanging around a guy who was sex trafficking minors. Bill Clinton was on his plane. Members of the British royal family were on his plane. Bill Gates hung out with Epstein. That really feeds the fever swamps of conspiracy theorists who formed the good part of Trump's far right coalition, that there is this international cabal of people who are making decisions and covering up monstrous crimes.
Tracy Mumford
I want to see Epstein's list.
Michael Bavaro
I want to see the list of.
Tracy Mumford
The sexual misconduct slush fund. Release the files.
Michael Bavaro
Release the files. For once, it would be nice to see the federal government forced to tell the truth about something.
Glenn Thrush
And this became a central core of the argument made by many Trump supporters that the Justice Department and FBI were corrupt, engaged in covering up information to protect their allies, and needed to be overhauled. So on one hand, it fed into sort of the emotional force of the Trump coalition that they were overturning a corrupt establishment. On the flip side, it enabled people who have claimed that they needed to take radical steps to overhaul and root out deep state influences in federal law enforcement gave them a justification for doing so. So it has been an extraordinarily central element of the Trump coalition. Hmm.
Michael Bavaro
So this becomes a totem of you cannot trust your justice system. People inside that system, presumably Democrats, liberal leaning people, they are using the justice system to protect their own. That's the distilled version of this theory.
Glenn Thrush
Remember, this is coming at roughly the same time he's being targeted by the Justice Department. And so this dovetails with this larger sense that Trump and his supporters have, that the government, which is being controlled by Democrats, is coming after them. So by the time the 2024 campaign rolls around. The Epstein case is baked into the Trump base. Everybody associated with Trump working around him who wants to come back to power with him really needs to embrace this cause. And the focal point becomes this mythical client list, this roster of the rich and powerful who were somehow in on the Epstein conspiracy.
Michael Bavaro
Just to say by client list clients of, of what exactly?
Glenn Thrush
In general, it's the group of rich and powerful older men who are on the sex trafficking list. But it's also been expressed as people who've flown on the plane with Epstein. Really, the belief that there is a spreadsheet or a list in a book that enumerates this club of people who are both morally bankrupt and enormously powerful and are overseeing a cover up.
Michael Bavaro
That's the claim.
Glenn Thrush
The theory is that such a list exists and it's really the holy grail of the Epstein conspiracy. So two people who become really vocal about that theory are Kash Pat, a first term Trump official who goes on to become one of his loudest campaign surrogates, and Dan Bongino, a former Secret Service agent from Long island who hosts a popular podcast. Dan Bongino, welcome to the Bongino Brief.
Michael Bavaro
I'm Dan Bongino. What the hell are they hiding with Jeffrey Epstein? What do Clinton Obama officials, big money leftists, a former prime minister of Israel. Why do they want to make this Jeffrey Epstein story go away so bad?
Glenn Thrush
So Bongino, speaking on his own podcast, suggested that there were a lot of these people on the list who had stories to tell about how this conspiracy was formed.
Michael Bavaro
And there may be some stories to tell about the activities of those rich, famous and powerful people and some underaged women that they should not have been around at all. And definitely not around in the manner that some of my sources tell me. You getting what I'm saying?
Glenn Thrush
And Keshe Patel pushes it even further by singling out Bill Gates. You don't think that Bill Gates is lobbying Congress night and day to prevent the disclosure of that list?
Michael Bavaro
What the hell are the House Republicans doing?
Glenn Thrush
They have the majority.
Michael Bavaro
You can't get the list.
Glenn Thrush
Put on your big boy pants and.
Michael Bavaro
Let us know who the pedophiles are. And of course, when Donald Trump becomes president, Trump once again wins the 2024 election. He puts both Bongino and Patel in positions of pretty extraordinary authority inside the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Glenn Thrush
Exactly, Michael. And he makes Patel director and he inserts Bongino as Patel's number two. And what's extraordinary about this is they have less experience in those jobs than anyone else who has ever occupied them. And the justification for putting them in, despite lack of experience, is that there are all these conspiracies and cover ups going on, and only an outsider untainted by the bureaucracy has the guts and power to rip everything apart.
Michael Bavaro
That's kind of fascinating. In other words, only the kind of people who would embrace and promulgate conspiracy theories are qualified to get inside the government and get to the bottom of them.
Glenn Thrush
Bingo.
Michael Bavaro
Well, so what happens once these people, the Bonginos, the Patels, having embraced this conspiracy theory, end up in these positions of power in which they can actually investigate them? What do they do?
Glenn Thrush
Patel and Bongino jumped into the FBI at a time of crisis when there were mass firings and huge instability. So they really had to focus on stabilizing.
Michael Bavaro
Right. Trump was busy firing all his perceived enemies inside that bureau.
Glenn Thrush
Yeah. So Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, who, remember, was an emergency second pick when Matt Gaetz went down in flames, eager to please President Trump, raises her hand and says, I'm gonna take care of this. So she goes on Fox, the DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.
Michael Bavaro
Will that really happen?
Glenn Thrush
And when she's asked about the Epstein client list, she says, it's sitting on.
Tracy Mumford
My desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing.
Glenn Thrush
She says, I have all these files on my desk.
Tracy Mumford
A lot of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot, a lot of information.
Glenn Thrush
And the very next day, I'm here at the White House.
Michael Bavaro
I just met with Attorney General Pam Bondi.
Glenn Thrush
Bondi shows up at this meeting of MAGA influencers. A lot of them were Epstein conspiracy theorists. And hands out these big, thick white binders.
Tracy Mumford
It says on the front, the Epstein files. Phase one, by order of Attorney General Pamela Bondi and FBI Director Cash Patel.
Michael Bavaro
See that right there? That's the Epstein files.
Glenn Thrush
And for a moment, all these people sitting around this room think we finally got it.
Michael Bavaro
There's so much to tell you. All I can say is promises made, promises kept.
Glenn Thrush
We're finally gonna get the truth about Jeffrey Epstein. So then they flipped open the binders and, man, were they disappointed.
Michael Bavaro
We'll be right back.
Glenn Thrush
Foreign.
Tracy Mumford
I'm Kate Kelly. I'm an investigative correspondent covering money and influence for the New York Times. I remember a story that I worked on. There was a conspiracy theory about this event. At the time, I thought, that can't be true. That seems extreme. So I went about the reporting. I did a whole ton of interviews And I wrote a draft of the story, but there was a little part of me that thought, you don't quite have this. So I went back out and did some more reporting, digging into that little piece that was bugging me. And it turned out the conspiracists were essentially right because I had that extra time. And I was willing to be surprised. I think I got the right story and was able to deliver that to our readers. So I'm really grateful that that open mindedness is there in me, but is also shot through our institution where the editor will say, yeah, take another two weeks and get it right. If this kind of independent journalism is important to you, you can support it. And the coverage that I do by subscribing to the New York Times.
Michael Bavaro
So, Glenn, what ends up being inside of those thick white binders that Attorney General Bondi has handed out to these MAGA influencers?
Glenn Thrush
Not much.
Michael Bavaro
It's mostly procedural jargon, heavily, heavily redacted.
Glenn Thrush
It was a big dud. No client list, not even manifest necessarily from the planes. It was a lot of stuff that had already been in the public domain. So there was this huge backlash against Bondi in particular for having over promised.
Tracy Mumford
We're all waiting for bombshells. We're all waiting for juicy stuff. And that's not what's in this binder. That's not what's in this binder at all.
Michael Bavaro
It is the biggest disappointment, I think, that you'll find.
Glenn Thrush
So she first responds by blaming the.
Tracy Mumford
FBI Director Patel is going to get us a detailed report as to why the FBI withheld all of those documents.
Glenn Thrush
Okay. And blaming prosecutors in other offices for slow walking this, which turned out not necessarily to be true.
Tracy Mumford
And a source had told me where the documents were being kept. Southern District of New York. Shock.
Glenn Thrush
Then what happens is Bondi displayed dispatches a bunch of prosecutors from the National Security Division at the Justice Department who are otherwise involved in high level international investigations out to this facility in Virginia to go through videotape and files to see if there's anything in them.
Tracy Mumford
The FBI, they're reviewing. There are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children or child people.
Glenn Thrush
Who are supposed to be looking at terrorism investigations. Foreign influence are looking into a case of a guy who had died more than half a decade prior.
Michael Bavaro
And do you suspect, Glenn, that she's doing this because she actually thinks they're going to find something or because she thinks I need to say that I did this?
Glenn Thrush
In baseball it's called running out the ground ball. She needs to show that she's making a maximum effort. And so does Patel, who's also dispatching dozens and dozens of FBI agents, some of them pulled off of other cases to do the same thing.
Michael Bavaro
So a sizable portion of the United States federal law enforcement apparatus is devoting itself to what the federal government itself has already said is a nothing burger.
Glenn Thrush
Absolutely. Meanwhile, on the outside, the pressure just keeps building and building and building. And because folks in Trump's MAGA base can't blame him for doing a bait and switch, they focus on federal law enforcement, particularly Pam Bondi. Laura Loomer, who's never liked Bondi, thought that she was too liberal to be in her job, starts calling for her resignation. So Patel and Bongino, who are both wise in the ways of Trump politics, are seeing this happening in real time, and they want to minimize the damage, so they go on Fox. You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it, and they give a very uncomfortable interview. Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion.
Michael Bavaro
But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's been in the Metropolitan Detention center, who's been in segregated housing, you know a suicide.
Glenn Thrush
When you see one.
Michael Bavaro
And that's what that was.
Glenn Thrush
Bongino says with a very stern countenance. He killed himself.
Michael Bavaro
Again, you want me to. I've, I've, I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.
Glenn Thrush
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself. Nothing to see here.
Michael Bavaro
Hmm. And they're now doing a 180 from where they were before, because there was once a moment where fanning this conspiracy theory was to their benefit, to Trump's benefit. Suddenly now it's not.
Glenn Thrush
It had become a liability because they couldn't meet the expectations they themselves had stoked.
Michael Bavaro
And so, Glenn, I think that brings us to this week when the administration sends out this memo where we started our conversation, saying, officially, there's nothing to see here. There is no conspiracy. There's no evidence of a conspiracy. Move on from everything you're saying. The White House does this because this conspiracy theory is starting to threaten to eat its own leaders. Bondi, Bongino, Patel. And so the answer to a question that has in many ways loomed over the Trump world for a really long time, which is, when will the president and those around him kill off a conspiracy? The answer to that is when it undermines their own authority and their ability to do their jobs.
Glenn Thrush
Donald Trump views his political positions as changeable, and he uses this kind of conspiracy theory to provide energy Almost rocket fuel for his own movement. And when it no longer suits his purposes, he's willing to move on. There was a Cabinet meeting on Tuesday and he was asked about the closing of the Epstein investigation. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking. We have Texas, we have this, we have all of the things. And are people still talking about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable. And he basically said, why is anyone still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? And Bondi essentially said the same thing. So the word from the top now is that the Epstein case is closed and people need to move on.
Michael Bavaro
I'm curious what you think the lesson here will be for these three top Trump officials who really did get burned by this experience. Bondi, Bongino, Patel.
Glenn Thrush
It's one thing to be on the outside when you can say whatever you want. There's no responsibility for proving anything. It's another when you have to actually run the organization. You've spent years and years beating up and accusing of coverups. It only takes an instant for the outsiders to then turn on you. And I think that's what Pam Bondi is learning, that's what Kash Patel is learning, and that's what Dan Bongino is learning.
Michael Bavaro
Right. When you write a conspiracy theory about basically the deep state to power, you very much run the risk, and this seems to be what happened here, of becoming, in the eyes of those who believe in the conspiracy theory, the deep state itself.
Glenn Thrush
That's right. In a sense, this is what happens when outsiders become insiders. They have the responsibility for running the institution, even an institution that they've attacked and have claimed as corrupt. The day to day responsibilities that these people are bearing forces them to accept realities that folks outside the wall don't have to. So the whole thing is kind of an interesting paradox. On one hand, they may have done the right thing institutionally, they may have ultimately stood on the path of truth here, but they've weakened their own position in the movement that elevated them. By contradicting these conspiracy theories, they've incurred the wrath of the people who put them in power. Trump's base.
Michael Bavaro
Well, Glenn, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
Glenn Thrush
Thank you.
Michael Bavaro
We'll be right back.
Tracy Mumford
This podcast is supported by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Cathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist, along with their guests, analyze economic developments and bring context to conversations around stocks. Fixed income the economy and more. Download the latest episode and subscribe@schwab.com oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
Michael Bavaro
Here's what else you need to know. Today, the Supreme Court said that President Trump can move ahead with plans to slash the federal workforce and dismiss dismantle federal agencies without input from Congress. The ruling could result in job losses for tens of thousands of workers. The ruling is Trump's latest victory before the Supreme Court as he tries to expand his power and reshape the federal government. And on Tuesday, President Trump issued some of his harshest criticism to date of Russian leader Vladimir Putin, implying that Putin could not be trusted in negotiations to end the war in Ukraine.
Glenn Thrush
We get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin for you want to know the truth? He's very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless.
Michael Bavaro
The remarks came a day after Trump reversed course and said that he would supply Ukraine with more US Weapons to fend off Russia, something that Putin has sought to prevent. Today's episode was produced by Ricky Novetsky, Rachel Banja and Carlos Prieto. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Patricia Willins, contains original music by Alicia Ba? Itube and Roe Niemisto and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsvork of Wonderley. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balaro. See you tomorrow.
Tracy Mumford
This podcast is supported by BetterHelp. Workplace stress is now a leading cause of declining mental health, with 61% of the global workforce feeling it more than ever.
Glenn Thrush
You can't escape work, but you can.
Tracy Mumford
Take small steps to care for yourself.
Glenn Thrush
A walk, some sun, a favorite song.
Tracy Mumford
Therapy is one of those stepsongoing support to build resilience for whatever your day throws at you.
Glenn Thrush
Balance is tough.
Tracy Mumford
Getting help shouldn't be. Visit betterhelp.com thedaily for 10% off your first month.
Summary of "Trump’s Top Aides Spread the Epstein Conspiracy. Now They Are Trying to Kill It"
The Daily
Release Date: July 9, 2025
Host: Michael Barbaro, Rachel Abrams, and Natalie Kitroeff
In this compelling episode of The Daily titled "Trump’s Top Aides Spread the Epstein Conspiracy. Now They Are Trying to Kill It," host Michael Barbaro delves into the intricate web of conspiracy theories surrounding Jeffrey Epstein and their entanglement with the highest echelons of the Trump administration. Co-host Glenn Thrush provides an in-depth analysis of how these theories, once leveraged for political gain, have now become liabilities for key Trump officials.
The saga begins with the mysterious death of Jeffrey Epstein in his jail cell in July 2019. Official reports from the medical examiner, the Bureau of Prisons, and the Department of Justice unanimously concluded that Epstein died by suicide. However, Epstein's extensive connections to influential figures—such as Bill Clinton, members of the British royal family, and Bill Gates—fuels widespread skepticism and conspiracy theories about potential foul play and hidden client lists.
Glenn Thrush [02:53]: "There was no client list of shadowy Jeffrey Epstein clients that conspired to murder him."
Contrary to expectations, elements within the Trump administration, particularly Attorney General Pam Bondi, FBI Director Kash Patel, and Deputy Dan Bongino, initially promoted the conspiracy theories surrounding Epstein's death. They posited that there was a vast, interconnected network of powerful individuals protecting their interests by covering up Epstein's activities.
Glenn Thrush [05:15]: "It fed into the emotional force of the Trump coalition that they were overturning a corrupt establishment."
Kash Patel and Dan Bongino emerged as vocal proponents of the Epstein conspiracy. Bongino, a former Secret Service agent and podcast host, frequently questioned the official narrative, suggesting that significant undisclosed information existed.
Dan Bongino [08:16]: "What the hell are they hiding with Jeffrey Epstein? ... Let us know who the pedophiles are."
Patel went further by specifically naming influential individuals like Bill Gates, alleging their involvement in obstructing the disclosure of Epstein's client list.
As the 2024 election approached, the Epstein conspiracy became integral to consolidating Trump's far-right support base. The looming presence of such theories provided a rallying point, reinforcing the narrative that a corrupt "deep state" was undermining Trump and his allies.
Glenn Thrush [07:48]: "The theory is that such a list exists and it's really the holy grail of the Epstein conspiracy."
In a pivotal moment, Attorney General Pam Bondi promised access to the elusive Epstein client list. She distributed thick white binders labeled "The Epstein Files" to key MAGA influencers, sparking hope that the definitive evidence of the conspiracy was finally available.
Tracy Mumford [11:36]: "I just met with Attorney General Pam Bondi."
However, upon reviewing the binders, it became evident that the contents were largely procedural, heavily redacted, and offered no new revelations. This led to widespread disappointment and backlash against Bondi for overpromising and underdelivering.
Glenn Thrush [13:45]: "Not much. It was a big dud."
Following the disappointing reveal, Bondi and Patel shifted blame towards the FBI and other prosecutorial offices, alleging that these institutions were intentionally withholding crucial information to protect their allies. This tactic aimed to sustain the momentum of the conspiracy theories despite the lack of tangible evidence.
Tracy Mumford [14:28]: "The FBI, they're reviewing. There are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children."
As mounting pressure and the inability to produce the anticipated evidence persisted, the administration officially distanced itself from the conspiracy theories. A memo released by the White House declared that there was no evidence supporting the Epstein conspiracy, signaling a strategic retreat to preserve institutional integrity.
Glenn Thrush [17:31]: "The word from the top now is that the Epstein case is closed and people need to move on."
President Trump's public stance mirrored this shift, expressing frustration over the continued focus on Epstein and signaling a desire to prioritize other political issues.
President Trump [18:28]: "Why is anyone still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?"
The abrupt reversal had significant repercussions for the key figures who had championed the conspiracy theories. Bondi, Patel, and Bongino found themselves at odds with the very movement that had elevated them, leading to diminished influence and credibility within the MAGA base.
Glenn Thrush [19:25]: "They have the responsibility for running the institution, even an institution that they've attacked and have claimed as corrupt."
This situation underscores the peril of insider officials who advocate for conspiracy theories—their positions become untenable when confronted with institutional realities that contradict their previously held beliefs.
The episode highlights a fascinating paradox where officials like Bondi, Patel, and Bongino, who once leveraged conspiracy theories to gain political capital, ultimately found themselves undermined by the very narratives they propagated. The Epstein conspiracy, once a robust tool for rallying support and delegitimizing federal institutions, became a liability when the promised evidence failed to materialize, forcing a strategic retreat by the administration.
Glenn Thrush [20:17]: "On one hand, they may have done the right thing institutionally, they may have ultimately stood on the path of truth here, but they've weakened their own position in the movement that elevated them."
This episode serves as a cautionary tale about the volatility and risks inherent in politicizing unverified conspiracy theories, especially when those theories become foundational to maintaining a political base.
Glenn Thrush [02:53]: "There was no client list of shadowy Jeffrey Epstein clients that conspired to murder him."
Glenn Thrush [05:15]: "It fed into the emotional force of the Trump coalition that they were overturning a corrupt establishment."
Dan Bongino [08:16]: "What the hell are they hiding with Jeffrey Epstein? ... Let us know who the pedophiles are."
Tracy Mumford [11:36]: "I just met with Attorney General Pam Bondi."
Glenn Thrush [13:45]: "Not much. It was a big dud."
Tracy Mumford [14:28]: "The FBI, they're reviewing. There are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children."
Glenn Thrush [17:31]: "The word from the top now is that the Epstein case is closed and people need to move on."
President Trump [18:28]: "Why is anyone still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?"
Glenn Thrush [19:25]: "They have the responsibility for running the institution, even an institution that they've attacked and have claimed as corrupt."
Glenn Thrush [20:17]: "On one hand, they may have done the right thing institutionally, they may have ultimately stood on the path of truth here, but they've weakened their own position in the movement that elevated them."
This summary encapsulates the critical elements of the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened while retaining the depth and nuance of the original discussion.