What Warren Buffett Understood About Capitalism

Summary

Summary of "The Daily" Episode: What Warren Buffett Understood About Capitalism

Released: May 7, 2025 | Host: Michael Barbaro | Author: The New York Times

In this insightful episode of The Daily, Michael Barbaro engages in a comprehensive discussion with financial journalist Andrew Ross Sorkin about Warren Buffett’s impending retirement from Berkshire Hathaway and his profound understanding of capitalism. The conversation delves into Buffett's investment strategies, his critiques of the capitalist system, and the legacy he leaves behind as one of the most influential investors in history.

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1. The Announcement of Warren Buffett's Retirement

The episode opens with the monumental news of Warren Buffett’s decision to retire as CEO of Berkshire Hathaway, a conglomerate he transformed into a $1 trillion powerhouse. Andrew Ross Sorkin recounts witnessing this historic moment firsthand.

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [01:46]: "It was a remarkable moment, really. Just the end of an era in the world of capitalism."

Buffett made this announcement during Berkshire Hathaway's annual meeting, affectionately dubbed "Woodstock for Capitalists," attracting over 40,000 attendees from diverse backgrounds worldwide.

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2. The Berkshire Hathaway Annual Meeting: A Capitalist Pilgrimage

Sorkin paints a vivid picture of the annual meeting's atmosphere, emphasizing its unique appeal across generations and geographies. Attendees range from students like 14-year-old Dorcas Tang to seasoned investors, all united by admiration for Buffett.

• Michael Barbaro [03:22]: "What advice do you have for young investors who are looking to develop their investment philosophy?"

Buffett's ability to inspire such devotion is highlighted, showcasing his unparalleled influence in the investment community.

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3. Warren Buffett: The Investment Maestro

The discussion shifts to Buffett’s investment philosophy, which has garnered him immense respect and success. Initially adopting a "cigar butts" strategy—buying undervalued, struggling companies—Buffett, influenced by his business partner Charlie Munger, evolved to focus on acquiring and nurturing robust businesses for long-term growth.

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [10:17]: "He had a business partner named Charlie Munger who told him, this is not the way, the way you're going to make real money long term is to buy good businesses, hold them, own them and grow them."

Buffett's portfolio boasts iconic companies like Coca-Cola, American Express, and Apple, solidifying Berkshire Hathaway’s position as one of the world's largest and most cash-rich corporations.

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4. The Conscience of Capitalism

Sorkin introduces the concept of Buffett as the "conscience of capitalism," a title that underscores his ethical approach to business and investment. Unlike many of his contemporaries, Buffett lives modestly despite his immense wealth, fostering trust and admiration among investors and the public alike.

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [08:23]: "I think Warren Buffett really is today the conscience of capitalism. And let me just say, I don't mean to suggest for a moment that he doesn't believe in capitalism. He would tell you that he is a card carrying capitalist."

Buffett's down-to-earth lifestyle, exemplified by living in the same house since 1958 and driving his own car until recently, distinguishes him from the stereotypical billionaire image.

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5. Critiques of Capitalism and Financial Systems

Buffett is vocal about the flaws within the capitalist system, particularly criticizing Wall Street bankers and hedge funds. He warns investors to be cautious of financial advisors who may not have their best interests at heart.

• Warren Buffett [15:43]: "You do not want to ask an investment banker what he thinks the earnings are going to be in five years or something he's trying to sell."

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [16:30]: "He would tell you that the S and P has outperformed most hedge funds after fees."

Buffett advocates for long-term, value-based investing over short-term speculative strategies, often recommending index funds like the S&P 500 for their superior long-term performance compared to hedge funds.

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6. Taxation and Philanthropy

Buffett's stance on taxation and philanthropy further cements his role as a moral compass in capitalism. He has consistently advocated for higher taxes on the wealthy and has pledged to give away his fortune through initiatives like the Giving Pledge.

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [19:53]: "He is famous for wanting higher taxes on the wealthy, including himself."

Despite his tax advocacy, Buffett faces criticism for Berkshire Hathaway's tax-efficient structure, which allows the company to retain profits without annual taxation—an area where some perceive a disconnect between his personal beliefs and corporate practices.

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7. Balancing Critique and Practice: Buffett’s Complex Legacy

While Buffett champions ethical investing and transparency, he is not without flaws. Critics highlight instances where his business decisions may contradict his public stances, such as Berkshire Hathaway’s tax strategies and initial resistance to diversity initiatives.

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [21:43]: "He has talked about a lot of important social issues in the country, but he was never an advocate, for example, of DEI."

Nonetheless, Buffett remains a pivotal figure in educating the public about the intricacies of the financial system, urging investors to adopt informed and ethical investment practices.

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8. Motivations and Legacy

In exploring Buffett’s motivations, Sorkin suggests that Buffett is driven more by a desire to educate and mentor than by grandiose visions to reshape the world. His commitment to philanthropy and ethical business practices serves as a living testament to his beliefs in the integrity of capitalism.

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [26:32]: "He wants to be a successful role model of how a business could work on a long term basis and... how capitalism can work when it's done in the best of faith."

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Notable Quotes

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [06:21]: "He is without question the most successful investor in America."

• Warren Buffett [04:24]: "Tomorrow we're having a board meeting...the time has arrived where Greg should become the chief executive officer of the company at year end."

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [17:14]: "Don't invest your money with a hedge fund."

• Warren Buffett [16:58]: "Believe me, people don't become a genius just because you walk into some office and it says hedge funds on the door."

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [24:27]: "He will tell you over and over again there's no better way to do it."

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Conclusion: Buffett’s Enduring Impact on Capitalism

Warren Buffett’s retirement marks the end of a significant chapter in American capitalism. Through his ethical investment practices, public critiques of financial systems, and dedication to philanthropy, Buffett has left an indelible mark on both the investment world and societal norms. Andrew Ross Sorkin concludes that Buffett’s legacy lies in making investors smarter and, by extension, contributing to the betterment of the capitalist system.

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This episode offers a nuanced exploration of Warren Buffett’s philosophies and practices, presenting him as both a titan of investment and a moral guide within the capitalist framework. For listeners seeking to understand the intricate balance between wealth accumulation and ethical responsibility, this discussion provides valuable insights drawn from one of the most respected figures in finance.

Transcript

[Michael Barbaro]

Hey, I'm Robert Vinlowen. I'm from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to people about wordle and the wordle Archive. Do you all play wordle? I play it every day. All right. I have something exciting to show you. It's the wordle Archive.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What? Okay, that's awesome.

[Michael Barbaro]

So now you can play every wordle that has ever existed. There's like a thousand puzzles. What? Wordle Archive.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh, cool. Now you can do yesterday's wordle. If you missed it, New York Times.

[Michael Barbaro]

Game subscribers can now access the entire Wordle archive. Find out more at nytimes.com games. Subscribe by May 11to get a special offer from the New York Times. I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the Daily. A few days ago, the most successful investor in history, Warren Buffett, said he would retire as CEO of Berkshire Hathaway, the conglomerate that he built into a $1 trillion colossus. Today, my colleague Andrew Ross Sorkin, on his front row view of the man who both personified and critiqued American capitalism. It's Wednesday, May 7th. Okay, shall we?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm gonna be old and put my glasses on.

[Michael Barbaro]

Mine were already on. I guess I'm old. Okay. Andrew, thank you for being here.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Thanks for having me.

[Michael Barbaro]

You were actually in the room when Warren Buffett broke the news to the world that he was going to be retiring. Can you set that scene for us?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It was a remarkable moment, really. Just the end of an era in the world of capitalism. But let me just take a full step back, if I could, to explain.

[Warren Buffett]

Everyone will please take their seats?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We're at the annual meeting of Berkshire Hathaway, which is really known as Woodstock for capitalists.

[Michael Barbaro]

Tremendous phrase.

[Warren Buffett]

This is my 60th annual meeting, and it's the biggest, and I think it'll be the best yet.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And every year, 40 something thousand people descend on Omaha, making a pilgrimage there. And these are people from all over the world, all walks of life. My name is Ravi Panida. I was born in communist Albania. My name is Jackie Han. I'm from China. My name is Benjamin Graham Sanderson from Pasadena, California. Warren, thank you for all you do. And you get people from California and New York. You get people from China.

[Michael Barbaro]

I'm dorcas tang. I'm 14 years old. My father brought me here for two consecutive years.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You get people bringing their kids so they can see it. You see business school students, and you see grandparents, and it is across the board. My question is for all of us, but it's probably especially for the younger people in the room, the importance. They literally sit for hours as Warren Buffett takes questions from the audience. There is no other corporate annual meeting in the world where this happens.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what advice do you have for young investors who are looking to develop their investment philosophy?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

They may be everything from how he invested last year.

[Michael Barbaro]

You mentioned Coca Cola and American Express being Berkshires.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Some little detail about a unit inside of Berkshire.

[Michael Barbaro]

Do you know and believe in Jesus Christ and have a personal relationship with him?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I'm an agnostic to whether he believes in God. One of the big questions repeatedly is.

[Warren Buffett]

Does all that mean you are semi retired?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Or if not, please explain, when are you going to retire?

[Warren Buffett]

I've been semi retired for decades and.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Of course he would never say when, but we all were waiting and waiting. And so this year I got there on that Saturday morning and something felt different. And then we get to about 12:54 in the afternoon and he says, with.

[Warren Buffett]

That, I should say that I'm getting a section that says 5 minute warning, exclamation point. 5 minute warning, exclamation point.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So I'm getting a message that we have a five minute warning. And the second he said that, I knew.

[Warren Buffett]

Tomorrow we're having a board meeting of.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Berkshire and I'm looking in the front section. All of a sudden everybody's sort of looking at each other. And literally without any almost notice, he.

[Warren Buffett]

Says the time has arrived where Greg should become the chief executive officer of the company at year end. And I want to.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's about time that his successor succeeds him and that he steps away at the end of the year.

[Michael Barbaro]

What was the reaction?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I mean, people are tearing up and everybody starts to stand and clap and this, the standing ovation could have gone on for I don't know how long.

[Warren Buffett]

Okay, drink your Coke and calm down.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And it really felt like the end of an era.

[Michael Barbaro]

So there are gonna be listeners who hear you describing this reaction and think it's crazy and think it's a little bit out there. And so I think we need to talk about how it is that a CEO could inspire the kind of decades long devotion and in this moment, emotion that occurred. It's totally singular. It's reserved for, you know, popes and musicians, the occasional actor. And I want to know what you make of it and also kind of how you wrap your head around it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He is without question the most successful investor in America. He has made more money and has a better track record than just about anybody. And just to put this in context, if you had invested $100 with this man in 1965, when Buffett bought control of Berkshire, that would be worth $2.8 million today.

[Michael Barbaro]

Yeah, that's unfathomable.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

$100 to $2.8 million. And so many of the people in that room went on that ride with him, or wished they could, or hope.

[Michael Barbaro]

That someday they will. Right?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's the obvious reason that so many people look to Warren Buffett in this very unique and special way. But the truth is, I've been grappling with his role for a long time. And specifically on Saturday, actually, after the news broke, I got a call from an editor who said, hey, would you think about writing about Buffett? Maybe you can try to capture this idea that he is the avatar of American capitalism. And I sort of sat there thinking to myself, I don't know if that's totally right. I don't know if he is the avatar of capitalism as we know it today.

[Michael Barbaro]

Why not?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Because in so many ways, he actually sits outside of it. He sits apart from the system that we know, the corporations that we know, the ideas around wealth that we know. And in many ways, as I contemplated it, I think Warren Buffett really is today the conscience of capitalism. And let me just say, I don't mean to suggest for a moment that he doesn't believe in capitalism. He would tell you that he is a card carrying capitalist. And I think he may even have a business card in his wallet that.

[Michael Barbaro]

Says that, lest there be any doubt.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What I mean is that he has a moral code and he has approached his business in a particular way that has engendered a unique level of trust, not just among his investors, but among the public, among policymakers, in a way that is so very different from the way most people think about business today.

[Michael Barbaro]

I want to dissect that phrase, conscience of capitalism. It's a pretty loaded phrase, and I want to have us talk about the two elements of it. The first, conscience clearly suggests a kind of corrective influence over capitalism. The other, capitalism suggests, as you just got at a pretty open embrace of free markets. So let's start with the easier of those two, which is the capitalism. Few people clearly have practiced capitalism as wildly, successfully as Buffett. So just remind us how he does that. The model of capitalism that gives us this company, Berkshire Hathaway.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So the fascinating thing about Buffett is he comes out of school and decides to be what's called a value investor, which means he's looking for companies that are undervalued. And his initial approach is this idea that he's going to buy what he used to call cigar butts. This idea that he was going to buy cheap, almost failed companies that had one more puff in them. And he had a business partner named Charlie Munger who told him, this is not the way, the way you're going to make real money long term is to buy good businesses, hold them, own them and grow them.

[Michael Barbaro]

Cigars with many puffs in them.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Exactly. And that's what he did. And he did it remarkably. And over the years, he has assembled this collection of assets that he owns. Everything from Burlington Northern, the train company, to Fruit of the Loom, to Duracell, the battery company, to See's Candies. You know, he owns hundreds of these type of businesses. And then on top of that, he owns stakes in some of the biggest iconic companies. Coca Cola, American Express, and he is the largest owner of Apple.

[Michael Barbaro]

Wow.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And this one time textile business, Berkshire Hathaway, becomes one of the largest companies in the world. And not only that, one of the largest companies in the world with the biggest cash balance sheets in the world.

[Michael Barbaro]

What does that mean, really?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So if Burlington Northern is super profitable, he can take the cash that's coming off of that. And maybe he decides, I want to invest even more money in See's Candies. And so he's constantly able to sort of move the profits from one business to another. And he would tell you that his greatest talent is what he would call capital allocation. This idea that he is better at moving money and identifying where the next big opportunity is than just about anybody else.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And my sense from my reading about Buffett through the years is that this ecosystem he has allows him to do what his business partner Charlie Munger said was so essential, which is hold companies for a long time, nurture them. And that's what having lots of money from one business and putting it in another allows him to do.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

100%. And the other thing is because his public thesis is that he's going to hold these businesses for a very long time. There are a lot of people who've been willing to sell him businesses at probably lower values than they would sell it to somebody else, because they know that, that he's genuinely trying to take care of these businesses and he wants them to last as humanly possible. And he will hold on to these businesses, even businesses that are struggling far longer than just about anybody else. And it's that long term thinking that makes him so admired, but also the way he approaches his life and you know, you can write it off as sort of a folksy charm. But this is a guy who's worth something on the order now of 160/plus billion dollars with a B, who is living in the same house that he bought in 1958 for $31,000. And up until just a couple years ago, he would drive his own car to work and he would go to McDonald's and go through the drive thru like everybody else. And so in an era of billionaires and yachts and homes and cars and planes and this and that, Warren Buffett has never been that. You know, at one point he actually did buy a private plane. What did he name his plane?

[Michael Barbaro]

What did he name it?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The indefensible.

[Michael Barbaro]

Because it's indefensible to own a private plane.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Exactly. And so it's that, I think it's that ethos, that trust, that's really allowed him to critique the system and to say things publicly aloud about the business world that often go unsaid and to identify where the charlatans really are in business. And that's really one of the things, beyond being a great investor, that's made him the conscious of capitalism.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Chris Wood]

Hi there. I'm Chris Wood, audio engineer on the Daily. That means that I put the finishing touches on the show, make everything sound a little bit better, and hit publish on my computer. That sends the day's episode out into the world so it's ready before most of our listeners wake up. So the Daily team makes a show every weekday that can mean late nights, and that's when they pass it off to me. Part of the reason that I'm able to do the work with a clear head is that it's not the middle of the night for me. You might have already guessed from my accent. I live in London and we're five hours ahead of New York. The Daily is only possible because it involves people all over the world, and that includes the whole fleet of New York Times journalists who give us their expert analysis and in depth reporting five days a week. So if you're a loyal listener and want to support what we do, as well as explore everything that the New York Times has to offer, you can [e-mail] subscribe. Cheers.

[Michael Barbaro]

So, Andrew, talk about Warren Buffett's critiques of capitalism and and the things he said that most CEOs leave unsaid and why those things ultimately mattered.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Look, he's really highlighted and pointed the finger at what he thinks of as the ills of the system. So he has spoken critically of Wall street and Wall street banks and bankers. And this idea, for example, that the advice that they're offering you is necessarily good advice.

[Warren Buffett]

You do not want to ask an investment banker what he thinks the earnings are going to be in five years or something he's trying to sell.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He often says, you know, it's the old story.

[Warren Buffett]

Don't ask the barber whether you need a haircut.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You would never go to a barber and ask them whether you need a haircut, because of course they're going to tell you you need a haircut, just like every banker is going to tell you. Of course, you need to either go do this merger or buy this thing or. Or do whatever.

[Michael Barbaro]

Can you peel back the layers of that a little bit? What exactly is it about bankers? Sometimes they're probably right, right? I mean, bankers get it right, sometimes.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Bankers get it right. They get paid an enormous fortune, typically, for what they do. And I think that one of the things he's just tried to point out to people is that the bankers might not really always have your best interests at heart.

[Warren Buffett]

I would say that people that are now investing in hedge funds in aggregate are going to be disappointed.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And he's also been a critic of hedge funds.

[Warren Buffett]

And believe me, people don't become a genius just because you walk into some office and it says hedge funds on the door.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

These are the biggest investors in the world these days who've made the most money. And he would tell you, don't invest your money with a hedge fund.

[Michael Barbaro]

Why not?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He would tell you that your returns long term will be better, literally buying an index fund like the s and P500. And he would say, accurately, that the S and P has outperformed most hedge funds after fees. So one of the things he also talks about is just how so many of these firms are all just trying to extract fees from the people who are giving them the money. And it's that kind of advice and that willingness to sort of talk about what the fine print really says that I think has ingratiated him with large swaths of the public.

[Michael Barbaro]

Can I just ask you a question? Is his critique of the bankers, the hedge funds, is it a moral one? What they're doing is fundamentally not right in his mind? Or is it that there are just better ways to make money than to do things the way that those folks do things? Or is it both?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think he thinks it's a better way, it's a safer way, and maybe ultimately it's a more moral way. He's not a shortcut Taker. He's a long term investor. And he really did try to teach the American investor not to think about owning a share of stock for a month or two or 10 days or a year, but to think, okay, if I buy it now, what's this business going to be like five years from now? What's it going to be like 10 years from now? And not your little share, but what's the whole company going to be worth? As if you really are an owner. You know, as an example of just how long term a thinker he is, what's called the class A stock of Berkshire now trades, if you can believe this, at $800,000 a share. A share. So most share.

[Michael Barbaro]

You could spend your whole life trying to buy one share, okay? And not.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And you might say to yourself, what is going on here? Because most companies try to keep their shares, sometimes $10 a share, 20, 30, 40, $100 a share, maybe $200. And that's part of the thing. He's created this stock at this price, which effectively means that if you are in it, you are in it, right? And you're in it for a very long time.

[Michael Barbaro]

By design.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

By design.

[Michael Barbaro]

The other thing, Andrew, I think of when I think of Buffett's outspokenness and his criticism of our system is what he said about what you're supposed to do with money once you've made it. And here I'm thinking about what he said about taxes and about philanthropy. So just talk to us a little bit about that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He is famous for wanting higher taxes on the wealthy, including himself. And he has said it over and over again that his secretary is taxed at a higher rate than he is. And it's not right. During the Obama years, there was actually a tax provision that was named after Warren Buffett to raise the taxes on capital gains.

[Michael Barbaro]

I'm guessing it didn't go through.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It did not go through. There's very few people in the business world who are screaming from the rooftops, tax me and tax me more. Warren Buffett actually was one of those people. And on philanthropy, he's pledged to give all of his money away, and he's been very outspoken about it. Actually created what's called the Giving Pledge with Bill Gates and Melinda Gates many years ago to really try to incentivize and frankly pressure billionaires to start giving away a lot more of their fortune. But he's now actually come out quite publicly lamenting the idea that he's actually made so much money that he can't give it all away, that he can't give it all away fast enough. And he's actually worried about who is gonna give it away.

[Michael Barbaro]

Wow, Andrew, when we're thinking about all these critiques, I think a very natural, fair, and important question here is how much did Warren Buffett actually live by the code he laid out?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You know, I don't want to suggest to you that Warren Buffett is perfect. He is not. And he oftentimes says as much. And there are things that he does and says that a critic from the outside could easily say. Feels like hypocrisy.

[Michael Barbaro]

Hmm. What are examples of where people do point the finger?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, look, he's long talked about taxes and how he would like to be taxed at a higher rate. Berkshire, the company, the way it's structured effectively is to avoid taxes. It's not illegal, it's not even that clever. But the way he's put it together, he's able to take those profits, and rather than have the profits annually taxed, he's able to keep those profits inside the company. You know, he bought Goldman Sachs during the financial crisis. This was a firm that was widely critiqued at the time. Now, he would say it was a great value investment, and he was doing it effectively to save, or at least to help save the system, if you will, at the time. He extracted extraordinary fees for Berkshire Hathaway shareholders as a result. But he effectively was investing in businesses that he has critiqued in many ways. So there are certain things that he's talked about, and I believe he genuinely believes them in the whole. But there have also been times where he has done or said something that.

[Michael Barbaro]

He'S contravened by his decisions.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That has been contravened by his decisions. He has talked about a lot of important social issues in the country, but he was never an advocate, for example, of dei. And I would ask him about that on the stage and say, your office is not particularly diverse. He would say that's almost too politically correct an idea to. To address that. He only wanted what he called the most talented people, and he was not interested in necessarily trying to find somebody who didn't look like him for that job for that reason.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, what do you say to the fact that he operates as a critic of capitalism? But I can't think of anyone who did more to exploit the possibilities of capitalism to make so. So, so, so much money. I mean, so much money that at a certain point you're sort of like, why are you even making even more money?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So let me. There's a big nuance in this, actually, with Warren Buffett, which is he is not a critic of capitalism. The concept, he is its champion. What he is a critic of is the ills of capitalism and the charlatans that are engaged in capitalism and those that are taking advantage of the weak in capitalism. That's the role that I think he's played as a, quote, unquote, conscience of capitalism. I don't think he's here saying capitalism doesn't work or it's a problem or anything else. I think he'll tell you over and over again there's no better way to do it.

[Michael Barbaro]

Do you think that in the end, Buffett made capitalism any better?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

If you're asking me, did he fundamentally change policy, change regulations, for example, around business, the way businesses behave on any given day? It's very hard to point to a long list, but I do think it's very fair to say that he made investors, he made the public smarter. And ultimately, if he actually did that, at least on the margins, he made the system better.

[Michael Barbaro]

Just explain that. I mean, why does that make the system better?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think Buffett ultimately made the world a little smarter about how the system really works. And I think by the public understanding how the system really works, understanding that his secretary is paying a higher tax rate, by understanding that the hedge funds are trying to extract fees from you, by explaining that when you hear that there's an independent director on a board who's a professor, you might want to question how independent they really are because they probably need the money. I mean, there are these little things that he knows about that he understands about the world of business. And by educating the public about those things, you like to think that improves the system because there are fewer people to cheat.

[Michael Barbaro]

I guess I want to end with the question, Andrew, that I think you're well situated to answer after spending all these years covering Buffett, which is ultimately, what do you think motivated him through all this time? I mean, he does not live large. He wants to give all his money away. I have a much better understanding in my mind of what motivated Jeff Bezos. Right. He wanted to build the Everything store, or Elon Musk, who wants to save humanity and wants to get to Mars and wants to slash government down to size. I'm much less clear in my head about what animates Buffett. And I wonder if you've gotten a lot closer in your.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think I understanding Buffett in this way, which is. You're right. I don't think that there's a grand vision necessarily to influence the world in the kinds of ways that an Elon Musk may want to influence the world. I don't think there's an effort to want to impact politics necessarily the way some people with wealth do. And the money for him, I think is a scorecard. I think that's all it is. I think it's a contest of wits for him. And what he wants more than anything, I think is actually to be this teacher about the system, think of anything. He wants to be a successful role model of how a business could work on a long term basis and I.

[Michael Barbaro]

Guess how capitalism could work.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

How capitalism can work when it's done in the best of faith.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Andrew, thank you very much.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Thanks for having me. FOREIGN.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'Ll be right back. Here's what else you need to know. Today, India has conducted strikes inside of Pakistan in a major escalation in the long running tensions between the two nuclear armed neighbors. The strikes or retaliation for a massacre by armed militants that killed more than two dozen Indian civilians in the disputed territory of Kashmir. Indian officials said they had struck multiple camps used by terrorists and took pains to say that no Pakistani military facilities had been targeted. But Pakistan claimed that the strikes had killed civilians and that they would not go unless answered. In a statement, the Pakistani government said, quote, the temporary pleasure of India will be replaced by enduring grief. Today's episode was produced by Sydney Harper and Caitlin O'Keefe with help from Astha Chaturvedi. It was edited by Mark George, Chris Haxel and Paige Cowett. Contains original music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell and Diane Wong and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunford and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Barbara. See you tomorrow.