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- [00:00]
Host
This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way you can save money without missing out on features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com. That's O D O O dot com.
- [00:36]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home in auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [00:56]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You're listening to Comedy Central.
- [01:13]
Host
Welcome back to my guest tonight, one of our favorites, very funny best selling author. His new book is called let's Explore Diabetes with Owls. Please welcome back to the program.
- [01:21]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
David Sedaris.
- [01:28]
Host
Come and sit. An absolute pleasure. First of all, let me say you look terrific. Very nice suit. I enjoy it very much. Let's talk about your book. You are all over how far your book tour is, how many cities, how many do you even know anymore?
- [01:48]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
I think it's like 60 or 57. But I started, I think I've been to like 36 cities so far.
- [01:55]
Host
36 cities. Which one did you hate the most? Any of them.
- [02:01]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
I just noticed how people dress differently and different. Like in Reno, Nevada, the ice breaking question when I was signing books was why did you choose that T shirt? I mean you'd think this was like a lecture tour. So people bought tickets and they're going to the theater, right? And so you just think maybe you'd put on a long pair of pants or shorts that weren't cut off. Maybe if you were going to buying.
- [02:23]
Host
A ticket, what was the climate like? Was it a particularly hot and humid environment that people thought, well, I don't want to perspire?
- [02:30]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
No. I asked a woman and she was wearing a Count Chocula T shirt and she was in her 60s. And I said is that your good count chocolate T shirt? And she said, I didn't think anyone was going to notice. You know, I think it's the same thing, you know when people go to the grocery store wearing anything. I think it's the same, you know, except this. They bought a ticket and they spent 50 or 60 bucks and same thinking. But the people are all I mean, I like them. I mean, I like them all perfectly fine. I just noticed from city to city, one other.
- [03:01]
Host
Were there other cities where it's. Are there some people that come in, like, with a top hat and tails? Like, is there a more, like, formal San Francisco?
- [03:10]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
I think I find people trying to.
- [03:11]
Host
Are they trying too hard in San Francisco, do you think?
- [03:14]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
No, no. But they, you know, they put a little effort into it. That's just. I noticed.
- [03:18]
Host
Did you find anyone came up to the table and you didn't say anything, and they were like, hmm, I worked really hard on this outfit. Like, did anyone come up with, like, epaulets or, like, a Michael Jackson outfit or anything like that?
- [03:32]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Nothing that. Nothing that severe.
- [03:36]
Host
I love the Count Chocula thing, because I didn't even know that that T shirt, like, she must have gotten it when she was 20.
- [03:42]
Announcer
I don't know.
- [03:42]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
She was in her mid-60s, and she had a count chocolate T shirt on.
- [03:46]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
And I think.
- [03:47]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Did she have sweatpants on with it? But she had. It was a whole outfit. She was working the whole outfit.
- [03:52]
Host
We can settle this right now, because you've got, like, 30 more cities to go. I think you should ask people to all wear the same thing. Everyone should come in, like, a yellow jumpsuit.
- [04:00]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Well, I like, you know, I know there are people who go on their book tour and they're like that, but I talk to people so much that they're like, let me let you go.
- [04:11]
Host
Let me let you go.
- [04:12]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Because. I'm either in a room by myself, I'm either in a room by myself writing, or I'm out in the world, you know? And so it's a good opportunity if there's a theory that I'm working or a poll that I want to take. And so at the beginning of the theory, you're asking.
- [04:37]
Host
So at a book signing, someone will come up to you and you're asking them polling questions.
- [04:42]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Yeah, Like, I had a theory when I started the tour that men with beards had guns. But you know what I've discovered? What? I've discovered men with beards have fathers who have guns. I'm 80% right on this. 80% right.
- [04:58]
Host
Men with beards have fathers who have guns. Were the beards grown at gunpoint? Was this. Is this a situation where they wouldn't normally grow it? But the father was. I insist.
- [05:14]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
I met a guy, and he was from the Phil. You know, his family was from the Philippines. He had, like, 17 hairs on his chin. His dad had bullets. Not a gun. Not a gun. I don't know if he was going to throw them at people or what, but his dad just had a box of bullets but no gun.
- [05:30]
Host
Do you find that different? Like, if someone had a full beard, would you be like, we have to investigate this man's father? Like, he would have an arsenal. Like, were smaller facial hair configurations correlated with smaller weaponry?
- [05:44]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
No. I met people with, like, Van Dykes whose dads had arsenals.
- [05:48]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Really?
- [05:48]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Mm.
- [05:49]
Host
And they would. Would they ever be taken aback? Like, why do you want to know like that?
- [05:54]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Yeah. But then also on this tour, I was out with a friend, and I've known him since junior high school. And we went to a restaurant for lunch, and then the waitress asked if we wanted dessert. We hadn't thought about it. We thought, okay, let's. Of banana cream pie. And then I looked across the room, and there were two other men splitting a piece of pie. And they were around our age, and they were gay. I'm assuming they were. And I thought because. Because straight men would not share dessert. So I started asking men at the book signings, would you share dessert with another guy? And they said, like, one guy said, you know, I'd share a plate of buffalo wings. But he said. He said, but, like, a piece of pie, that's just crossing the line.
- [06:48]
Host
I really. I'm like, I'm pretty secure in my sexuality, but for the first time. Cause as soon as you said that, like, sure, I share pie all the time. And that was now. So now I have to feel like, oh, God, is this the right lifestyle I'm leading right now? I'm gonna go home to my wife and be like, honey, I think we have to talk.
- [07:03]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
I met these other guys, and they had just recently shared a piece of cake, but they told the waitress were not gay. Like, they wanted her to know that they weren't gay. But then I met a whole other kind of guy who's just all about the dessert, and he would eat it. He would eat frosting off another man's. If it was.
- [07:26]
Host
If. If. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
- [07:37]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
If that's what it was being served on.
- [07:39]
Announcer
You.
- [07:42]
Host
See, here's how I know I'm not gay. In that situation, I would do this.
- [07:49]
Announcer
All right.
- [07:52]
Host
Let'S explore. Diabetes with owls is on the bookshelves now. Gay it's a dance. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card. And the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families, helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify. My guest tonight, an acclaimed historian, two time Pulitzer Prize winning author. His latest book is 1776. You're welcome to the program. David McCullough. David, So you, sir, thank you. I always find that the Pulitzer Prize winner sits first. Nice to see you, my friend. The book is 1776. What a wonderful read. You and I are both historians and authors to some extent. You chose to fill your history book with facts. Interesting choice. Tell me why.
- [09:28]
Announcer
Stranger than fiction.
- [09:29]
Host
Stranger than fiction.
- [09:30]
Announcer
Stranger.
- [09:31]
Host
How do you find new facts about a subject so pored over as the American Revolution?
- [09:37]
Announcer
It's amazing how much there is that hasn't been worked over before. The best material for me at least was in diaries and letters, memoirs, all of which have survived all these years. And they're in archival collections or libraries. And that's how you can get close to the real flesh and blood people who were caught up in that drama.
- [10:02]
Host
Do you believe that they wrote their diaries for historical perspective? Absolutely. Is there a self consciousness in them?
- [10:08]
Announcer
Some there is, but most of the, the best of them are written by soldiers in the ranks or young officers writing home to their families or keeping the diary for their family. And they're under such duress they're living through hell and they're not making anything up and they're not doing it for the history books. Now some of those who are in the positions of real leadership or responsibility, more conspicuous officers. And so at times may have been doing that, but they really, they don't know how it's going to turn out. It's awfully visceral and they're living day to day and that's so important to remember. And they don't know if they're going to get through the day alive very often. And they're trying to write it down. And also keep in mind too that there was no journalists covering the war. Newspapers didn't do that then town criers embedded. No, we don't, no reporting at all. It's all what you can find in what they, the participants said, the protagonists themselves. And it ranges from a kid who was a Pfeiffer boy who was 16 and looked about 14, John Greenwood, you.
- [11:28]
Host
Talk about a kid who's 10. You mentioned a kid who was working as a cook in here who's 10 years old and another gentleman who's 57.
- [11:35]
Announcer
Yeah. And the range is all over the place in age and background.
- [11:40]
Host
You also deal from both perspectives, which.
- [11:42]
Announcer
I thought was very interesting and difficult to do. And I became very sympathetic to what the British soldiers and the Hessian soldiers were going through. They were very courageous, brave people. They were on the wrong side, but they were nonetheless impressive.
- [11:56]
Host
The Hessians, if I may, and no disrespect, seemed kind of a little prickish. There was a lot of, you know.
- [12:03]
Announcer
It'S a technical term.
- [12:03]
Host
A technical term. There's a lot of cut off his head with a bayonet, stuck it on a pole and put it outside the fort. The Hessians seem to be like Drago and Rocky, like killing machines. True.
- [12:15]
Announcer
Yes. Yes. But that's what they were trained to do. That's what their business was. They were professional soldiers, as were the British. And we weren't very good at being soldiers at first. And some of these kids that fought in the Battle of Brooklyn, for example, Greene follows off of a Connecticut farm who maybe had been carrying a musket for two weeks, and they're up against the best professional.
- [12:43]
Host
And Washington appeared to have somewhat of a disdain for these, especially for the New England soldiers. Guys that he thought maybe weren't of the quality of the Southern soldiers, thought that their personal habits were not up to snuff. It's very interesting to read about his ambivalence.
- [12:57]
Announcer
And he tried to hide that bias because that's really all he had to work with at first when he took command. And he'd never commanded an army before in his life. He'd been in the French and Indian War and distinguished himself with courage and certain abilities, but he had never commanded an army. And here he had an army of New Englanders who were all people that he thought were dirty and avaricious, and he didn't like them. And they had this odd idea that they would decide things for themselves. You know, they'd vote on whether they would do this or.
- [13:23]
Host
Please. Yes, ridiculous.
- [13:25]
Announcer
And. But he overcame that. And what's so interesting is the two best officers that he had he spotted within a few days after meeting them, Nathaniel Greene and Henry Knox, one of whom was a Quaker who had no business by his background being in the war at all, who had a limp so bad that he would have been disqualified for service in the military under kind of rules and regulations we have, let's say, and Henry Knox, who'd had part of one hand blown away in a hunting accident, who was a 25 year old Boston bookseller and he had.
- [14:04]
Host
Said, without those guys, we don't win.
- [14:06]
Announcer
But they, but they'd read books about the military. And that was an age and a time when it was widely believed, age of the Enlightenment. The good way to find things out was to read books.
- [14:19]
Host
That's over now.
- [14:19]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [14:21]
Host
I mentioned earlier, it seems like what's almost so disheartening about reading it, even though it's an exciting read, is the redundancy of war. That the humanity of the characters fighting it, the feeling of powers that are out of their control, that are driving it, the redundancy, the arguments, it is so cyclical. Is that as you read about these and you write these, do you feel like we're just always damned to repeat this kind of cycle?
- [14:51]
Announcer
Well, I think you have to differentiate between wars now. This was the most important war in, in our history because it's the war that makes possible our birth. It is the awful labor pain of the birth of a nation. And it was the longest war in our history, except for Vietnam. And it was the bloodiest war on a per capita basis, except for the Civil War. This was a very bloody, long war and people suffered. And you can't just judge the horrors of war by how many people died, because for every person that died, as we are being reminded constantly now, there are people suffering from grief and loss and questions. I think one of the lessons of this war, this particular year, of this war, 1776, most important year of the most important war in our history, is that it could have gone either way at almost any time.
- [15:50]
Host
The wind blows differently at the Battle of Brooklyn than the British can bring in their ships. Yes.
- [15:53]
Announcer
Literally, if the wind had been a different direction, I think we would have had quite a different outcome. Also, some wars are worth fighting and this really was worth fighting. And the people who were in it felt that way.
- [16:06]
Host
And it's a story that now we have at the birth of our nation that resonates because we're proud of the story and maybe that's the most important thing for it.
- [16:13]
Announcer
Yeah, we tend to see the people of the 18th century as sort of figures in a costume pageant, you know, in their ruffled shirts and their powdered hair. And they look sort of like fops.
- [16:24]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Right.
- [16:25]
Announcer
These are very strong people, very tough people.
- [16:27]
Host
You're not kidding.
- [16:28]
Announcer
And we owe them so much that we really never can know enough about them.
- [16:32]
Host
Well, I have to say what's so wonderful about it is the nuances it brings to the characters. Even a story that's well worn and well known by people. So thank you very much for coming on the show.
- [16:42]
Announcer
Thank you.
- [16:42]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Appreciate it.
- [16:44]
Host
1776 is on the bookshelf. David McKellar.
- [16:51]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
My guest tonight is a best selling author whose new book is called A Memoir of My Body. Please welcome Roxane Gay.
- [17:02]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Welcome.
- [17:04]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Welcome to the show.
- [17:05]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
Um, I know you from your writings. I know you from your columns. Many people know you from topics that range from to feminism to politics to social commentary. But this book is something different. This book is a memoir.
- [17:18]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Yes.
- [17:18]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
That takes us through your life in a way that I don't think anybody would expect. It takes us through your life through the prism of eating and through the prism of being a fat person living in the world.
- [17:32]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Yes.
- [17:33]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
Why did you choose to write it in this way?
- [17:35]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Because I didn't want to write it at all. But as I was thinking of what I wanted my next nonfiction project to be, I wanted to tell the story of my body. Because when you're fat in the world, people have assumptions about who you are and why you're fat, and they think you're stupid. Like yesterday, someone emailed me, do you know that exercise is required to lose weight? No. Never occurred to me. I think it's important to show what it's actually like to live in this world in a fat body.
- [18:06]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
What's really heart wrenching is the story that you tell in the book. And that is you were gang raped at 12 years old.
- [18:15]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Yes, I was.
- [18:16]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
And that led to a journey of hating yourself, hating your body. How did that come to be? How does, how does your world collapse? I know you write about it in the book, but I mean, how does that happen?
- [18:29]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Uh, you know, when I was 12, this thing happened and it was so unexpected. And I was a good Catholic girl. And so I didn't even know, like, what sex was. I mean, I knew the technicalities, but I did not know what rape was.
- [18:41]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
Right.
- [18:41]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
I certainly didn't know that you could be with more than one person. And so my world was shattered in the aftermath. And I just thought, I want to be stronger. I want to be bigger. And so I thought, if I eat a lot, those boys won't do this again because I'll be able to fight them next time. And they won't want to do this because I'll be fat. And boys don't like fat girls. And so in many ways, it was a deliberate choice. And of course, looking back. I'm like, girl talk to mom and dad. But, you know, 12 year olds with secrets hold onto them very tightly.
- [19:15]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
And that was something you didn't do. You didn't talk to mom and dad.
- [19:17]
Host
Why?
- [19:18]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
I was really scared because I believed everything that we learned in church about premarital sex being a sin. And I was absolutely certain that I was going to hell. And then those boys went to school the following day and told everyone a different story, that I wanted it. And so everyone started calling me a slut. And I just knew nobody would believe me because it was gonna be my word against these guys.
- [19:41]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
You.
- [19:41]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
You talk a lot about the consequences of living in a world that sees fats a certain way. Now, I won't deny, as a comedian and as a person, I've made a ton of fat jokes in my life.
- [19:53]
Announcer
Absolutely.
- [19:54]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
And there was a time when fat was seen as a novelty, as a choice.
- [19:58]
Host
Mm.
- [19:58]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
America's now gotten to a place where people are realizing it's an epidemic. They're realizing. Realizing that there are effects.
- [20:06]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Yes.
- [20:07]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
What are some of the effects that you've dealt with living in your body?
- [20:12]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Well, you know, there are a lot of things that you encounter. Like at the grocery store, people make commentary on what they see in your cart, and they send you unsolicited advice. I'm a writer and I do events, and I've had people come up to the signing line and offer me nutritional advice. I'm sorry. It's just insane. You know, the world doesn't fit. Often you don't fit in the world oftentimes. I write in the book that the bigger you become, the smaller your world gets, because, you know, you can't necessarily fit in theater seats and airplane travel is such a pain because those seats are not roomy for anyone. And so you either have to buy two tickets, and then the airline is like, why did you buy two tickets? Or you buy one ticket and you encroach on someone else's space. And they're like, why didn't you buy two tickets? And so no matter what you do, you can't fit. And the world is not really interested in creating a space for you to fit. People just judge you, and they say you're gonna die nine years younger, which, why do you care? And then they think you're draining the healthcare system as they smoke a cigarette. And so it's just a constant sense that you don't belong. And people feel no compunction about being cruel about.
- [21:25]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
It's honestly, it's an amazing story and I can only thank you for sharing it with us.
- [21:29]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Thank you so much.
- [21:29]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
Thank you for being here.
- [21:30]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Roxanne Hunger will be available June 13th.
- [21:35]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
Roxanne Day everybody.
- [21:36]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
We'll be right back.
- [21:37]
Guest 5 (Roxane Gay interviewer or co-host)
Thank you so much.
- [21:40]
Announcer
New Year, same extra value meals at McDonald's. So now get two snack wraps plus.
- [21:46]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Fries and a medium soft drink for just $8 for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary.
- [21:52]
Host
Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California.
- [21:54]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
And for delivery. There's a world where legends race across city skylines. Romance blossoms in glittering ballrooms. And there's magic around every corner. It's a world known to many as Great Britain. You've seen the action on screen, now visit the real star of the show. Visit Great Britain. To discover more, go to tripadvisor.com Great Britain.
- [22:29]
Host
Welcome back. My guest tonight, a best selling author. His latest book is called Half Empty. Please welcome back to the show, David Rakoff. David Raykoff, what's happening?
- [22:52]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Not much. Thank you for having me.
- [22:53]
Host
Please, what have you brought for our audience tonight?
- [23:01]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
I've actually been eating so much candy backstage that I'm about to burst into tears. So I really do.
- [23:06]
Host
The book is called have Emmy. Once again, hilarious book. There is a warning on the book, miss. No inspirational life lessons will be found.
- [23:14]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
In these pages and it turns out to be true.
- [23:18]
Host
Actually, tell me about this, tell me about the philosophy of the book.
- [23:21]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Well, the book is meant to be a defense of pessimism, melancholy, sadness, all the emotions that a self selecting group, we can just call them Jews. My feel is they're sort of baseline.
- [23:39]
Host
Did not see that coming.
- [23:42]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
You know, the baseline. That baseline way you see the world turns out to be as value neutral as having brown eyes. There's nothing particularly wrong with being more pessimistic than optimistic. Optimism is sort of broad based, non detail oriented thinking. Pessimism is detail oriented thinking.
- [24:00]
Host
Well, see, here's what's interesting to me. I am pessimistic by nature but optimistic by force. Because I force myself to then go back through history. Like in other words, I have Purell. But then I realized, well, 200 years ago they had bubonic plague. We pooped in the water we drank, you know.
- [24:17]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Exactly.
- [24:18]
Host
So I look at it, what I do is I deal with my own neuroses and then I try and place them because I.
- [24:25]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
In the larger context. Yes. But the only thing that gives me hope right now is that things are cyclical. That's the only thing that's given me hope.
- [24:31]
Host
Really?
- [24:32]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Yeah.
- [24:32]
Host
But don't you think people in ancient times who had like, bubonic plague and all that, they didn't have neurotic people then. They didn't have like, oh, if I. But if I go there, I might get the typhoid. You know, like they just. Neuroses is almost a luxury to some.
- [24:48]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Extent, a certain kind neurosis. But I think that the more pessimistic, detail oriented people stayed in, you know, illuminating manuscripts through inventing telescopes or what?
- [24:57]
Host
I don't know, telescopes to make sure there were no asteroids that were going to hit us.
- [25:01]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
That's exactly.
- [25:03]
Host
Now, in the writing of the book, was your worldview in any way validated as you were, this pessimistic worldview, this melancholy. Did anything occur that any little sort of thing, anything that might have.
- [25:17]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Well, you know, I was writing the book. My editor said, you know, you seem to have a problem with accessing pleasure or feeling joy, so why don't you actually write about that? So the book was underway and the book was really late for a long time. I had this pinched nerve in my arm and so I was like two years late. And my editor was sympathetic to a point, but, you know, it's a pinched nerve. But my arm was on fire for like two years. Turns out to a big old tumor was pinching my nerve. So it's great, though. I mean, here's pronounced.
- [25:49]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
It's great.
- [25:52]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
I'm not crazy.
- [25:54]
Host
Can I just savor that? Those two sentences juxtaposed. It turned out to be a tumor, but it was great.
- [26:00]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Well, here's the thing. If you're writing a book about how we should all look at the world in all of its flinty, afflicted, dark reality.
- [26:10]
Announcer
Right.
- [26:11]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
The ultimate money where your mouth is moment is. Oh, really, Mr. Smart Guy, Mr. Negative, Mr. I feel so bad. Boom, tumor. So. So in.
- [26:24]
Announcer
At least.
- [26:25]
Host
So at that point, you can go to your editor and go, I told you so.
- [26:30]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Exactly, exactly. And so the book was really late because of that, because then I had, you know, radiation and surgery and chemo to me again.
- [26:41]
Host
You look great. You look healthy, you look vital. How are you feeling? Like, is it.
- [26:46]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
I feel fine. I mean, I'm currently in chemotherapy, so.
- [26:49]
Host
Right now? Yes.
- [26:51]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
I mean, not immediately right now.
- [26:53]
Host
Here's right now, as we speak, you are about having chemo. This is what I've always wondered about. And sort of the old Woody Allen conundrum. People who worry about things that could happen to them when the thing happens to them.
- [27:05]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Is there a kind of a relief? Yes, there is. A kind of. I mean, yes, it's like waiting for rain and then finally it rains.
- [27:14]
Host
Kind of. Or do you go like. I bet it turns into a like. Is it what. What happens at that point?
- [27:21]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Well, it turns out. Here's the thing. When it turns out to be your own mortality on the line, people generally tend to be quite optimistic about their long term chances of survival.
- [27:31]
Host
I think.
- [27:31]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
I think the will to keep on going is incredibly strong. Do I feel therefore does it extend to feeling optimism about the Roberts Court? No.
- [27:43]
Host
So you feel like the cancer. You can take care of the Roberts Court.
- [27:48]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Citizens United. We are just completely screwed.
- [27:52]
Host
That has metastasized. Precisely. That is wild. It's so interesting. Do you like your caregivers? Do they try and pump you up? Do they give you hope?
- [28:03]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
No.
- [28:03]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Luckily enough they don't. They recognize me for what I am and who I am, which is. There was a study. It even talks about it. I even talk about it. In the book. There was a study that shows that the long term mortality of people with lousy attitudes is no different from people with great attitudes. So you can be the worst bastard on the ward and you will not die at any greater rate than the other people. People will simply be gladder when you do. But no, all that positive outlook stuff, I'm not, you know, all that sort of. I'm going to chemotherapy. My sky high Jimmy Choos and crazy sexy cancer. It's like what you're essentially saying is that the alternative. If you can't do that, if you can't sort of enact a Sex and the City episode on your way to cancer treatment, if you just feel lousy all the time, then it's somehow your fault. I don't really subscribe to that.
- [28:52]
Host
Right, right, right.
- [28:53]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
It seems kind of blame the victim Y to me.
- [28:55]
Host
Right, right, right. Oh, that's a real. That's an interesting take on it. The only thing I would be concerned about is when you're a bastard, you're also requiring. You're falling upon the kindness of strangers. There is a certain. Like the nurse. Oh, yeah. You will get bento.
- [29:07]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
You will.
- [29:07]
Host
That's what I was gonna suggest. Like, you know what? Let's give him a sponge bath with the brillo. Let's see how that goes.
- [29:13]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Your room will smell like a hobo camp.
- [29:16]
Host
Believe me, that's gotta be the title of your next book.
- [29:19]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
It is the title of my next book.
- [29:21]
Host
Your Room will smell like a hobo camp. Well, I'm so pleased to see you looking so good and Being so sharp and. Oh, thanks, man. It's always great to see you. And I wish you luck. The book is hilarious. Half empty. It's on the bookshelves now. David Ragoff.
- [29:40]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Hello, welcome back.
- [29:41]
Host
My guest tonight, bestselling author, one of our favorites, her forthcoming book is called Lafayette in the Somewhat United States. Please welcome back to our program, Sarah Vowles. Sarah. Here. I have missed you.
- [30:02]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
I know.
- [30:03]
Host
And I'm so delighted that you could come join us.
- [30:05]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
I'm glad I could be here at your deathbed, too. Just like President Garfield of Ohio.
- [30:12]
Host
It is similar. What do you think now? Does McKinley deserve an Alaska mountain? I mean, then you're just throwing mountains around everybody.
- [30:18]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
I mean. Well, I mean, do we really want to talk about McKinley? I mean, who doesn't, right?
- [30:23]
Host
Yeah. I mean, we'll get to Lafayette. I do want to talk about Lafayette, because I'm fascinated.
- [30:26]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Well, I've been thinking about McKinley lately, you know, because of stuff in the news with the Confederate flag.
- [30:31]
Host
Yes.
- [30:31]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
And you know how the Civil War, the people who were in the Union and the president at the time, a lot of the ones on that side were Republicans.
- [30:40]
Host
Yes.
- [30:41]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
And then a lot of the people these days who want to keep the Confederate flag on their stupid state lawns are. Some of them are Republican.
- [30:50]
Host
Yeah. It switched.
- [30:51]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
And you're like, what happened? Yeah, it was President McKinley. He had this guy, his name was Mark Hanna, and he was like his Karl Rove animator. He was like his Karl Rove.
- [31:03]
Host
Oh, okay.
- [31:03]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
He has a very nice tomb in Cleveland if you're in town. And he decided, hey, it was, you know, in the 1890s. And he decided, there are all these white guys down south who can vote. We should get them to vote for the Republicans. And So he sent McKinley down to South. And McKinley gave some speeches about how McKinley, a Civil War veteran, gave some speeches about how the Civil War was about American valor.
- [31:32]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Wow.
- [31:33]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
And that's how they.
- [31:34]
Host
That's the Southern strategy.
- [31:35]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
So that's how they started courting.
- [31:37]
Host
Why didn't that take hold until, like, George Wallace and the Dixiecrats?
- [31:41]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Well, it takes a while because the guys who still remembered being shot at.
- [31:46]
Host
So they were still thinking, like, I still don't trust the Democrats. They were shooting at us.
- [31:50]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
It was a long process, but I feel they were successful in the end.
- [31:55]
Host
They somewhat were, you can tell them short. But let's go back even further now to the beginning of this grand experiment and Lafayette.
- [32:03]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Let's ruin everyone's fourth of July.
- [32:04]
Host
Let's not let us enlighten the world. From your perspective, why Lafayette? What is so valuable about him? And how did a child. He was a child.
- [32:14]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
He was 19.
- [32:15]
Host
A child.
- [32:16]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Yeah.
- [32:17]
Host
When he came to basically defend America. Why did he do that?
- [32:21]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
One reason. The British had killed his dad in a war. So he had a grudge. He wanted to get away.
- [32:30]
Host
This seems to be a theme throughout history.
- [32:32]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
He wanted to get away from his in laws and he believed in enlightenment ideals of freedom and liberty.
- [32:40]
Host
So did Lafayette then have to convince the king of France, why don't we get involved in this? Which could expose it into a global war.
- [32:48]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Right.
- [32:48]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
I mean he was in on it. There were some ministers who were working for the king of France. You know, prime minister virgin. He was sure.
- [32:57]
Host
Virgin was tremendous.
- [32:59]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Yeah, yeah. Well, as you know, I think of you as my vergen.
- [33:03]
Host
I was going to say you think of me as your prime minister vergen who ultimately ended up getting the king killed.
- [33:07]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
I mean, well, because he, he spent all his money helping us. And then they went bankrupt and the peasants are like, I'm hungry. The founding fathers, they had a problem with taxation without representation in general. But they were pretty open minded about the French king taxing the French people.
- [33:26]
Host
Yes. You know, without representation.
- [33:27]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Yeah.
- [33:28]
Host
That is an irony that I never picked up on. But you're absolutely.
- [33:32]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Somebody should write a book about it.
- [33:36]
Host
I hope they do soon.
- [33:38]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Thank you.
- [33:38]
Host
Very soon.
- [33:39]
Guest 4 (David Sedaris)
Yeah.
- [33:40]
Host
So Lafayette comes here, he wants glory. Without Lafayette, in truth, we have to be honest here. Without Lafayette, there is no United States of America. We don't defeat the.
- [33:49]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Well, I mean he's pretty important. He's thinking, I'm going to go help these people who believe in liberty. And you know, some of them wanted to stay in Great Britain and some of them wanted to fire George Washington. And you know, we were always a bunch of bickerers.
- [34:05]
Host
And so you're not surprised by the tenor in the country right now? You're not surprised by the arguments we're having in the country right now. And this has really been a part of our DNA from the get go. Since the get go.
- [34:15]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Yes, for sure. And I think it's our strength as well as our weakness. The Continental Congress. One guy said we should have a fast day. You know, they don't eat to humble themselves before their God.
- [34:26]
Host
Yeah.
- [34:26]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Jews and Jefferson. Jefferson was like, eh, that seems a little religious. And then John Adams stands up and he's like, Jefferson, I thought you were a man of piety and virtue. And now this, you know, and so, and right at the moment Adams was like oh, Jefferson is my friend. Maybe I offended him at that moment. Jefferson, he got up out of his chair and he went over and he just sat next to his friend John Adams. So like we can fight and we can disagree, but we can still sit next to each other.
- [35:04]
Host
I'll tell you something, Lafayette in the somewhat United States. That is a beautiful message. Thank you. To end this on one of my favorite authors of all time, Lafayette in the summer United States. It's on the boat shows in October.
- [35:17]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
So Bell, this is pro linebacker TJ Watt and I'm back with YPB by Abercrombie for another activewear drop. My second co design collection has new shorts and tanks that keep up with all my in season workouts. And their new Restore collection is a game changer off the field too, because even pro athletes like me need rest days. Shop YPB by Abercrombie in the app, online and in stores. Because your personal best is greater than anything. Abercrombie knows how denim should fit and feel and this year is about curating a denim collection that carries your closet head straight to Abercrombie's baggy and ultra baggy fits. These are the pairs that turn any tier shirt into a full outfit. All of their jeans come in classic fit with select jeans available in athletic fit designed for guys who want more room in the thigh. Shop Abercrombie Denim in the app online and in stores.
- [36:21]
Host
My guest tonight, a critically acclaimed best selling author. His new book is called the Message. Please welcome back to the program Ta Nehisi Coates. Hello. Hello my friend. You are grappling. This is a book of grappling. It's reparations, the purpose of art, the purpose of writing, your role, your responsibility, the Israel, Palestine. I could see you want to go back to just writing comic books again for five years. This is what, what was in you that you thought I need to take on these big questions, including what is this for? What is what is writing for?
- [37:27]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I have for a long time had in the back of my head that we do not have a complete understanding of politics. That is to say, we think of politics as what happens inside of a voting booth. You go in and you choose, you know, pull a lever for whatever, right? But there's a whole entire architecture that happens outside of that voting booth that defines what goes on inside of it. What issues are appropriate, frankly, who is human and who is not. And that is the work of stories, movies, television shows, writing, all of that and being a writer and this coming out of, you know, Me talking to my students at Howard University at the time, I really, really wanted to address that. You know, so often I get the question, why should I write? Why should I write? Not in general, but by the time they get to me, they usually. My students are like, there's but a lot of, you know, other times when I'm, you know, out in the world, what is writing gonna do? Like, what is it actually gonna change? And what I wanted people to understand is writing actually shapes the world around you entirely.
- [38:21]
Host
Right?
- [38:21]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [38:22]
Host
See, I would have said basic cable, but okay, writing.
- [38:25]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
But somebody has to write the scripts, right? Somebody has to.
- [38:27]
Host
That's exactly right.
- [38:27]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Exactly. Exactly.
- [38:29]
Host
Is that. Do you grapple with that as a burden or a call to arms? What is for you? How do you wear it?
- [38:40]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Oh, it's exciting.
- [38:42]
Host
It's exciting.
- [38:42]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [38:43]
Host
It gets me up in the morning, right?
- [38:44]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
It, like, pumps my blood. Like, I can't wait. You know what I mean? Like, there are people who. I got a friend who's an ER doc, right? And I was texting this morning about, you know, everything that was going on, right? And he disappeared. He said, sorry, this guy just got shot. I'm sorry. And I said to him, how beautiful is it to have work that actually matters? Are you out there saving people's lives? And I'm not an ER doctor, But it is a blessing to feel like what I write actually matters in the world.
- [39:11]
Host
Right?
- [39:12]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know what I mean? It gives me meaning and purpose, and I kind of wanted to convey that, you know, to all the young writers.
- [39:18]
Host
You know, who hopefully, as inspiration.
- [39:19]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yes, yes.
- [39:20]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
The beautiful.
- [39:20]
Host
Your friend was at work when the guy got shot, right? He was.
- [39:23]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yes, he was.
- [39:24]
Host
He was. Because for a second, I was like, wait, he was at work, right?
- [39:26]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah, he was.
- [39:26]
Host
He was at work. You were talking to me. He was like, no, no, no, no.
- [39:29]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
He was at work.
- [39:30]
Host
All right, that's very good. Do you get frustrated? And this is something that I think about sometimes, that the world that you would prefer to see, that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice, and the work of writing is trying to help facilitate that. That it is that that arc of moral justice is so resilient against bending that it's so hard to matter in that form.
- [39:58]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I get sad, right? And there are a lot of moments in here where I was really sad, Right. You know, but at the same time, like I said, it fills me with purpose. I don't know if I would have that purpose. I talked about just a few minutes ago, you know, without that great Difficulty. Honestly, it feels great to know that if I actually try really, really hard at the thing, if I actually work really, really hard to write the best book I possibly can, you know, that I could be here talking to you, that it actually.
- [40:28]
Host
Oh, you could have written a shitty book and been on here. Listen, if that's the case, I can tell you you didn't have to work nearly this hard. But it is. It's a beautifully felt book. I want to ask you. There's a certain aspect of your career that has really tried to reconcile not with things in the present, but their vestiges. The structures, racial politics, slavery, economic injustices, where it might not be the active virus, but it's these vestiges of it that still, you know, leach into the groundwater and make it toxic and polluted. This book felt a little different in that you were also going into the present.
- [41:18]
Announcer
Yeah.
- [41:19]
Host
And bringing those lessons with you. And I thought that was a really moving part of the book.
- [41:25]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah, that's true. And I guess I'm gonna be the one to broach this, but it was obviously most active when I was in Jerusalem, when I was in Haifa, when I was on the West Bank. I mean, it was. It was the history. But the history was active.
- [41:39]
Host
Right.
- [41:39]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
And that was. That was tough. That was tough. I'm used to, you know, going to some, you know, slave plantation and saying, well, yeah, this did happen 150 years ago, but here's how, you know, you can still feel the impact. And you go, no, no, it's right now.
- [41:51]
Host
Right?
- [41:52]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
It's right now.
- [41:53]
Host
And it comes on the heels. So in the book, you're also. You take a trip to Senegal?
- [41:57]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I do, yes.
- [41:59]
Host
Is that in relation to your trip to Israel and the west bank in that same time frame, or was that split up?
- [42:06]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
It was about. So I think I went in. This would have been like September of 2022 to Senegal, then May of 23 to the west bank and to Israel. And weirdly enough, they are in conversation with each other. I can't say I intended that.
- [42:23]
Host
Right. Well, that's why I was curious, because there is a music there between the two.
- [42:28]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah, yeah. No, there is. I mean, Senegal is very much about me, frankly, investigating the very stories that gave me my name, you know, and gave me my identity, and trying to work through that, and frankly, not completely working through it by the time I got over there. And then, you know, I take this trip, you know, with this wonderful organization, a Palestinian Palestine Festival of Literature, and I get over there, you know, for Five days. And I spend another five days with these ex IDF guys, you know what I mean, who had had their own political evolution. And this is very weird to say, but as much sympathy as I had for the Palestinians, watching Zionism in the world, even feeling like this is wrong, what I'm saying is wrong. I was like, my God, I know how you get here. I know how you get. I know how it happens. And I don't mean, like, I approve of it, but I mean, like, I see. I see how it happens. I totally see how it happens, is.
- [43:26]
Host
How you see how it happens. Cause you talk about Yad Vashem and going there and being moved is the idea. Because you have a line in the book that I think is one of the most powerful, which is. And I want to make sure that I get it right, which is your oppression will not save you. Which is. And you write about that in relation to the black experience in America, but also about the Jewish experience in the Holocaust as well as in. In Israel. And what did you mean by that?
- [44:00]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I think we would like to think that you go through, you know, a horrific experience, be it the Middle Passage, Jim Crow here, be it the Holocaust or the centuries before that of pogroms, oppression, et cetera, and somehow you will be morally improved by coming out of that. Mm. You might be. You might be. But it's just as likely that you will conclude that, in fact, the world is a cold, hard place and it's a zero sum game. You know what I mean? And what matters is who has the guns and who doesn't.
- [44:33]
Host
Right.
- [44:33]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know, Um, I stand opposed to that just on principle, period. You know what I mean? Um, but I get how people take that lesson.
- [44:43]
Host
Right.
- [44:43]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know what I mean? And I think it's disconfitting for us to feel because we feel sympathy for people, you know what I mean? When we. Of course, you know, I'm walking through Yad Vashem and I'm feeling it on a very, very deep level, only to come back here and realize I was, you know, about a mile away from a massacre of a Palestinian village. That's hard to take.
- [45:03]
Host
Hey, it's.
- [45:04]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know what I mean?
- [45:05]
Host
Listen, I was. I'm raised in, obviously, cultural Jewish tradition, and I imagine, you know, if you were to feel like people in the name of your people did some things that you found objectionable, it hits you different.
- [45:20]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it does. It does. It does. And it's not a complete parallel, but that's why in that chapter, I wanted to talk a little bit about Liberia, for instance, you know what I mean? And just the idea, I get it, the appeal of, hey, we're gonna have a state of our own. We're gonna get away from these people that did, you know, X, Y and Z for us, we will have safety there. And yet then you find yourself enacting, you know, safety systems that if not are the same or similar, are at least, you know, morally deeply problematic.
- [45:46]
Guest 6 (Sarah Vowell)
Right.
- [45:46]
Host
And having to justify them through either threat or the situation or. You don't understand. And what I'm wondering is, is that the story, in a condensed form of all of us is. Does. Does. For society to progress, does there also have to be exponential. Do you grapple with this idea that when we think about anything, whether it's the American story or the Israeli story or any of those, it's stories of empire, whether it was the Ottoman Empire or the Caliphate, it's groups of people living under the grace of a leader who controls their lives. And can we progress outside of that? Is there, do you think about. Is there another way to do this? Has there been another way to do this?
- [46:37]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [46:38]
Host
If we shine that light on any country that grew through, won't there be a story of exploitation and mistreatment that we find maybe not as horrific, but we find it?
- [46:50]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah. I think, though, we have to guard against the temptation to accept that history is necessarily the limit of who we are as human beings. Just because, I mean, you know, that's been, you know, that it's been that way, that it necessarily has to be that way. I will, for instance, highlight, you know, the underlying role of nationalism and the belief that a nation state is the way to secure and safeguard a minority. That is a very recent development as a belief system, actually.
- [47:18]
Host
Right.
- [47:18]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know, that is not eternal. That's not.
- [47:20]
Host
But prior to that, wouldn't it have been tribalism or wouldn't it have been something.
- [47:25]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
It would have been a pope. It would have been, you know, my allegiance is, you know, X, Y and Z. But what I'm saying is it is not innate in us to say, I am of this ethnicity. We should all have a state together. And perhaps more importantly, we should deny rights to people who are not of that ethnicity.
- [47:40]
Host
Right.
- [47:40]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
We don't have to be that way. We don't have to be that way.
- [47:43]
Host
A man. From your lips to God's ears. I always wonder, you know, there was that. I can't remember the experiment, but it was. They assigned a class where people with brown hair got privileges.
- [47:56]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [47:56]
Host
And all of a sudden the people with blonde hair were like. And they got sad. And then the people with brown hair started to kind of abuse the people with blonde hair. And there's a part of me that thinks, boy, we could solve religious differences and somehow we would go back to killing each other over something else equally as arbitrary. And that I'm wondering how you get that, that zero sum game element that you witnessed up front out of it. Cause I'd like to believe it's not malevolence.
- [48:31]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Right.
- [48:32]
Host
But ignorance and fear.
- [48:35]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I think it's a lot of fear and frankly, I think it's a lot of anger.
- [48:38]
Host
Right.
- [48:39]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I think, and obviously for obvious reasons, you would know this better than me, but I sense that a lot of it is the humiliation of the Holocaust. I think that is, you know, very, very much present.
- [48:49]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Right.
- [48:50]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
And not feeling like I will never be in that position again.
- [48:53]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Sure.
- [48:53]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know, well, never.
- [48:55]
Host
I mean, never again.
- [48:57]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Right.
- [48:58]
Host
I think the thing that so many Jewish people and not everybody look, it's not a monolith either. Jewish religion, Jewish culture is certainly not a monolith. And there's many different opinions. I think if we start from a baseline of I would like a safe and secure Israel and a safe and secure Palestine, and that's my starting point to any argument. And then we're just talking strategy. But I think the idea of never again, you try to internalize it not just as a self defense kind of dictum. You hope to think of that as never again for anyone.
- [49:40]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Right, right.
- [49:41]
Host
And that's the part that feels the worst.
- [49:45]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [49:46]
Host
When you look at it in that way.
- [49:48]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:50]
Host
And I'm curious how you feel, you know, so in Africa, you know, I'm curious about what you think about this idea of diaspora.
- [49:58]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [49:59]
Host
When people are in diasporas and it carries this weight of you are lost, you are not in a place where you can, you know, I don't think Italian people who live in America think of themselves as, I'm in a diaspora. They think of themselves as like, I'll take a tour maybe when I'm old, you know what I mean? But Jewish people, black people, there's this feeling of somehow we're not safe. And I feel like that's a dangerous. That's a dangerous thing to do.
- [50:29]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Does it not come from being degraded and being made to feel like you are outside of the place that maybe you would like to call home? There's this great. That's interesting book, the Pity of It all. And it's about Jews in Germany Are.
- [50:46]
Host
You gonna make me read something else? No, no, no.
- [50:47]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
It's gonna be quick. I promise to be quick about this.
- [50:49]
Host
I'm still just getting through Breaking Bad. I can't even.
- [50:53]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
But it's all of these, you know, Jews who. All these German Jews who want to be German, right? Like, they really, really want to believe in Germany.
- [51:00]
Host
Right.
- [51:01]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
And they get the Holocaust.
- [51:03]
Host
Right.
- [51:03]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know what I mean? Like, that has to assault your sense of, you know, the idea that you can somehow be safe out of the country.
- [51:10]
Host
And then how much then does humiliation play a part in? All of it, including kind of what has been what we would consider the modern age version of exploitation and colonialism, like, was. I mean, even when we think about the regions that you were in that you went into were kind of a post World War I mandate that was drawn, you know, Lebanese, Syrian, Palestine mandate. The French are gonna take this, the English are gonna take that. I mean, it's. It's, you know, pawns on a board that people are moving around. And does that humiliate a region to the point where if we don't address that, we can't get through it?
- [51:48]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean, I will say that one of the hard things about that and getting a little too psychological about this is I spent 10 days there.
- [52:00]
Host
Oh, so you know it all.
- [52:01]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Exactly. Right.
- [52:04]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
One of the tough things was, I have to tell you, the perspective of Palestinians and the extent to which their perspective has been pushed so far out of the frame was incredible. I felt like I was seeing a new world.
- [52:17]
Host
Right.
- [52:17]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know what I mean? And that's, like, shameful for me to admit. I'm not bragging about that. You know, it's not. Cause that world wasn't there. That world doesn't, you know, hasn't been trying to present itself. But I mean, I just wonder how many of these conversations would be improved if our media organizations made a concerted effort whenever they talk about this topic, to ask, do we have anybody Palestinian that we've invited to be part of.
- [52:41]
Host
Allow it on the Democratic Convention floor? Yeah, I mean, I saw that. I think access to different stories has always been a difficulty for America in general because of that sort of solipsistic worldview. You know, we tend to be slightly narcissistic when it comes to the vision of it, and it's such a necessary thing. I wonder if it really improves it. I mean, here's something that I grapple with. I've known about it forever. I have friends who have Palestinian families Who've suffered through it. I have friends in Israel who suffered through it. And it sometimes feels as though the only people that benefit are the powers that be. And all these good people are so left behind by this weird power structure that we left in place there.
- [53:39]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:40]
Host
And I don't. But you bring up an interesting point, which is a path forward of reconciling humiliation. And I don't know what is the mechanism of that. Is there one? And is it that sort of, you know, you think about South Africa and truth and reconciliation, but is there a mechanism to heal that for people? Or is it purely self determination? And that's, you know.
- [54:05]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I don't know.
- [54:06]
Host
Well, that's all the time we have. I don't know, Donna. Let's see.
- [54:12]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
I don't know.
- [54:13]
Host
But it is. I wonder. Cause you bring up such an interesting. It is such a powerful river of emotion.
- [54:18]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Yeah.
- [54:19]
Host
And when you say. I can almost not cry talking about it.
- [54:21]
Announcer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:22]
Host
Because it so deeply gets at the heart of our humanity. Like people just want to be seen and just want to be. No.
- [54:34]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
And it's palpable. I could feel it.
- [54:35]
Host
Yeah.
- [54:36]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
You know, I could really feel. One thing I would suggest is. And we have actually had this struggle with this as African Americans, and I'll tell you this, from the black perspective, there is great, not always spoken shame in the black community over the kind of physical traumas we've endured. You have to understand, man, every single one of us, every single African American is a child of sexual violence. All of us.
- [55:07]
Host
Right?
- [55:07]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
All of us. There is not a single pure African. African American who came through asleep. There is an amount of humiliation in that. There is an amount of humiliation in watching. And I've written about this, you know, films from the 60s, and watching these kids and these children, you know, get beaten by the cops. There is humiliation. And, you know, watching today, you know what I mean? George Floyd, you know, a knee on his neck. And I do think, you know, a significant part of it is understanding, particularly with the past. These people didn't want to be enslaved. You know what I mean? These people didn't want to get beaten. And it's not true that these people did nothing. It's not true that these people just willingly, you know, went to it. There was a slogan out for a while that a lot of us shouted down, we are not our ancestors. As if to say, we somehow are more, you know, resilient and resistant. You know what I mean? We're not gonna be punked and chumped yes, we would've. If we had been them, the same thing would've happened. We're no better, we're no braver.
- [56:03]
Host
You know, there's such an analog with that, with the Jewish community. And there is, you know, and you hear it a lot about, you know, the first thing Hitler did is he disarmed the Jews. And you're like, the Jews were not like gun toting mother. He wasn't like, you know, if you were taking our violins, maybe that would've been something like, oh, they disarmed the Jews. And that's how Hitler was able to get the Jews to do that. And you're like, oh, you know, who had guns and didn't do too well with Hitler? France. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. But you're right, there's that sense of like, how could you let your people, how could you allow that to happen? And it does skew their perspectives. And I can already see your next.
- [56:46]
Guest 1 (Roxane Gay)
Book.
- [56:49]
Host
Where you fix it all. It's really, it's an amazing piece. And the main thing is, and listen, man, like, let's not kid ourselves. Once you delve into Israel, Palestine, you're take a ton of shit. I don't know where it's. It'll come from everywhere. And I hope you don't wear it personally, but you've done the most important thing.
- [57:11]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Can I just say one quick thing?
- [57:12]
Host
Yes, please.
- [57:13]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
It will not measure up to the burdens of what I saw Palestinians on the west bank bearing. It's not even.
- [57:20]
Host
That's an excellent point. The only point I was gonna make is through your discomfort, albeit not the same discomfort, you've done the most important thing, which is try to advance and delve into an understanding of a complexity that we haven't figured out in 10,000 years. And so I applaud that. And your writing, as always, is so beautiful and moving. So thank you so much for being here. The message Coach. We're going to take a quick break. I really man explore more shows from.
- [57:56]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
The Daily show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the.
- [58:02]
Host
Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on.
- [58:05]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
Comedy Central and stream full episodes and anytime on Paramount.
- [58:08]
Host
Plus.
- [58:12]
Guest 2 (Ta-Nehisi Coates)
This has been a Comedy Central podcast.
- [58:16]
Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless.
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Host
So here's the idea.
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Guest 3 (David Rakoff)
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Host
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