Trump Bails Out Farmers & Sean Duffy and RFK Jr. Pitch Airport "Improvements" | Cory Doctorow

Summary

The Daily Show: Ears Edition

Episode Title: Trump Bails Out Farmers & Sean Duffy and RFK Jr. Pitch Airport "Improvements" | Cory Doctorow
Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Roy Chang (for this episode)
Guest: Cory Doctorow

Episode Overview

This episode of The Daily Show is a satirical whirlwind through timely political headlines, centering on the Trump administration's controversial approaches to national parks, farmer bailouts, and airport "improvements," before turning to a sharp, insightful interview with digital rights activist and author Cory Doctorow. The show, packed with signature irreverence, critiques government stunts, lampoons bureaucracy, and delivers a thoughtful conversation about technology, monopolies, and the future of the internet.

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Key Segments & Takeaways

1. Trump's National Parks & Farmer Bailout (01:34 - 07:00)

Major Discussion Points

• Trump's New National Park Policy

  • National parks now offer free admission on Trump's birthday (Flag Day) but remove free days on Martin Luther King Jr. Day and Juneteenth.
  • The hosts riff on the absurdity and probable motivations behind the change.
    • “No word on why Trump made these changes to MLK Day and Juneteenth at the national parks. I mean, what reason could that be?” (02:18, Roy Chang)
    • "If you're a black bear right now, you're hibernating with one eye open." (02:37, Roy Chang)

• Farmers & the Trade Wars

  • Trump’s tariffs have hit farmers hard, with a sharp increase in bankruptcies.
  • Announced a $12 billion bailout—far short of the $44 billion in losses farmers actually incurred.
    • “Basically, Trump f**ed up the economy so badly that now he has to bail out farmers, and he can only afford to give them less than a third of what they lost.”* (04:23, Roy Chang)
  • Satirical comparison between Trump and a movie villain who takes away family farms, yet farmers continue to support him.

• Memorable Farmer Quote

  • A farmer recounts his son’s Christmas wish:
    • “Daddy, I don’t want Santa Claus to come to our house for Christmas. I want President Trump.” (06:05)

Tone

• Sharp sarcasm, political satire, mocking incredulity at political theater.

---

2. Satirical Look at Santa & Melania, Toys for Tots (07:00 - 08:30)

Highlights

• Melania Trump visits a military base to promote Toys for Tots.
• Comedy sketches about “Slovenian Christmas erotic fan fiction” and double entendres involving Santa.
  • "Santa climbed aboard my Osprey and he pulled out his sack of goodies. Then he showed me North Pole." (07:33, Roy Chang)
• Continues the running gag of Trump as an awkward surrogate for Santa Claus.

---

3. Airport “Improvements”—Sean Duffy & RFK Jr. (08:30 - 13:26)

Major Discussion Points

• Sean Duffy’s Airport Upgrades

  • Announces a $1 billion grant to improve airport experiences.
  • Mocked for proposing extra TSA lanes, larger play areas for kids (“pandemic laboratories”), and even airport workout centers.
    • "You think people want to work out in transit at the airport? ...They had to invent floors that walk for us." (09:07; 09:15, Roy Chang)

• RFK Jr.’s Nursing Pods

  • Advocates for more nursing pods, then pivots awkwardly into breast milk evangelism.
    • "All of the ingenuity of corporate America has not produced an infant formula that is superior in nutrition ... than what's in God-given breast milk." (10:26, RFK Jr.)
    • “What’s the nipple version of a boner killer?... Nipples are so soft right now.” (10:53, Roy Chang)

• Pull-Up Bar Solution

  • Duffy and RFK Jr. compete in a Pull-Up contest at the terminal.
  • Mock government ad campaign for mandatory airport exercise equipment.
    • "Fixing delays and cancellations is complicated, but you know what’s not? A simple iron bar between two posts." (13:04, DOT parody)

Notable Quotes

• “You might as well open a Wuhan wet market next to a Cinnabon.” (08:47, Roy Chang)
• “If we’re all sweaty, then no one’s sweaty.” (12:53, Roy Chang, DOT parody)

Tone

• Farcical, caustic, parodying government absurdity.

---

4. Satirical Award Show Coverage: “Who Won it Best” (15:29 - 22:24)

Highlights & Jokes

• Mock coverage of various ceremonies, most notably:
  • FIFA World Cup Draw in Peace Prize ceremony, where Donald Trump is ironically awarded a peace prize.
    • "Please welcome the very first winner of the FIFA Peace Prize, the 45th and 47th President of the United States of America, Mr. Donald J. Trump." (16:51, Troy)
    • “He picked up that medal with all the grace and dignity of a man holding a used condom on his way to the trash.” (17:57, Desi)
  • Running jokes about awkward acceptance speeches, especially Trump's:
    • "I want to thank, by the way, my family, my great first lady, Melania. You’re right here. And thank you very much." (18:23, Trump)
    • “Only Donald Trump could state his wife’s physical location and then just move on.” (18:50, Desi)
  • Over-the-top, fake award presentation and musical acts by the Village People.
• General satire about political celebrity culture and meaningless accolades.

---

5. Cory Doctorow Interview: “Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse” (24:08 - 40:26)

Main Discussion Points

What is “Inshitification”? (24:44 - 28:57)

• Definition & Stages (with Facebook as an example):

  • Stage 1: Platforms attract users by being good to them and locking them in.
  • Stage 2: Prioritize businesses/advertisers, make things worse for users.
  • Stage 3: Make it worse for both users and businesses; only platform benefits.
  • Final stage: Total collapse/irrelevance—the “giant pile of shit.”

  “Enshittification is this dirty word I came up with to describe how platforms go bad.” (25:28, Cory Doctorow) "...he can make life worse for you and you'll stay there. So that's stage two. Making things good for business customers by making them bad for end users." (26:34, Cory Doctorow) "...that's the final stage of inshittification. The giant pile of shit." (28:56, Cory Doctorow)

Is Platform Decay Inevitable? (29:33 - 31:10)

• Doctorow argues the process isn’t inevitable; it’s enabled by policy, not simply economics or consumer behavior.
  • “The real culprits are the policymakers who created the enshitogenic policy environment that guarantees that people who do the worst things in the worst way will make the most money.” (30:15, Doctorow)

Nostalgia & the Old Internet (34:55 - 36:57)

• Rejects the idea that a democratized internet must be terrible just because more people can use it; criticizes the narrative that “normies” are to blame.
  • “Nostalgia is a toxic impulse. And I'm not nostalgic here. ...My goal is to build a new good Internet ... and we get rid of the parasitic billionaires who sit in the middle and ruin everything.” (35:44–36:57, Doctorow)

Doctorow’s Four-Point Plan for Reform (37:30 - 39:47)

1. Antitrust Action
   • Restore competition; break up monopolies.
   • "We can do antitrust again. ...It's a long term project. Right. The best time to prevent monopoly formation is right now during a MAGA presidency." (37:30-37:55, Doctorow & Roy Chang)
2. Regulate at State/Local Level
   • Even if federal resistance exists, use state power.
3. Unionize Tech Workers
   • Tech workers (including those outside engineering) need organized power.
   • “…Tech workers had the mistaken belief that they were temporarily embarrassed founders and that they didn’t need a union ...” (38:12, Doctorow)
4. Restore Interoperability
   • Make it legal/possible to have software/services interact, as in the early internet.
   • "It would be cheaper to print your grocery list with the semen of a Kentucky Derby winning stallion." (39:17, Doctorow, on ink price-gouging enabled by lack of interoperability)
   • Interoperability would let users escape bad platforms without losing their communities.

Final Thoughts

• The problem isn't ordinary internet users but platform gatekeepers.
• Doctorow’s vision: return power and flexibility to users.

---

Notable Quotes

• Roy Chang:
  "If you're a black bear right now, you're hibernating with one eye open." (02:37)
  "You might as well open a Wuhan wet market next to a Cinnabon." (08:47)

• Cory Doctorow:
  "The real culprits are the policymakers who created the enshitogenic policy environment…" *"Nostalgia is a toxic impulse. And I'm not nostalgic here." "We get rid of the parasitic billionaires who sit in the middle and ruin everything." (36:57)
  "It would be cheaper to print your grocery list with the semen of a Kentucky Derby winning stallion." (39:17)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:34] – National parks policy changes
• [03:04] – Farmer bailouts, Trump’s economic spin
• [07:00] – Melania, Toys for Tots, Santa parodies
• [08:30] – Sean Duffy and RFK Jr. airport proposals
• [13:26] – Mock government pull-up bar ad
• [15:29] – “Who Won It Best” (award show satire)
• [16:51] – Trump receives FIFA Peace Prize (fake segment)
• [18:23] – Trump’s award speech: “You’re right here, Melania.”
• [24:08] – Cory Doctorow interview begins
• [25:28] – Explanation of “enshittification”
• [30:15] – Policymakers’ role in tech decay
• [37:30] – Doctorow’s four-point tech reform plan
• [39:46] – Interoperability explained

---

Conclusion

This episode blends satiric skewering of governmental follies with a nuanced, engaging interview about the internet’s degeneration and how to fix it. The hosts provide comic relief on heavy topics, while Cory Doctorow delivers a clear-eyed, actionable critique of platform monopolies and a vision for rebuilding a better digital ecosystem.

Useful for:
Anyone who wants to understand the political theater around Trump-era policies, enjoy biting political satire, or gain real insight into technology’s recent decline and what’s required for a healthier future online.

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This summary covers all main content, excludes ads/intros/outros, and preserves the irreverent, satirical tone of the hosts and guests.

Transcript

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You're listening to Comedy Central.

From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central. It's America's only source for news. This is the Daily show with your host, Ronnie T.

[A]

Welcome to the Daily Show. I'm Roy Chang. We got so much to talk about tonight. Trump pretends to care about soccer. Our national parks has got a little extra nationalist. And RFK Jr tells you the best way to feed your baby before he gives it measles. So let's get into the headlines.

Let's kick things off with national parks. You know that thing you see when you fall asleep in front of the Apple tv? They're one of America's most treasured institutions. And now the Trump administration is making some exciting changes.

[B]

The National Park Service this morning, making changes to which day Americans can enter national parks for free.

[A]

Now adding President Trump's birthday, which falls on Flag Day. And removing Martin Luther King Jr. Day. And also Juneteenth. No word on why these changes were made. Removing MLK Day and Juneteenth from that calendar. Yeah, no word on why Trump made these changes to MLK Day and Juneteenth at the national parks. I mean, what reason could that be? All I know is if you're a black bear right now, you're hibernating with one eye open. But at least he gave us a different free day. And I know you're gonna say, bo, he's trying to make his birthday into a national holiday, blah, blah, blah. But no, it's for Flag Day. You know, Flag Day, that holiday we all know and love.

Where we stop whatever we're doing to go to a national park and celebrate flags and Speaking of people who love the great outdoors, let's talk about farmers. They grow all the fruits and vegetables that rot in the back of our fridges. But they've had a tough time lately, thanks to Trump's tariffs, which have contributed to a 50% increase in farmers going bankrupt this year. But don't worry, farmers. Someone is coming to save you from Donald Trump. It's Donald Trump.

[B]

The Trump administration is giving America's farmers a financial lifeline as the country deals with the fallout from the president's trade wars. The president today unveiled a $12 billion aid package for farmers.

[A]

We love our farmers. And as you know, the farmers like me.

[D]

It's true.

[A]

Farmers do love Trump. They do love him, even though he looks like the villain in a movie where someone loses their family farm. Like, you know how there'll be a scene where he drives up in a limo and he says to the family, this is all gonna be a shopping mall and I'm through with you dumb hicks. And then all the farmers say, we love you, President Trump. Make America great again. Look, I don't know why they like him, okay? Maybe it's because his son scares away all the crows. I don't know. But.

The point is, after screwing them with his trade policies, he's unscrewing them with a $12 billion bailout, which is great. I mean, that's gotta be all the money they lost, right? Maybe even more that $12 billion aid package trying to help offset $44 billion in farming losses this year. Okay, hang on. Let me just do some quick math here. Yeah, I think Kerry the one. And yes, 12 is less than 44. So basically, Trump up the economy so badly that now he has to bail out farmers, and he can only afford to give them less than a third of what they lost. Now, how do you rate an economy like that?

[B]

But I do want to talk about the economy, sir, here at home. And I wonder what grade you would give a economy. A plus.

[A]

A plus plus plus plus plus.

Amazing. A plus plus plus plus plus. I mean, that's the same score he got in his mri.

This feels like when your kid goes to, like, a Montessori school. And the grading makes no sense. Wait, is a better than a four leaf clover? Like, what does a little cow mean? Hey, look, can you read or not? But despite all that, the farmers at the White House did seem happy to be getting anything at all. Although one of them did have a special request. It's Christmas early for farmers. The other day, I was reading my little boy a Story at night, putting him to bed, and he said, daddy, I don't want Santa Claus to come to our house for Christmas.

[D]

I want President Trump.

[A]

Guys, of course a kid wants Trump instead of Santa, okay? You don't have to be good all year to get on his nice list. You just have to buy enough of his crypto. Also, if you think about it, Trump and Santa aren't that different, right? They're both old men, very famous, and they've both been to Epstein Island. Okay, no, relax, okay? Santa went to deliver gifts. There were kids there, remember?

No, you. What?

[D]

You.

[A]

You think just because they're sex slaves, they don't deserve presents?

That's up.

While Trump was plotting to replace Santa, the First lady spent the day with the OG himself. And boy, does she look happier than I've seen her in a.

They were at a military base to promote Toys for Tots, where Melania read some traditional Slovenian Christmas erotic fan fiction. So with his sleigh parked safely with his reindeer, Santa climbed aboard my Osprey and couldn't stop smiling.

Wow, this is so hot.

Santa climbed aboard my Osprey and he pulled out his sack of goodies.

Then he showed me North Pole.

But Christmas isn't just about Santa. It's about visiting family. And Trump's Transportation secretary, Sean Duffy, is trying to make that a more pleasant experience for everybody. So I'm announcing at DOT that we have $1 billion in. In funding for grant programs to make the experience better in airports. Maybe you want to have a different lane for families to get through tsa. How are you the transportation secretary? And your big idea is the same one every annoyed dad has at the airport. It's like, hey, just open another lane. Yeah, your secondary of transportation. Okay. Any more great ideas? It might be, I want to expand the play areas for kids. Expand the airport play areas? Those things are basically pandemic laboratories. It's like, hey, I have an idea. How about every kid from around the world gets together and swabs viruses before they get on a new flight?

You might as well open a Wuhan wet market next to a Cinnabon. All right, But.

Okay, Sean Duffy, come on. I'll give you one more try. Maybe I want a workout area where people might get some blood flow in. Doing some pull ups or some step ups in the airport.

You think people want to work out in transit at the airport?

Everyone at the airport is already exhausted from traveling, alright? We can't even walk to the gate. They had to invent floors that walk for us.

Also, this Is the same guy who wants us to dress up when we fly. So what now I'm doing pull ups in a tuxedo before I jump on a 12 hour flight to Hawaii. Why don't you just throw in a hot yoga room in the terminal so everyone really smells like shit when they board the plane?

And weirdly Enough, everyone's favorite RFK. RFK Jr. Was also at this press conference for some reason. What's RFK Jr. S genius solution for making airports better? Another experience that I've had with all these kids in airports is the availability of nursing spaces. Nursing pods.

Okay.

You know, that's actually a nice sentiment from RFK Jr. It should be more convenient to nurse in public spaces. And I assumed he stopped talking before things got weird. All of the ingenuity of corporate America has not produced an infant formula that.

[C]

Is superior in nutrition and all the.

[A]

Qualities that we want to. The infant formula that God made, which is the infant formula in a mother's breast.

[C]

There is no better food than what's in God given breast milk.

[A]

Okay, he found a way to make it weird.

What's the nipple version of a boner killer? I mean.

Nipples are so soft right now. Um, I mean, I'm surprised he didn't stop, sniff the air, and then announce that a nearby reporter was on her moon.

If RFK wasn't behind a podium, he would get arrested by airport security.

Just yelling in the terminal. Praise God for mother's breaths.

Also, why is he saying it like he got an endorsement deal with titty juice?

Use promo code brainwarm for 10% off your next sucker.

Of course, the press conference ended the same way all government press conferences do, with a masculinity contest. Check this out.

[D]

It's Bobby Kennedy doing pull ups at Reagan International Airport in D.C. hE& Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy had a friendly pull up competition as they were encouraging travelers to exercise while they wait.

[A]

Yeah, looks good. Yeah.

Go measure your dicks. Measure your dicks.

Now. You might think that this pull up idea is stupid, but wait till you see the Department of Transportation's latest video. As under secretary for the Department of.

[D]

Transportation, we hear your complaints. The delays, the cancellations, the hidden fees.

[A]

And we're doing something about it. Introducing one pull up bar. When air travel's got you down, pull up.

[B]

Can you just make the security line move faster?

[A]

Of course, we know the faster you get through security, the faster you can get in line for the pull up bar. Which is why we're also introducing pull up pre check. It's to guarantee you'll get your pull ups in.

[B]

I don't want to do pull ups.

[D]

That's fair.

[A]

Fortunately, with one simple adjustment, your pull ups can be chin ups.

[B]

But then everyone on the airplane is going to be all sweaty.

[D]

We hear you.

[A]

And that's why we're adding a second pull up bar. One that you can do pull ups on. If we're all sweaty, then no one's sweaty.

[B]

No, then we're all just sweaty. How about you fix delays and cancellations?

[D]

Fixing delays and cancellations is complicated, but you know what's not? A simple iron bar between two posts.

[A]

I'm talking about a pull up bar. I know from all of us at the Department of Transportation and pull ups. Thanks for watching. And remember, if your flight's not working out, at least you can work out.

[D]

But only four.

[A]

When we come back, we check in on award season, so don't go away.

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[A]

Welcome back to the Daily show it's award season, the only season that hasn't been up by climate change. So let's get all the latest award show news in another edition of who won it Best.

[B]

Welcome to who won it Best, where we cover the only reason to do anything awards. I'm NAACP Image award winner Desi Lydic.

[A]

And I'm Troy.

[D]

Wait, what?

[B]

Let's kick things off with the mother of all ceremonies. Say it with me.

[A]

The FIFA World Cup Draw in Peace Prize ceremony. You know, I always look forward to the FIFA World cup draw in Peace Prize ceremony.

[B]

Oh, huge fan of the FIFA World Cup Draw in Peace Prize ceremony.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. You know what my favorite thing about the FIFA World cup draw and peace Prize ceremony is?

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

You know, I love a World cup draw, and I love a peace prize ceremony, but with the FIFA World cup draw and Peace Prize ceremony, you get both a World cup draw and a peace prize ceremony.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. You know what that is? That's fun.

[D]

It's fun.

[B]

It's so fun. And you'll never guess who won the peace prize.

[A]

Jojo Siwa.

[C]

Close.

[B]

Donald Trump.

[A]

Please welcome the very first winner of the FIFA Peace Prize, the 45th and 47th President of the United States of America, Mr. Donald J. Trump.

Gorgeous. Gorgeous. You know, now that's a trophy that will make you turn your head and cough. Oh.

[B]

I haven't seen that many hands tickling a Southern hemisphere since Bible camp.

[A]

Oh, no.

[D]

Uh.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

But this wasn't just about giving the president some trophy. It was also about giving him a medal and a certificate.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Three things. There is also a beautiful medal for you that you can wear everywhere you want to go.

Right now. Okay. Fantastic. Excellent.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

That's fun.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

That's so fun.

[C]

Amazing.

[B]

It's so fun. He picked up that medal with all the grace and dignity of a man holding a used condom on his way to the trash.

[A]

That's amazing.

Incredible.

[D]

Incredible.

[A]

And you know what?

[D]

He's never used one, so.

[A]

What a natural.

[B]

This brings us to my favorite part of award shows, the acceptance speeches.

Especially when the winner thanks her spouse. It is so moving.

[A]

I want to thank, by the way, my family, my great first lady, Melania. You're right here. And thank you very much.

That.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

That is so true. She was right there.

[B]

She really was. She was right there.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Right there. She was.

[A]

Who was right there?

[B]

She was right there.

[A]

You know, unless her husband would say something like, I love you or you're my rock. But only Donald Trump could state his wife's physical Location and then just move on.

[B]

That was a beautiful moment. But did you know that the FIFA World cup draw in Peace prize ceremony also contains a World cup draw?

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Let's start with the draw. I will just show you how it works. You have to basically mingle the balls a little bit. You can see. I show this for the public. You see?

[C]

Mingle.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

I haven't seen balls mingled like that since Bible camp.

[A]

Oh, my God. Someday they're going to make you stop going to that camp.

[B]

I hope not.

Then it was time for the grand finale. A performance by our village's finest people.

[A]

It's fun to see the. Why you see it. It's fun to stay at the Y U sea.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Wow. I can't believe the village people were available.

[B]

You know, I think they live at the Kennedy center now. Last time I was there, I saw the cowboy bathing himself in the sink.

[A]

That's so fun. So fun. He has great stuff.

[B]

Ugh. Lather up, partner. What a day for Trump. Hanging with celebrities and receiving an award. The sacrifices this man makes for our country.

[A]

Exactly.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

The man never stops because he was at another awards ceremony a mere 22 hours later. That's barely enough time to sleep and eat.

[B]

How does he do it? Why does he do it? Who cares? It was time for the Kennedy Center Honors, part one of the three.

[A]

Sylvester. Sly Stallone. Sly. Thank you. This is great. Sly, it's an honor. Oh, thank you.

Members of the incredible rock band Kiss. It's a great idea, my friend, for a long time. Thank you, mister. Thank you very much.

[B]

Oh, I love the sensual whispers. The whispers. You're so sensual and you're so whispery. There's nothing like a she will whisper. I want to leave my husband.

[A]

And of course.

He had to honor Kiss. Kiss is Trump's favorite band and favorite thing to do to a woman without asking. Now, personally, I love to ask. Watch. Desi, may I kiss you?

[B]

Where?

[A]

On the lips.

[B]

Which ones?

[A]

The ones on your face.

[B]

Then no.

[A]

And see.

[B]

Now, this medal ceremony was just the appetizer. The main course was the actual Kennedy Center Honors on Sunday night. And you'll never guess who hosted.

[A]

JoJo siwa.

[B]

Close. Donald Trump.

[A]

You're gonna have a great time because you just listen to music, and if Trump is no good, you'll say to hell with him. Just listen to the music. I want to listen to the music. Get off the stage.

Well, clearly that MRI revealed a funny bone.

[B]

I can't believe that this is the first time a president has hosted this ceremony. What were all the other presidents doing that was more important than hosting an award show?

[A]

I don't know.

[D]

Beats me.

[A]

I know. Honestly, we'll never know.

[B]

I guess we'll never know.

[A]

Sometimes it's good to not know the truth.

[B]

We won't know.

[A]

Anyway, this is our last. Who won it? Best of 20, 25.

And so before we go, I just want to say, Desi, you are right there.

[D]

Oh.

[A]

Troy.

Okay. Thank you, Denzy and Troy. When we come back, Corey Daltreau will be joining me on the show. So don't go away.

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[A]

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax.

[B]

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[A]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is a journalist, Internet activist and author whose latest book is called.

Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and what to Do About It. Please welcome the one and only Mr. Karl Cory Doctorow.

Thank you.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

What a dance. You're welcome.

So nice. Thank you. You're a legend, man. I've been reading you since I was in college.

[D]

I am so honored to hear that. I also feel very old.

[A]

Yeah. So one of your superpowers, I feel, is that you always manage to explain important Internet digital rights concepts in a very simple manner. So what is unshidification?

[D]

Well, it's. You know, I've worked for this nonprofit called the Electronic Frontier foundation, sort of a digital human rights group for 25 years. And I've been. Thank you. And I've been trying to. I've been trying to.

Easy. Now I'm trying to get people to care about tech policy all that time. And of course, it's very abstract and it's very technical. It's hard to make it urgent. And I've come up with all kinds of metaphors and so on. Turns out that the secret is you let people swear and suddenly they become very engaged with the subject.

[A]

Some works for me every single time.

[D]

So enchinification is this dirty word I came up with to describe how platforms go bad. And I don't know if you want me to go through the stages of inshidification.

[A]

Yeah, sure, I think it will help.

[D]

I like to use Facebook as an example. They're kind of the canonical example here. So in stage one of inshidification, a platform is good to its end users, but it locks them in. So Facebook in 2006 opens up to the general public and they say, like, look, I know all of you have an account on MySpace, but I don't know if you realize this MySpace is owned by like this evil, crapulent, senescent, immortal vampire Australian billionaire named Rupert Murdoch who spies on you with every hour that God sends. And the last thing anyone should ever want is to be on social media owned by a billionaire that spies on you. Right? So come to Facebook and we'll never spy on you, and we'll just show you the things you asked to see. And so we pile in and we lock ourselves in because you love your friends, but they're a pain in the ass and you can't agree on what board game you're going to play this weekend. So you definitely can't agree on when it's time to leave Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg knows this and he understands that so long as you love your friends more than you hate him, he can make life worse for you and you'll stay there. So that's stage two. Making things good for business customers by making them bad for end users. So he goes to advertisers and he says, do you remember we told these rubes we weren't going to spy on them? Obviously, that was a lie. We spy on them from asshole to appetite. And if you give us a remarkably small amount of money, we will target ads to them with exquisite fidelity. And because we're such dedicated craftspeople, we've got this whole building full of anti fraud engineers who are going to make sure that when you give us a dollar to show an ad to a kind of user, we're going to stuff that ad in that user's face. And then he goes to the publishers and he says, do you remember we told these suckers we were only going to show them the things they asked to see, also a lie. Take stuff from your website, put it on my website, add a link to the bottom. We'll cram it into the eyeballs of people who never asked to see it. Some of them will click the link. Free traffic. So they pile in. They get locked in too. They become dependent on us. And then in stage three of inches, it's being Facebook.

No, on us, the users. So we're locked to each other. The businesses are locked to us. Now stage three, they make things worse for the business, customers too. Ad targeting fidelity goes way down. Ad prices go way up. Ad fraud explodes. Procter and Gamble in 2017 zeroed out its $200 million per year surveillance advertising spend. Saw a zero dollar drop in sales because to a first approximation, all those ads disappeared down the fraud hole. Advertisers had to put the whole article if they wanted it shown just to their subscribers, let alone recommend it. So they're fully substitutive now. No one's going to their website and the only way to monetize it is with this corrupt ad network. And we like, we've got this feed that has like got this homeopathic residue of stuff we asked to see. The void is filled with things people pay billions of dollars to show us and they're getting robbed blind. So this is like ideal for Facebook. All the value is withdrawn except for the minimum needed. But it's kind of a brittle equilibrium because the difference between I hate Facebook, but I can't seem to stop coming here and I hate Facebook and I'm not coming back. Facebook panics. Being technical people, they have a technical term for panicking. They call it pivoting. And so Mark Zuckerberg, one morning he arises from his sarcophagus and he says, hearken to me brothers and sisters, for I have had a vision. I know I told you that your future would be arguing with your most racist, racist uncle using this primitive text interface I invented so that I could non consensually rate the ability of Harvard undergraduates. However, the true future is that I will convert you and everyone you love into a legless, sexless, low polygon, heavily surveilled cartoon character so that I can imprison you in this virtual world. I stole from a 25 year old satirical dystopian cyberpunk novel that I call the Metaverse. And that is the final stage of inshittification. The giant pile of shit.

[A]

Okay, so.

So everything's fine then. Great, yeah. So I mean implicit in that is this idea that stage one of engineification was that they provided something that people wanted to use.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

There was something good there.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, people found friends, they made communities. We got MeToo out of it, we got Black Lives Matter out of it. We got all kinds of social movements because people were able to find each other. Sure. I mean, the problem with Facebook isn't that you had a place to talk to your friends. The problem with Facebook is that once you were locked in because you loved your friends, Mark Zuckerberg or Mark Zuckerberg could ruin your life and know you weren't gonna leave.

[A]

Right. So one interesting thing about this book is it's written very, it's very easy to read. The first couple of chapters is case studies. Yeah. So you go through Twitter, you go through Facebook, you go through Amazon, you list the. It's location of these platforms. Like what isn't. So it seems like it's almost inevitable. This and certification, every platform you can name. Is that a platform that.

[D]

Sure. Yeah. So I don't think it's inevitable. So there's like a kind of simplistic answer to this which is like, oh well, you, the almighty consumer, failed to shop with sufficient care. And so because you weren't willing to pay for the product, you became the product and it's all your fault. I think that's nonsense. It's like you didn't recycle hard enough. And that's why there's a wildfire. Right. Your consumption choices aren't what dictated this stuff. There's also a temptation to say, oh well, it's these like ketamine, adult zucker muskie and failures that are running the world. And clearly they're terrible people, but they're just filling a void that was created by policy, you know? Elon Musk pops his clogs tonight from too much Ketamine. There will be an overnight succession battle and 12 horrible big battles. Big balls will battle to the death and whoever emerges victorious will be indistinguishable from him. The real culprits are the policymakers who created the enshitogenic policy environment that guarantees that people who do the worst things in the worst way will make the most money. In living memory. Named individuals took policy decisions that they were warned about at the time that this would be the end result. They did it anyway. And they walk around polishing their fake Nobel prizes in economics, doing six figure consulting jobs for blue chip companies and never worrying that someone's sizing them up for a pitchfork. And this is one of the Things I aim to change with this book. Sure.

[A]

And, I mean, you're referring to lawmakers.

[D]

And lawmakers, regulators, economists, regulators, sure. But how many.

[A]

How much of this is. Look, I mean, I'm with you. Everything is getting. It feels like everything's getting shitty. How much of this is just, yo, hey, I'm talking to you at home. Watching this on the Internet. Get the off of social media. Just get the off it. Get off of Twitter, get off this.

[D]

I mean, I wish it was that simple, right? But if you're on Facebook, because that's where the people who have the same rare disease as you are hanging out, or that's the only way you can stay in touch with the family you left behind when you emigrated, it's okay.

[A]

Forget about them. Sorry.

[D]

I mean, I hear you, right? But it's a big lift, right? It is a big lift. And the thing is, it doesn't have to be. You know, when Facebook was trying to get users off of MySpace, they didn't say, oh, come to Facebook. Read our superior privacy policy in smug solidarity or solitude until your dumb friends get the message and join you. They gave them a bot. And you gave that bot your login and password, and it went to MySpace several times a day, grabbed everything waiting for you, impersonating you, put it in your Facebook feed, and you could reply to it. That's called interoperability. And over the last 20 years, we've expanded IP law to make that kind of stuff illegal. When Mark Zuckerberg did it to Rupert Murdoch, that's progress. We do it to Mark Zuckerberg, that's piracy. With these guys, it's always disruption for thee and never for me. We could change the policy environment so that we could evacuate the platforms, right? But if we just shatter the platforms, we shatter all those communities that matter to people, and they really do matter. That's how we get solidarity.

[A]

I don't know. I hate everyone on social media, so I'm having. But, okay, but then. Even if. Even if what you're saying is true, then.

Maybe this is just a natural cycle of capitalism meeting innovation, in that these ideas start. They start pure. They start with connecting humans. Money gets involved so they can connect more humans, and then it corrupts everything, and then the whole thing turns to shit, and then it's on us to move over to the next thing or quit it.

[D]

You know, so historically, that's the way it worked, right? But historically, we had antitrust laws that we enforced, which we did for four years under Biden. We've stopped doing now except for companies anti.

[A]

Why do we start doing that?

[D]

Because there's this guy who's decided that he's just going to use it against companies that aren't sufficiently deferential to him and don't give him a little gold trophy that they assemble for him. Well, that's what they're doing. So you know these companies, they bought all their competitors, right? Google, like it's not Willy Wonka's idea factory, it's rich uncle penny bags, right? They buy other people's toys and play with them. You take away Google's predatory acquisitions, they wouldn't have a mobile stack, they wouldn't have an ad tech stack, they wouldn't have server management, they wouldn't have document collaboration, wouldn't have navigation, they haven't made a successful consumer facing product in this millennium, right? Everything they make dies. They only have successful products when they buy them from other people and operationalize them. So you know, this isn't, we're talking.

[A]

Mad shit about Google right now, mate.

[D]

But it's not like this fell on our heads or the iron laws of economics dictated it. We decided not to enforce antitrust law. And the economists who said, oh no, monopolies are actually good today when we're like surrounded by monopolies, they're like, how do you know it's our fault? This is like we used to not have a rat problem because we used rat poison. And these guys said you don't need the rat poison. Rats are eating our faces off. And they're like, why do you think that's my fault? Right? Maybe it's like sunspots that ushered in the time of the rat by making them more fecund than at any time in human history. And yes, it's true the rats did buy the rat poison factories and shut them down, but we're not using rat poison anymore. That's just Pareto optimal economically rational behavior, right? So like these are not mysterious causes. You have to have the kind of specific neurological injury that you can only get by paying for an economics degree to not understand how this arose.

[A]

Okay, so your solution is to just increase pressure from regulators?

[D]

No, I think we have like four levers we can pull on to make the tech platforms work better in us. What used to make them work better?

[A]

Oh, sorry, before you go on to that, I just forget this because you're hitting me with a lot here. How much of this is just this nostalgia play for the old Internet, you know, and we've had nostalgia even before Internet. We've had nostalgia for the films used to be better. Typhoid used to be better back in the day. So it's like maybe there's this nostalgia playing your head of this older Internet that was made by the smartest people on the planet that Only the next 10% of smart people could use. And we had this Internet where it was just a very good faith, altruistic thing that people are trying to problem solve. And now we just. We've democratized the Internet to a point where anyone can log on from their toilet seat. And so now you have a bunch of morons on the Internet. And so, yes, things have gotten shittier. But it's gotten shittier because all the dumb asses have gone to the Internet now.

[D]

And some of us had very long ethernet cables that would reach our bathrooms even back then. So, to quote one of my favorite TDS alum, John Hodgman, nostalgia is a toxic impulse. And I'm not nostalgic here. I think that we did have an old good Internet and that the failings of the old good Internet were not that we had a place where we could change how it worked, or when tech companies screwed us over, we could alter how their technology worked. The feelings was that our normie friends couldn't use it. Because I like a lot of the people who couldn't figure out how to use ppp.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

And I'm glad that they showed up. The thing is that tech bosses want you to think that having normies accessible on the Internet is somehow inseparable from them harming us. Right. That there's no way you could have friends without Mark Zuckerberg being in the conversation. There's no way you can search the Internet without Sundar Pinchai knowing what color underwear you're wearing. There's no way you can have a phone that works unless you have a factory in China with a suicide net around it. Right. And I think that these are absolutely separable. These are not things that go together naturally. These are things that they have glued together. And my goal is to build a new good Internet where we take the parts that we like and we make them easy so that our friends can use them too. And we get rid of the parasitic billionaires who sit in the middle and ruin everything. Sure.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So.

Look, I mean, I agree with you. Get rid of the parasitic billionaires, but some of the problems the Internet are my friends. Those people also need to get off the Internet.

[D]

Look, I think you're right that people can use technology in terrible ways. But I also think that like there's a lot of reasons to be angry right now and a lot of them have to do with the conduct that gave rise to tech monopolies and other kinds of monopolies. Okay, right.

[A]

But well, before I just because I have limited time, I did want to talk about what is the solutions? You know, you had some.

[D]

So there were four things that used to keep tech companies in check and we can bring them back. So one was that they had competitors. We can do antitrust again. It's not like it's trying to figure out how to like build pyramids without power tools. Right. We know how to do this. Right.

[A]

It feels like the pyramids are easier to build than getting antitrust laws back in.

[D]

You know, it took 20 years from the time we passed the Sherman Antitrust act to the time we broke up Standard Oil. It's a long term project. Right. The best time to prevent monopoly formation.

[A]

Is right now during a MAGA presidency. Yeah, this is the best time to.

[D]

Do it, but we also need to regulate. And we're going to have to do this obviously now at the state and local level. So we have Lina Khan, who's now co chair of Zoran Mandani's transition team, figuring out how to bring the same vigor that she brought. So we have lots of opportunities there. We need to make tech workers unionized again. Because when tech workers had power, it was because they were scarce. And then that scarcity went away and they lost the power. And your ability to say to your boss, I'm not going to inshitify that product that I missed my mother's funeral to ship on time because the guy across the street will hire me. That went out the window when Tech fired 500,000 tech workers. Tech workers had the mistaken belief that they were temporarily embarrassed founders and that they didn't need a union, that they weren't workers, they need a union. Because tech workers that aren't working behind a keyboard, those tech workers, they're peeing in bottles or they're being injured at three times the national rate in an Amazon warehouse. That's how tech bosses treat the workers they're not afraid of. And the last thing we need to do is bring back interoperability. We need to make it legal to change how the technology that you use works so that for example, you can unlock your printer so it'll take generic ink. You know that because it's illegal to change your printer to modify your printer. The four printer companies have raised the price of ink to the point where it is the most expensive fluid you can buy today without a license as a civilian, at $10,000 a gallon, it would be cheaper to print your grocery list with the semen of a Kentucky Derby winning stallion.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[D]

Right. So we need to just bring back interoperability to that.

[A]

And interoperability will allow us to end Enchit Vacation on, let's say, Facebook. How?

[D]

Well, it'll let you do what Mark Zuckerberg did to Rupert Murdoch. You could have a way to be on Blue sky or Mastodon and have the posts that your friends post on Facebook show up in your feed there. So you don't have to choose between the place where they respect you and the people who matter to you. You can have a foot in both camps. Right.

[A]

You can take your data wherever you.

[D]

Want it, but you can continue to interact with those people too. Right. In the same way that, like, if you don't like the way T Mobile's treating you and you want to go to, I don't know, like, another carrier, you do like 7 seconds of administrivia and then your phone just starts ringing on it. Nobody cares what network you're on. No one ever called up a friend and said, dude, you would not believe who SIM is in my phone today. It is genuinely weird that it matters which network you're on and not who you want to talk to.

[A]

Yes, well, that's great, Dr. Ro. I've been reading your work since I was in college. It's really great to finally meet you. You're the best. Thanks for fighting for electronic digital rights so honored. And certification is available now. Toy Doctoral, everybody. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back after this.

Thanks so much.

[B]

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[A]

That's our show for tonight. Now here it is, your moment of Zen. They say that our soybeans. I told this to President Xi, Our soybeans are more nutritious than competitors. Somebody said, is that a Trump statement or is that real? In fact, you know who asked me that question? President Xi asked me that question. He said, really? I had never heard of it.

[C]

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