Trump on Upholding Constitution: "I Don't Know" | Historian Rutger Bregman

Summary

Summary of "The Daily Show: Ears Edition" Episode: "Trump on Upholding Constitution: 'I Don't Know' | Historian Rutger Bregman"

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Introduction

In this episode of The Daily Show: Ears Edition, host Jon Stewart dives deep into the tumultuous presidency of Donald Trump, dissecting his rhetoric and policies with characteristic humor and incisive commentary. The episode features a robust monologue critiquing Trump's handling of the economy and constitutional responsibilities, followed by an enlightening interview with renowned Dutch historian Rutger Bregman, who discusses his latest work, Moral Ambition: Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference.

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Jon Stewart's Monologue: Dissecting Trump's Presidency

Trump's Economic Claims and Missteps

Jon Stewart opens with a satirical take on Trump's recent interview with NBC's Meet the Press host Kristen Welker. He mocks Trump's oversimplified economic narrative: "Trump good, Biden bad" ([03:29]). Stewart humorously illustrates Trump's lack of economic expertise through a fictional scenario where Trump attempts to fix a car by watching YouTube, only to set it on fire. This segment highlights Trump's self-assuredness despite questionable competency.

The Doll and Pencil Anecdote

Stewart transitions to a hypothetical where Trump discusses gifting his niece 20 to 30 dolls, leading to an exaggerated exchange about the appropriate number of dolls and pencils ([04:59] - [06:40]). This bit underscores Trump's perceived disconnect from everyday realities and priorities, using hyperbole to emphasize the absurdity of his statements.

Alcatraz and Military Parades

The monologue continues with Trump’s bizarre proposal to reopen Alcatraz as a federal prison ([12:12] - [15:00]). Stewart ridicules the lack of rationale behind such initiatives, questioning their practicality and purpose. Additionally, Trump’s announcement of a $90 million military parade is lampooned, juxtaposing grandiose spending with mundane governance ([09:48] - [10:41]).

Constitution Upholding and Trump’s Response

A pivotal moment occurs when Stewart presses Trump on his role in upholding the Constitution. Trump’s dismissive response, "I don't know" ([17:42]), becomes the focal point of Stewart’s critique. He underscores the gravity of a president’s duty to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution" ([18:14]), contrasting it sharply with Trump's inability to provide a substantive answer. Stewart emphasizes the constitutional failure with palpable frustration: "Holy shit. That's not okay, by the way" ([17:42]).

Systemic Failures Under Trump

Stewart shifts focus to tangible policy failures under Trump's administration, such as the reduction in funding for food banks, the undermining of the FAA leading to the dysfunction of Newark Airport, and the mass layoffs at the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health ([18:14] - [19:20]). He poignantly highlights the real-world consequences of Trump's chaotic leadership, moving beyond humor to emphasize serious governance issues.

Trump’s Pop Culture Missteps

Satirizing Trump’s use of social media and pop culture references, Stewart mocks an AI-generated image of Trump as the Pope, dissecting the incongruity and inherent absurdity ([15:26] - [16:38]). This segment showcases Stewart's ability to blend political critique with cultural commentary seamlessly.

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Interview with Rutger Bregman: Exploring Moral Ambition

Introduction to Rutger Bregman

At [22:04], Jon Stewart welcomes Rutger Bregman, a celebrated Dutch historian and bestselling author, to discuss his new book, Moral Ambition: Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference. Bregman introduces the concept of moral ambition as the fusion of activist idealism and entrepreneurial drive, aiming to inspire individuals to pursue meaningful change as a vocation rather than a hobby.

Defining Moral Ambition

Bregman elaborates on moral ambition, describing it as the "combination of the idealism of an activist and the ambition of an entrepreneur" ([23:00]). He emphasizes the importance of standing "on the right side of history" by dedicating one’s career to making the world a better place, drawing parallels to historical figures such as abolitionists and suffragettes.

Critique of Modern Activism

Jon Stewart probes into the effectiveness of modern activism, with Bregman addressing the pitfalls of "awareness-over-action" movements. He argues that while raising awareness is crucial, it must be coupled with tangible actions to effect real change. Bregman criticizes the obsession with moral purity on the left, advocating for coalition-building and pragmatic approaches to activism ([25:34] - [26:35]).

Systemic Barriers and Talent Shift

Bregman discusses systemic barriers that hinder moral ambition, noting that many educated individuals perceive their jobs as socially meaningless ([27:19] - [28:00]). He introduces the concept of an "inverse welfare society," where essential workers are undervalued, and skilled professionals are disengaged from meaningful work. Bregman calls for a "talent shift" and wealth redistribution to empower individuals to pursue socially impactful careers.

Historical Parallels and Future Outlook

Drawing historical parallels, Bregman highlights how successful movements, such as the British abolitionists, combined moral ambition with entrepreneurial skill to drive change ([29:13] - [30:20]). He expresses optimism about a potential new Progressive Era, contingent on integrating moral ambition with systemic change and coalition-building.

Practical Steps for Exercising Moral Ambition

In the final segment, Bregman outlines practical steps for individuals to exercise moral ambition through his organization, the School for Moral Ambition. He details initiatives like the Taxi Fairness Fellowship, which recruits talent from lucrative but morally questionable industries to champion social causes ([32:20] - [39:13]). Bregman emphasizes the importance of leveraging privilege and skills to fight systemic issues, urging people to "use it" for meaningful change ([37:22] - [37:41]).

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Conclusion

Jon Stewart wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of moral ambition in contemporary society, drawing inspiration from Rutger Bregman's insights. The episode deftly balances humor with serious discourse, offering listeners both entertainment and substantive reflections on political leadership and social activism.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Stewart on Trump's Economy Claim ([03:29]): "Trump good, Biden bad."

• Trump Responding to Constitution Question ([17:42]): "I don't know."

• Rutger Bregman on Moral Ambition ([23:00]): "It's the desire to stand on the right side of history before it is fashionable and to really devote your career... to make this world a much better place."

• Bregman on Systemic Barriers ([27:19]): "We're dealing with an inverse welfare society where essential jobs are undervalued while educated elites feel their work is meaningless."

• Bregman on Coalition-Building ([26:35]): "If people agree with you for 80% of their time, they're not your enemy, but they're your ally."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Daily Show masterfully intertwines sharp political satire with thoughtful discussions on moral responsibility and systemic change. Jon Stewart's critique of Trump's presidency sets the stage for Rutger Bregman's compelling narrative on moral ambition, providing listeners with both laughter and inspiration to engage in meaningful activism.

Transcript

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[Jon Stewart]

You're listening to Comedy Central.

[Announcer]

From the.

[John Stewart]

Most trusted journalists at Comedy Central. It's America's only source for news. This is the Daily show with your host, John Stewart.

[Jon Stewart]

Welcome. Welcome to the Daily Show. Thank you. My name is Jon Stewart. Man, do we have a show for tonight. Later on, I'm going to be joined by our guest, Rutger Bregman. He is my all time, and I mean this all time favorite Dutch historian. Yeah, that's right.

[Donald Trump]

You heard me.

[Jon Stewart]

Suck on that. Herman van Der Donk, who is another Dutch historian that we looked up backstage. But first, and I'm so glad you're with us today, let's talk about our beloved president. He's in a. He's a. Show some respect. He's in a bit of a tough situation right now since he ran on fixing the economy. And fixing the economy, it's very complicated. It's very tricky. You need professionals. But Trump is one of those guys who's like, I can do it.

[John Stewart]

I know what I'm doing.

[Jon Stewart]

He watched the YouTube video and he opened up the hood and he was like, oh, it's the wire from the carburetor and the. No, let me just. Oh, it's on fire. And then his wife comes out and is like, I told you to call somebody. And then he's like, you don't believe in me. End scene. Now you see why I'm not in many movies. The point being, yesterday, Trump sat down for an interview with NBC's Meet the Press host Kristen Welker. And the challenge was clear. The president had to find a way to persuasively take credit for the remaining good parts of the economy while subtly assigning blame to Joe Biden for the bad on fire parts. Let's see how Trump threaded this rhetorical needle.

[Donald Trump]

I think the good parts are the Trump economy and the bad parts Are the Biden economy.

[Jon Stewart]

Nailed it. He went right at it. No attempt at persuasion or allegory or metaphor. Trump good, Biden bad. He's a regular Shakespeare. Maybe Shakespeare would have been better off with the Trump approach. Act one, scene one. Romeo and Juliet. Hey, Juliet, it's Romeo. Let's then kill ourselves. I want to thank my family. Look, I'm trying very hard in this new Trump flood the zone media ecosystem strategy to not get too high or low, to not take the bait, to find things in my life that give me pleasure or peace. For instance, quick story. I have a niece, 11 years old, loves dolls. I was gonna get her 20 or 30 of them for her birthday just to see the joy of a child. You can't put a price tag on that. It gives me great solace. Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to take these interviews personal.

[Donald Trump]

I don't think a beautiful baby girl needs that's 11 years old needs to have 30 doll.

[Jon Stewart]

First of all, I don't think we consider 11 year olds baby girls. Second of all, you don't know what she needs. She's been through a lot this year. How many dolls would you get her? What is the appropriate number of dolls to get a beautiful baby 11 year old girl?

[Donald Trump]

Mr. President, I think they can have three dolls or four do.

[Jon Stewart]

And there's not that many dolls. I mean, okay, sure, she could have a small tea party with the dolls, but her dream had been a quasi realistic conclave reenactment with dolls. That's what she wanted. But fine, fine. Oh, it's fine, it's fine. I'll just tell her the President of the United States said no. You know what? Doesn't matter. Dolls are not her only happy place anyway. She also loves taking standardized tests. No, it's true. Very erudite. So I was thinking of getting her this wonderful baby's first SAT kit. It has all the Scantron sheets and around 250 number two pencils. She's going to go crazy. She.

[Donald Trump]

They don't need to have 250 pencils. They can have five.

[Jon Stewart]

Mother. How dare you? What kind of a man would deny this poor girl her full complement of pencils for her dream standardized testing toy kit. Is that man A, Ebenezer Scrooge, B, the Grinch, C, an evil step monster, or D, all of the above? Oh, that's right. She can't answer because she's already used her entire pencil quota. But I have to say, like when Trump is talking about what people should do and get to like dolls and pencils. Trump has such a depression era view of what kids play with in 2025, kids don't need 20 sets of those hoops you hit with a stick as you go down the street. Just one hoop is Jim Dandy. But look, to be fair to Donald Trump, his austerity pitch to the American people is in line with the modest way in which Trump conducts his life. Trump has a monastic view of simple living that says, hey, what if Saddam Hussein's palace had a view of Central Park?

[Donald Trump]

We're standing in my apartment at Trump Tower. Some people consider it to be the greatest apartment in the world.

[Jon Stewart]

And some people think it's what would look like inside Marie Antoinette's vagina. It was notoriously well appointed. Look, I do want to hand it to Trump. If you notice a very sparing use of pencils and dolls, he does walk the walk. But look, here's the truth. If a Democrat had even hinted at toy rationing for American children, we'd have a full week of Fox special reports on the sobbing children of socialist America and a boom in gun toting patriots going, you can have my GI Joe when you pry it from a kung fu grip. But at least we're finally getting to address in a substantive manner Trump's chaotic stewardship of what was the world's most stable economy and how Americans are going to have to sacrifice financially and tamp down their consumerist impulse. And that is what has driven so much of our economy and I guess our waste. And I'm sure the president will use this interview with Welker to cheerlead the effort to a more financially responsible future for all of us.

[Donald Trump]

We're gonna have a big, beautiful parade.

[Desi Lydic]

A military parade. Yeah, sure, okay.

[Donald Trump]

We're gonna celebrate our military. We have the greatest military price tag. Do you people? Peanuts compared to the value of doing it.

[Jon Stewart]

We can't afford not to do it. Why don't you believe in me? If you hadn't spent so much on dolls and pencils, we wouldn't even talking about this and see. But this is the brilliance of Trump. In the same interview where he says to Americans, sorry about your Christmas. Suck it up, he talks about a $90 million parade that just so happens to fall on his birthday and is totally worth it.

[Donald Trump]

We have the greatest missiles in the world. We have the greatest submarines in the world. We have the greatest army tanks in the world. We have the greatest weapons in the world. And we're going to celebrate it.

[Jon Stewart]

I don't know, Mr. President, if you know how submarines work. But dragging them down Pennsylvania Avenue will most likely void the warranty. But this is why it's so hard to pin Trump down on everything. Because to get to substantive policy questions, you have to face down the fire hose of his nonsense and bullshit that moves you off track, his frenetic nature. That means we all end up suffering from a kind of secondhand adhd, a viral cloud of his unfocused weaving that gives all of us brain fog. Well, no more. Hi, sharks. When I saw the President of the United States starting out on tariffs and ending up on dolls and parades and pencils, I thought, there's gotta be a better way to help Americans figure out which of the things it's okay to get upset about and which things are just him off. So I invented this chart. Let me show you how it works. First, we take something the President said.

[Kristen Welker]

Donald Trump says that he is directing.

[Jon Stewart]

The Bureau of Prisons to reopen Alcatraz. And then we figure out, is that okay? Sure, it's okay. It's the kind of thing that's okay to just let go. It's just a stupid thing to keep us occupied, to lose focus on his actual policies. It's okay not to take the bait, to not get sucked into. But why would you want to reopen Alcatraz? What the is that? Why would you want to do that?

[News Correspondent]

The president says he wants to use the island to, quote, house America's most ruthless and violent offenders in this notorious federal prison. It closed in 1963 because it was too expensive to run and repair. It's now been a museum.

[Jon Stewart]

What did Trump think? We're low on prisons. What do you. Although I guess any opportunity to open a prison and simultaneously close a museum is too good to pass up. But it'll take hundreds of millions of dollars or I don't know how many dolls in pencils, but it's a lot. Does Doge know about this? Does Alcatraz?

[News Correspondent]

Alcatraz officials did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

[Jon Stewart]

Because they run a museum. They're a museum. They' that's what they're. They're not. They're not like, tough talking wardens. They're docents with art history degrees. The only person working there is busy fixing those machines that flatten pennies. That's the only person that works there. And here's the crazy part about Trump. He throws out these crazy ideas, and then those crazy ideas have days of shelf life. This is a press conference today announcing a partnership with the NFL draft. But now The NFL guys have to just sit there and nod through all this Alcatraz nonsense.

[Donald Trump]

Our country needs law and order. Alcatraz is, I would say, the ultimate right. Alcatraz, Sing Sing and Alcatraz. Nobody's ever escaped from Alcatraz and just represented some person, almost got there. But they, as you know the story, they found his clothing, a lot of shark bites, a lot of, lot of problems. Now it's a big hulk that's sitting there rusting and rotting. It sort of represents something that's both horrible and beautiful and strong and miserable. Weak. Got a lot of qualities that are interesting and I think they, they make a point.

[Jon Stewart]

What point? There is no point. That's not. It's fine, it's fine. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The chart was supposed to prevent this kind of over emotional digression. This one's on me. I am not leading a chart based life right now. I apologize. I can do better. I can do better. Let's go again and judge whether or not this is an important pronouncement or a brain fogging digression.

[Kristen Welker]

President Trump shared an AI generated image of himself depicted as the Pope on social media yesterday.

[Jon Stewart]

It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's just okay. It's fine. Not the most presidential thing, but Trump and the Pope do share the same taste in interior design. So it's not the worst bit. And it's just a troll. It's not hurting anybody. I mean, Trump wasn't going to heaven anyway, so it's not like it's gonna. I'm not gonna get distracted by it. I'm not gonna. But he can't really be the Pope, can he? Can he be the Pope?

[News Correspondent]

The last time a non cardinal was Pope was back in 1378 when the Italian Archbishop Bartolomeo Prignano, who had been a monk, was controversially chosen from outside of the College of Cardinals and he became Pope Urban VI. So will Donald Trump follow in the 647-year-old footsteps of Bartolomeo Prignano? No, he won't.

[Jon Stewart]

You see what you're doing to people, Trump? MSNBC's gotta waste valuable airtime fact checking your nonsense. Time they could have spent frowning, sighing and rolling their eyes. Is there anything during this chaotic news cycle that maybe we should keep our eyes on? Don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as President?

[Donald Trump]

I don't know.

[Jon Stewart]

Holy shit. That's not okay, by the way. I don't know. That wasn't a Gotcha. Question. Should the president uphold the Constitution on Millionaire, that'd be the warm up question. Like what color is an orange? Or name a planet with people on it? I mean, if you can't answer that, the president's supposed to uphold the Constitution. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't even let you become a citizen. And before you might say, but they never told me, I was. Let me refer you back to a cold day in January. Preserve, protect and defend.

[Donald Trump]

Preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. The Constitution of the United States.

[Jon Stewart]

Were you even awake? Preserve and defend, I. E. Uphold. It's not optional. It is not an opportunity for you to lawyer shop loopholes to our nation's founding document. You took an oath in front of God and those who are fighting against God. But the important thing is this. Here's the problem. The volatility of nonsense from consequential to truly disorienting is unfathomable. While we're chasing Pope and Alcatraz stories, the Trump administration has gutted funding for America's food banks. They've hollowed out the FAA to the point where Newark Airport is basically inoperable and not in its usual way. And then there's this.

[Kristen Welker]

Health and human services secretary, RFK Jr. Laid off nearly all workers at the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health.

[Jon Stewart]

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[Jon Stewart]

Mother, I agree. Do you know how bad you have to be to make the lives of sick 911 responders worse? The Trump administration is now number two on the 911 evil power rankings. Al Qaeda is still number one. But you're closing the gap. And trust me, there is nothing that you can do to distract me from making sure that those folks are going to get what they've earned from the government.

[Announcer]

The White House posting this AI image.

[Desi Lydic]

Of a buff Jedi. Trump to mark Star Wars Day on.

[Jon Stewart]

May 4 while touting his immigration crackdown. Here's the thing. I know I'm not supposed to get distracted, but he's not a Jedi in that picture. Do you understand? Trump is presenting himself as a Jedi, but his lightsaber is red. And the only way you can have a red lightsaber is by infusing its kyber crystal with the power of your age and hate, thereby corrupting it into a vessel for the dark side. Therefore. Therefore every one of those photos that Trump is putting out there, he is admitting. He is admitting he's not a Jedi, but in fact, a Sith Lord. And There are always two. So the question is, who is he working with and why do I know all this? Well, I happen to have an extensive collection of Star wars action figures. 30 to 37, actually. Some call them dolls. I call them friends. When we come back, Rutger Bregman. Don't go away.

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[Jon Stewart]

Done.

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[Audience Member]

Hey.

[Jon Stewart]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight, fabulous guest. He's a historian, bestselling author. His new book is called Moral Ambition. Stop wasting your talent and start making a difference. Please welcome to the program Rutger Bregman. Sir, hello. They go crazy for the Dutch historian crowd.

[Audience Member]

I know. Well, I have a lot of competition there. You know, all the other famous Dutch historians.

[Jon Stewart]

That's exactly. Van der Dunk had it coming for a long time. Listen, moral ambition is in this country, obviously has been somewhat outlawed. But what do you. How do you define moral ambition as something that people should be pursuing.

[Audience Member]

So it's pretty simple. It's the combination of two things. It's the idealism of an activist on the one hand, and the ambition of an entrepreneur. So it's the desire to stand on the right side of history before it is fashionable and to really devote your career, your precious time on this earth to make this world a much better place. You're trying to step into the footsteps of the great moral pioneers who came before you, the abolitionists, the suffragettes, the civil rights campaigners.

[Jon Stewart]

But not as a hobby, as a vocation.

[Audience Member]

Yep. Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

And you have. Very interesting. The opening forward is so interesting. It's a story of a monk, the happiest person in the world. His brainwaves tell us this, and you tell this story. And I think you're going to a place where you say, be the monk.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

And you basically go, this monk is wasting his life.

[Audience Member]

Yeah. Well, look, I mean, he meditated for 60,000 hours, and then researchers put him in a brain scanner and declared him the happiest man alive, you know, because he had so much positive things going on there. And I read about that story and I was really angry. It was like 60,000 hours in your own head and the world is burning. I mean, come on, there, there are problems to solve here. And look, I mean, Macho Ricard, that's the Buddhist monk's name, he's actually a fantastic guy. Pretty morally ambitious. So people got to read the epilogue as well.

[Jon Stewart]

But wait, is this guy now like getting shit talked all over?

[Audience Member]

Anyway, the point is, I mean, there are a huge amount of self help books out there that will teach you how to be more mindful, more relaxed, be more happy. My previous book, humankind, was an attempt to restore people's faith in humanity. And at some point I saw these pictures on Instagram of people reading the book saying, you know, life is wonderful, don't worry. Stop following the news and just relax. And I was like, oh, I've created a monster, right? This is not. So if my previous book was like a warm hug, then this is a cold shower, A refreshing cold shower.

[Jon Stewart]

A plunge. That's apparently. That's the thing now you're supposed to do. You go to the warm thing and then you go to the cold thing.

[Audience Member]

Exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

When you. What is the piece of advice that was missing from you from the hug? How do you restore faith in humanity and then get mad at them?

[Audience Member]

So look, a couple of.

[Jon Stewart]

I want to restore faith in humanity. Oh, you people are just up.

[Audience Member]

Okay, so a lot of people will know me for saying some nasty things about billionaires. You know, I went to Davos.

[Jon Stewart]

You went to Davos?

[Audience Member]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Tell them what you said at Davos, which I thought was a really interesting.

[Audience Member]

Well, it was really short, basically, you know, stop talking about your BS philanthropy and pay your taxes instead.

[Jon Stewart]

By the way, when over break, you get invited back every year now, right? Is that.

[Audience Member]

Not really. Not really, but that was obviously, you know, nice to experience. But you got to ask yourself, like, does this make a difference? In the book, I come to the conclusion that awareness is vastly overrated. Right? It's easy to go viral shouting, text the rich or, you know, destroy capitalism, kill the patriarchy. But the point is to actually do something about it, right? To really translate your ideas into actual action and then results. And I think too often on the left side of the political spectrum, we see this obsession with moral purity and then also a certain kind of political irrelevance, right? What it really takes to change the world is to build a coalition, right? All these great movements, the abolitionists, the civil rights campaigners, they were coalitions of people who very often didn't agree with one another.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

So I guess that's one of the pieces of advice I have here, is if people agree with you for 80% of their time, they're not your enemy, but they're your ally.

[Jon Stewart]

Your ally. What do you say to people? Because when I view the world of moral ambition or activism, I actually see it as pretty vibrant, that we may not know their names, but there are so many people that don't get the attention that are doing what you're suggesting, but maybe without the access to the people that matter like that don't get invited to Davos, but are doing the grunt work, like working in the trenches, trying to get their representatives to notice or trying to make a difference. What do you say to people who are saying like, I have moral ambition, I'm busting my ass out here. It's very hard to get a foothold.

[Audience Member]

So I believe we live in an sort of inverse welfare society. So we've got the people in the so called essential jobs. We discovered that during the pandemic. If they go on strike, then that's a disaster for all of us. On the other hand, we have huge amounts of people, educated elites, you know, who went to nice universities, who have fancy resumes. If they go on strike very often, not all that much happens. You know, I've got one study in the book from two Dutch economists. Actually, they studied 40 countries and found that around 25% of people in the modern workforce think that their own job is socially meaningless. These are, by the way, mostly people.

[Jon Stewart]

Wait, how many?

[Audience Member]

25%?

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, I would actually think that'd be higher.

[Audience Member]

Well, it's quite a lot, John. It's five times the unemployment rate.

[Jon Stewart]

Is it really? Yeah, yeah, one out of four jobs.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, exactly. And these people, I mean, last week I was at Harvard.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, look at you.

[Audience Member]

Well, it's an interesting example where you meet a lot of bright young students, right, who are generally idealistic, but then at the same time, you know that about half of them will end up in what a friend of mine calls the Bermuda Triangle of talent. So you've got consultancy, you've got corporate law, you've got finance. This gaping black hole that sucks up so many talented people who should actually work on these big problems. So look, I am not here to preach people already in those essential jobs. I am actually preaching at certain my own people because I'm quite Angry at them.

[Jon Stewart]

You're talking about Dutch historians.

[Audience Member]

People, you know, who went to university, who had some education, you know, who should feel this responsibility to use their skill set to make a difference.

[Jon Stewart]

Do you consider them?

[Audience Member]

Oh, I get very excited about that.

[Jon Stewart]

What percentage do you consider our system then, of education and economics, a moral failure in that regard? And is it. Are there places where what you're talking about works? Is there an analogous situation?

[Audience Member]

There are places in history. I mean, does that depress you? This actually gives me hope. I mean, this is what's so great about my job. You know, in the book, I talk a lot about the British abolitionists. They were the most successful abolitionists. They built this huge movement in the late 18th century, and they considered their project to be part of a bit of a cultural revolution. They wanted to make doing good fashionable once again. What really fascinated me about them is that they were mostly entrepreneurs. So nine or 10 out of 12 of the British, the founders of the British Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, they were entrepreneurs, you know, people who had built their own companies, who had skilled them. They knew how to get things done.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

I mean, in the Netherlands at the time, yeah, it's pretty sad. There was a bunch of Calvinist social justice warriors who were mainly interested in their own moral purity that didn't get much done.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. They were the ones who on their Instagram pages kept putting up the black square.

[Audience Member]

Exactly, exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

I remember that.

[Audience Member]

Yeah. Yeah. And we've seen the same thing in the US Actually. The move from the Gilded Age to the Progressive Era. Right.

[Jon Stewart]

And now back again.

[Audience Member]

But we could then go back again to perhaps another Progressive Era. I do see that.

[Jon Stewart]

So what is going wrong? Because to my mind, the sticking point, and maybe, maybe this is semantics, but the sticking point doesn't appear to be people who are morally ambitious, but a system that is impervious to that, that is agnostic about moral ambition. It feels like there's enough people in this country working their asses off for change and a political system that finds a way to ignore them in favor of insurance company lobbyists or drug company. Like, they don't have access to the system. How do they get access?

[Audience Member]

Yeah, sure. Look, I'm a guy who comes from the political left, so I'm all about systemic analysis. You know, I'm the guy who loves to shout like, change system. But then writing this book, at some point, I got this feeling that perhaps, you know, this can become a kind of excuse as well. Right. You can keep shouting like everything's wrong. With the system. But systems, they consist of people. Right. There's this beautiful quote from Margaret Mead who once said that we should never doubt the power of small groups of thoughtful, committed citizens to change the world. And actually people on the right wing side of the political spectrum, they understand that very well. You know, Trump didn't come out of nowhere. This was a 50 year project. It started in the early 70s, probably with the Powell memo, for example, you know, this corporate lawyer from, you know, that was on the board of Philip Morris and it was like, you know, let's build this whole movement to take over America. And then they created the Federalist Society.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

And the American enterprises do like, you.

[Jon Stewart]

Need some perseverance, you need the moral ambition to be fused with. Because on the right they fused it very well with their billionaires and their media ecosystem. Whereas on the right it perhaps because it's not as homogenous, it's been a more, it's more difficult. Is the idea for these networks of morally ambitious activists to connect with the entrepreneurs and funders and move in that direction together.

[Audience Member]

Absolutely.

[Jon Stewart]

And that's what you're not seeing.

[Audience Member]

Yeah. So I co founded an organization as well called the School for Moral Ambition. Everything I earned with the book is going into that.

[Jon Stewart]

Moral ambition.

[Audience Member]

Yeah, yeah. We like to see ourselves as sort of the Robin Hoods of talent. So Robin Hood famously took away the money.

[Jon Stewart]

I know who Robin Hood from the risk.

[Audience Member]

Okay, well there you go. For those who didn't know, I mean, that's the worst endeavor. Right. But you also need to take the talent. What we've seen in this country since the 60s and the 70s is that a lot of people who used to go and work in those socially meaningful jobs in academia, for example, or in government, they went to Wall street creating, creating BS Financial products or you know, Silicon Valley, creating these apps that make us all addicted.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

We need a talent shift as well as a, as a wealth distribution.

[Jon Stewart]

So what then is the incentive other than moral satisfaction? Is, is that, do we need to teach kids that? Because that was, look, the hippies in the hippies of the 60s and they were very idealistic and then they all, you know, Reagan came along and they were all like, wait, I can work at a hedge fund. Okay. And so what is then do you have to create then an incentive process for, for those folks? How do you, how do you get that talent?

[Audience Member]

Yeah, so people are really cynical, would say, like, look, it's all about the money. Right. These people are just selling out. And I think that's probably true for some of them, but for, you know, back to those Harvard kids, for a lot of them, it's also the status, you know, of doing something that is actually cool, that is interesting because, let's be Honest, working at McKinsey is really boring. You know, creating the same PowerPoint every day. Right, right.

[Jon Stewart]

So I don't work there, so I don't know what they're like.

[Audience Member]

Well, I've heard. So, yeah, I think it's not just about the money. People are mixed bags. Right. So status and what society values, like the kind of people we put in the spotlight who get invited to shows like this, that all that matters, obviously.

[Jon Stewart]

Right, right. And is it. What about sort of the everyday, sort of quiet activism of living pleasantly? Like, I think we shouldn't diminish, though, for whatever your status is or station is that you can, within your own life, make the changes that create at least a better local atmosphere. Because I think what you're talking about is when you point to history, you're really talking about inflection points, and you don't know when those will occur. And oftentimes momentum builds to them, and there's a tipping point in it. It moves over. I don't know how conscious it is.

[Audience Member]

Can I push back on that, please? So, again, talk to this Dutch people.

[Jon Stewart]

Push back so nicely.

[Audience Member]

It can be different as well. I mean, there is this tendency to say things like, less is more and small is beautiful. I mean, in environmental circles, they have all these modern commandments like, don't eat meat, don't fly, don't have kids, don't use plastic straws. But then if you really focus on that individualist aspect of improving your life, like, in the best possible scenario, you will have reduced your environmental footprint to zero. You've basically turned yourself into a compost heap. It's not very ambitious. And if I look at some of these great pioneers, like, also, like people like Rosa Parks, like, they didn't think small, they thought big. They were ambitious. So I've looked into the research, and it turns out that more is actually more. So if you help one person, that's great. If you help two, that's twice as much.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

Mathematics.

[Jon Stewart]

But are we, like. I wasn't even talking about, like, let's use less, because I do think human progress is generally like, people will do what's more convenient or more. That's just kind of how. How they. They operate. I'm just. I guess I'm. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what this means. Like, it feels like saying to like, college kids at a graduation, like, you bastards.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Like, you think you're gonna go into these other jobs. No.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Go solve climate change.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Is that what this is?

[Audience Member]

That's basically it, yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

I mean, this would be the greatest. The greatest graduation speech ever. You just get up there and go, listen.

[Audience Member]

One of the things we're doing is we're starting a taxi fairness fellowship, so.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

I mean, it was nice to shout to the billionaires. You know, it's taxes, taxes, taxes. Now we're actually trying to recruit, you know, some of the best wealth managers, the best bankers, the best fiscal lawyers.

[Jon Stewart]

This would, like the esg, the Investing for Better. Was that just nonsense?

[Audience Member]

I mean, that is like. It's not like a thin layer of corporate responsibility, a corrupt, broken business model. I mean, come on, we got to be much more ambitious here. We're not living in 2015 anymore where you can say, oh, I'm doing good by doing well, 2015, and let's do it. That's all.

[Jon Stewart]

Those were the days.

[Audience Member]

Yeah. No, that's not. I mean, this is 2025. We have. One side of the political spectrum is a total moral collapse. I mean, Democratic blacksliding happening everywhere.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

Especially people who have some privilege. You know, whether it's talent, whether it's, you know, wealth, whether it's your network, use it. I mean, people on the left for so long, things like check your privilege. Yes. Check it and then use it. You know, have some skin in the game.

[Jon Stewart]

Right, right. And is that working?

[Audience Member]

I think so. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

So, Howard, tell me about. And just before we go, then. So if people want to exercise this moral ambition, what is. How do they get their foot on that ladder? Do they have to come to your institute, or is there. Yeah.

[Audience Member]

So we're building a movement now of.

[Jon Stewart]

You could be running the greatest scam in history right now to do this, you have to come to the now. Tuition is tuition.

[Audience Member]

No, no, no, no, no. There's no tuition.

[Jon Stewart]

All right?

[Audience Member]

We pay people to quit their job. That's how it works.

[Jon Stewart]

For real?

[Audience Member]

Yes.

[Jon Stewart]

How much does that pay?

[Audience Member]

Well, I mean, currently, we're paying, like, an average Dutch salary. It's enough to live on for a couple of months, and then, obviously, I mean, we help people to pivot.

[Jon Stewart]

You're really selling this.

[Audience Member]

Thank you. Thank you. No, it's honestly quite exciting.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Audience Member]

We have now 24 people in Europe who quit their job to fight Big Tobacco, for example. It's the most evil legal industry out there. They've created the deadliest product in the history of humanity. I mean, today we have this moral outrage about smartphones. Right? Smartphones that make you addicted. There's TikTok on it. Imagine a smartphone that is so addictive and also kills you. That's a cigarette. So, anyway, we've recruited. It's terrible, isn't it? Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Note to self. Smartphone that kills you. Awesome product launch.

[Audience Member]

So the point is, like, we have actually one of our fellows in our cohort is someone who used to work for Big Tobacco. She switched sides and she knows everything about effective marketing and now she's using that skills to fight the industry.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. Well, that's fantastic. And it starts off there. And have you done it in the United States as well, or this is right now, purely European products?

[Audience Member]

No, no, no. We're starting.

[Jon Stewart]

You're starting here? Yeah.

[Audience Member]

I came to New York in September. We're building out here. It's really getting started now. We're launching our first fellowships, as I said, the Sex Fairness Fellowship.

[Jon Stewart]

And do you have some people that are lined up?

[Audience Member]

Well, people can apply. So go to moralambition.org if you want to quit your job and do something useful. Work.

[Jon Stewart]

The book is Moral Ambition. Get your application now. Yes, let's. Conversely, we're going to take with both. Fantastic. Do you think America.

[Desi Lydic]

Introducing Instagram teen Accounts. A new way to keep your teen safer as they grow. Like making sure they've got the right gear for writing.

[Jon Stewart]

Knee pads, shack and helmet. Done.

[Advertiser]

See you, dad.

[Desi Lydic]

New Instagram teen accounts. Automatic protections for who can contact your teen and the content they can see.

[Announcer]

The search for truth never ends. Introducing June's Journey, a hidden object mobile game with a captivating story. Connect with friends, explore the Roaring twenties and enjoy thrilling activities and challenges while supporting environmental causes. After seven years, the adventure continues with our Immersive Travels feature. Explore distant cultures and engage in exciting experiences. There's always something new to discover. Are you ready? Download June's Journey now ON Android or iOS.

[Jon Stewart]

That is our show, ladies and gentlemen, for the night. Before we go, we're going to check in with your host for the rest of the week, Desi Lydic. Desi, come on. What's happening this week?

[Kristen Welker]

Well, it's Conclave week, John. They're electing a new pope. And I'll be in the room every day to find out what's going on.

[Jon Stewart]

In the conclave room. That's. I think they only like cardinals in that room. It's, uh.

[Kristen Welker]

Yeah, I know. Dum dum. That's why I spent weeks preparing to go undercover as Cardinal Cappuccino Pizzeria. I know this cardinal shit backwards and forwards. Go ahead, ask me anything.

[Jon Stewart]

Uh, anything. Okay. Cardinal Pizzeria. Who do you want to be? Pope?

[Kristen Welker]

No comprendo. I only speak the Latin.

[Jon Stewart]

Nailed it. Jesus would be proud.

[Kristen Welker]

And who is he?

[Jon Stewart]

All right, never mind. Desi Lynek. All this week. Here it is, your moment of death.

[Donald Trump]

Actually, my wife thought it was cute. She said, isn't that nice? My question about it, actually, I would not be able to be married, though that would be a lot. I'd have to. To the best of my knowledge, popes aren't big on getting married, are they? Not that we know of.

[Jon Stewart]

No.

[Donald Trump]

No.

[John Stewart]

Explore more shows from the Daily Show Podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount plus.

[Desi Lydic]

Paramount Podcasts.

[Announcer]

The search for truth never ends. Introducing June's Journey, a hidden object mobile game with a captivating story. Connect with friends, explore the roaring twenties and enjoy thrilling activities and challenges while supporting environmental causes. After seven years, the adventure continues with our immersive travel feature. Explore distant cultures and engage in exciting experiences. There's always something new to discover. Are you ready? Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS.