Loading summary
Transcript286 lines
- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom, into the real world. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. It's funny, like, just a couple years ago, there was this whole sort of resurgence and sort of discussion about empathy, the power of empathy and vulnerability and connection. I think Brene Brown was obviously a big proponent of this, out popularized it. And then naturally there's going to be a backlash. There's always, always the swinging of the pendulum. But I think we're definitely going too far in the other direction these days, this backlash. Actually, when I was on the Daily Show, I was asked about this very idea. This is what I said.
- [00:48]
B
I think so many men in particular are drawn to Daily Stoic. As a man myself who really enjoys your Books and your YouTube and your Instagram, I see men in leadership positions now, and I don't connect. I see our current administration, I see a lot of the podcasters, and I think it's hard for me to connect with them. I don't feel like those are the men I want to be. It doesn't seem like a healthy balance. Elon Musk, this brilliant, brilliant man, and now it seems like he's a cautionary tale to mention. How do you feel that so many men are, you know, you are their stoic, or how would the stoics advise you to be in this position?
- [01:27]
A
Yeah, I feel like I'm one of the few male influencer types that did not become radicalized or red pilled. So, like, stoicism is not supposed to make you a better sociopath or a bigger asshole. That's not what this is. But. That's, that's the ethical component. Right? I think Elon Musk was on Joe Rogan and he said, you know, empathy is gonna cause the destruction of Western civilization. That is a profoundly stupid thing to say and think. Well, you talk about him a lot.
- [02:08]
B
You talk about him a lot in the book. And it seems like part of the point you're making is maybe here's a brilliant man who's done a lot of amazing things but wasn't on this path to wisdom.
- [02:17]
A
I mean, to say that Elon Musk is not smart is like saying he's not rich. He's clearly very smart. But that is what is so scary about it, that you could be so brilliant, so gifted, so informed, you could have been so successful, and then social media can still break your brain. Right? And it did. It did. This is a guy who went from reading Soviet rocket manuals to figure out the aeronautics business to following like Cat Turd7 on Twitter and Russian bots, from whom he now gets his information and his worldview. And that is, I think, a tale as old as time. You become successful, you think that you're smart, and that is when you start to get real dumb. Because, as the stoics say, it's impossible to learn that which you think you already know. I think you can make a very clear case for empathy in the sense that if you are making things for other people, which we all are, whether that thing is customer service or that thing is a book, or that thing is music, or that thing is food that people want to eat, we're doing a thing for other people, which means we have to understand other people. We have to understand those people's perspective. We have to be able to communicate and connect with those other people. And that's what we're going to talk about in today's episode. Will Guidera is a friend of mine. We had a lovely talk at Barnes and Noble when the last book came out. That was fun. And his book Unreasonable Hospitality, been a monster hit in the years since he was the co owner of Eleven Madison park, which earned three Michelin stars and regularly rated the number one restaurant in the world. He's a very successful business person and entrepreneur and thinker. He was on the Bear, maybe you saw that. And he has a new book called Unreasonable Hospitality, the Field Guide, which is really cool. He spent his whole career thinking about service, not as something transactional, but as something noble, something even moral. And so I wanted to talk to him about that in today's episode, how empathy informs that. I'll talk about a bunch of things in this episode, honestly, the standards we hold ourselves, the things we do for other people. We talked about adversity and generosity, the nobility of service. And then Will's idea of making a charitable assumption about other people. And look, whether you're running a restaurant or leading a team or building a business or just trying to be a decent person, hospitality is not like an afterthought. It is the main thing. I'll just get into it. I think this episode is great. And we end up nerding out about some stoic themes in here, too. So here's me talking to Will Kadera. So generally I get to wear whatever I want, which is usually, if you see me, it's running shorts and a heavy metal T shirt. But, you know, sometimes we have a fancy guest on I want to dress up or I'm giving a talk and I've got to dress up or I'm going to be on TV and I've got to dress up. And lately I've been wearing a lot of quints. I've loved their sweaters. What I try to do is find staples like things that I really like and I'll get multiple colors or you know, I'll just go through that brand or that company's catalog and get a bunch of stuff I like. And I'm so glad that Quince has been a sponsor because they saved me a bunch of money. Although I'll end up paying for it because now I'm hooked and I'm going to end up buying a lot of the stuff. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. They've got linen shorts and shirts. They've got, as I said, sweaters which I'm wearing all the time. Everything that Quince has is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find from similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories, cuts out the middlemen so you're getting premium materials without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head over to quince.comdoic for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com stoic for free shipping and 365 day returns. As a business owner, I'm super familiar with how important a strong Internet connection is to keeping everything running smoothly. A slight delay in the Internet connection in the store, it could mean missed sales. A lag in a zoom call or a podcast recording could mean you lose everything you were doing. When every minute matters, every transaction, every customer, you cannot rely on a subpar Internet connection. You need a provider that's reliable. You need Spectrum Business. Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all sizes seamlessly connected with fast, reliable Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV and mobile services. They offer 100% US based customer support 24. 7 to help you stay up and running and are sure to have the right plan for you with tailored connectivity solutions and packages built for every business budget. Millions of business owners rely on Spectrum Business to keep them connected. Visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply Services not available in all areas. I wanted to start with this idea of empathy because it seems like there's this kind of backlash against it. I don't know if you saw this interview where Elon Musk is saying that he thinks the downfall of Western civilization will be empathy. That's not something I had on my bingo card for where I thought things were going. I mean, it's certainly obvious with what's happening in the world that we're not being empathetic enough. But this sort of overt criticism of the idea of considering what other people think and caring what other people think is just not what I would have predicted.
- [07:49]
C
Yeah.
- [07:49]
A
Particularly from a successful business person. Because at the core, like, how can you sell things to people if you have no theory of mind of what's.
- [07:59]
C
I mean, existing over there? It's interesting. I. I just saw a clip. It just came up on my feed of you on the Daily Show.
- [08:05]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [08:07]
C
And what you said, I 100% agree with. It is objectively true that he is smart.
- [08:12]
A
Yeah.
- [08:13]
C
And yet it's a stupid thing to say. To hear someone say something that it feels so beyond anything I can even conceive as being.
- [08:22]
A
Well, it's kind of stupid on two levels. Right. It's objectively stupid. And then even if it is your
- [08:27]
C
opinion to say, like, this is something I'm gonna say out loud.
- [08:29]
A
Yeah, exactly. That's kind of what one of the things empathy prevents you from doing is voicing all your true thoughts.
- [08:37]
C
Yes.
- [08:38]
A
Until you've either worked them out or they're thinking about the context in which you're saying.
- [08:45]
C
Yeah. Although it's interesting to think of this idea that we probably need people who have no empathy in order to have some of the more remarkable innovations that happen in society. Like those that care so little about others that they're focused entirely on the thing they're building. I mean, probably some of the greatest innovations have come from people who lack empathy entirely. That said, as a culture, we need to celebrate the idea of empathy, because absent it, I don't think we're ever gonna be moving wholly in the right direction.
- [09:20]
A
Yeah. Although, like, do you know what I
- [09:22]
C
mean when I said that?
- [09:22]
A
I mean, part of being a technologist, let's say, or an inventor, is like, I'm fascinated with this. I'm gonna make this. I'm not gonna be thinking 15 steps ahead about what this means for three generations from now. Or, like, how can you invent, say, military technology if all you're thinking about is, like, the potential victims of said military. How can you send people into space?
- [09:45]
C
Yes.
- [09:46]
A
If you're crippled by your sense of, like, well, what about their families? Like, there are certain professions that require you turning off or turning down a little bit of your empathy. But I would argue, like, at A basic level when you make things for, like. Sure, he is a technologist, but he also makes cars that people want.
- [10:06]
C
Yes.
- [10:07]
A
And. And he has to sell them to them for, like, it's one of the biggest purchases they'll make in their life. If you can't conceive of what people want, what people like, how they'll. They'll interpret certain things, you end up making massive strategic blunders, the cyber truck being one.
- [10:22]
C
Yeah.
- [10:22]
A
But you also. It's as if he didn't conceive of, like, politicizing himself, having a negative impact on the sort of, like, California.
- [10:34]
C
Well, that's an entirely different. Yes, yes. No, no, no. Listen. My. Everything I believe in is centered around the idea that empathy is the greatest superpower one can have.
- [10:43]
A
Right.
- [10:43]
C
One of the things I think of. Because hospitality is not just about how you serve, it's how you lead. And the idea of surrounding yourselves with people who are not all the same, but their respective superpowers complement one another's. Right. And on my team, I always want to have someone who is a driver, who is so focused on excellence, they don't care about what they break along the way. I don't want that person to be in, to be clear, but I want that person's influence in the room. And Elon's power is grown to the point where I actually would prefer he is empathetic. But my point is that it takes all types to move us in the right direction.
- [11:22]
A
The idea of, like, oh, to be great, you have to turn off empathy or you have to close down. And, like, I mean, I think the restaurant industry is a fascinating example of, like, some people who either make that bargain or buy into that assumption. Who's the chef that just.
- [11:38]
C
Rene Redzepi.
- [11:39]
A
Yeah. At noma. Right? It's Noma.
- [11:41]
C
Yeah.
- [11:42]
A
He probably thought that was necessary. And then you read about it, and you're like, what are you talking about? This seems insane. What does this have to do with cooking food? Like, taking someone out back and humiliating them? I think I was reading, like, physically abusing them on top of the humiliation. So what is that? Why do people think that that is part of succeeding in any industry? But it seems like food, particularly.
- [12:04]
C
There's a chef named Sean Brock. Do you know that?
- [12:06]
A
No.
- [12:07]
C
He is, like, the great. One of the great chefs of the South. So really celebrating Appalachia and the food and the ingredients and all that stuff. He had a restaurant in Charleston and now in Nashville, and he just opened a pizza place. That's not what he has been cooking for a long time. But during COVID I think he started making pizza as a hobby and got obsessed with it and opened a pizza place in Nashville. And when he posted about it, the caption I loved, he said, obsession is a beautiful thing when you can grab it by the tail, like, when you can control it, when you can, like, rein it in. And I think there are those that become so obsessed that they just lose control along the way. And I don't think it is that they are bad people. I think that they just lost their way along the way.
- [12:57]
A
Well, they stopped thinking of the people they're working with as people, and they see them as tools or ingredients in the same way that they don't have a lot of thought about the knife they're using or the.
- [13:06]
C
I think they just became so maniacally focused on achieving this goal that they stopped thinking about anything except for that, not realizing that if you don't genuinely care and invest in the people that are helping you achieve it, you're never gonna take it as far as you could.
- [13:25]
A
And it seems like it's pretty hard to partially turn off your empathy. So you're like, hey, I exploit these people in the back of the house, yes. But I actually genuine, deeply care about the people sitting in the front of house. Like, no. I think at some level, you start to see everyone as a tool, everyone as a means to an end, everyone as expendable, everyone as a commodity, and then ultimately, it blows up.
- [13:50]
C
Well, that's why. I mean, and this is not just limited to restaurants. I think you see it in a lot of places. But the restaurant example is that this is kind of starting to go away a little bit. But there were restaurants where you'd go into. And it was almost like you were there to, like, kneel down at the altar of the chef. Right? There was a restaurant once I went to, and on the menu, it said, we don't change our dishes. If you have an allergy, don't bother telling us. It's one of the things, I think there are restaurants that believe the customer is always right. I actually don't believe that to be true. And there are restaurants that would say, the chef is always right. You are there to experience their genius. Each of those is a monologue. And I actually think hospitality, any meaningful relationship, it's a dialogue. It's somewhere in between those two.
- [14:37]
A
Well, it's fundamentally not just about you, or you wouldn't have turned it into a restaurant. You see this with authors, too. They're like, I'm making this just for me. I don't care what the audience thinks. It's like, so why'd you put the covers? You know, like, you did a lot of other stuff that had nothing to do with the project that was hard and took longer and was a distraction. Like, if you really were the pure artist that you're saying, you'd put it in a drawer. Yeah, like, you do care.
- [15:03]
C
Just go to your living room and read it once in a while.
- [15:05]
A
Just think about it. Like, why even put it into. Why even. Why even write it? Just let it exist perfectly up here. So it's like, if you actually only cared about your. Your the genius of the food, like, you just cook for yourself or your family. Like, why. Why did you put it in this high traffic location in Manhattan?
- [15:22]
C
Yes.
- [15:23]
A
Like, and why do you open the doors and you let people in, hire
- [15:25]
C
all the people and do all the stuff?
- [15:26]
A
At some level you do understand, it's almost like this kind of, like, defense mechanism of, like. But I'm not gonna take you into account in any real way, because then there's, like, a vulnerability. And then you have some say over whether I did a good job or not.
- [15:41]
C
But I think that mounts over time. Like, you open whatever business, you write a book, you open a restaurant. You do it perhaps rooted in all of the right intentions. And then you start to succeed, and then people start telling you how amazing you are. And then one day you start to believe them to the point that it changes the very foundation of what you're doing.
- [16:03]
A
Well, you get away with it.
- [16:04]
C
Yeah, that's the crazy.
- [16:05]
A
The NOMA thing was crazy because he was obviously so famous and so well liked. And then, like, lots of people experience whatever that, like, sort of firing line scene that's in that New York Times piece where he took the guy outside, and then everyone took turns screaming at him or hitting him. I forget what it was exactly, but you're just like, first off, like, you thought this was okay, and then everyone else at some level thought it was okay. Because it's not like this New York Times piece is coming out the day after it happened. Like, there's a world in which everyone's like, I guess this is just how it is. And, like, it's insane when you see it written down. And yet all these different people at different levels were participating in a culture that said, like, this is okay.
- [16:47]
C
This is normal, which exists in so many places, of course. I mean, one of the things that I so firmly believe is that if you don't have at least one, hopefully many more people on your team who you have gotten to know so well that they trust you enough to tell you when you are losing yourself in pursuit of something, you will lose yourself. You need the people on your team that are like, hey, bud, you're not being awesome right now. They need to trust you enough to say it, and you need to trust them enough to believe it when they say it, or at least hear them
- [17:20]
A
sucks or this is a ripoff or this is unethical or anything. Any number of the.
- [17:27]
C
I mean, you can look across pretty much every part of our society right now, and the people that don't have anyone in their lives telling them that they are not being their best selves are the ones that are doing the most damage.
- [17:40]
A
Yes. Yeah. You think you don't want. You don't want an adversarial, you know, investor, or you want your hand. You think you want your handpicked board of directors or secretary of defense fires all the JAG officers and JAG offs. It's like, no, they're there so you don't fuck up. Like, they're annoying and obnoxious at some level, I'm sure, because you have a divergence of interests. Just like, I mean, anyone that talks to a lawyer understands how frustrating. Like, their job is not to tell you.
- [18:10]
C
Yes.
- [18:10]
A
How to get away with what you want to get away with. Their job is to tell you what you might not get away with.
- [18:15]
C
Yes.
- [18:16]
A
That check against check is a really important way that you don't spin off the planet.
- [18:21]
C
That's like a red team in the news. Right. You need a red team on your team. So when it's like, I just don't like this idea for this reason. And by the way, you may still decide you want to do it, but you need to at least be open to the conversation about why you could potentially be wrong.
- [18:35]
A
So I think the problem with empathy is we think it's like, you have it or you don't. It's necessary. It's not. I don't think we think about it as a skill. Talk to me about empathy as like a skill that you cultivate.
- [18:47]
C
I mean, empathy is in many ways synonymous with hospitality. Right. Not entirely, but in many ways. And it's one of the things that I'm kind of screaming from the mountaintops right now is that hospitality, empathy is a craft. It is a muscle you can strengthen, a practice you can pursue in the same way that writing or a sport or cooking is a craft. And it's one thing I think we have not understood for a long time. Even when I was coming up, some of the people that I respected the most would say, hire for hospitality, train for excellence. As if to say, there are those that are hospitable and there are those that aren't. Hire the ones that are and teach them how to be great.
- [19:24]
A
So how do you train for hospitality or train for empathy?
- [19:27]
C
Well, I think it's about training. Even more so, I think it's about inspiring. I look at a lot of companies who have such unbelievably great, robust training programs, and yet training in the absence of inspiration is insufficient, because it doesn't matter how well you know how to do something if you're not inspired to want to do it.
- [19:47]
A
If you don't see it embodied in the people around, it's like it's more of a cultural value than an individual skill.
- [19:55]
C
And so I think you inspire it in a bunch of different ways. One, just through words. I talk so often about the power of a daily huddle with your team and how that is not a time to talk about operational logistics, but rather just to, like a locker room speech from a coach, just to get people fired up about an idea. Because passion is contagious.
- [20:16]
A
Sure.
- [20:17]
C
So words, I think, are so meaningful, showing people what it feels like on the receiving end.
- [20:24]
A
Yeah.
- [20:24]
C
I don't think it's possible to know how to be empathetic or to know how good it feels to express hospitality if you first don't understand how good it feels to be on the receiving side of it. I have this belief system that if there was a law passed tomorrow where every one of us was required by law to be remarkably kind to the people that worked at the dmv, that the DMV would now be one of the happiest places in the world to get it. But, like, if you're never on the receiving end of something, how could you ever be expected to give it?
- [20:53]
A
Sure.
- [20:54]
C
I think feedback, like creating a culture of feedback, is so important. And I'm talking about praise, obviously, celebrating the moments where people do what right looks like so that they now know what right looks like. Doing that in public so that everyone knows. Because also praise is pretty addictive. The more you get, the more you want to receive. But I'm also talking about criticism. So I think if praise is affirmation, criticism is an investment. And I don't think there are very many things someone can do that are more powerful than stepping outside of their comfort zone for long enough to actually invest in someone else's growth right now. That needs to be done thoughtfully. And that's actually one of the things I like talking about the most is the rules of criticism. How to express it in a way that makes it constructive.
- [21:42]
A
Right. It's not screaming at someone how much they suck or how did you screw this up?
- [21:46]
C
No, criticism should never be emotional. It should be done in private. You should be sure you are criticizing the behavior, not the individual. You better be willing to receive it as well.
- [21:57]
A
Sure.
- [21:58]
C
But all of these things, it's about inspiring people to believe in something, showing them what right looks like, being there to celebrate them when they do it well, to hold them accountable when they don't. I don't think I could give you a training manual on empathy. And also just to lead by example.
- [22:14]
A
It feels like one of those virtues that's contagious. Like, it is easy to be empathetic. It's easy to be hospitable when you see it surrounding you. And then it almost becomes something that you're kind of. Not just that you instinctively do, but almost something you're like competitive about. Right. Like in the sense of like, hey, if they did this and that was okay, they didn't get in trouble. In fact, they got praised for going above and beyond. Well, then people are going to take more risks and do more, make an extra effort because they understand that that's what we do here.
- [22:46]
C
I also think when you've done it a couple times and you are on the receiving end of what happens when you do this is a story that I think validates this in 2023. I spoke at the Sundance Film Festival. I don't know if you remember the delays when you traveled that year. We were coming out of COVID It was pretty bad. That flight was really bad. I think my flight was delayed seven hours. I didn't get to the hotel until like four in the morning. And I'm pulling up to the hotel, like desperate to go to sleep, but gearing up for the whole lengthy check in process. It's become my biggest pet peeve when I travel now is how long it takes to check into a hotel, which I think is well intentioned. Oftentimes they're like, hey, we want to show you around the hotel. We want to give you a map. It's hospitality that's just happening to you, not for you.
- [23:32]
A
Yes.
- [23:33]
C
But when I walk in, there's just one guy in the lobby. His name is Oscar. He's the overnight manager. And he's standing there, arm outstretched, holding my Room key. And he goes, Mr. Gudera, you must be exhausted. Here's your key. Just go get some sleep. We'll check you in in the morning. Wow. Small gesture. Unbelievably.
- [23:50]
A
Actually thought about what it was like to be you.
- [23:53]
C
Well, hold on, hold on. Hold on a second. So I go upstairs, fall right asleep the next morning. I've never been more excited to check into a hotel. I run downstairs, check in, I find the general manager. I was like, dude, Oscar is unbelievable. You're never gonna guess. We did. Oscar's great. That had nothing to do with Oscar. I said, what are you talking about? He goes, the delays here have been bad. A couple months ago, we got together as a team. We said, how can we systemize some graciousness into that moment for people? That's what they came up with. If you got there after two in the morning, they gave you the key, they let you check in the following day. He goes on to say, oscar is actually not very hospitable. And I was like, wait, what are you talking about? He goes, sorry, Oscar was not very hospitable when we started it.
- [24:33]
A
Yeah.
- [24:33]
C
Here's the thing. When Oskar did that for me, he wasn't going above and beyond for me.
- [24:38]
A
That was. He was falling to the basic level of the process.
- [24:41]
C
He's following the system that they designed. But every time he did it, he bore witness to appreciation from people. He got addicted to how that made him feel.
- [24:51]
A
Right.
- [24:52]
C
And started finding more and more ways to feel it again.
- [24:55]
A
Right. The empathy is there in the process of thinking what it is like to be the traveler at that time. They do not want to hear about the. The resort features or want to go to bed. Yes, exactly.
- [25:08]
C
But I think my point in sharing that is the GM thought he was not hospitable. They did this program. Oscar loved how it made him feel so much, he started finding more creative ways to feel it again. I think everybody has this in them. They just need someone who's willing to do something to inspire it out of them.
- [25:26]
A
Well, it's also, what is your process? What's your system optimizing for?
- [25:29]
C
And I think a system can inspire
- [25:31]
A
someone you can optimize for thinking about what is actually happening with the person and then try to set basic procedures that meet that, as opposed to retaining systems or processes that are effectively in opposition to that.
- [25:49]
C
Yeah, it's actually something I was thinking about leading up to this. I was listening to some of your stuff over the last week, and here's my question. One of the Things I say often, and it has the added benefit of being true, is that there are few things more energizing for me than when I see the look on someone else's face when they've received a gift I've just given them. Like, I love giving gifts, and most of that is just because I love the act of giving. But I'd be lying if the reaction doesn't fill me up.
- [26:19]
A
Yeah.
- [26:20]
C
How does that square with your work?
- [26:23]
A
How so? What do you think the conflict?
- [26:25]
C
Is the reaction contributing to my contentment?
- [26:31]
A
Well, it's interesting. I'll have to. Let's see if we have a copy. But Seneca wrote this whole essay on. Sometimes it's translated on giving, sometimes it's translated on benefits.
- [26:40]
C
Okay.
- [26:41]
A
I think the Stoics would say it's actually not selfish to think about it your way. Like you're saying, like, hey, I am doing this because I. I want to do it for you.
- [26:50]
C
Yes.
- [26:50]
A
Whether you fall down in gratitude to me or acknowledge it or whatever.
- [26:55]
C
Yes.
- [26:55]
A
Is like, that's on you. But like, I like being this person, and it's good for me to be this generous, kind, empathetic, service oriented person. The problem is the vulnerability is if you do it to be liked.
- [27:10]
C
Yes.
- [27:10]
A
Or to be celebrated or appreciated. The point is to do it because it's good for you and because you like doing it.
- [27:17]
C
But the question is this. You do it because it's good for you. You like doing it. It is your passion in allowing the reaction to energize you, in allowing the reaction to bring you.
- [27:29]
A
I don't think there's any problem with that. I think the. I say this all the time. This is one of my, I think, few additions to stoicism. In New Orleans. They have this word lagniappe. You know that word?
- [27:39]
C
Yes.
- [27:40]
A
It basically means, like the 13th donut. It's like the baker makes the 12 donuts and then they're like, what do I do with this one? And you throw it in the box. I think about it this way. When it's like you order a smoothie and the person miscalculates, you either watch them throw the rest of it away, or they give you a little extra cup or they give you a larger one. Right. Like, what do you do with the extra? That act of generosity or benefit? I think about what you get back from other people or the recognition of the celebration as the lagniappe as the extra. Do I love hearing that my books have changed people's lives? Do I love hearing the sales Figures. Do I cash the royalty checks?
- [28:17]
C
Of course.
- [28:18]
A
All of the above, right?
- [28:19]
C
Yeah.
- [28:20]
A
But is that what my sense of success was dependent on? Is that why, what I was motivated by, if I didn't get it, would I be crushed or resentful? Like, so I think if you're thinking about it as extra, yeah, that's great. If it's energizing, great. If it's your fuel, that's a problem.
- [28:38]
C
Yeah. If I did something for someone else and I didn't get the reaction I expected to or hoped to, I would still be happy that I'd done it.
- [28:48]
A
The vulnerability the stoics are trying to avoid is needing the thing that's not in your control. So, like, does not getting it deplete you? Right. Does not getting the Michelin star or the celebration or being included in this list, does that aggrieve you? Does it make you want to throw in the towel? All that is in a world where we don't control what happens and also where things are unfair and often rigged, and there's a delay between recognizing greatness, all of those things, that's a tough way to go through life because you are setting yourself up to be disappointed and frustrated a lot. That's kind of how I think about it.
- [29:29]
C
One of my dad's quotes that has been a very big part of my life is, adversity is a terrible thing to waste.
- [29:35]
A
That's like the definition of stoic philosophy. That's what the obstacle is the way means. Right? Is like, what do you. You didn't control that it happened. It did happen. What are you going to do about it? How are you going to use it?
- [29:46]
C
The one thing, though, as a leader, if you get to the point where you have really mastered these ideas, the likelihood is that the people on your team all have. Not sure. When I talk about adversity as a terrible thing to waste, I realized a year and a half after the book came out that I was perhaps leading people in the wrong direction because I wasn't including one important piece of. I'd always say you cannot control what life throws at you. You can control how you react to those moments, what you learn from them, how you allow them to fuel your competitiveness, all this stuff. And then I heard a couple stories where a leader of a team, they had a big goal or something and they failed, and the leader went right into cheerleader mode. Like, guys, let's not waste this. Da, da, da, da, da, da. And I think they were missing a crucial step. And in doing so, losing the trust of their people, which I believe you need to give yourself a measure of time to sit in the disappointment with the people that are following you, because they feel it and they want to know that you feel what they feel in those moments.
- [30:54]
A
There's actually a story I added to the 10 year anniversary edition of the Obstacles Away Hemingway. His wife is traveling to meet him. Her job was to grab all of his writings and bring it. He was gonna show it to this editor in France. She packs up all this stuff, you know, his whole career up until this point, puts it in briefcase, gets on a train, gets off the train to grab something at a station, forgets she loses everything he's ever written. And there's a famous letter, this makes my heart hurt. There's a famous letter where he's writing to Ezra Pound and he's like, don't tell me this is all for the best. And then I think the operative line is, he says, I'm not there yet.
- [31:32]
C
Yes.
- [31:32]
A
But within a few months, he's writing again. And he looks back. He ends up writing a story about a writer who loses all their writing. And this sort of Hemingway style comes, incidentally from like, burning the boats behind them. Not intentionally, but I do think it's important that we appreciate that transitional space. The idea of, like, your friend comes to you and you have cancer and then you go like, amor Fatih. Love this. I would just never fucking do that. And in fact, one of the weird things about writing about stoic philosophies, and I end up hearing from people who've just been through unimaginable things or are going through unimaginable things, and they sort of come to me to ask for, like, thought, and I'm like, I'm just not who you should talk to. Like, I. I am not going to pretend that I know anything about this.
- [32:23]
C
Yes.
- [32:23]
A
Because it's easy to just go, yeah, what are you going to do about it? Or, you know, at some level, they're kind of like empty platitudes and in fact, really dismissive of the reality of what that person is going through. And that doesn't mean this stuff on the other side of it isn't true.
- [32:38]
C
No, it is.
- [32:39]
A
And they can't work themselves there. But hearing the bumper sticker from you is not gonna get them there. It takes some time.
- [32:47]
C
And I think it's not only healthy, but appropriate to just give yourself the grace to fully feel the weight of whatever disappointment you've just experienced and then say, okay.
- [33:01]
A
Grief is a great example of this. Right. Like, if I died, I would feel weird if my family was not sad. Right. I would hope that I had a big enough presence and I was loved enough that they were sad about this. If they were still devastated a year later or two years later, if the mere thought of my name brought them to tears, I'd be like, guys, you're thinking about this all wrong. This isn't what I want. This is actually saying the opposite of what I think you think it's saying. And so it's like, when you lose someone, it should make. You said, it should be devastating. There should be a giant hole in your heart. But at some point, you transition from that to appreciation and gratitude. And I interviewed this guy. Do you know who David Kessler is?
- [33:43]
C
No.
- [33:44]
A
He worked with Kubler Ross on, like, the five stages of.
- [33:47]
C
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:48]
A
And he. He added a sixth stage. And the sixth stage is meaning, like, how do you have. And this came out of the loss of his son. Overdosed. And it's like he.
- [33:58]
C
After acceptance.
- [33:59]
A
Yeah. He basically had this sort of, like, exercise, mental exercise, was thinking about his son. And it's like his son is saying to him, this is what I remember. Like, did me dying ruin your life? You know, like, I wouldn't want that. But he's like, did me dying help you help other people? So what do you take? But, like, the idea of saying that to the person at the funeral is obscene.
- [34:24]
C
Yes.
- [34:24]
A
So it's that transitionary space. So, yeah, you can be the leader who encourages and inspires and channels people towards productive uses of this. But you also have to go like, dude, we just got our asses kicked in the Super Bowl. I'll talk to you guys in two weeks.
- [34:43]
C
By the way, all of that circles back to empathy.
- [34:45]
A
Sure.
- [34:46]
C
It's actually knowing what people are feeling more likely than not. Just giving yourself the grace to feel it yourself.
- [34:53]
A
Yeah. And just because you have decided not to feel it doesn't mean.
- [34:56]
C
Or just because you're ready to start responding to it, that doesn't mean everyone else is. And, like, reading the room, giving yourself time, and then making that choice.
- [35:04]
A
You had some other mottos. Because I like. I like. Of course, you sent, like, an amazing package with the new book, but I thought there's this one also very sto. If the one from your father's stoicism. Did you know that this was basically the favorite motto of the first emperor of Rome?
- [35:20]
C
No way.
- [35:21]
A
Yeah. Slow down to speed up. So the motto of Octavian who becomes Augustus is festina lente which means make haste slowly.
- [35:30]
C
Whoa. I love that.
- [35:32]
A
Yes.
- [35:33]
C
When I talk about slow down to speed up, there's kind of a couple different ways it could be interpreted. One, just in the busyness of life, we always used to say, whatever, measure twice, cut once in the kitchen. Right. Like that, kind of just like slow down a little bit. But more importantly, one of the things at the core of unreasonable hospitality is just being present.
- [35:54]
A
Yeah.
- [35:55]
C
Actually focusing so much on the one person in front of you right now, for me, it is you that for the next however many minutes we're together, I am not caring about anyone else in the world and I'm not thinking about anything else I need to do. And these days I think that's becoming hard even for the best of us to do consistently.
- [36:13]
A
Well, do you know the military version of this one?
- [36:16]
C
No.
- [36:16]
A
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. So it's like if you've ever hunted, you've ever done anything where like, speed is of the. You're like, it's when you're rushing, your movements aren't smooth, you catch on things, you. You screw up. And so it is this idea of like slow it down and do it well.
- [36:32]
C
Yes.
- [36:32]
A
And doing it well is fast.
- [36:34]
C
Yes. And that, I think is how it applies to excellence or like achieving the desired result. I think when I talk about just like presence, about just like letting. Putting the world on pause for long enough, you can actually see the person across the table from you. I could still have a good interview with you and be a little distracted, but I'm not going to feel as connected to you at the end of it or I'm probably not going to hear everything you're saying. I think in hospitality, in relationships with people, being present and slowing down is one of the best ways to accelerate connection.
- [37:12]
A
There's a line in Meditations where Marx Willis is saying, concentrate like a Roman and do this thing in front of you as if it is the last thing you are doing in your life. And like, so doing this thing as if it's the last email you send, the last morning meeting, the last time you cook this thing, the last time you carry the plates out, the last time you do the dishes, you know, whatever, big or small, like doing it as if it matters.
- [37:34]
C
The last conversation you're ever going to have. Yeah.
- [37:36]
A
Like savor it. And then also don't half ass it. Like you don't get to do another thing. So like, take your time.
- [37:42]
C
Yeah. You know, this is it.
- [37:44]
A
Yes. Is a good way to actually do things well. And, and Ironically, you end up doing them pretty quickly too. Like you. You do them as well as they could be done, which is not much longer than it needs to be.
- [37:58]
C
Yeah. And you might. I mean, maybe you're gonna do a few less things in the day.
- [38:02]
A
What do you think about the tension? Cause I actually have the Thomas Keller line in the office. I'll show it to you upstairs, which I borrowed from him. A sense of urgency. So how do you balance a sense of urgency with slow down to speed up?
- [38:16]
C
Well, I think it doesn't mean that once you're done doing this thing that you just go take a nap on the couch. Right. Then you move on to the next task and you keep on going. I think the other way I think about this is I really care about being on time. It drives me crazy and used to even more to be late to a meeting. And someone I worked with was always late to meetings. And that really drove me crazy. Cause oftentimes we were together in the meeting. So him being late meant that I was going to be late. But I realized that there was something virtuous about his approach. The reason he was late was because he was so focused on the person he was meeting with just before.
- [38:57]
A
Yeah.
- [38:57]
C
Whereas me, I would be distracted for the last 10 minutes of one meeting because I was so fearful of being late to the next. And this idea that I'd rather be. Now, these days, I'd rather be 5 minutes late to my 2 o' clock and be present with the 1 o' clock until the last moment we are together. And so that doesn't mean I don't have a sense of urgency now. The moment that meeting is over, I'm getting right into the next one. I'm going to be fully focused on you. But I would imagine most people would have the same answer, that they would rather me be five minutes late to the meeting with them if I'm going to be 100% present with them the entire time we were together.
- [39:35]
A
Yeah, it's in disciplines Destiny. I had two chapters. I did a chapter on having a sense of urgency, like sort of hustle and work quickly and whatever. And then I had a chapter on Festina Lentic because I think they're. It's not that they're in tension with each other, or maybe they are. They balance each other out. Like you can't be the guy that jogs to first base because you don't care that much. And at the same time, if you're running around recklessly or irresponsibly doing Some other activity, you're not going to do it well, and you're going to have to do it again.
- [40:07]
C
You need to run fast to first base, and you also need to wait for your pitch.
- [40:10]
A
Yes, right, right, right. You have to have pitch discipline. But then once you make connection with the ball, you go like, hell.
- [40:17]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [40:18]
A
But the. The idea of, like, that perfectionism sometimes being a kind of paralysis, and then also that also, like being too fast as an excuse for sloppiness. The virtue's somewhere between the two extremes.
- [40:36]
C
Yeah. I think. Well, I think the success comes because of the tension.
- [40:40]
A
Yes.
- [40:40]
C
Not in spite of it.
- [40:41]
A
Yeah.
- [40:42]
C
I mean, it's like anything. If I'm at a restaurant and I'm gonna wait 30 minutes for a perfectly cooked entree versus 22 minutes for one that tastes like crap, obviously I'd rather wait 30 minutes.
- [40:54]
A
But if you are sitting in the waiting area and you can see that your table is ready and they haven't
- [41:00]
C
got you there, or that someone's gotten up and no one has actually busted and reset, it's like, hey, guys, get out to the table and reset that table as soon as possible.
- [41:08]
A
That's one of the ways I, like, I have a sense of urgency, but the thing I say to people on my team is, like, start the clock. Like the part of it that is in your control. It's going to take 12 minutes to cook this steak. Right. That is unchanging. But if you waste three minutes getting started cooking the steak, you've now made it take 15 minutes. And you tell yourself, hey, it takes what it takes. But it didn't take that three minutes of that was in your control.
- [41:32]
C
Yes.
- [41:33]
A
And so it's like, yeah, look, you don't control how long the diners take once they sit down to when they leave. That's not up to you. But if you don't turn the table over the second they leave, you can
- [41:43]
C
control how long it takes before you greet them the moment they sit down. One of the things we'd always say is in a restaurant. This happens in a lot of restaurants. If you sit down at 5:30, like the first seating, and you watch how the staff moves through the room and then compare that to how quickly they're moving through the room at 8:30, 5:30, they're moving far too slowly. And at 8:30, they're effectively running around the room.
- [42:08]
A
Right.
- [42:08]
C
And so our whole thing, I would say it many, many nights in pre meal is start moving the same speed, you will be moving in three hours and effectively you end up splitting the difference. You're moving more quickly at the beginning
- [42:20]
A
of the day, what's the pace and how do you have the discipline to stay at the pace even when there's not press and then when there's too much pressure?
- [42:26]
C
Yes. And by the way, when you do that, it's less likely that there ever will be too much pressure because you're staying on top of it from the beginning. The added benefit is also in a restaurant, and I think this applies to other environments, when the people start to speed up, that's when as a customer, you feel like things are going off the rails. If they're always moving at the same pace, you think that things are always in control, even in the moments where they might not be.
- [42:51]
A
And that's what Festina Alente is. It's the sense of setting the pace as opposed to being hurried or not hurried. Like you're, like I'm, I'm deciding the speed. Like as a runner, you learn this. It's like you have to be running at the pace you set for yourself. And if there's people pressuring you, you can't let that rush you because they could be running at a different pace, they could not know what they're doing. And conversely, just because there's nobody behind you doesn't mean you take your foot off the gas. Can you be sort of self regulating about the speed that you're operating on, independent of the environment?
- [43:29]
C
Yeah. The situation does not drive your actions.
- [43:32]
A
Yes. I just heard this stat that shocked me, given that I hear from the sales staff at my publisher quite a bit. The stat is sales teams spend about 50% of their time on admin work instead of selling relationship building, closing deals, which means they're not selling right. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Pipedrive. It's a simple, intelligent CRM tool for small and medium businesses. Pipedrive was built from the ground up to strip away that manual work, that stuff that's wasting your time, taking your sales team away from doing the thing you pay them to do, which is sell stuff. They've got smart automations to handle repetitive tasks, and you can even customize these automations to fit your unique sales process. Plus, they've got AI features that will analyze your pipeline, flag stall deals, surface what needs attention, and tell your team what to do next without them having to go look for it. Switch to a CRM built by salespeople for salespeople and join over the 100,000 companies already using Pipedrive. And right now when you use our link, you'll get a 30 day free trial. No credit card or payment needed. Just head over to pipedrive.com stoic to get started. That's pipedrive.com stoic to be up and running in minutes. Maybe you've been hearing the buzz about live shopping lately. I know I have. And it makes sense. Like, people are already on their phones, they're hanging out, they're looking for stuff to do. So why wouldn't business want to meet people where they're at? If you're hoping for people to find your listing or waiting for them to walk into your store, I know a little bit about that. You're setting yourself up for disappointment. On whatnot, you can go live and sell directly to people in real time. They see what you've got, they ask questions, and they buy. And they keep coming back. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform. Whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies, sellers are building real thriving businesses on whatnot. Whatnot. Buyers spend more than an hour a day on the app. And they're not just browsing. They're bidding and buying and coming back so you can go live, show off your projects, and turn that into real income. People selling on whatnot sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. And that's because you're not just listing products. You're building real connections with buyers. For a limited time, Whatnot will match your first $150 sold in the first month. You just got to visit whatnot.comsell to start selling. W H A T N O T.com sell whatnot.com sell album. I was surprised you didn't have a card on this one because it's one of my favorites. And you, you do have it in the Journal. How you do anything is how you do everything. Oh, and you were talking another Thomas Keller one, which I loved that when they use masking tape to label, like dishes or supplies or whatever, they have to cut it with scissors. It shouldn't matter at all. Just masking tape is designed to be torn easily. But for some reason, he's insisting that you cut it. Why is that?
- [46:24]
C
I mean, in their kitchens. And we copied it. You'd cut the masking tape. In my dining room, we would put. Do you know where the charger is? No, charger is the plate that's on the table in a fine dining restaurant already when you sit down, which means that's a part of setting the table in the beginning of service before anyone arrives. And In a nice restaurant, you may or may not be someone that does this. People will pick up the plate to see who made it. They're like, oh, my gosh, I like this plate. Who made. And so we would set the chargers so that if I ever picked it up like this, I don't know how to describe that for people not watching, but the logo would be facing me perfectly.
- [47:02]
A
Right.
- [47:03]
C
Which meant that you look at it and then you place it down. Now, let's just break this down for a moment. How many people are actually going to pick up the plate? Maybe 5%. How many people are going to pick up the plate exactly like that?
- [47:16]
A
And you're saving them.
- [47:17]
C
Yeah, maybe 5%. How many people who pick up the plate and pick it up in the way that we imagined that they would pick it up are even going to notice that the logo is facing you perfectly? Maybe 5%. So an extraordinary amount of energy.
- [47:29]
A
And then appreciate it.
- [47:30]
C
That's my point.
- [47:31]
A
0%.
- [47:31]
C
Basically.
- [47:31]
A
0%.
- [47:32]
C
A fraction of a fraction of a fraction. It's not for them. I think that it's not dissimilar to what we were just saying about you begin moving at the pace you want to move. It's about setting an excellence mindset in the room the moment people are setting the tables, and that that pursuit of excellence carries through the entire night. I think anytime as a leader, you can create mandated practices at the beginning of a day that just shift people into an excellence mindset that always pays dividends throughout the entirety of the day. And the same is true in cutting the masking tape. That is something you do at the beginning of your shift. And so, yeah, the way you do one thing will be the way you do everything. There are exceptions to this. There are people who have extraordinarily messy offices and somehow have an organized mind, and yet they're few and far between.
- [48:23]
A
Yeah, it's like, aren't the inside of Apple products beautiful? And Steve Jobs said he learned that from his father, who's a carpenter, who said, like, no, the back of the cabinets matters too.
- [48:34]
C
Yes.
- [48:35]
A
And it is interesting, like, you find, like, because I'm not in that. Like, if I was working on a project like woodworking, my workshop would be a mess. You know, it would be a disaster. Cause that's not my craft. I don't care about that profession.
- [48:47]
C
Yes.
- [48:47]
A
But then you meet someone who does, and they're like, no, no, we're gonna have a construction clean come in afterwards. And like, they really like the best ones. The ones you can really Count on the ones that you. That won't screw you over are the ones that care about those little details. Cause it doesn't actually have anything to do with you. It's their respect for the thing. It's like the baseball player that doesn't cheat the game.
- [49:09]
C
Yes, 100%. You know who Tom Sachs is?
- [49:12]
A
Yeah. He's an artist, right?
- [49:13]
C
Yeah. Have you ever seen his, like, it's a video. There's also a little book. I think it's called 11 bullets. No, you got it. You have to get this little booklet. You'll love it. And it's effectively their employee manual. And it's like these rules of what you're required to do if you work in their studio. And one of them is always be nulling. And I don't know the. I'm not sure where the word nulling came from, but basically it means, like, tidy up everything always. Because it. And it's not about, like, is the art going to be better because your desk is well organized? No. What it is is respect this space that we create art within.
- [49:51]
A
Yes. I think it was. Proust had this thing about how the more disciplined you are in the stuff that's not the work, the more extreme and experimental you can be inside the work, which is ultimately where it matters. Right. Like, having the messy studio doesn't help anyone.
- [50:09]
C
But the balance there, like, for me, if I'm gonna, like, start to write, if I'm writing my newsletter or if I'm writing whatever, or doing any sort of creative exercise, I kind of need everything to be perfect before I can focus. And that can be an excuse for procrastination.
- [50:25]
A
Sure. The resistance for you is manifesting in. We'll do all these other things before the conditions are right.
- [50:31]
C
Yeah, exactly. But I need to be care. It's like, bro. Okay, let's calm down a little bit. Like, you can just sit down and write now.
- [50:37]
A
Yes. Yeah. I think the founder of Rolls Royce had this, like, Latin motto on his mantle. And it was like, you know, whatever done rightly, however humble, is noble. And you think about. Oh, yeah, that's why you think about the details that would go into a Rolls Royce. Like, if you do the thing right,
- [50:53]
C
however humble the part of the process is, I say, yes, exactly.
- [50:56]
A
Which actually tied to one of the other ones you had, which is there's nobility in service. Like, anything that you do well, anything that you take seriously, and especially if you do it over and over and over again, it takes on a kind of an element of majesty and grace. Even if it's shining people's shoes or opening car doors or washing the dishes.
- [51:21]
C
I mean, the nobility of service also takes that to a different place, which is, yes, everything you just said is true. And whatever it is that you do, I believe you need to name for yourself why there is importance in. And then if you lead others, you better re articulate that reason, that nobility over and over and over again. Because I don't care how much you like your job, let's name it. Sometimes work sucks.
- [51:49]
A
Yeah.
- [51:50]
C
And if you don't know that there's inherent importance. And I believe you can ascribe nobility and importance to literally everything if you search hard enough for the words.
- [52:00]
A
I'm really glad you said that. Cause it's really easy to take whatever it is that you do and just start to see it as like a bunch of obligations or a birth. Like, I just did this TV thing this morning and so that like a bunch of orders came into the bookstore. And like, so like, that's like hundreds of books that they have to package and send out, right? And so it's like, it can be very easy to be like, ugh, you know, like, this is books that go off the shelf, books that go in the envelope, papers to print out, envelopes to seal, thing to drive down the street to the post office. Right. And the other way to think about it is like, we love these books and now people are going to read them. And like, also, like, this was from a cable news thing I did. Why did these people order the books from us? They did something awesome for us. They, instead of pulling up their phone and ordering it from Amazon, which is easier and faster and cheaper, they did us the service of typing in the name of our bookstore and ordering it from other us. Even though on every one of those
- [53:02]
C
things, credit card and doing all this stuff.
- [53:04]
A
Yeah, exactly. Like, Amazon has their information saved. Amazon is cheaper. Amazon doesn't pay shipping.
- [53:10]
C
Amazon will be there in 30 minutes. They're going to give you a back rub of their.
- [53:14]
A
Exactly. Like, I try to remind people, like, every one of the people that ordered a book from our bookstore online did the least efficient, like, least easy for them option. Like, it's not an act of charity, but it was an act of kindness. Kindness isn't even the Right. It was a. An expression of support.
- [53:33]
C
Yes, right.
- [53:34]
A
Like you have to take that seriously. So when I get upset with my. It's like, hey, guys, I signed this book for this person on Friday afternoon at 2 and by you not packaging it by 4, 15pm that meant that it didn't go in the mail for that person until Monday at 4pm because that's the next shipping one. And so you said to that per. Even if they don't care and they're not going to complain, you said to that person, hey, I'm gonna make you wait for four extra days for no fucking reason. And that. I don't accept that.
- [54:07]
C
I mean, by the way, now we go back to sense of urgency.
- [54:11]
A
Yeah, totally. That's why it's up on the wall. Cause I caught that too many times and I was like, hey, you guys are just thinking you have time, but it's not your time that you're wasting.
- [54:21]
C
Well, urgency, like, with that sort of thing, whether it's even. I'm sure you've experienced this in the same way. The busiest people in my life are always the quickest to respond to a text message.
- [54:29]
A
Yeah. If you wanna respond, send it to a busy person.
- [54:32]
C
I understand that actually being timely in a response or being timely in sending out a book, it just shows that you actually respect the person enough to.
- [54:40]
A
Or that you have your shit together.
- [54:42]
C
But back to the thing before. Yes. Boxing up a ton of books, that's not the fun part of the work. No one took a job at this bookstore because you know what I want to do with my life? I want to tape boxes. Right. And yet, of course, to your point, you need to feel a sense of gratitude in those moments. Because, yeah, someone is supporting you when they could have done something much easier. But also, when I talk about nobility, you could say, we sell books, but it's more than that. You are either selling someone inspiration or education, or simply giving them the gift of putting the world on pause and having an escape in a book that maybe gives them respite from a really difficult moment that they're going through. There's so much more nobility in everything. You could be driving down the street, picking up people's dirty garbage, or you could actually be helping civilization stay alive. Right. And I just think the reframe is necessary in order for us to be able to bring our most fully realized selves the table.
- [55:39]
A
Well, it kind of comes also back to empathy. Like actually thinking about the person on the other end of this exchange. It's not just like, oh, I'm abdicating myself by thinking about them. Actually, what you're getting is some kind of reflected meaning back. Do you serve a plate of calories to people? Or is this like. Like a meal where, like a family comes together, you know, where People got engaged where they're on a graduation trip. Like, are you thinking about the person and what they're bringing to it and what this means to them, or are you thinking about it as, like, a meaningless exchange of monetary value in the middle of a otherwise meaningless life? Yeah.
- [56:21]
C
Don't we all want to do something that is important?
- [56:24]
A
Sure.
- [56:25]
C
And I think just taking the time to identify for yourself why there's importance. And, yes, you need empathy in order to get there.
- [56:30]
A
Yeah. It helps you go, oh, okay. This actually isn't an insignificant, meaningless thing. Like, I'm helping you do a thing that, like, I just had this terrible customer service experience with this doctor thing I was going through, and, like, there was some miscommunication or whatever, and she was like, the person was upset with me, but I was like. Like, did you forget that? Like, I'm a patient. Like, I'm here on a sensitive medical thing, and you're a doctor.
- [56:56]
C
Yes.
- [56:57]
A
There's no version of this where I have an obligation to you. Like, you have an obligation to me. You're a professional. This thing, who deals with this all the time. This is my first time and only time dealing with this thing. And you're frustrated that this, like, miscommunication happened. And so it's like, what you lost is thinking about who I am walking into your office.
- [57:21]
C
And also, why did you decide to do this with your life in the first place? Totally reconnect with that version of you, and it'll help you, I'd imagine, not only be better at this now, but derive a whole lot more pleasure from doing it.
- [57:36]
A
Yes. And then, though, to go to the other thing, which I do think about as stoic, the idea of adversity is a terrible thing to waste. It's not always an economic downturn or, like, a cancer diagnosis or some huge thing. I was like, this woman is totally wrong, and she's being a jerk. And I was like, can I not like what I said to myself as this is happening? I was like, do you think I could get out of this appointment without getting upset? I was like, the thing for me is, like, I'm not going to get upset. I'm, like, totally justified in throwing it back at this person and escalating it potentially. But I'm just like, I'm not going to do that. I was like, I'm just gonna weather whatever this storm is. I'm gonna get the information that I need, and then afterwards, I'm gonna be like, hey, that person was rude. And I was not rude in Return.
- [58:24]
C
Yes, he did.
- [58:25]
A
That's a big win.
- [58:25]
C
Yes.
- [58:26]
A
That's what I got. That was actually the gift that they gave me was that, like, I got a rep in not being reactive and not being a person. I don't want to be, like, at the end, if I was like, fucking. Excuse me. Like, you know, like, what is this? You know? Or what? Like, I wouldn't leave that later and been like. Like, I'm so glad that that happened. Yeah.
- [58:47]
C
You lose and that.
- [58:47]
A
Like, I would feel crappy. Also.
- [58:50]
C
The thing that's been, I think, is so helpful in those moments in leadership, in service, or in just moving through life as this story entails, is something that came from my former boss forever mentor, Danny Meyer. Charitable assumption.
- [59:04]
A
Yes.
- [59:05]
C
Which effectively means give people the benefit of the doubt in that moment. Like, what we would say in the restaurants is when someone comes in and they're acting like a jerk, okay, obviously we're not going to be a jerk back to them. They're in our restaurant. But it is totally reasonable to say this person no longer deserves our greatest hospitality.
- [59:25]
A
Yeah.
- [59:26]
C
The charitable assumption, however, would compel you to look at it in this way. Maybe they're acting like a jerk because on their way to the restaurant, they just heard that their wife was cheating on them or someone in their family died. And maybe the person acting like a jerk actually needs our love right now more than anyone else in the room. Now, sometimes they're just actually a jerk.
- [59:47]
A
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [59:48]
C
But I'd obviously always rather err on the side of assuming the best and being wrong than the alternative. And that's a helpful thing for me in those moments, because maybe the doctor just. Something terrible happened in their lives. And when you think about it like that, it's less of a challenge to be like, you know what? I'm just gonna be nice right now, or just.
- [60:09]
A
I'm just not gonna be not nice. Right. I think, obviously, when you're. When it's in your sort of core element of competency, like it's in your restaurant, it's like, hey, can we give amazing service to a person who doesn't deserve amazing service?
- [60:20]
C
Yes.
- [60:21]
A
I don't necessarily know if you need to go through that in all areas of your life. It's just, to me, like, what the stoics are saying is, like, just don't let an asshole make you an asshole. Like, the win is just not being dragged down to the level. And so it's like, I'm gonna stay. You're here for some reason. I'm not gonna get there. Also, I'm. I'm somehow saying high. It's a high position, but it's like, you're at a 10. And I walked in in a five. Cause it's a totally normal situation. By not getting to a 10, that's a win, I'm just gonna continue being
- [60:50]
C
wherever you are in that moment.
- [60:52]
A
Yeah. And I'm gonna kind of. Honestly, I'm just like, whoa, okay. Like, I. I found myself just saying over and, like, I was like, you know, like, okay, so which model is this? And she's like. And I go like, you know, like, I was like, I just wanna know this so I can. You know. And then I just kept asking the questions I needed to get the information that I needed to do what I was doing, but I didn't need to, like, I don't need to dunk on this person. I don't need to call this person. I don't need to win. And honestly, I don't really care what you're going through to go to the point that empathy, it doesn't have to cripple you. It's like, clearly something is happening, and I hope your family deals with it. But, like, I'm just not gonna. I'm not gonna be a person I don't want to be. Yes, because you're not being the person you want to be.
- [61:35]
C
No, I mean, on the receiving end in customer service, obviously, this is my entire life. And so when I'm on the receiving end of just, like, it drives me nuts how we as an entire culture have seemingly fallen out of love with the words I'm sorry.
- [61:54]
A
Yes.
- [61:55]
C
You know, like, when someone makes it, like, just please say I'm sorry. And if I'm not careful, I will let it really grate me. Or I, in some cases will almost be encouraged to be like, excuse me, you realize you're doing this all wrong. Like, I actually wrote a book about it. And what you're saying is right. Like, whatever you're at, like, it's just giving away your power to totally.
- [62:17]
A
And if that's how you go through life, if you go through life as this kind of open wound, it's going to break you. Do you know what I mean? Also, the funny thing is, I need you to make this right or what it's like, do you, though? Are you going to have a positive experience all the time, everywhere you go? I feel like as I've gotten older or gotten more in control of myself, I try to be better at just, like, this isn't Sometimes shit just sucks. You know what I mean? Like, I shouldn't. That's not the standard I hold myself to. But I think I've gotten better at not expecting perfection or even hospitality for most of the encounters that I have, because that's, like, it's not probably gonna happen. And also the expectation of it sets you up for disappointment and frustration.
- [62:58]
C
I mean, I think one of the greatest things about what I talk about and write about is from a business perspective, it's the greatest competitive advantage you can have.
- [63:08]
A
Totally. It makes you stand out because it
- [63:09]
C
is not the norm. And not only does it make you stand out, but when you invest in relationships, they take a long time to build. And when you build them the right way, they take a very long time to erode. And we've almost become starved for those moments when someone is willing to go above and beyond for you. And so when someone does, gosh, it feels so good in a way, it's
- [63:34]
A
like you think about. You think about what companies spend to buy the naming rights to a stadium or to run these stupid billboards or boring ads, and you go, like, what could you do with $200 million? Imagine, like, imagine what you could do with that. And I don't just mean, like, how many, you know, starving children in Africa could you support? I just mean, like, what kind of. Of how much better could your product be for how many people?
- [64:01]
C
Or just doing cool things for people. I would say every dollar I've ever spent on hospitality has been far more impactful than any dollar I ever spent on marketing. Because when you give people stories to share, they're going to share them over and over and over again. The other example of that, I think the big companies dramatically overspend on nonsense like what you just talked about and dramatically underspend on guest recovery, actually recovering the customers with whom they've messed up. There's all this data. If you come into my business and you have a good time, you're going to talk about it so much. If you come in, you have a bad time, you're going to talk about it a lot more. But if you come in and you have a bad experience and then I do whatever it takes to turn it around, you're going to talk about it the absolute most, like an order of magnitude more than the other two.
- [64:52]
A
It's also so much more effective to expand the business you have with a customer than it is to acquire a new customer. And the problem is, one is much more measurable. Like, it's like, hey, this billboard costs $1,000 and it will get this many
- [65:10]
C
eyeballs over this amount of time. That is very standard conversion rate of people that look at a billboard.
- [65:15]
A
Exactly. But just doing what you do well and growing your release, all that stuff feels a little sort of woo woo and immeasurable and whatever. So it gets neglected.
- [65:26]
C
We get so focused on investing only in the things that we can measure that I think we're under investing on the things that actually have the greatest impact.
- [65:34]
A
Well, and then also the things that matter. Like what? One of the decisions I made with my business is. I was like. I was like, wait, this is what we're spending on, like, Facebook ads? I was like, the net impact of this on society is not positive in any way. Like, no. Right. And then at the end of my life, I'm not going to go like. And I spent cumulatively this much on advertising, and that will live on past me. Right. Like, you're spending a dollar to a dollar 25. Right. And that math is great. And if. If all you care about is numbers, awesome. But I was like, okay, but if I spend a dollar, obviously you're not literally spending a dollar, but let's say it's a $65,000 advertising budget or a $65,000, like, I'm going to hire another copywriter or creator or whatever. I'm going to make more stuff. Like, not only am I actually supporting a human being, which is great, but like, the stuff that we make together exists after we make it exists forever.
- [66:36]
C
If you don't get those Facebook ads, like, what is Zuckerberg like, how is he even affordable?
- [66:40]
A
But it was like, hey, do I want to spend my money on ads or do I spend my stuff on content? That one is creatively fulfilling to make, but then actually delivers value for people. How do you want to think about what you do?
- [66:53]
C
And now it's different for, like, for some people. I remember when I talked to people who were writing their first book, I was like, hey, writing the book is kind of the sprint before the marathon. Because if you write a book and you don't do whatever it takes to get it out into the world, then what was the point of writing it in the first place? And so I think in the beginning, some of that stuff is important, not just for money, but just to get an idea.
- [67:16]
A
Well, I mean, marketing matters. But I'm saying making content is marketing. It's better marketing than, oh, you're saying
- [67:22]
C
like a newsletter or newsletters or videos
- [67:25]
A
or articles, and I want to make stuff. Stuff that's free, by the way, and that people enjoy. And then it brings them into the universe. Like, you know, the basic marketing funnel. Do you want the top of the funnel to be advertising, or do you want the top of the funnel to be stuff that you think is good, that you put out into the world?
- [67:41]
C
No, I'm with you.
- [67:42]
A
So that's what I think about. Speaking of which, you want to go check out the bookstore?
- [67:45]
C
I would love to check out the bookstore.
- [67:46]
A
All right, let's do it. Foreign.
- [67:59]
C
This is the story of the One As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes time away from keeping their arena up and running. That's why he counts on Granger to get everything he needs, from lighting and H Vac parts to plumbing supplies, all in one place. And with fast, dependable delivery, he stocked and ready for the next tip off. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.